AZ 2007 date change

A

archerelk

Guest
I was reading on here that the draw date for Az was changing, but could not find it on azgfd.com. Anyone able to provide some info?
 
Go to AZGFD website and click on Big Game draw. They will start accepting apps in January, deadline in Feb. and draw in March.



It's Bush's fault!!!
 
Keep this quiet or I will never draw.HA I also noticed the general non-resident license is up to 152.75 to get in the bonus point pool.
 
Why waste it on just a bonus point? Why not actually apply for the tag. Someone has to draw, and every year those with little or no points draw some of the best tags.





It's Bush's fault!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-06 AT 08:43PM (MST)[p]It used to be that those with little or no points had a chance to draw the best tags (obviously most AZ units are great). Nonresidents with less than max points didn't draw squat last year for "premium" tags.

If you've got max points you're very very lucky.

Not one w/o max drew an early rifle elk tag, not one drew a strip deer tag,.......

That's right, NO NONRESIDENT drew the strip without max and NO NONRESIDENT will under the current allocations.

If you're going in with less than max points be realistic.....

The new percentage allocation is screwing a lot of nonresidents that think they have a chance without max points.

Especially with licenses now costing over $150.00!!!
 
If you don't like don't play the game. I was on a late elk hunt this year and my friend killed a very large elk. You don't have to have the early tag to have a good hunt.
Jay
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-06 AT 07:22AM (MST)[p]Prism, there were quite a few guys drawn for lesser hunts that didn't have max bonus points. I would encourage you to still apply and maybe you'll get drawn for another hunt in less time while you are building your points. You'll lose your points if drawn but any opportunity to hunt elk is better than no opportunity in my book and you may still kill a real nice elk.
 
It will be of great value for those who are very lucky to draw elk tags to get some scouting in before the season starts if you are a non-resident and resident.During the 2006 season it was tough getting one good scouting trip in before the archery elk opened.I want to thank everyone that helped me out on areas of interest for my buddies archery elk hunt.You know who you are and I hope some day I can return the favor.You did not need to give me any advice but you did.I just hope I can return the favor for those of you who I e-mailed countless times and talked with on the phone many times this made a big difference once we scouted the unit and returned to hunt the unit.You will be more than welcome in my elk camp if and when I draw a permit.
I just cant thank you guys enough for the great information needed to GET-R-DONE.The small window we had to scout and get information for the elk hunt was short so I do think knowing that Lucky applicants who do draw in the future will have time to plan time off work,allow more scouting time before the hunt opens which in return will be that much more a success no matter how you look at it.
 
There are some great deer and elk shot every year on late hunts, archery hunts, lesser units, etc. in Arizona. And a lot of these hunts will be drawn with less than max.

However there are a TON of nonresident hunters that are duped into thinking that they have a chance at a strip tag, early rifle bull tag, shoot even a lot of the archery elk tags WITHOUT max points. It just isn't so with the new allocations.

I agree, PUT IN, but do so knowing what's going on with the draws.

Actually I guess it's in my best interest to say put in for these hunts since I don't have max either........

There will likely be hundreds if not thousands of new applicants this year that apply for the first time thinking they have a shot at a strip tag, early bull tag, etc. That's a lot of $$$$. Not too mention all of the other hunters putting in thinking they have a chance when it's not so. MONEY MONEY MONEY.

I know this is an elk thread and this likely applies more to the deer tags, and who knows maybe if enough of nonresident complain they will change the tag allocations back so we atleast have a chance without max points.

The main reason I started applying for AZ was to hunt the strip one day. I'm now sitting on 9 deer points that cost me over a grand and the strip is now out of question. I guess it pisses me off when agencies change the game plan when a lot of us have soooo much invested.

I'm sitting on the same with elk though and can see a good elk tag soon:)
 
How do you guys know who drew and how many points they had in the various units? I have never seen any stats other than the gross number of first and second choice applicants. I would be very interested to know how many points it takes to be in that max point pool for some of the premium archery elk hunts. It seems that they should at least tell you the number of NR's in the various point pools. For example how many NR's have max points for deer?

I believe that AZ Game and Fish is purposely withholding this info in order to hide the fact that most NR's have no chance to draw the high demand hunts.

