INITIATIVE 400

H

HOGAN

Guest
*Please check this post often for changes and details that need your input.

Here is the latest draft of the elk hunting proposal. Thanks to all who attended the meeting and offered input. We have decided to call it "Initiative 400", and assign areas with new regulations a hunt number...401, 402, etc. The previous draft can be seen here: http://www.wildlife.utah.gov/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20001&start=0


For areas that currently have spike restrictions:
1) Eliminate spike-only restrictions state-wide, beginning with 4 or 5 pilot areas. See below for a description of these areas.
2) Sub-divide the larger units such as Wasatch and Manti.
3) Manage these smaller units with herd objectives, rather than harvest age objectives. For example, 20 bulls to 100 cows rather than 5-6 year age harvest objective.
4) Structure the hunting seasons to move the rifle hunt out of the rut. Proposed hunting seasons:
Controlled Archery: Sept. 1-21
Controlled Muzzleloader Season 1: Sept 26-Oct 4 (same as muzzle deer)
Controlled Muzzleloader Season 2: November 1-9 (same as gen. muzz. elk)
Controlled Rifle Season 1: Oct 6-10
Controlled Rifle Season 2: Oct 13-17
General Antlerless Archery: Aug 23-Sept 14 (same as general archery elk)
5) Require mandatory hunt reporting for Controlled tags. The DWR would be able to choose how this is done.
6) Implement a preference point drawing for Controlled tags, separate from the LE drawing. Hunters could apply in only one of the two drawings each year.
7) These new regulations would be phased in over time. (No specific plans have been made in this regard)
8)Pilot Program areas:

North Cache
Wasatch (will be divided into 3-6 smaller units)
La Sal
Nebo
Fish Lake

Specific tag #s will be added to this post in a few days, as they become available. Tag allocation will be 55% Rifle, 25-30% Archery, 15-20% Muzzleloader.

9)Continue to offer general archery tags on the pilot units, but restrict them to antlerless harvest only.


For areas that will remain LE (premium units)
-No changes were made to this section of the proposal. These changes may be presented in the future, after results from the 2007 LE and management hunts become available.
1) Increase tag numbers significantly, with a proportionally larger number of tags being given to short-range weapons. Our feeling here is that this would make those hunts more enticing, and eliminate some of the competition for rifle tags. Tag numbers for both LE hunts and "controlled hunts" would be, tentatively, 25-30% archery, 15-25% muzzleloader, and 45-60% rifle.
2) Continue to use management tags. Add management hunts to all the LE areas, but move those hunts out of the LE drawing. It was suggested to make it like the old AR301 hunt, which used no bonus or preference points and had no waiting period.


For areas that are currently any-bull:
No changes are currently being proposed for any-bull units.


Additional info:

Under these new regulations, revenue generated from tag sales will remain the same or increase.

These changes seem to be well supported by most hunters in Utah, based on response here on the forum and informal polls. We are making efforts to inform as many people as possible about this initiative. Your help and input is appreciated.

Recent suggestions (not part of the proposal yet - still seeking input):

1) Adjust tag percentages to give more muzzleloader tags (actual tag #s have not yet been presented) Instead of 15-20% going to muzzleloaders, maybe increase that number to 25%.
 
Don't take the management bull tags out of the draw! There are too many people in the system as it is. There are pleanty of people with points willing to burn points to shoot a massive 5x6 herd bull.
 
They dont need to burn points for a managment tag...so how is that helping to get guys through the system?????
 
It will help free up the bonus point system. The two compliment one another. Maybe this will help clear things up...

Wasatch;
248 LE tags issued in 06, 4596 total tags
1200 LE tags under pilot plan
600 LE rifle tags @ 60%= 360 killed bulls
360 LE archery tags @ 40%=144 killed bulls
240 LE muzzy tags @ 50%=120 killed bulls
1200 LE tags @ 53%=624 killed bulls, 168 LE killed bulls in 06(67.7%)

LaSal;
49 LE tags issued in 06, 429 total tags
300 LE tags under pilot plan
150 LE rifle tags @ 55%=83 killed bulls
90 LE archery tags @ 35%=32 killed bulls
60 LE muzzy tags @ 50%=30 killed bulls
300 LE tags @ 48%=145 killed bulls, 35 LE killed bulls in 06(71.4%)

N Cache;
52 LE tags issued in 06, 974 total tags
500 LE tags under pilot plan
250 LE rifle tags @ 60%=150 killed bulls
150 LE archery tags @ 15%=23 killed bulls
100 LE muzzy tags @ 25%=25 killed bulls
500 LE tags @ 40 %=198 killed bulls, 21 LE killed bulls in 06(40.4%)

Fish Lake;
94 LE tags issued in 06, 1476 total tags
900 LE tags under pilot plan
450 LE rifle tags @ 60%=270 killed bulls
270 LE archery tags @ 40%=108 killed bulls
180 LE muzzy tags @ 50%=90 killed bulls
900 LE tags @ 52%=468 killed bulls, 79 LE killed bulls in 06(84%)

Nebo;
106 LE tags issued in 06, 1169 total tags
1000 LE tags under pilot plan
500 LE rifle tags @ 55%=275 killed bulls
300 LE archery tags @ 35%=105 killed bulls
200 LE muzzy tags @ 45%=90 killed bulls
1000 LE tags @ 47%=470 killed bulls, 61 LE killed bulls in 06(57.5%)

Wasatch killed 337 spikes and 168 mature bulls in 06
LaSal killed 60 spikes and 35 mature bulls in 06
N Cache killed 126 spikes and 21 mature bulls in 06
Nebo killed 112 spikes and 61 mature bulls in 06
Fish Lake killed 168 spikes and 79 mature bulls in 06

That is 803 spikes killed vs 364 mature bulls just on these five units. Total tags issued last year was 8644. This plan would give 3900 mature bull tags plus up to 4000 archery anterless tags=7900 tags. That is 744 fewer available tags on these five units. That is 1905 bulls that would be killed based on these averages, last year there were 1167 bulls killed, spike/mature bulls combined. That allows an extra 738 hunters to taste success than last year. This will also align the bull/cow ratios and the dreaded age objectives into where they should be.
 
Bambi,

I know, I know. These DWR forum guys think they are on to something. Maybe they are, but I sure have my doubts.

Have you ran INITIATIVE 400 past SFW yet? I say nothing will ever happen.
 
KTC,

What are you implying? Unless Don Peay signs off, it has no chance? That is what I fear the current situation is - only Don Peay can come up with "good" ideas that the Wildlife Board will support. I'm not sure I support Initiative 400, but leaving our elk management solely up to SFW is not my idea of listening to the "sportsmen?s voice".
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-15-07 AT 04:59PM (MST)[p]Hogan, Where did you get your numbers?

