INITIATIVE 400

Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

I cannot believe the DWR would post such false information! I mean a couple of hundred off is one thing but we are talking thousands of elk off! Unacceptable! Heads are going to roll!

I think the # of elk may be off but not as much as you think, and being implemented in phases, will help out anyways!
 
Calm down a little PRO most of these guys might have high points and just want out of this game before any changes are made it makes them nervous when higher tag numbers might be given.he he,
See ya on the mountain maybe this year and you can share your knowledge with me..about elk.
Good luck on your 400,
THE BIRD
 
I sat around and read this long enough. Pro, why do you find it necessary to call people with concerns idiots, morons, and such? For someone trying to gain public support you sure like calling the public supporters idiots. Believe it or not, you just might learn something from someone else by listening rather than posting 5 minutes later by telling them how they do not know their ass from a hole in the ground and how damn dumb they are.

HOGAN and Treehugger,

Do you two have a mind of your own? All I see is someone tugging your puppet strings.

Part of me says MAYBE this could work ON 5 UNITS ONLY! However, I would be damned if I would support something my arm was twisted on by being called an idiot. I know for a fact a bunch of people have a lot more invested into Fishlake elk, Wasatch elk, and so forth that a few guys on the internet trying to change the units 180 degrees.
 
How are you guys planning on dealing with putting in for other species. If you put in for one type of elk tag does that mean you can't put in for Limited entry deer or antelope. Is there a general season category and Limited entry?

If taking the rifle hunt out of the rut will reduce success so much why did the late Wasatch and Nebo go away?
Have other late hunts showed that much less success?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-22-07 AT 07:16PM (MST)[p]Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

Hey BIG thanks for the post, Yes you must choose, LE Deer, LE Elk, LE pronghorn, or controlled elk. We are thinking by taking the rifle hunt out of the rut and increasing tag #'s that the success rate drops. NM has a similar situation with season dates and # of tags, that success rate is 44%

KTC-As far as being a puppet let me ask Pro on how to answer that one. If you are happy sitting behind your computer and doing nothing then fine. Pro really has not name called only when being called something first. It is comments like yours that do not help, if you don't like the plan then OK! But if you have conductive critisim then I would like to hear it.
 
That was conductive critisism. A lesson of social skills. Does being a part of this Initiative qualify one as doing something? Pulling your pud is doing something.;-)

Like I said, I am on a waiting period so people with points have a say I do not.
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

What you do on your own time is your buisness. You would be able to apply next year if it is implemented next year. Point holders could put in as well but their points do not count nor would they lose them if they do draw. So now what critisism do you have for this plan? I think for myself. Thanks for the advise anyways.
 
The only critisism I have is your attitude and the struggling mule deer. People have thoughts and concerns and you guys are trying to ram this down everyone's throat whether it is good or bad.

Enough said.
 
fdPUDhunter!!!

YOU CAN KISS MY TAIL!!!

I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF YOUR BULL$HIT!!!

I HAVEN'T EVEN POSTED ON THIS THREAD & YOU'VE STILL GOT YOUR PIE HOLE RUNNING AS USUAL!!!

I PROMISED Founder I WOULDN'T OFFER TO SETTLE IT OFF OF MM BUT ITS HARD TO DO WITH JACKASSES LIKE YOURSELF!!!

THE ONLY bobcat REPLYING TO A JACKASS THAT CAN'T STAND TO KNOW WE HAVE BIG STINKY'S!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-22-07 AT 08:49PM (MST)[p]Hogan wrote....

"""" Now-

Fishlake- 4500 total elk
2160 Bulls
2340 Cows

Thre years from now-
1350 Bulls
3150 Cows

With a 50% increase every year from the cows-
1575 new elk, half being bulls, 788, half being cows 788, """
.
.

I will say it again, there is no way in heck there are 585 (2340 X .25 From your "Now" fishlake numbers) bull calves being born each spring on the Fishlake. One reason is that not every cow will have a calf every year. You tell me one time that you have seen a herd of elk in the summer that has had one calf for every cow. It just dosen't happen. I wish it did, but it doesn't.


Another thing, moving the hunt dates around to get the rifle hunt out of the rut will not lower the success rates enough to matter.

The early Fishlake rifle hunt had a 94.4% success rate.

The Fishlake Muzzleloader hunt (9-26 to 10-04 pretty much out of the rut, and a primitive weapon hunt) had a 92.9% success rate. That is a 1.5% difference. Not enough to matter.