I appolagize if I have simply missed the information.
 
goldhunter- the azg$f has a report that you can buy for about $75 if I remember correctly. This report breaks down how many res. vs non-res. and how many points they all had
 
if you think bonus points have anything to do with getting draw your nuts . i know people who get drawn with 9 points clear down to no points . its a joke the bonus point system its set in place to pacify people in to keep putting in thinking they will get drawn.dont put in and someother non res will get the tag . its all about the money for the g&f that little application fee for all those not drawn.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-09-06 AT 01:53PM (MST)[p] >>I know people who get drawn with 9 points clear down to no points .<<

Duh!

That's exactly how it was designed to work -- so everyone at least has opportunity to get drawn. It is NOT a preference point system. In fact, it's no different than a raffle drawing. Bonus points simply get more tickets in the hat, but even the person with one ticket has a chance to have it selected.

The max point set-aside is the same except everyone in it has lots of tickets in the hat. And those that don't get drawn in that pool go right back into the general pool with everyone who doesn't have max points. -TONY
 
Goldhunter,
For $25 you can purchase bonus point report with over 120 pages that gives the breakdown for each hunt number with how many people applied 1st and 2nd choice per number of bonus points, and how many were drawn from each bonus point group. Also gives some draw % calculations. No info on res vs nonres for each hunt, though.

Doug~RR
 
Prism,
I dont know what unit you put in for elk but I am one point in front of you on elk and cant see the light at the end of the tunnel to draw a tag for maybe another 5 years or so and this is for archery elk.I have the same points you do for deer 9 and like you said we wont draw a strip deer tag the way it is now.The only way we may have a chance at it and it would still be a very slim chance would be to take the hunter safety class in Arizona to get a true max points on deer.I still think with a true max on deer I will not draw a strip deer tag in my lifetime but will keep trying now that I have so much invested in bonus points.I know it gets frustrating to say the least but maybe one of these years we will draw a good elk tag and it will pay off big.Who Knows?
 
WARBIRDUM,

I'm thinking about 5 more years for an archery tag as well. So I guess I can see some light at the end of the tunnel. A few of the late hunts are kind of tempting too since I like to glass.

I'm really screwed cause I already have the hunter ed point and I'm still one shy of max:( for deer. I SWEAR I put in the first year, but I don't have any record of it so I'm SOL.

The only saving grace to the AZ situation is that we can put in for multiple animals so the license fee doesn't hurt too bad.

I swear we ought to atleast get a bottle of KY for all of these stinking (raising) license and application fees......

Man am I glad I started building points years ago. I really feel sorry for those just starting to play the game. Thanks Garth!;)
 
Thanks redrabbit and missedagain,

I couldn't find any reference to the report on their web page. Do you have to just call or what?
 
For the 2006 hunt in 13B, there were 234 hunters with max points that applied first choice, 20 applied second choice. Of these 254, 20 were drawn. At the other end of the bonus point spectrum, one person with no points was drawn.

RR
 
I wonder how many of the 234 that did not draw had a second choice and drew that hunt. I would expect a lot of these aplicants to be NR. However, I would think when NR's had no percentage restriction for the draw a couple of years ago, quite a few of the top NR point holder drew (elk).
 
RR,

I imagine you're looking at the report that gives no indication as to resident vs nonresident?

It's my understanding that no nonresidents drew any of the "premium" tags w/o max points.
 
"Not one w/o max drew an early rifle elk tag, not one drew a strip deer tag,.......

That's right, NO NONRESIDENT drew the strip without max and NO NONRESIDENT will under the current allocations."

I'm not saying your a liar, but until I see PROOF that there were not any residents who drew without max points, I will believe that it can/will/does happen. Unfortuneately, I cannot purchase the $75 recap at this time. I know there are those who have it, so why not post it so we can put this matter to rest? Everybody claimed it would happen this way for the 06 draw, but I have yet to see proof of it.
 
Paul,
The Bonus Point report I have does not segregate residents from nonresidents for each hunt number. It does say that there were a total of 233 nonresidents with max points for deer, and 40 were drawn, but it does not say what for which units they applied or were drawn.

Doug~RR
 
not to change the subject, but does anyone know when the 2007 regs will be out?

Also, for those of you with the bonus point report, on the average, how many points is it taking to draw most of the early archery elk hunts. I know it is a bonus point system, but it has basically turned into a modified preference point system, with 20% being held for top point holders.

thanks, bigbulls
 
Prism is right and as time goes on NR without max pnts drawing any decent tags will begin to approach 0.

Simply put AZ IS NOT A BONUS PNT SYSTEM. It is both. This is important and many fail to grasp the math. THE DRAW HAS CHANGED IN RECENT YEARS. It has preference points. Big time.