"""Wasatch;
248 LE tags issued in 06, 4596 total tags
1200 LE tags under pilot plan
600 LE rifle tags @ 60%= 360 killed bulls
360 LE archery tags @ 40%=144 killed bulls
240 LE muzzy tags @ 50%=120 killed bulls
1200 LE tags @ 53%=624 killed bulls, 168 LE killed bulls in 06(67.7%)

LaSal;
49 LE tags issued in 06, 429 total tags
300 LE tags under pilot plan
150 LE rifle tags @ 55%=83 killed bulls
90 LE archery tags @ 35%=32 killed bulls
60 LE muzzy tags @ 50%=30 killed bulls
300 LE tags @ 48%=145 killed bulls, 35 LE killed bulls in 06(71.4%)

N Cache;
52 LE tags issued in 06, 974 total tags
500 LE tags under pilot plan
250 LE rifle tags @ 60%=150 killed bulls
150 LE archery tags @ 15%=23 killed bulls
100 LE muzzy tags @ 25%=25 killed bulls
500 LE tags @ 40 %=198 killed bulls, 21 LE killed bulls in 06(40.4%)

Fish Lake;
94 LE tags issued in 06, 1476 total tags
900 LE tags under pilot plan
450 LE rifle tags @ 60%=270 killed bulls
270 LE archery tags @ 40%=108 killed bulls
180 LE muzzy tags @ 50%=90 killed bulls
900 LE tags @ 52%=468 killed bulls, 79 LE killed bulls in 06(84%)

Nebo;
106 LE tags issued in 06, 1169 total tags
1000 LE tags under pilot plan
500 LE rifle tags @ 55%=275 killed bulls
300 LE archery tags @ 35%=105 killed bulls
200 LE muzzy tags @ 45%=90 killed bulls
1000 LE tags @ 47%=470 killed bulls, 61 LE killed bulls in 06(57.5%)

Wasatch killed 337 spikes and 168 mature bulls in 06
LaSal killed 60 spikes and 35 mature bulls in 06
N Cache killed 126 spikes and 21 mature bulls in 06
Nebo killed 112 spikes and 61 mature bulls in 06
Fish Lake killed 168 spikes and 79 mature bulls in 06

That is 803 spikes killed vs 364 mature bulls just on these five units. Total tags issued last year was 8644. This plan would give 3900 mature bull tags plus up to 4000 archery anterless tags=7900 tags. That is 744 fewer available tags on these five units. That is 1905 bulls that would be killed based on these averages, last year there were 1167 bulls killed, spike/mature bulls combined. That allows an extra 738 hunters to taste success than last year. This will also align the bull/cow ratios and the dreaded age objectives into where they should be."""







I guarantee you those numbers you Quoted are Crap. The kill rates on those units are alot higher than are shown, Especially on the rifle. Try 80-90% success rates and then redo your numbers.

Getting rid of the spike only tags would be the worst thing that they could do.

Right now a guy can go buy a spike tag and hunt elk every year. If this Initative passes try every 10 to 15 years. For alot of people it is the experiance of the hunt rather than the size of the elk.
 
Those tag allocation numbers are amusing. Increase archery to entice hunters and reduce interest in rifle tags? Seems to me that these numbers are self-serving.
 
I am not arguing this. I am done anyway. I do not want to pick up a bow or muzz. I hunt with a rifle.
 
A few years under this management plan and all these units will be like the current any bull units, lots of hunters with a few small bulls.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-15-07 AT 09:30PM (MST)[p]HOLY (CRAP) !!!!

"Nebo;
106 LE tags issued in 06, 1169 total tags
1000 LE tags under pilot plan
500 LE rifle tags @ 55%=275 killed bulls
300 LE archery tags @ 35%=105 killed bulls
200 LE muzzy tags @ 45%=90 killed bulls
1000 LE tags @ 47%=470 killed bulls, 61 LE killed bulls in 06(57.5%)"

Who came up with these numbers?? The Nebo has a TOTAL HERD OF 1,500. You guys plan on shooting 470 bulls?? Sorry to be so blunt, but that set of numbers is asinine. No biological data to back up those numbers.
 
Looks like a lot of "Basement biology". I have followed the threads on the DWR site and I applaud the effort, but I don't think that it will work as intended.

Andy
 
I came up with these numbers as a STARTING point. Not as an ending point. We/I have talked with SFW Board members, DWR biologists and many, many hunters. The response as been overwhelmingly positve. This is on five units to begin with, once it proves to be successful, we hope to widen it out. This all started when the question was raised on how to increase LE tags w/o killing the quality. I mentioned we could stop killing spikes and move the rifle hunt out of the rut and manage to herd objectives (bull/cow ratios), and this Initiative was born. Ridicule it if you wish, my question then is, WHAT THE HELL IS YOUR SUGGESTION FOR UTAH? A 10 year old kid isn't guaranteed to draw a LE tag EVER in his lifetime. How is that a good system? Initiative 400 is about giving people who want to hunt mature bulls, but not necesarrily 380+ bulls, a chance to do so on a few units and not have to wait a lifetime to hunt the elk they see every year while chasing immature(spikes) elk. The core of this idea is to stop killing spikes, move the rifle hunt out of the rut(make it a hunt instead of a kill), and manage for herd objectives rather than age objectives that are bogus to begin with. Why is this such a bad thing?

PRO
 
Correct me if I'm wrong PRO...the numbers you came up with (as far as hunter success) are a best guess after taking into consideration that the hunt dates will be moved. At the very least this plan has merrit just by getting the rifle hunters out of the rut. I know this isn't popular with rifle hunters but "HOLY CRAP", if you can't kill a good bull with a rifle in Utah these days you should give this game up.

KTC - I am not trying to pick a fight but is it the numbers, is it the date changes, what is it that you so addamantly disagree with? Again, not trying to pick a fight, just looking for ideas from the people who oppose this.

It's always an adventure!!!
 
The way it keeps changing around is somewhat confusing....DWR site and here...

It seems to mainly be for guys on an Elk waiting period or those that have already drawn LE buck or LE antelope or even LE bull and have low points on elk and don't want to kinda pay their due's like the rest of us are/have done for years.

Is it still in this proposal to pick only one; cow or general any bull or these new bull hunts or LE units or the left available spike units and apply for ONLY one of them and if not drawn you DO NOT hunt Utah that year??or for many years?

I agree with the 'we will have new General Any Bull units' in about 3 years after this type tag allocation shoots them out.

After all these years of putting up with sacrifice to have what we have now just so a few guys--maybe even me--can draw a 'bigger bull' tag every 4-6 years isn't really any diffeernt than it is now is it???

Robb
 
How can you take boys offense to my statements? 470 bulls out of a herd of 1,500 animals WILL NOT WORK, not even on a spike only hunt. There are 900+ cows on the Nebo with a calving rate of 50%. That means there are only 450 calves and if half are bulls then you get 225 bulls to shoot, IF they all lived thru their first year. Some of the excess bull get sponged off the Manti and the Wasatch, but no way you could pressure that unit as proposed.

Ironic that I am labled as an opportunist on this site. I am all for managing our herds to produce much more opportunity, but a reasonable quality should be maintained.
 