The trouble with your numbers is that you are trying to make them say something that is just not going to happen.

elkantlers

Down with Int.400
 
All of the late hunts that were out of the rut had pretty comparable success ratios compared to the rut hunt.


They didn't necesarrily go down because the hunt was out of the rut.


The only way success rates will go down is by depleating the supply of bulls.

I thought they stopped the Wasatch late hunt because it was too successful. But I could be wrong on why it got Kaboshed.


I think I-400 should combine Utah and Colorado into one state. Awesome deer and Elk, and oppurtunity. Utarado would make everybody happy.
 
BIRD, thanks for the thought out post.

ktc, who peed in your cheerios today? Get off your high horse and take a look in the mirror. I will defend my motives and intent when it is brought into question, even by your 'holiness'. If someone accused you of being a liar and pulling numbers out of your A##, how would you respond? "Hey thanks for the input, it is nice to get feedback from those with concerns and opposition to I400", "please continue to assail my character and ridicule our plan, it is so nice to receive 'constructive' critisism". How is that? Better?

If you want a civil discourse, all who chime in need to be CIVIL, not just one side. You calling some puppets is civil in your book I suppose. Two guys smarter than you or I are accused of being told ehat to do/say by me. I am flattered by the power you percieve me to be. WOW.

PRO
 
First, this is for 5 units ONLY. Does everybody undersatnd that? BIRD, I would never support, little lone start, any proposal that lowers the quality statewide. I am addicted to 400 bulls myself.

Second, the late rifle seasons take place while bulls are on winter range, this increases the vulnerability for the bulls on certain units. Moving the rifle hunt into October WILL lower success rates. Right now, you only have to get on a ridge and listen to locate bulls on EVERY LE unit during the rifle season, make rifle hunters 'hunt' and the success rates WILL go down. Last time I checked, Arizona has some 'decent' sized bulls with much lower success rates during thier rifle seasons. If the bulls are hunted every year during a certain time of year, they will wise up, look at cows hunted in the late seasons, they have adjusted their patterns to survive the cow hunts. The success rates have decreased as cows 'wise' up.

Third, I welcome 'critisism' to I400, I do NOT welcome, nor shouold I have to, personal attacks and half-baked claims that have no merit or substance to support ridiculous claims. Give us something of substance that relates to the actual proposal, and I will be 'civil', I promise.

PRO
 
We all know your plan is for "five units only." You have said that a dozen times. What part of "we don't want this on any unit" don't you understand.

Pro wrote
"I would never support, little lone start, any proposal that lowers the quality statewide. I am addicted to 400 bulls myself."

So are you admitting that this proposal will only lower the quality on those 5 units that your group has selected.

Pro wrote
"If the bulls are hunted every year during a certain time of year, they will wise up, look at cows hunted in the late seasons, they have adjusted their patterns to survive the cow hunts. The success rates have decreased as cows 'wise' up."

Do you expect me to believe that elk have the ability to plan in advance for an upcoming hunt and adjust their patterns accordingly. They are ANIMALS. They are not capable of that kind of reasoning. Elk use the same patterns year after year. That is why you see people sitting the same ridges, watching the same canyons, and pushing the same sets of trees year after year. I killed three elk in three different years within 250yds of each other, and it would have been four if I had drawn another tag. So why did they keep coming back to the same place every year? Because there was food, water, cover and they don't have the ability to remember what happened a year ago. let alone plan for it.



elkantlers

Down with Int.400
 
I guess I will stick with Wyoming where I can hunt with a bow the entire month of Septmeber during the rut and if I do not harvest can hunt the entire month of October with my rifle.Yes this is 2 full months of elk hunting.
PRO,
What do you think of this type of management?
I know what I think its great to draw a good tag.
Like I said good luck on your elk management ideas,
You might have better luck not ripping on everyone that does not agree with your plan.
Wish me luck in Wyoming there is other states that allow youth to hunt.
 
JUST WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE THERE PRO???

JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

WTF???

I'VE SUGGESTED MANY A TIMES!!!

START YOUR OWN DAMN PISSCUTTER UNITS & MANAGE THEM JUST HOW YOU WANT TO!!!

YOU START SCREWIN WITH THE LE UNITS & ME & YOU'VE GOT PROBLEMS!!!

ALONG WITH ALOT OF OTHERS HERE!!!