It used to be that 10% of tags went to max pnt holders. now 20% do, this is A HUGE CHANGE for NR. I developed this theory right when they switched and others have confirmed this, including the guy (I foget his name) who is in charge of the draw in AZ, someone I communicated with about this presented my theory to him and he paused and said, we never thought of that but that is correct.

Here is what is happening and will happen more and more.

NR get 10% of tags. NR obviously accumulate points faster since we make up about half the apps but get 1/10 the tags (thus we build points at least 5 times faster). NR, as a whole, will have more points and most max pnt holders will be NR. Now the drawing starts, max pnts tags are drawn first, NR names keep coming up, over and over, and NR keep getting tags, for many (and soon to be most) hunts NR hit their quota of 10% BEFORE the max pnt drawing is done. Thus unless you have max pnts no tags make it into the draw for everyone else. The fact that 20% of tags go to max pnt holders assures this. 20% is twice the 10% NR get, which therefor allows a large cushion to assure this happens. What I mean is NR only have to draw HALF the max pnt tags, and consider we accumulate pnts 10 times faster (See above) this is nearly assured. The draw did reflect this in 2006 and is documented, not as much and many including myself thought but it will increase. USO lawsuite got a ton of NR tags and bumped NR back down, but we are creeping back up fast.

For those that do not understand this - just because you cannot understand it does not mean it is not right (I get this all the time) please really think about this I am not trying to be cocky but think carefully about this. Also, just because you or your buddy drew a great tag with few points years ago DOES NOT MEAN THIS will keep happening, the draw changed, the 20% allocation to max pnt holders makes a huge difference.

This draw is huge with thousands of apps and as time goes on the odds of this statistic NOT happening drops fast. There will never be a time when NR without max pnts get no tags, but very soon NR without max pnts will draw very very few decent tags.

I wish this were not true and spent a long time trying to disprove this theory but I could not, and no one else could either. If I am not mistaken there are something like 100 NR apps for each NR tag so NR will gather pnts fast.
 
cousmaster you are way off.

I argued this with someone about NV once, I showed the NR with 0 points drew 0 tags, and max pnt holders were 3,000 time more likely to draw I did this comparision for 0-3 pnts and from max down 3 pnts, the difference is huge. NV point system is different.

If you think that 10 points does not mean a better shot at a tag then 0 points then I want to see your high school math grades! Because it means an 11 times better chance!

Also AZ has preference points since max pnt holders get tags.
 
Right on Don V!

The scarry thing for most of us with a bunch of points and not quite max is what's going to happen when more of the boys with max start to put in for the easier to draw areas and drive 100% of the nonresident tags into the max point pool and out of our reach again......

If it wasn't for the elk tag I may have in a few years I think I'd tell AZ to kiss my tail. The money I've spent on bonus points could of gone a long ways towards a guaranteed tag somewhere.

Who knows, I may end up using my points on Coues hunt.

I think it's a crock to take money from people that think they actually have a chance at a tag.

The new system sucks!:(
 
Don,
I'm not saying you are wrong, nor am I saying you are right. All I want is proof that your theory was true. If it is, then G&F should have the proof. Does anybody else have it? If so, please post. It seems funny because once the draw was complete, there were several posts asking who drew what with how many points, and nobody's anwers proved your theory. My friends sister drew an early rifle tag in 9, as a NR. I don't know how many points she had exactly, but I don't think it was max. Again, I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I just would like to see exactly how right or wrong you are. And if you are right, that really sucks bad for the NR hunter.





It's Bush's fault!!!
 
What Don V is saying is correct. In fact this last Saturday Garth Carter was in Phoenix and addressed the commission and made a recommendation that they leave a % of tags available below the max bonus points for the hunts. This has been brought to the commissions attention by many of us that reside here. There is opportunity outside the best hunts w'o the max bonus points at this time per the meeting on Saturday as well.
 
Prism I know the new systems not perfect and we are working on getting that changed. Hopefully we will prevail. In your post above you said it's all about money, money, money and that seems to be true with most anything these days. I have a question for you? Do you have to pay any fees to the states where you film on the video's you produce in addition to your tag fees? Just curious since you seem to do very well at it but yet you feel that's it's unreasonable for the states to charge bonus point fees when they really have no control over the number of applicants that wish to utilize the resource. I think we both would agree that if we had more animals or fewer applicants then the bonus point accumulations and costs would decrease. The reason I ask this is, could it be that the productions you create (which are very nice)and others like you, contribute a little to the traffic congestion problems we all would like to see remedied. I'm not picking on you with this just curious to see what impact you think it may have on the situation. Thank you for your response.
 