Robb - initially I had some of the same thoughts. I know of several people who have done numbers related to odds. PRO is right, as it stands now a person with 4 bonus points has a 60% chance of drawing the Wasatch tag in 30 years. Several people have come up with roughly the same numbers. Even with max points some of the numbers are pointing to over 10 years. This is on the Wasatch unit. I can only imagine what the numbers are like on units like the San Juan and the Pahvant. As it sits right now neither I nor my kids will ever get to hunt the Wasatch for big bulls. Myself, I can live with it. I had my chance last year and that's good enough for me. I am more concerned about providing opportunity for my kids. I don't think that they should move to the head of the line but it would be nice if my 14 year old got to hunt elk before she turned 30. How do you keep kids interest in hunting with this kind of lack of opportunity? Another example is my buddies dad. He is 66 and has been putting in for elk since long before bonus points were given. He has max points, and as it sits right now he may not draw until he's 76. Now that's not right, but I'm not sure what to do about it other than find units to increase the opportunity. This proposal may need some work but it's heading in the right direction.

It's always an adventure!!!
 
AWLB,

The dates are fine. The thing that gets me is when they want to dangle a twinkie out there with bow tags. The majority rifle hunt.

Again, I am not arguing this issue. I have for years and I am on a waiting period. This argument is for those that have points. You ask a legit question. No arguments here, just my thoughts that are no longer valid.:)
 
Currently the tags are split 60,25, 15. Our plan on the pilot areas is 50,30,20. Not as big of a switch to bowhunters as asserted. We did this based on success rates and as a way to increase overall tag numbers. The majority of those involved in this plan are NOT archers. There are only two of the 10 'founders' who hunt archers as their primary weapon.

PRO
 
The reason so many put in for rifle is that is where all the tags are. In other states where the rifle tag is not in the rut you can buy an rifle tag over the counter, yet must draw a muzzle loader tag. Takeing away rifle tags will get rid of the log jam! It will actually better the odds for them. It will worsen the odds for muzzy guys and archers. Taking the rifle hunt out of the rut makes that a hunt again. Each weapon has its own appeal, rifle hunt you have the best long range weapon and the most permits, muzzy in the rut, archery in the rut, lower success rate but more tags than muzzy. Win-Win situation for all. Tag #'s may be high in some areas and are just the foundation to build on. They will be adjusted accordingly. We are managing for bull/cow ratio instead of age objective. It works! Only 2 of the 17 who attended the last meeting had drawn out with the current system. Odds of drawing for a kid that is 12 are horrible! I would guess about a 12% chance of drawing by the time he or she is 62 years old. More on that if you want it, otherwise you will have to trust me.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-07 AT 05:43PM (MST)[p]Just like the other threads posted on this idea, it sucks. there just arent enough big bulls to support this crap. if you do it, in 5 years you will be stuck with cows and more cows and a couple small bulls. there is a reason they do a point system. there are too many hunters. here is an idea, maybe we should do a LE hunt to kill off all the poachers and dumb hunters. that would certainly even the odds. annitiative 400 is a load of crap and will never pass. it ticks me off that a bunch of people think they can come in and split my unit so a bunch of desperate hunters can get a shot at a small bull and kill my chances of ever drawing out for a monster bull. further more, most of the fun of hunting is just getting outdoors and having a good time. if you pass this initiative, my mountains will be flooded with bougus hunters and there will be few bulls to admire tag or no tag.
give up and join the lottery, your chances of getting a tag are far better than the chances of this load of garbage passing
 
COULDN"T HELP IT BESS

CAT I've watched from the background how this idea has progressed over the past few weeks.

LET ME SAY NO MORE THAN THE IGNORANT RANT BY TROPHYMASTER
PROVES MY POINT EXACTLY apparently the mountains are all his and anybody that wants to kill a bull less than 600 inches is nothing but a bogus hunter.

This is exactly the type of opinion and viewpoint that will
pretty much guarantee that if this fool TROPHYMASTER ever gets the opportunity to breed and have offspring his offspring will never get to hunt elk in Utah weather it be a spike or stinky.
FRICKEN IDIOT!!!!!

I don't agree with several items in this plan but it is a good start and at least these dudes care enough to try and change things. Agree or disagree at least somebody has the sack
to try and come up with alternatives.

THE ONLY ww THAT IS SICK OF THE RICHARD CRANIUMS OF THE WORLD COMPLAINAING ABOUT BOGUS HUNTERS ON THEIR MOUNTAINS
 
RE: COULDN"T HELP IT BESS

Thanks wiley, who is this guy? I thought of this proposal a long time ago but didn't get off my butt and do anything. Thanks for your hard work. AND DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
 
A little possesive aren't we? "My Unit" and "My mountain". Give me a break! None of your points hold water. You and people like you are the reason this initiative will pass. The reason you don't like it is because you think that it will ruin "YOUR UNIT". Self centered and self served hunters like yourself will ruin your unit long before this intiative does.



"there just arent enough
big bulls to support this
crap."

Evidently you don't get out much. There are a lot of bulls on these units than apparently you know about. I have yet to step foot on any unit in the state that doesn't have a lot of bulls. Get out of the truck and off the 4 wheeler. I hunt a couple of these units that are mentioned and it would do them some good to kill a few more bulls. The idea isn't to drop them off the trophy list but to manage a bull to cow ratio that will provide a healthy herd and give more opportunity to all hunters. I don't know how many points you have but if you don't have max points (and even if you do) you stand a very good chance of never hunting "YOUR UNIT". As it sits right now you could be switching thumbs for decades.




"it ticks me off that
a bunch of people think
they can come in and
split my unit so a
bunch of desperate hunters can
get a shot at a
small bull and kill my
chances of ever drawing out"

It ticks me off that one hunter thinks he has the right to "HIS UNIT" and "HIS MOUNTAIN" over a bunch of hunters. Who do you think you are?




"further more, most of the
fun of hunting is just
getting outdoors and having a
good time."

If most of the fun of hunting is just getting outdoors then why are you so concerned about "YOUR UNIT"? You can get outdoors on any unit.



"give up and join the lottery,
your chances of getting a
tag are far better than
the chances of this load
of garbage passing"

I would dare say that by your childish post, most of the people on this forum have been in the lottery long before you were pissing your pants. It's ok to have an oppinion. I respect that. What I don't respect is the way you present your oppinion with the "in your face" attitude. In your post, not once did you suggest a solution. Fact: there are too many bulls and something needs to, and will be, done about it. Wouldn't it be nice to have a say in the process? Be part of the solution not part of the problem.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Calm down fella's!

The guy made some decent points and some challenges.... maybe the wrong pronoun but ya know....

If it still stays one choice and done with not being able to hunt my home state year in year out if not drawn on the One an Done deal.... no way in heck I'll get on the band wagon...

Solution...or oppinion...lower the age class in those few units...make spike tags unit specific amount of tags...leave the rest alone and have it all under the current Bonus point system...

Ya don't draw ya got the OTC unit specific spike tags of weapon choice and the OTC General Any Bull tags weapon of choice in mid-June..our Utah earned money still stays in Utah every year not every 4-6 years.

The cow tags stay seperate like they are now.

This is kinda turning into shooters vs hunters...

Robb
 
Manage to the current age objectives. Manage to the current age objectives. Not 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 years OVER objective, but to the age objective. It is even ok to approach the low end of the age objectives. There could be double the opportunity if the units were actually managed to the current age objectives. Did I mention we should manage to the current age objectives?
 
Packout - let me get this straight...you think we should manage to the current age objective? Did I understand you right? LOL


It's always an adventure!!!
 