THERES ALOT OF PLACES YOU CAN GO PISSCUTTIN!!!

YOU AIN'T DOING IT IN LE UNITS!!!

TAKE THAT ####IN PLAN RIGHT BACK TO THE WET DREAM TABLE!!!

THE ONLY bobcat NOT CHANGING HIS MIND JUST BECAUSE THE PISSCUTTIN OPPORTUNISTS THINK THEY OWN THE LE UNITS!!!
 
elkantlers wrote:
"So are you admitting that this proposal will only lower the quality on those 5 units that your group has selected"

NO, I am saying that only five units will be affected. That is different altogether.

elkantlers wrote:
"Do you expect me to believe that elk have the ability to plan in advance for an upcoming hunt and adjust their patterns accordingly. They are ANIMALS. They are not capable of that kind of reasoning. Elk use the same patterns year after year. That is why you see people sitting the same ridges, watching the same canyons, and pushing the same sets of trees year after year. I killed three elk in three different years within 250yds of each other, and it would have been four if I had drawn another tag. So why did they keep coming back to the same place every year? Because there was food, water, cover and they don't have the ability to remember what happened a year ago. let alone plan for it."

I don't expect anything from you. But, I have seen elk alter their patterns due to huunting pressure. I see hunters drive right by some of the most productive hunting areas to go to the 'old' areas that hold very few elk because over the years th elk have find new 'safety zones'. Here in Tooele County, they have cow hunts that go clear thru January, the cows stay high longer than the bulls, before they had these late cow tags, the cows came down around the same time as the bulls. It is called survival instincts.

Tell me why Arizona and New Mexico have quality bulls with lower rifle success rates? Are their elk smarter? Or is it because they don't put the most effective weapon in the hills during the middle of September? Elk are capable of 'adapting' to danger and peril. The examples of such 'learned' behavior are many.

bird wrote:
"I guess I will stick with Wyoming where I can hunt with a bow the entire month of Septmeber during the rut and if I do not harvest can hunt the entire month of October with my rifle.Yes this is 2 full months of elk hunting.
PRO,
What do you think of this type of management?
I know what I think its great to draw a good tag.
Like I said good luck on your elk management ideas,
You might have better luck not ripping on everyone that does not agree with your plan.
Wish me luck in Wyoming there is other states that allow youth to hunt."

Good luck in Wyoming. I have never hunted there, but I have in Idaho under a similar setup. I like it in alot of ways. I just don't think it would get support here at this time. This is a step toward that type of system. I am just following BESSY's advice, and making 'opportunitists' areas. I will try and be 'kinder' to tarded posts.

PRO
 
Bess wrote:

"I'VE SUGGESTED MANY A TIMES!!!

START YOUR OWN DAMN PISSCUTTER UNITS & MANAGE THEM JUST HOW YOU WANT TO!!!

YOU START SCREWIN WITH THE LE UNITS & ME & YOU'VE GOT PROBLEMS!!!"

There are 28 LE units as of today, if we 'take' five from you as you put it, that still leaves you with 82% of the LE units. You say to start our own "PISSCUTTER" units, that is what we are doing. You say I cant have any of 'your' LE units, so what areas am I 'allowed' to work with? Downtown SLC, Provo, and Ogden? You gotta give me something. This will NOT turn these 5 units into "PISSCUTTER" units, we want to keep quality high, while maximizing the number of mature bull tags that can be given out. Notice I didn't say maximize the number of mature bulls that can be killed. By moving the rifle hunt into October, like most states aroound us do(ALL), we can issue more tags and still kill the same number of bulls. Now, stop killing spikes, this will put more bulls into the mix, again increasing the number of mature bull tags that can be issued W/O sacrificing quality. Where am I wrong? Be nice, I am trying to be, myself.

PRO
 
PRO I think this was written just for you.