AZ needs to be honest with the NR before it takes the rip off money they fork over thinking they are paying for a legitimate shot at drawing a tag
 
If the intent is to let 20% of the tags go to the top pool, why not cap the top pool nonresidents to 20% of the 10% nonresident quota, or 2% of the tags?'Seems like that would be pretty simple to do.

Points systems suck, as the rules change annually, yet you are making a long term investment.
 
I do not have proof and I did hear a lot about guys drawing as NR without max pnts, this is explained in part because of USO lawsuite - it got a lot of NR with a lot of points tags. Also this effect will increase yearly.

I beleive in about 4 more years without changes it will become obvious, but for now I have no proof at all, just theory. However I have not tried to find it, others have and they claim that it happened - obviously not every time but often enough to see the trend. Remember all NR have to do is draw half the max pnts tags, not to hard in a few more years.

I am sorry to come across a little rough, most times I post this guys come back with sarcastic remarks with no logic.

schamlts is right I think AZ needs to at least let the NR know roughly what there odds really are.

If you are a NR just starting and want a good rifle tag I suspect 90% have no clue there odds are far far below 1%, if they knew this they would probably reconsider - thus saving themselves money they are wasting "thinking" they have a chance at drawing, (a chance over 0.1%) and thus give others better odds.

Again several guys checked some and saw this happened, I do not want to speak about what they found because I do not know and did not look much.

As others said AZ simply has to split the max pnt holders out and give 20% of tags to them (2% of total) and this all goes away. I think they should.

Another example is CO NR typically requires almost 2 times as many points to draw tags, and until recently CO gave 40% of tags to NR, AZ gives 1/4 that amount and to make my theory valid NR only need 1 more point!

Anyone with more info please post. Good luck in the draw

DonV Ohio
 
Perhaps G&F should let NR's know if they have no chance at a tag. But as you mentioned above Don, even they didn't know it was going to work like that, so they had no reason to inform anyone about anything. Maybe they'll do it this year, who knows. I can tell you this though, if they don't let people know, or change the process, there will be another lawsuit by another group or outfitter.





It's Bush's fault!!!
 
Don here is my take on this: we are working to get this changed to allow for a lower% of NR from max point pool that would allow some permits to be drawn from general draw.I think we will get this done but there is resistance on the commission. If you are a young guy you may want to put in for the less attractive areas for a while. There are people getting drawn in these hunts currently. If you are not drawn you will be building bonus points during that process.You could get drawn while you are in this mode many do. Then you have an Elk permit and that's not bad in any sense.

If you only want the best we have to offer you're in for a long haul anyway just like a resident (we have THOUSANDS of people that have never had any of these permits) and it most likely will take you 10-12 years or more to draw and even then you may not get a tag. Make sure it's disposable income or you can afford it. You can always change to another unit and get drawn sooner SOME DO and some don't. Think of it as a sheep hunt with much better odds of getting a tag and you will have the right thought process.

Thats the best advice I can give you but all the complaining in the world isn't going to get rid of the bonus points in many states because the resource is too rare and the hunts are highly over subscribed and the departments need the money.If you didn't have bonus points you'd more than likely have $7500.00 NR Elk Tags. So everyone that wants to hunt shares in the cost of management, damage claims, etc. It's also a way for the average guy to defray the costs over a longer period so it's not so expensive. The one thing I always find interesting in this: a guy will pay the bonus points year after year for a sheep knowing full well he may never get drawn, but yet they constantly complain about the same for Elk.
 
S remin, I would think they would have a heck of a time doing so when the same rules apply for sheep! They have stood the test of time and many legal actions over the years. It's a random drawing and there's no guarantee of any tag. That has been challenged in many states over the years and the state has always prevailed. Even Taulman knew he couldn't win on that premise so that's why he came at them the way he did but in the end right prevailed. They just get the laws changed to be able to let the states manage the resource. Hope you have a good draw!
 
Boskee good ideas, I can afford to put in so it is disposable income. As for AZ informing people, the more I think about it the mose I am not sure it is up to them, but at the very least I think it would be nice!

I go for archery elk, in lower end units, some of the easiest hunts to draw. I am even considering late bowhunts. This year (2007) I get my 5 year extra point and i will have 6 points so I can get a low end bow tag very soon.