I know I heard a few years back that more Bulls was dieing of old age on the San Juan then what was being killed each year, so why can those elk become a tag instead of bear or coyote bait. If your cows are having 400 calves a year and half are bull (200)you should be able to take same amount back out of the herd without changing the size of the bull polulation. but if you are only giving out 200 tags you would have to have a 100% kill Some unit can and should be manged to a more tags and for Mangement bulls taken out because it you keep killing all the 6x6 and bigger you will leave a lot of the 5x6 5x5 gentic in the herd and those type of bulls are what the mangement hunt will target.
 
Some on here are mis-reading this proposal(some intentionally I believe.) This is for 5 units ONLY, we want to stop killing spikes on these 5 units ONLY, move the rifle hunt out of Sept on these 5 units ONLY, manage for bull/cow ratios closer to what the elk management plan calls for on these 5 units ONLY, Oh yeah, did I mention it was on 5 units ONLY? Those behind this Initiative believe managing for herd objectives(which includes bull/cow ratios) is a better/more effective way to manage the elk herds than age objectives. Some of the 'many' problems with age objectives is; 1)No mandatory tooth samples
2)no exact science on tooth age readings with currently used method 3)one or two extremes(really young or really old bulls) can skew the data on units with small samples submitted. There are more, but these are plenty.

The basic concept with this is to stop killing spikes(on these 5 units ONLY), and moving the rifle hunt out of Sept(on these 5 units ONLY). This will enable the DWR to issue many, many, more tags(on these 5 units ONLY). One of the units proposed had 21 mature bulls killed on it in 2006 while 126 spikes were killed on it in 2006. How is this healthy and good for elk hunters and elk herds?

PRO
 
Thanks PRO

So it is still One and Done with this plan.... apply for One and if ya don't draw ya don't hunt Utah elk that year..

Robb
 
Robb, do you not see where I typed "on these 5 units ONLY?" The rest of the state will be the same as now, meaning spike hunts for those who desire them, any bull tags for those who prefer them, cow tags for those who like those. How does that resemble "apply for One and if ya don't draw ya don't hunt Utah elk that year..."?Did "ya" read my last post? Go back and look for the word "ONLY", I think I typed it a few times. With this plan we can give out 3000+ tags EVERY year on just these five units ONLY, compared to the 2000 LE tags issued statewide in 2007. How does this NOT compute to more opportunity? Lets try and use simple math, like 1+1=2 okay?

PRO
 
Prohunter, talking down to people won't get you far on this site. I am neither for or against your proposal, but won't back anything until the DWR is actually allowed to manage to the current objectives. What if you take away spike hunting and the DWR is not allowed to manage to these new objectives you have set? Then people gave away their opportunity only to have less opportunity returned. (I have never bought a spike tag)

In the meantime, before your proposal can be implemented, are you going to ask for additional opportunity by simply managing the herds to the current age objective for each unit?
 
I have and will continue to do so EVERY time I go to a RAC or talk with anyone from the DWR, talk about managing to current objectives. I called within minutes of seeing the new tag numbers for 2007.

I don't need a lecture or be 'talked' down to either. I just seen some are having a hardtime following along. Just wanted to point out the key issues in CAPS, so that people could pick up on them. Don't preach to me about talking down to people when you are talking down to me, okay? Follow your own advice first. I have done my best to be 'nice', but when I see intentional butchering of what this is about, I will fire back.

PRO
 
Here we go again for the hundreth time. Why don't you guys start your own web site. Pro, Hogan and Besstard. You all prove once again how you can't manage your natural resources.
 
Prohunter, I asked you two simple questions and recommended that you tone down your responses. These are real concerns for many people and in no way should my posts be taken as me talking down to you. Back to the first question, What happens if the objectives set by your proposal are not adhered to? The DWR has not been allowed to manage to the current, high objectives. How can people expect to give up their current opportunities (big bulls and spike tags) on the hope that these new objectives will be followed?

Also, under rule by the UDWR, landowners located within limited entry units are able to secure tags by forming a landowner's association. Currently, landowners within spike only units are not elidgeable to secure mature bull tags because they have the opportuity to obtain "general season" tags in form of spike tags. What you are proposing would make landowners in these spike units elidgeable to receive landowner tags. This would take away a portion of the opportunity you have just created. The Elk Committee covered, analyzed, and broke-down this very scenario.
 
The only ones not allowing the DWR to manage to current objectives is the DWR. That is the bottom line. No one group does/ nor should they run the entire system. I have had talks with people in SFW and MDF. I believe both to be 'power players' in all this. I/we are meeting with MDF folks next week. I will let you know where they stand after the meeting. Right now they are very 'interested' in this proposal.

We will need to address the landowner angle as well as th effects to CWMU's and conswervation tag numbers. I am very aware what took place with the elk committee, my good friend and fellow UBA Board Member Jerry Slaugh was on the committee. Thanks for the thoughts.

PRO
 
Keep up the good work Pro. The inititive was placed on tables at the Logan SFW banquet for member feedback. SFW board knows little about this proposal. Most people that I've talked to, agree that some changes on 5 units to provided more opportunity for mature bulls, and get the rifle hunt out of the rut is worth trying. The Logan chapture committee members will discuss this inititive more in 2 weeks. Any feedback from Cache Valley Sportmen for or against are wanted and welcome. Call Greg at 435 755-9112, or email [email protected] Thanks Greg
 
Thanks Greg, I look forward to working with you more on this in the near future.

PRO
 
I think they should flip the dates for the muzz and early rifle hunts. Let the muzz hunt the heat of the rut and take first crack. If that was the case i would put in for the muzz instead of the rifle. I think a few others would too.
 
That's one of the main points there Peak. Moving the rifle hunt out of the rut (which would be a little later than the current ML hunt) and giving the primitive weapon hunters the advantage of the rut. You like many others would apply for the primitive hunts over the rifle hunts if you had the rut to hunt. This alone would provide more opportunity just by decreasing the number of applicants on the rifle tags. It all spells increased opportunity. I think the sticky part will be deciding on how many tags each unit can manage. As it sits right now, Utah is the only state hunting elk in the rut with a rifle. There is good reason for this. Too high of a harvest rate. Increasing tag numbers and dispursing the number of applicants for each weapon choice only adds up to more opportunity. IMO it's a win win situation. I don't see how even the rifle hunters can gripe about that one, except for the fact that it would not longer be a "gimme" hunt. Great points and concerns brought up by everyone. This topic definately warrants more discussion. It's like I said before, it's not if something is going to be done about it, but when. I personally would like a say as I'm sure many of you would. It will definately not go without comprimise on all parties but it's because of the passion that we all share that even brings this subject up.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
peakfreak, here are the suggested season dates:

Structure the hunting seasons to move the rifle hunt out of the rut. Proposed hunting seasons:
Controlled Archery: Sept. 1-21
Controlled Muzzleloader Season 1: Sept 26-Oct 4 (same as muzzle deer)
Controlled Muzzleloader Season 2: November 1-9 (same as gen. muzz. elk)
Controlled Rifle Season 1: Oct 6-10
Controlled Rifle Season 2: Oct 13-17
General Antlerless Archery: Aug 23-Sept 14 (same as general archery elk)

This, combined with not killing spikes will allow MANY more tags to be issued(on these 5 units ONLY.) Thanks for the post awholelottabull. Feel free to work some numbers on the unit we discussed, you can use the numbers I ran for a reference. These numbers are a starting point only, we need to fine tune them, we also intend to break down 2 or 3 of these units into smaller units that will allow for easier management implementation.