How to Win Friends and Influence People
This is Dale Carnegie's summary of his book, from 1936

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Table of Contents
Fundamental Techniques in Handling People
Six Ways to Make People Like You
How to Win People to Your Way of Thinking
Be a Leader: How to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part One
Fundamental Techniques in Handling People
Don't criticize, condemn or complain.
Give honest and sincere appreciation.
Arouse in the other person an eager want.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part Two
Six ways to make people like you
Become genuinely interested in other people.
Smile.
Remember that a person's name is to that person the sweetest and most important sound in any language.
Be a good listener. Encourage others to talk about themselves.
Talk in terms of the other person's interests.
Make the other person feel important - and do it sincerely.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part Three
Win people to your way of thinking
The only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it.
Show respect for the other person's opinions. Never say, "You're wrong."
If you are wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically.
Begin in a friendly way.
Get the other person saying "yes, yes" immediately.
Let the other person do a great deal of the talking.
Let the other person feel that the idea is his or hers.
Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view.
Be sympathetic with the other person's ideas and desires.
Appeal to the nobler motives.
Dramatize your ideas.
Throw down a challenge.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part Four
Be a Leader: How to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment
A leader's job often includes changing your people's attitudes and behavior. Some suggestions to accomplish this:
Begin with praise and honest appreciation.
Call attention to people's mistakes indirectly.
Talk about your own mistakes before criticizing the other person.
Ask questions instead of giving direct orders.
Let the other person save face.
Praise the slightest improvement and praise every improvement. Be "hearty in your approbation and lavish in your praise."
Give the other person a fine reputation to live up to.
Use encouragement. Make the fault seem easy to correct.
Make the other person happy about doing the thing you suggest.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-22-07 AT 11:29PM (MST)[p]Thanks BIG, I pasted that and will use it as a reference to help me along the path. I get caught up in the 'moment' and fall into the trap of lowering myself to others levels, instead of trying to respond in a positive way. Guilty as charged. I guess after getting hammered here and on the DWR site, I sometime just swing back, instead of acting with the dignity this proposal deserves. Thank you.

I will gladly answer any questions or concerns about I400, I will refrain from responding as I have today. A bad day for me in real life is no excuse for my actions here. My sincere apologies. My bad.

PRO
 
I am certainly 'scared to even post' as what I type may not be with in the guidelines of allowable interpretations.

I suppose I should PM...

PROabuse..

and get his edit for content approval before I even type anything.. and post it.

How come some of your group have two different handles on here but are the same guy...


dear god er--a-- PROabuse

forgive me if that isn't with in the acceptable question catagory.

Robb
 
THEM ARE BIG PEOPLE THAT HAVE 2-5 DIFFERENT NAMES!!!

WTF???

I'M SUGGESTING YOU START YOUR OWN LE UNITS FROM SCRATCH Pro!!!

THE SAME WAY THE EXISTING LE UNITS WERE STARTED!!!

MANAGE THEM AS YOU WISH!!!

CAN YOU IMAGINE ALL THE PISSCUTTIN OPPORTUNISTS YOU'D MAKE HAPPY???

JUST REMEMBER ONE THING!!!

YOU CAN'T MAKE THEM ALL HAPPY BUT I SAY GO AHEAD GIT-R-DONE!!!

SOMEBODY'S ALWAYS LOOKIN FOR AN EASY WAY IN!!!

LEAVE THE EXISTING L.E. UNITS ALONE & START YOUR OWN UNITS!!!

CALL THEM AGE OBJECTIVE UNITS!!!

CALL THEM MANAGEMENT UNITS!!!

HAVE SPIKE HUNTS!!!

HAVE COW HUNTS!!!

HAVE MILK ON THEIR LIP HUNTS!!!

HUNT THEM LATE INTO FEBUARY!!!

HELL,HUNT THEM YEAR AROUND!!!

HAVE 50 DIFFERENT HUNTS IN ONE YEAR IF YOU'D LIKE!!!

AND WE'LL JUST SEE IF YOU CAN SATISFY EVERYBODY WITH THE ALMIGHTY PISSCUTTER!!!

THE ONLY bobcat BEING NICE & HOLDING HIS COOL BUT ITS HARD AT TIMES!!!
 
Bess, thanks for being nice. As for some having multiple user names, I know nothing about it, I have a hard time just logging in.

The state has 28 LE units, we are looking at 5 of them. Right now, the majority of the state is managed for a minority of the hunters, we are just looking at ways to manage SOME of these areas to be managed for a larger % of elk hunters in Utah. Give more options to ALL hunters, not just us trophy hunters. I have no intention of ever hunting any of these five units, but I talk with alot of hunters fed up with having to what 10-20 years just to hunt mature bulls. I know you will tell me to tell them to hunt the any-bull areas, but what is the success rate, and what if all 45,000 people who don't draw out this year hit the S Slope? Most hunters have no clue as to the difference between a 330 bull and a 380 bull unless they are standing next to each other. Why force them to apply for the same tags as those who do? If there are hunters who would be happy with a 330 bull, why not have units that are managed for that type of bull? The whole state doesn't need to be managed for a few trophy hunters. This plan gives more opportunity while maintaining quality on MOST, if not all, of the LE units.