I am complaining some, I often come across that way, but overall I am thrilled with hunting oppurtunites out west and very very happy with my experiances, draws are tough because hunting is GREAT!

I have been applying all over and after 7 years I am set to start drawings some unreal tags. Well worth the time and effort. Next year I am sure to draw CO 76 elk, and soon after many other good elk tags, mnt goat, moose and sheep eventually, so it will pay off. It is a very good feeling knowing that in the next 10 years I will draw at the very least 10 good tags.

I do feel that way to many guys have the pie in the sky idea that just apply and a little luck will land the early unit 10 rifle elk tag in your pocket your second year, man that is sooo far from reality.
 
Don when I said they complain I didn't mean you. I know that you understand perfectly (sorry my comment may have inferred that). It is what it is and If I had the power to make it better for all of us I would so I could go hunting as well. The only thing we can change is getting the max pool issue resolved and there are quite a few of us working on that for you guys. Hope you all have a great holiday season!!
 
no worries, I was not sure

Boskee does the powers that be in AZ draw think what I predict will happen or did happen in 2006? I am very curious.
 
Don I would say this, your theory is correct. Remember those variables we discussed max Res and NR with same pts, changing selections (over 20% do change hunt types) and attrition all play a part in only max point holders being drawn. One of the guides told me he had a NR that drew a coveted tag and he most certainly didn't have max pts for that unit. He may have put in with a resident who knows but it wasn't the only instance. I think we are still seeing some of the impact from the taulman thing and that's how it's happening but it could be one of the variable instances as well.If everything was constant it would obviouly happen and for the most part it did in the trophy areas. These are isolated instances but then drawing one of those tags is an isolated instance unto itself! That's the best information I can give you.
 
Chris,
What have you proposed to G&F for a change? ie the 10% cap for NR be divided half to top BP holders and half for regular draw? Something like this would seem fairer to me. I believe Utah puts half of the NR tags twards top points holders and half to regular draw- that way all have a chance.

Doug~RR
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-06 AT 09:42AM (MST)[p] Doug,That was exactly what Garth Carter proposed at Saturdays meeting I told them to use 60/40 split 60% going to max when I had a conversations with them earlier in the year. You'd think we were moving mountains on this to get it changed. It will more than likely happen but I have no idea when.
 
>Don here is my take on
>this: we are working to
>get this changed to allow
>for a lower% of NR
>from max point pool that
>would allow some permits to
>be drawn from general draw.>


Who is "we"
 
Boskee thanks, that is the first time I have heard that it really happened.

I remember when this first occured to me, I was floored, it is a big deal, so many guys applying with 0-3 points for good rifle tags as NR - and they have no idea that it is one small step from a miracle for them to draw, like you said it can happen but only in very isolated events, not to mention I bet it never happened with a group NR app.
 
Boskee, Thanks for the info. I have 5 points for most species in Arizona. Question. Can a non resident have any chance to draw a sheep tag with out max points?
 
THe need to correct this problem should be self-evident. Will they need to go through a rules change and public meetings, or what is the process? What was the commission's response to Garth Carter's proposal?

RR
 
well gee schmalts, I guess we should see to it they are all fired and never work in wildlife management again. I'm sure we can find someone who's full time job it would be to find every little teeny weeny detail of what could possibly go wrong with every single rule change.


Unbelievable.






It's Bush's fault!!!
 
Come on schmalts don't you think that may be a little harsh. They had people wanting more tags allocated for those with higher bonus points (mainly NR but quite a few res too) and they tried to do the right thing. Those are the ones that have gone the longest w/o getting drawn and invested the most money in the process. Nothings perfect.
 
"""I told them to use 60/40 split 60% going to max when I had a conversations with them earlier in the year""


If the G&F did this under the scenario that NRs build BPTs faster than residents after a short period of time NR would get 60 % of the tags every year. or atleast 50% of the tags every year?
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-06 AT 01:23PM (MST)[p]]

>Come on schmalts don't you think
>that may be a little
>harsh. .
>Nothings perfect.