PRO
 
I really appreciate your work on this all! Thanks.

I am generally aligned with this proposal, but would suggest a couple of minor tweeks, take it for what it is worth, as I know I have not been hashing it out with you all.

1: Archery going to the 21st is not overly enticing. It is better than now, but add 4-5 more days on the end, then people will really shift.
2: Muzzleloader season should be pushed back a couple of days. (early hunt) It is almost a gimme with the dates you have proposed, and I believe success would be very high.

Again, I have not had time to look at the numbers, dates, etc. Just am trying to say good job and maybe a few tweeks would make the primitive hunts far more desirable.
 
Thanks, we will taken into consideration. Feel free to share any other ideas or thoughts you have on this that will help fine tune it.

PRO
 
I have sat in numerous committee, RAC and Board meetings over the last 10 years. The DWR has recommended many tag increases only to have the RACs or Board decrease the recommended permit numbers, after much lobbying by different groups. Just last year MDF came out against the elk tag increases, then printed the effects elk have on deer. I am all for more opportunity and maybe this refined proposal will give more opportunity. There are a lot of open ends in this proposal.
 
I don't like doing away with the spike tags even if it is on "ONLY FIVE UNITS." Why don't you guys get the DWR to manage for age objectives before you go and get rid of guaranteed spike tags?

I for one look forward to the muzzleloader spike hunt in november more than any other utah hunt.

I have Max points for elk, and when the time is right I will draw a tag for a Mature bull, then I will go back to my spike tags.

I don't think any body that has drawn an antelope or a deer tag previously has any right to ##### that they are behind on points for elk. They made their choice and now they have to wait their turn.
 
>I don't like doing away with
>the spike tags even if
>it is on "ONLY FIVE
>UNITS." Why don't you guys
>get the DWR to manage
>for age objectives before you
>go and get rid of
>guaranteed spike tags?

I can understand your concern on this. I am always afraid of giving something up to the government because if it doesn't work you never get it back. However, if you were to manage for age objective, or bull to cow ratios, without decreasing the amount of spikes taken every year, in only a few years you would have a time period when there wouldn't be very many big bulls to shoot. IMO you have to do it at the same time in order to avoid a gap down the road for mature bulls. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while you are killing some of the big bulls those spikes need to have a couple of years to mature. I hope that didn't come across as garble. It sure sounded like it to me. Anyway, hopefully you understand what I'm saying.

It's always an adventure!!!
 
elkantlers, what do you tell the 14 year old kid who under the current system may never draw a tag? Just deal with it? Or do you only worry about yourself and nobody else? Right now, w/o a single new applicant, those who applied for a Wasatch tag, more than half of the rifle hunters will NEVER draw a tag. NEVER. Are you okay with that? I am not. The motivation behind Intitiative 400 is to increase opportunity to hunt mature bulls for those who just want a chance at a decent bull sometime in their life. The only way I can see this happening is by not killing spikes, move the rifle hunt out of September, manage for herd objectives instead of age objectives. Why is this such a radical idea?

PRO
 
I am all for more tags, but why ruin a quality unit like Fishlake. Why not leave it alone, it has already been an experment for more tags and look what happened to the herd. This whole thing sounds like a reason for the people that have already drawn a tag to have a chance to hunt elk again. I would rather have a chance to kill one 380+ bull then shot five 280 or less bulls. Just the same as all of you that have already hunted elk, I would like to be able to look over many bulls. Instead of the big bull hunt in Utah turn out to be just like there quality, quality deer hunt!!
 
TAY,

I am not sure if you are familiar with Arizona and New Mexico. They have the same type of plan that we are pushing for, and last time that I was in those states, the bulls are far from 280 or less. Both AZ and NM are putting animals in the books every year. IF this plan was to be put in place, You would have some areas that will have 300-330+ plus bulls. And then 8 to 10 areas that will have 350 plus bulls. Those are the preimier areas. SO you will now have QUALITY and QUANITY throughout the state. What is wrong with that????
 
The problem with using Fishlake for your experment is that you already used Fishlake for one. The herd has been killed off. Eight years ago i would agree with the whole thing, but everyone's greed has already done it's damage down there. The year that everyone could carry a spike and cow tag during the rifle hunt ruined everything down on Fishlake. But i guess there are a few bulls bigger than a spike so let's just finish them off so they are not so lonely and dont have to keep trying to breed there brother!
 
whs, you took the words right out of my mouth and said it better than I could. Ditto to your last post. Thank you.

PRO
 
whs and prooutdoor,

I guess you two skipped my first sentence, "I am all for more tags." What i am saying is let Fishlake get it's feet under it. I would love more chance's just use unit's that are in good shape to start.
 
I think the units in the pilot are all good units. All are spread out. In different regions. The Fish Lake is the best unit IMO for that area. Monroe, Indian Peaks Boulder,Pahvant,Beaver,Dutton are all excellnt units for big bulls. If you want a 350 plus bull tag for that region. All are better than Fish Lake. A lot of thought and work has and will be done with this proposal.
 
Those involved in picking the units believe that this plan will help the Fishlake unit more than the current management plan being implemented on it. that is why it was chosen. All the units we chose were not randomly picked. We had reasons behind each unit chosen. I believe the Fishlake is the BEST canidate for Initiative 400, because it will get bull/cow ratios in line quicker, which will boost the overall numbers quicker. By not killing spikes we would get the maximum number of bulls replacing those harvested each year. This would allow for more cows to drop calves to increase the recruitment for future mature bulls each year. Under the current system, the bull/cow ratio is going to take for ever to get where it should be, which limits the number of calves born each year. Thanks for the concerns though. Sorry if I was a little harsh, I have been getting slammed on this a little hard today on the DWR site. My bad, keep asking questions and adding your opinions, I will try and be nicer in the future.

PRO
 
I can see the reason for picking Fishlake after you explain it like that. One thing i haven't heard is when you guy's want to put this into action. It is a really touchy thing when you want to change everything on the unit that me and my family have hunted for years. I will be the first one to say something needs to change after last years hunt or lack of hunt for spikes. Is this a unit you want to break into smaller unit's?
 
We are having people familiar with ALL the units look at possible areas that can be broken into smaller sub-units. This depends on many factors and will be discussed by all who SHOW UP to the meetings. We currently have a couple of people(Hogan being one) who are looking at the Fishlake. Feel free to PM him if you have any insight that may help on this.

PRO
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-20-07 AT 02:26PM (MST)[p]The Fishlake unit will be one of the best IMO! I am currently speaking with the operator of the Fishlake lodge and getting his input on how he would split this up! It is obvious to make Fishlake its own unit and 1000 lakes its own unit. I am looking to expand from that. The bull to cow ratio in Fishlake is 50/100, that being said those bulls cannot breed, replace those bulls with cows and watch that herd rebound further and grow. The herd is back to objective from 8 years ago but is out of wack trying to grow 400 bulls. And yes NM is one of our comparables with similar season dates and such!
 