Robb, I said last night I would try and be nicer, so I won't respond at all to your post. When you are ready to talk and discuss the merits and weaknesses of I400, let me know. I would be happy to do so.

PRO
 
For those against I400, I would like you to provide proof that the plan can't work. Keep in mind that proof is not emotional! I want to see some hard numbers backed up by other strategies etc. I did attend a meeting held by pro and I400 group, I have spent 27 years studying, hunting, filming elk they are my passion. I will go to my grave preaching that unless Utah adjusts there elk managment plan, and starts harvesting more bulls we will see a crash with some units returning to the days of old. I400 has been researched and thought out, IMO it deserves it's day in court. Let it be presented through the system, the paid professionals can determine it's worth.
For those of you who are working on I400 I would counsel you again to quit worrying about defending a proposal on the internet, polish it and go to the RAC's.
For those that oppose it quit your whining, spend the time and come up with a better idea, polish it and go to the RAC's.
For those of you who believe in leaving things the way they are: You obviously know nothing about elk management other than a selfish need to kill a 400 bull. Leaving things they way they are is a recipe for disaster, I believe even the DWR has indicated such as each year they are trying new solutiuons. Unfortunately it is the whiners who are preventing progress.
 
People compare the LATE LE hunt with early oct hunt?? Completly different game. The idea of I400 is good, the tag #'s can be altered year to year. Funny how people want to criticize but can't take it in return.
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

Good post! Seems the dude calling poeple puppets, has problems at home.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-07 AT 11:23AM (MST)[p]The problem I have with I400 is that it does not address the problem units. I doubt, thru my experiences, that a unit such as the Nebo will "crash". They harvest a sufficient number of bulls off the unit and the bull cow ratio on the Nebo is not extreme. The problem units that MulePacker is talking about are the units that I400 proposes to protect. This program will not be proposed for the 8-10 High-End units which could crash because of the inches management.

I showed hard facts in a previous post concerning the Nebo unit. In no way can the Nebo handle the proposed 1,000 big bull tags. You have to figure at least 700 of those tags will be a gun hunt and at a low 50% success rate the proposal would kill 350 bulls + whatever the 300 or so archers would shoot. The calf recruitment on that unit (for a herd of 1,500 animals) stands around 250 bulls per year. Maybe it could handle 300 tags with a low success rate, but even that would plaster the bull population of the herd.

Off of 1 unit I can see a 70% reduction in the proposed opportunity. And to do that people will give up their current elk hunting opportunity. (I have never bought a spike tag)

Did I mention before that we should manage to the current age objectives?
 
Dude? Blow it out of your ass HOGAN. You claim to be doing something. I told you doing something is pulling your pud, possibly an I400 circle jerk.

Come on HOGAN, come up with something original. You act like the kid that eggs on fights then ends up getting his ass kicked.

Yes HOGAN, YOU ARE A PUPPET.
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

Again with the name calling, just like the kids did once in school, they shut their mouths fast after getting my foot ip their a$$. Why do you bring your home issues on to this forum? Is it because you have no say at home? Or maybe a tornado carried it away? If I am a puppet, what are you a puppeteer? You fit the role, hand up guys asses! Get real KFC and don't
F^#@* with me! You don't like the proposal what would you do to fix it?
 
You can't kick that high to put anything near my ass HOGAN. In fact, stay away from my ass fruit cake.

Come see my tornado ridden yard smart ass. If you are referring to my trailer nice try. You would retire if you had my "trailer court."

I never said I did not like the proposal. Go back and read. I do not like your attitute. I really do not like pricks like you threatening me either.
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

LOL, You asked for it! I did not threaten you, take it easy, I do not like dudes like you talking down to me. You want call it truce cool but don't question my character and expect nothing in return!
 