No i dont think my words were harsh, just truthfull. If they make a change and regret it one year into it it makes me wonder who is running the show. NR have a lot of money invested in bonus points. You as a residents wouldnt understand that because you dont have to buy a 115$ piece of asswipe every year like most nonres do. Then they change the rules and make it so anyone with less than 6 points pretty much has absolutely no shot at the better tags for a long long time without thinking about the outcome?? No body is perfect, but these guys are getting PAID to do this and anyone with a high school diploma should be able to figure this out, even more so given the fact they have all the point holder data in front of them.... Dont get me wrong, I agree the guys with the most points deserve the most tags , but when you make it that NOBODY with less than max points hasnt a prayer for a majority of even the better archery units they should be up front with it, or tweak the idea, or have done a little number crunching. But to not have enough brains to see this was going to happen???
I suppose everytime you screw up at work you expect your boss to be happy with your performance and not give a harsh word?
Maybe they should hire Garth Carter or Don V to handle this part of the job at the F&G
 
Licese fee increase for 2007 non-resident 152.00. I thought a guy could draw by the time he had 10 points for archery elk but nope looks like I am just getting started.I just hope if and when I do draw the large amounts of money getting points every year is worth the wait.OUCH it is not just Arizona but all states raising prices, this hobby is getting very expensive and tougher to draw good tags.
Good luck to all Arizona applicants in 2007.
 
Just to clarify the "no non-resident will draw the strip tag without max points" my buddy drew the 12AE tag this year with only one point. The worst part was that he didn't even hunt the tag cause he had a moose tag for the Blackfoot res.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-06
>AT 01:23?PM (MST)
>
>]
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>No i dont think my words
>were harsh, just truthfull. If
>they make a change and
>regret it one year into
>it it makes me wonder
>who is running the show.
> NR have a lot
>of money invested in bonus
>points. You as a residents
>wouldnt understand that because you
>dont have to buy a
>115$ piece of asswipe every
>year like most nonres do.
> Then they change the
>rules and make it so
>anyone with less than 6
>points pretty much has absolutely
>no shot at the better
>tags for a long long
>time without thinking about the
>outcome?? No body is
>perfect, but these guys are
>getting PAID to do this
>and anyone with a high
>school diploma should be able
>to figure this out, even
>more so given the fact
>they have all the point
>holder data in front of
>them.... Dont get
>me wrong, I agree the
>guys with the most points
>deserve the most tags ,
>but when you make it
>that NOBODY with less than
>max points hasnt a prayer
>for a majority of even
>the better archery units they
>should be up front with
>it, or tweak the idea,
>or have done a little
>number crunching. But to not
>have enough brains to see
>this was going to happen???
>
> I suppose everytime you
>screw up at work you
>expect your boss to be
>happy with your performance and
>not give a harsh word?
>
> Maybe they should hire
>Garth Carter or Don V
>to handle this part of
>the job at the F&G
>

Whaa a $115 piece of as$wipe whaa........:)
 
Schmalts,
Maybe you should take that $115 piece of asswipe and shove the entire thing up your ass and stay home. We don't want people like you here. What makes you think they will keep it the way it is now that they do know what is going on with it? I guess everybody who works for the G&F should be 100% perfect and not have any imperfections at all. I guess your world is just too perfect for there to be any screw ups. Do you know how elementary your statements sound? Obviously you need to reread some of the above posts, and see where it says they DID NOT KNOW before you say they should have been up front with you. If you don't like how they do their jobs, maybe you should move to AZ and work for them yourself to ensure the perfection that you demand and obviously have in your life. Otherwisee quit bitching so much about something you have no idea what will happen.
 
Whaaaaaa, Boooo Hoooo, i hurt your F&G's feelings....
Get over it crybaby. If you think i am the only that thinks the F&G has it's head up their asses you live in a dream world. I have buddies in AZ as residents that feel just as i do. Why are you so defensive of the F&G?? you one of the incompetent employees?
As far as staying home... Don't worry about it, The F&G will insure that with their intelligent drawing tactics so don't you worry about harsh speaking schmalts coming to AZ to shoot all your critters.
Go have a beer, its a harsh world and sometimes people speak the way it is even if it offends a liberal like you.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-06 AT 06:50PM (MST)[p]





>Whaa a $115 piece of as$wipe
>whaa........:)


See, at least Stan knows a good rippin for fun when he sees it.
Hey Screamin, i am not perfect.. but like you said, lighten up on us imperfect idiots. And as far as shoving 115$ up my ass... no thanks, i wouldn't do what you do either and turn it into a couple dozen gerbils for that same thing. Personally, i would turn it into singles and hit the nudey bar and get lappers.

Besides, are you as retarded as the F&G? If you weren't you would see that the rippin i am giving the F&G is for not having the brains to see the predicament they are in with the NR drawing odds before they made these great changes last year.
Only a liberal would get defensive over someone that points out someone else's mistakes.
 