I have a hard time believing that. It has nothing to do with growing 400 bulls, it's was from over hunting the unit. And anyone that spends any time around there will tell you it is nowhere close to where it was eight years. I was starting to side with you guys, but I am starting to feel like all you guys care about is what you believe and forget about anyone else. Regardless of what they have to say you know what is best for everyone.
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

I hunt around Hancock flat every year. The objective has not changed it is at 4800 elk. Before the rifle slaughter the population was 5400, It is about 4900, so no it is not what it was 7 years ago. The problem is that they are trying to grow 400 bulls. How many bulls must you have to get a 400 out of them? 50/100 bull to cows is too many bulls! They are dying off of old age, winter killing, even being hit by cars! You say last years hunt was no good? I'm sure it was not! You are hunting the smallest amount of elk on the mountain, spikes! there are more matures, cows and calfs than spikes. The DWR issued too many (unlimited) cow tags! Do you think the unit would of bounced back if they issued too many bull tags?

We want to manage to bull to cow ratio of 30/100! Having 70 cows to 30 bulls allows for faster breeding. We all know that half the elk in Fishlake are bulls, they cannot give birth! As I am sure you know TAY Fishlake has a lot of cover and would be an excellent unit for this proposal. I guarantee you that 70 cows will produce more calfs than 50 cows! How is that not good for the elk and elk hunters?
 
I think you are mis-reading what Hogan is saying. He draw a LE archery tag and went home empty handed. I believe he and those he is talking with have a pretty good handle on this unit. Again, if you have any info to help in this regard, please share, either here or directly to Hogan. The unit is rebounding, nobody is saying it is as 'healthy' as it was 8 yrs ago. What he is saying is, as far as overall numbers it is close, and as far as some in the DWR are concerned, it is recovered. I believe if you were to contact Hogan directly, your view of him and 'us' would be more positive. We want your input, please understand that.

PRO
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

I would not mind giving you a call TAY and talking it over with you. PM me your # and a good time to call and would like to discuss it in further detail.
 
Is this the invasion of the 'Agenda' guys? like stated on a different thread....

Show up with almost 0 post count and are all about some specific 'Agenda'... and then they are gone...

Are we going to have this type of topic with the we want your input but we don't want to have to tell you... you are wrong but this is how you should really feel about it...resposnes??

These guys are posting their thoughts they don't have any INIT-400 to keep selling to anyone... me-- you or him....now one lodge knows everything and has a handle on the FishLake unit..WOW..

Robb
 
So Robb who is qualified to bring up this proposal? I dont care if a guy has one post or ten thousand it doesnt change the idea??
 
Robb, how many posts do I need to be 'authorized' to discuss such topics? Do I need approval from you before I am 'allowed' to 'think' for myself? Get real and get off your Shetland pony. We do have an Initiative, and it WILL be presented at the November RAC's. We have talked with DWR employees, conservation group Board members, BOU leadership(you might want to ask Gordy where he stands on this before you run your piehole), UBA, and many, many, average joe hunters. Does an idea have to be generated from within a certain click of elitests before it is acceptable to be presented before the RAC's? And people call me a pompus A$$. WOW.

PRO
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-20-07 AT 08:05PM (MST)[p]Pro said...
"elkantlers, what do you tell the 14 year old kid who under the current system may never draw a tag? Just deal with it? Or do you only worry about yourself and nobody else?"
.

For your information, I have a boy that will be 14 next year. I can tell you he is excited about carrying a muzzleloader next year on our annual MZ spike hunt. You seem to forget that young people are happy just being in the field hunting with their dads. It is people like YOU(Pro) that tell them that a spike is not even worthy to be hunted.

I would tell any other 14 year olds to hunt spikes every single year until they drew a bull tag!

Under Int.400 that same 14 year old will be able to hunt elk maybe twice in his lifetime instead of every year. You tell me how this is a great system!!

If you truely want every single person too be able to hunt a mature bull you will half to go with a once in a lifetime tag. Now thats scary!!

Pro. you said you have been taking heat on another board for this same Initative. Did you ever consider that alot of people don't like your little idea?

I bet you will be suprised at all the oppositition you see come November.

elkantlers
 
I take heat because I am willing to respond to mis-representations of the plan. You say you will take your son muzzy spike hunting. Good luck, I hope you have a good time together. Having said that, how long should he plan on hunting spikes? 30-40 years, what a bright future. Under I 400, your son can STILL hunt spikes EVERY year. By the way, I would NEVER, nor have I EVER told a 14 year old that a spike is not worthy of being hunted by a 14 year old kid. Remember though, the success rate is very low for your son to actually kill a spike. This plan will INCREASE his odds of killing a bull elk.

I don't know about you, but I hunt to kill, not just for a stroll in the woods. I can do that all year round. You say this will make hunting mature bulls a OIL hunt, what the hell do you think it basically is NOW? I 400 will increase EVERY single elk hunters odds of drawing a mature bull tag more often.

I won't be surprised by people opposing this at the RAC's, most of those who have voiced opposition have valid concerns, some are like you, and prefer to make this personal and not have an understanding of what I 400 is about.

PRO
 
Shetland Pont and piehole in the same post...pompus A$$ to finish it off... stand-up guy all the way.

a certain click of elitests.... sure why not...

By your own little poll on the DWR site...38% for and 60% against.... 2/3rds kinda sends a message....

WW has nothing to do with my posts nor I his...

from Uthunting;

Hello Rob
I seen that cousin is using my name on MM so dont think that it is me giving you a hard time


Thanks Clynt, I'd congratulate you and your little one on her bunny photo in Huntin'Fool but one of the elitests would come on and say how nice that was, for a kid, but wouldn't it be better if she had a 6x6 bull every 4-6 years instead...

Robb
 
Nothing like flat out mis-leading people about a poll that has no relevance at this point. Not quite the percentages you posted. Does that make you a dishonest person, or just a underhanded person? I am now an 'elitist', man I am moving up in the world. I notice you didn't bother to answer my question on how many posts I need to be 'qualified' to state an opinion on here. And I am called the 'elitist', go figure.

Back on topic, I 400 is going forward with help from people of all walks of life. We have been talking with DWR folks, who have been invited to our next meeting. We have and will continue to have talks with leaders from the different 'special interest' groups on this. We will also continue to listen to feedback from the public, even from those whose only desire seems to be to belittle those who dare do SOMETHING besides whine and complain on the internet.

PRO
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-21-07 AT 08:35AM (MST)[p]HOGAN if your numbers were even close for Fishlake which they aren't, that would be 2450 bulls running lose on that unit. I dont know for sure what unit you where on, but i assume it was Fishlake since you said you hunt "Hancock flat every year." So how can you rag on everyone that want's to shoot a 350+ bull if you were holding out for something special. There a 300+ bulls all over on the unit. I don't doubt that owner of Fishlake lodge is seeing elk all around the lodge it is all private. If i was lucky enough to draw my limited entry tag this year and did not connect on a bull i would be trying to find some way any way to hunt big bulls again! As far as the 14 year old kids you are talking about, I have never been around one that has been disappointed hunt spikes. You all want to forget you can buy a OTC any bull tag to hunt Utah, if a stupid little spike isn't good enough for you. Like I said earlier it sounds like a way for people that have drawn there tags to get another one. There are plenty of other animals to hunt in Utah.
 
PleasedADeer said:

"Under Int.400 that same 14 year old will be able to hunt elk maybe twice in his lifetime instead of every year. You tell me how this is a great system!!"

Where did you come up with that #. Have you read any of the proposal? I think you'd better get back to "pleasing deer" whatever that means, because you are letting things fly from your mouth that are 100% untrue and I'm pretty sure you know it.

Being against this proposal is fine, but to slander and falsify the facts contained in it is just rediculous. Kharma fella.
 
I stand by my post # 67 100%.

There is nothing in my post # 67 about number of posts to be able to post.

It is certainly about 'low post count Agenda Guys' and I suppose if folks read from post # 67 downward, I should be saying Thank You to you guys for proving my point and for showing your true colors.

The numbers/percentages are right from your Poll on the DWR site. They are in black and white... 38% voted for -60% didn't vote for... I personally am in vote catagory #2..

'Elkantlers' is the fellow that made the statement about 14 year olds and twice in a lifetime.... not I.

It is Pleasedear not deer I'm happy ya had a chance to think that was cute and ya got a few giggles out of it...

After all you are a 'low post count Agenda Guy'....

I stand by my post # 67 100%

Robb
 
I just looked at the DWR site and it read to me that 58% support it (A few would like to see a few changes) and 42% don't support it. FYI
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-21-07 AT 06:31PM (MST)[p]Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

Thanks Gus, thats the way it reads. It is work in progress so the poll does not hold much value now. When we get everything set in stone the #'s should sky rocket, but until then the polls don't mean much to me.

TAY, I never said this plan would benefit me, my idea of a good hunt is passing on smaller bulls in hope to harvest a bigger one. That is what I did and have no regrets, it was fun! I just would like to do it more than once in my life.
 
Robb, you are either intentionally mis-leading on the poll, or a moron. Which is it? I would guess it is the former. I am one of the original 'creators' of I 400, and I voted for #2 myself. I am not happy with everything as it nows stands, so I voted for liking the idea but wanting a few changes. According to your logic, I am against MY proposal. How stupid is that? Go ahead and stand by your post #67, you still our talking out your tomato.

Gus, thanks for a reasonable thoughtout post. I in reality hold no stock in the polls, and said so at the beginning, they are for entertainment purposes only, kind of like Robb's posts. To expect people to jump up and down over a proposal most either know nothing about or know very little about is silly.

I will be at the Sneekee expo next week handing out flyers on this, anyone interested can find me at either the UBA booth or the Mossback booth.

PRO
 
Oh great, now all of the UDWR website crew are over here. Now we will have hundreds of posts between five guys. I am just kidding, please don't twist my name around and attack me.

You know what you tell a fourteen year old about the future of elk hunting. Put in for your Youth Any Bull, 20% management bull youth reserve; Cow permit 20%youth reserve; go buy a spike tag, hunt your 3 deer seasons, or get a regular anybull, and get an either sex archery tag. Heck I wish they had some of that stuff around when I was fourteen. My chance of killing a 350 plus bull when I was fourteen was 0%, to a fourteen year olds chance now of Probably once or twice in your life, it's not a bad deal.

You know when I was fourteen a trophy bull in Utah was a five point. So I guess I would have to tell a 14 year old you have a great elk hunting oppurtunity compared to when I was fourteen.

What is the diffence between a spike, cow, and 6 point last time I checked getting any elk was a good time. I have as much fun hunting spikes and cows, than I when I have been hunting with buddies on their limited entry hunts. Utah is 31 flavors when it comes to Elk oppurtunity.

As for big bulls not everyone is going to kill one, they are like hot chicks there are only so many and not everybody gets one.

I agree that we should manage so that no hot girl goes to waste, I would just hate to go outside and see the woods filled with Rosie Oddonel.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-21-07 AT 09:09PM (MST)[p]Very good post BIG!!!


Here are some of the numbers on spike harvests from a previous post!


"""""""
Wasatch killed 337 spikes and 168 mature bulls in 06
LaSal killed 60 spikes and 35 mature bulls in 06
N Cache killed 126 spikes and 21 mature bulls in 06
Nebo killed 112 spikes and 61 mature bulls in 06
Fish Lake killed 168 spikes and 79 mature bulls in 06
"""""""

Where are you guys getting these numbers (Other than pulling them out of your ###)?

I have spike hunted for the last 17 years and I can remember being called by the DWR two or three times on harvest data, and not once in the last 5 years. I hunt the Fishlake so I know those numbers are false!!

I would seriously doubt that the numbers on any of those units would have be that high..
elkantlers


Down with Int.400!!!!
 
elkantlers asked:

"Where are you guys getting these numbers (Other than pulling them out of your ###)?"

Right from the DWR website. Available for all who can read and use a mouse without a cheatsheet. I didn't make them up, they are the numbers the DWR uses these numbers to determine the number of tags to issue each year. Like what they did last night with no objections from the public.

Are you calling the DWR and telling them how they are pulling numbers out of their "###s"? Give me a break.

BIG, after the kid turns 18 and he didn't draw a youth tag and he has zero points, then what do you tell him? EVERY unit in the state is at or way over age objectives, most are way over on bull/cow ratios. I 400 will help the DWR obtain objectives for both, as well as give MORE hunters the opportunity to hunt mature bulls(on 5 units ONLY). By moving the rifle hunt out of September, the sucess rate will go down, this will allow for more tags while killing the same number of bulls. By not killing spikes, even more mature bull tags can be added to the mix w/o lowering the quality. Then, start managing to herd objectives and age objectives, this will allow for MORE tags that can be issued. All while keeping quality high. Look at the 4 units that will have management tags this year. According the the top DWR biologists, these units are on the verge of crashing due to bull/cow ratios that are not normal nor healthy. If they managed to bull/cow ratios that are normal and healthy as well as the age objectives, which seem to drive tag allotments now, the quality would level out and remain stable instead of crashing. Why is this so radical of an concept?

FYI, I joined this forum BEFORE I joined the DWR forum. Not that is does/should matter.

PRO
 
PRO what did you tell an 18 year old kid 14 years ago? I think a Heaston tag was a hot ticket back then.

You teach the 18 year old about life. Some people are lucky and some aren't. Then you tell him he has a hell of alot better chance of killing a big bull in Utah than his Dad or Grandad ever did. Then you teach him as the population grows get ready for more dissapointment when it comes to hunting. Because draw odds aren't going to get better for anything.

I don't understand the mentallity that people in Utah are entitled to shoot a big bull.

PRO I don't think the current plan needs a complete overhaul. I don't think it is broken because everybody won't draw a tag. I think the program that has been in place works great and got us to where we are. On the other hand I don't think yours is crazy radical. I could live with your plan. Your plan would actually would benefit me more because I don't care about score and I like primitive. So either way I guess I would win. I just hate take a part an engine that isn't broken. I just kind of the the I-400 is a band aid and we will have the same odds issues in a matter of years.

I can't until I draw my next cow tag in 5 years, but that's life.
 