"Only a liberal would get defensive over someone that points out someone else's mistakes."

Oh OK smalts, you're right, I'm a liberal. Obviously you never read the political posts in the Campfire forum. But whatever you say, cause you know me.







It's Bush's fault!!!
 
>The amazing thing is a entity
>like the AZ F&G had
>not the brains to see
>this before they make rule
>changes??

Maybe they did have the brains to see it would happen this way, and that is exactly what they wanted.
 
Truth be told, if they knew that there would be a population of applicants who had no opportunity to draw, and failed to effectively advise them of it, then they have opened themselves up for another federal lawsuit. All the extra money they earned with their new draw method could end up in legal fees.

AZ either needs to change their allocation method, or advise hunters they don't have a chance. They are willfully accepting hunters money without telling them they have no chance to hunt. They are publishing mis-leading draw odds, and requiring the purchase of a hunting license just to apply.

This one could end very bad for AZ.
 
Archerelk, To date the theory hasn't been proven 100%. There were plenty of folks drawn in hunt units w/o max points and some in the premier hunt units! It's a random drawing not a guaranteed hunt. Remember all those people put in for sheep tags every year and have little to no chance of drawing so legally they are fine. Besides that point has been challenged in many other states and the states always prevailed. It's a limited resource and when you apply you take your chance just like everyone else. By the way for the record there are literally thousands of residents that have never had some of these tags either so that argument won't work. Archer elk if all the states were engaged in this deceptive a practice as you claim they would have lost in courts decades ago when this premise was first challenged. By publishing the draw odds for each hunt unit they are actually disclosing the odds and since it's a random drawing nobody can predict when they're going to be pulled. The maximum point holders are subject to the draw process as well when there are multiple individuals with the same bonus point numbers so it's all done fairly. It's all disclosed up front and you take your chances like everyone else. The fact that there are individuals R & NR on this site and many others posting their success stories shows that the process works as designed and in a fairly unbiased fashion.
 
Valid points. Based on what this thread is discussing, there are actually hunts where a population of non-res have a 0% draw odd, and that is not disclosed. If that is true, then the AZGFD is mis leading consumers, and causing them to incur expense when there is 0% chance of actually receiving a tag. If it were truly random, I would agree completely with you. Based on all the research I have done, the tag allocation takes the randomness out of it. If that is the case, I think AZ is opening themselves up for a class action federal lawsuit.

I am not taking sides. I myself, just like many consumers will continue to apply hoping for the chance. I am simply saying that if what many people in this thread say is accurate, AZ may be in for more legal action.
 
Cite me an example of where a nonresident has an actual 0% odds of drawing a tag. If you're talking about sheep tags that's just about everyones odds but in no case are they zero until the one tag in the unit is drawn, and those are the worst odds in the draw and everyone's odds are exactly the same on that tag. As to the issue that an NR applicant must have max bonus points to draw a tag that hasn't proved to be the case as evidenced by this years draw. Could it happen in the future YES but like I said way up the line it more than likely will be changed before that occurs on an ongoing basis. Archerelk lest not we forget that the Reid bill (FEDERAL) was passed to protect the states rights to allocate tags in whatever manner they want so the allocation rationale would carry little weight.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-06 AT 11:53AM (MST)[p]Boskee is 100% correct. Nothing has been proven. Sure these theories may pan out over time, but as of this past year, the first year of this process, people with less than max points still drew prime tags. Why is it so hard to understand that AZ obviously did not think about this? Some of you are accussing them of being deceptive and just taking your money. THEY DID NOT KNOW. It is really not that hard to understand. They may be involved with another lawsuit, but it will be a waste of time and money. Nobody knows what they plan to do yet about it either, so why don't you guys quit whining so much about it until we see what is going to happen. As of this years results, YOU STILL HAVE A CHANCE to draw a prime tag without max points.

Also, for those legal experts that want to sue G&F, why would they have to disclose this for certain units and not others. If the theory is correct, you will still be able to draw "lesser" units without max points. So for G&F to decipher which units will be drawn without max points doesn't seem like it will hold up in court.





It's Bush's fault!!!
 
Sremim,

Take your head out of your rear. I flat out said that I was not taking sides either way. I simply said that if what was being said in this thread, and many others was correct that AZ was opening themselves up for another lawsuit.