If you all dont want our feed back why did you ask? Me and elkantlers have both said something about the numbers for Fishlake! You can tell us how wrong we are, and i would agree if i haven't seen it with my own eyes. Elkantlers has hunted down there for 17 years, I have hunted down there mt entire life. I spend at least one weekend usally two weekends a month on the mountain. My family lives and works on the mountain year round. Out of 10 that hunt 1 bought a tag this last year! The rest said "I WONT WASTE MY MONEY ON SOMETHING THAT ISN'T THERE!" I want to kill a mature bull as bad as anyone else, but i dont want to ruin it for my kids. There is alot of truth in what you are saying about the cow ratio. I think there is a real problem in the numbers you are getting. That is my thoughts again tell me how wrong i am about them!!!
 
You got it backwards, HE said MY numbers were wrong. He asked if I pulled the numbers out of my a##, remember? I simply informed him where those numbers came from(the DWR report). What did I say you were wrong about? We do NOT want to ruin the Fish Lake unit either. This proposal is intended to help it. This will get the bull/cow ratios balanced and allow for more cows, which will INCREASE the number of calves born each year, this will bring the herd back to where it was before the slaughter quicker. It will also give hunters like you a chance to hunt the mature bulls there a few times in your life. As I said to you before, the numbers are NOT set, we are willing to listen to any recommendations for numbers, I haven't seen any from you yet. Just saying you dislike the numbers isn't helping, give me some hard numbers, then we can look at them. It is easy to say, "I don't like the numbers", it more difficult to come up with 'better' numbers. Thanks for your passion on that unit. I grew up just north of there in south Sanpete, and spent many days in the saddle on the Fishlake unit growing up.

PRO
 
PRO

I dont try to give you numbers because then i would be pulling them out my a$$! The only number i can give you is i saw 3 not 300 or 3000 elk this last year, 3 elk. I know the next comment is i drove on the road all hunt, the truth is i had three guys from out of town hunting with me. I was trading an elk for a whitetail hunt. Needless to say i am not hunting whitetail this year. I hunted harder then i ever have. I really hope you guys understand the elk on Fishlake migrate very fast down there. I am trying to tell you there is a real problem with the numbers you are getting. I am not against what you are trying to do, I think it is great someone is doing something. I just think there is a real problem with the numbers. It was over hunted once i dont want to see it again.
 
Me neither, and since I haven't hunted it myself for 10+ years, I am hoping those who have can give assistance. HOGAN drew a LE tag there a couple of years ago. I have a couple of buddies who drew last year and said the bulls were everywhere, they ended up with a 335 bull and a 374 bull. I will tell you, the last thing I want to see happen is a repeat of what happened to the Fishlake before. I would never sign off on something that has a remote chance of doing so. I haven't hunted with you before, therefore I have no reason to question your huunting methods. I hope you have a better hunt this fall than last.

PRO
 
I hope it is better myself, since I am drawing my Limited Entry tag this year i believe it will!!! I am not against you, I am asking you to please take a serious look at the numbers. Other than that i am willing to give the plan a try. I believe it will help. If it doesn't we can go back to what we have now. I just dont want you to give out as many tags as elk. I have read about the control hunts, can you explain that to me.
 
Big said

"You teach the 18 year old about life. Some people are lucky and some aren't. "

Or... You teach them that life isn't all about luck and that they have a say in the outcome of their own life. That is a typical "life happened to me" answer.

Do you think anything would ever be accomplished in this world if EVERYONE had the same attitude. "Let's see what's going to HAPPEN to me today". Give me a break!

Grab the Fuc$%n bull by his nuts and twist thise fuc^&'s off!



Or... you can just let him stick his horns up your ass. You have the choice.
 
Way to twist that around. I am talking about a lottery draw, and yeah it is luck. It is a lottery you don't have control over it, some computer in Nevada does.

So go ahead and grab the lottery by nuts and twist them off. Let me know how that goes for you.

If you are talking about other life lessons, yeah teach your kid to grab life by the horns and don't be a victim of circumstance. Go ahead and grab the bulls nuts if that's your thing.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-22-07 AT 12:08PM (MST)[p]I am talking about the way things are run. Do you have the choice to petition or change things to change the odds of said lottery? YES. That was my point. You don't just have to be content knowing that someone else is making the rules for you. YOU HAVE A SAY in how things are!

Sorry if you felt I was "twisting" That was what I got from your post.
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

Tay, is your last name Anderson? Where on the mountain do you hunt? I still would like to discuss this with you, If I send you my phone # will you call me?
 
HOGAN send me your number and i will talk with you. No my last name isn't Anderson. I hunt all over honestly from U.M creek to 1000 lake. It all depends on what we are chasing big bulls or spikes.
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

That is 744 fewer tags issued on those units last year, but that does not include late season cow tag #'s, include them and we may be very close to that #. I think it will still take the full 3 years to reach the objective! After the objective is reached these #'s are perfectly in check with maintaining the herd! More cow tags will have to be issued. I love the idea of 4500 elk being on the Fishlake unit!

Now-

Fishlake- 4500 total elk
2160 Bulls
2340 Cows

Thre years from now-
1350 Bulls
3150 Cows

With a 50% increase every year from the cows-
1575 new elk, half being bulls, 788, half being cows 788,

We are well below objectives this plan has room for more opportunity. I used such a low number of 50% to allow for deaths due to predators, winter kills and such. There is still room to grow, these #'s are tough to argue and am sure everyonr on the fence can see the opportunity now. Every 2-3 years will happen!
 
Pro, If those numbers are coming from the DWR, I would still like to know how they came up with them! As I said before, I have not been called on my spike harvest data for at least five years.



Hogan wrote....

"""" Now-

Fishlake- 4500 total elk
2160 Bulls
2340 Cows

Thre years from now-
1350 Bulls
3150 Cows

With a 50% increase every year from the cows-
1575 new elk, half being bulls, 788, half being cows 788,

We are well below objectives this plan has room for more opportunity. I used such a low number of 50% to allow for deaths due to predators, winter kills and such. There is still room to grow, these #'s are tough to argue and am sure everyonr on the fence can see the opportunity now. Every 2-3 years will happen! """"

Those numbers are CRAP...

There is no way that the fishlake has 2160 bulls on it right now!!! Not even including spikes...

I would be hard pressed to beleive that there is even 1000 bulls. Maybe 500 including spikes.

Go ahead, convince me other wise.

elkantlers

Down with Int.400
 
Pro and Hogan,

When and where will you present this information next?
Do you plan to show data on what kind of bulls would likely be harvested on these units? and break down the projected odds?

I think this kind of information would be very helpful to look at.
 
Where do YOU come up with those numbers? Why are you arguing with me about numbers provided to you/me from the DWR? Take it up with them, smart one. 500 bulls including spikes, are you saying they issued more tags on that unit than there are total elk? Freakin brilliant. I am at a lose as to how best to respond to such 'intelligence'.

PRO
 
Our next meeting is April 19th at the Utah Archery Center at 6:00 pm. We have invited the DWR Big Game Coordinator to attend as a guest and hopefully answer some questions. We will have meetings atleast monthly between now and the November RAC's. We will post the dates and locations when they are decided. We are hoping to set meetings up in locals such as Richfiled and other 'rural' locations.

PRO
 

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