I DID NOT SAY I WOULD LIKE TO FILE A SUIT AGAINST THEM. I DID NOT SAY THEY DID ANYTHING WRONG. TAKE THE TIME TO READ AND UNDERSTAND BEFORE RESPONDING WITH YOUR EMOTIONS WITHOUT THE BENEFIT OF INTELLECT.

I am concerned because having been a resident of AZ for 30 years prior to moving to SD and then TX, AZ is my favorite place to hunt. It seems as though AZ is always smack in the middle of controversy. I just see this as another potential one brewing.

GROW UP - Nobody was attacking you, just getting nervous where all this BS will lead.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-06 AT 11:54AM (MST)[p]"I DID NOT SAY I WOULD LIKE TO FILE A SUIT AGAINST THEM. I DID NOT SAY THEY DID ANYTHING WRONG. TAKE THE TIME TO READ AND UNDERSTAND BEFORE RESPONDING WITH YOUR EMOTIONS WITHOUT THE BENEFIT OF INTELLECT."

Practice what you preach. I never directed this at YOU. Maybe you should grow up a little, as no one was attacking you either. Maybe you should read some of my other posts about this topic, I too said they will probably be involved in a lawsuit.

So again, practice what you preach and:

"TAKE THE TIME TO READ AND UNDERSTAND BEFORE RESPONDING WITH YOUR EMOTIONS WITHOUT THE BENEFIT OF INTELLECT."

Oh, and I edited the "you" and put "those" in the sentence about sueing G&F so I don't hurt your poor little feelings anymore. Happy?



It's Bush's fault!!!
 
Good post BOSKEE! I'm still not convinced that NR's have no chance in certain units.We took a NR out a last year on a Desert sheep hunt, it was his first year applying. I'm not saying I like the 20% pass but that's the way it is for the time being.

There are several states that are just as hard or harder to draw than the AZ premium hunts. Take a look at huntodds.com, you'll see what I mean. Compare AZ top deer unit and say the Henry MT. hunt in UT or the Pauns for that matter.

I have to buy a license in NV and ID just to apply, so AZ isn't the only one. I'm not saying we have the best system in the World. Hopefully a better and fairer system will come up down the road. I just think that the lottery system will give you a chance no matter how many points you have.

Archerelk, not argueing with you but what units have a 0% chance for NR, just curious.

Oh yeah take it easy on schmalts he is a little GHEY.....;)
 
"I have to buy a license in NV and ID just to apply, so AZ isn't the only one."

That is true. But the problem is AZ tags are more sought after so thats why everyone whines about it for AZ, but not the others. Its too bad its come down to this. AZ always gets the bad rap when there are states that are just as bad or worse. Everybody wants something for nothing.





It's Bush's fault!!!
 
Good luck to all you guys in the upcoming draw and I hope you get a tag your really want with or w/o max bonus points!
 
I will just get my 6 months in as a new AZ resident and will have 0 points (unless I take hunter ed really soon) so what are my chances!!!???
AM I one notch above all the NR,
I sure as heck am going to dreamof drawing a tag!!
I can always hunt CO next year but I will be a NR now and have to drive a whole lot further!
Jeff
 
Stan,

I am not sure that any units have a 0% draw opportunity for non res without max points. After reading this entire thread, there are many posts that indicated that. I was merely saying if that is true it is a problem.

Sremim,

Sorry for getting a little frustrated with you. You obviously were not understanding the intent of my original statement, and the whining statement got me fired up.


Not to mention I still own a 40 acre ranch in unit 18, and I can not even apply as a resident. Just drives me nuts.
 
Blair, what part of TX are you living in? Like I mentioned, I wasn't trying to argue. I was just curious if there was a 0% hunt.
 
Jeff,
As a resident you will have a chance at any and every tag you apply for. Thats the good news, the bad news is, it can still be very hard to get drawn depending on where you apply. But I'll tell you this, I've got friends who have drawn the very best tags in the state with few (less than 3) or no points. It happens every year. So it is possible. You just have to be lucky. I still haven't drawn a bull elk tag in 17 years of applying as a resident.








It's Bush's fault!!!
 
I am just outside of Fort Worth. Needless to say I don't make it out to the ranch much. We finished our cabin 2 weeks before I got relocated. Now I am just praying for a good tag to take me back there.
 
Stan, they are shooting for the end of the month online and printed regs out by end of first week of January. Hope all's well for you and your family. Have a great holiday season! That lil guy will really have a great time this year!
 

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