How can we manage to age objectives? The age class is determined through harvest data, harvest is a choice of the hunter. Therefore making age data invalid. Otherwise as a hunter I may see 50 immature bulls on my hunt which I pass up. The next bull I see is a six point and I shoot it, after my tag is filled I see 10 400" bulls but can not harvest because my tag is filled. My Harvest (tooth) is not a valid way to determine the age class of the 61 bulls I observed on my unit. I am only aware of 1 place in the state of Utah where an average age of bulls could be a possibility. That is the S. Cache unit, a large enough sample of these elk winter at Hardware Ranch that age or trend data could be established through trapping and tagging. However, I don't beleive the DWR is tagging elk anymore.
Age class simply is an indicator as to whether there are enough bulls of a particular age class that hunters have an acceptable chance of shooting one.
 
How many people need to say something is wrong with the numbers on Fishlake, before someone decides they should be looked at again.
 
Here are my thoughts to an over objective/high bull to cow ratio;

Just for arguments sake, if Pahvant is 1:1 bull to cow and this ratio needs to be in check, why not issue more tags to get it in check? I know this has been proposed 100 times. The problem I have, because I do like the high quality, the DWR will never trim tags back to rebuild the high quality. I hunted a premium unit in Wyoming and this is exactly what happens. The elk herd gets to big, they trim it back through hunting, then trim back the tags.

In my opinion, Utah has/uses no flexibility in tag numbers. If they give X amount of tags for a unit you can put that in stone and leave it there. I do not see the need for "special hunts" just sound management with sound goals in mind.

I do not know how to balance herd ratios, keep numbers in check, and produce world class animals?
 
Nice to see ktc and my 'puppet' make peace. I hope, since I like both people, most of the time. Mulepacker is not a puppet either, he IS one with experience and firsthand knowledge on this topic. I see most of the grief coming from those who don't undersatnd what we are proposing. I will offer again my willingness to explain this in detail, either thru PM's, here, or by phone(just shoot me a PM and I will call you), or if you happen to be near St George next weekend,stop by and chat. Some dedicated sportmen have put alot of effort and research into this proposal, please try and look at it for what it is, not what it isn't.

None of the numbers are set in stone, on the Fishlake and Nebo the concerns that have been brought up have been noted, and will be addressed at the next meeting. We are not in the habit of changing numbers based on one or two vague inputs, we prefer to discuss this in person, hammer out the numbers and see what comes out. I promise, we will look at the numbers on these units extra close.

Mulepacker makes a great point on managing to 'age objectives', that is why we have to decided to push this with herd objectives along with age objectives, instead of just age objectives. This was driven home at the last meeting mainly by Mulepacker, who isn't even one of the 'founders', just someone who saw something he liked and chimed in and has made it better.

PRO
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

Tay I spoke with you about the Fishlake unit and will address these #'s in the next meeting. April 19th, I will probabley see you there so we can go over them together.

ktc, they are issuing more tags on more units all the time. But not enough! Fishlake had a total of 90 last year and they are upping that # to 100 this year. Like someone said before these are not LE tags. We would like too issue too many tags, sound funny but the more people you get on a unit the lower the success rate. All these # are not set in stone and are questionable. There is a line not to be crossed for a balanced system. Right down to tag #'s, and weapon % #'s. Give most to rifle, most applicants will be rifle.

In one of the meetings I asked if permits were given out 33-33-33 who would hunt what, the answer was pretty split up. I400 will help everybody's odds! Deer odds, bonus point odds, all odds! It will help Utah be more balanced instead of statewide OIL hunts!
 
KTC,
IMO you can't when you expect world class animals to be one in ten. That is what many Utah sportsman are fighting for. If there are 30 tags issued do we expect 3 world class bulls to be shot. From MM threads it appears that many of you do.
World class animals should be 1 in a thousand, 1 in ten thousand or 1 in 100 thousand?
If we truly cared about long term viability of our herds we would fight not for world class animals but for good ratios within the management objectives. Would a few world class animals still exist sure. Keep in mind Montana, Wyoming, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada shoot 400 bulls every year but they are few and far between. I can show you two 390 plus bulls that came off a unit in Idaho that issues per year 750 bull tags, unlimited archery tags and 1500 plus cow tags and is not near the size of a number of units in Utah. Did the guy who shot these bulls simply luck into them? Heck no, he scouted, prepared as any good hunter would do, that is how a world class animal should be shot. Not by some pisscutter who lived long enough to win the lottery and then had a posse of friends that would never get the chance willing to go and surround one of the world class bulls so the pisscutter could come in and shoot it. Yes I have a different defintion of a pisscutter, a hunter who expects a 400 bull instead of earning a 350 bull.
 
How many times does it have to be said that the I400 groups research indicates these units can handle the projected harvest, before you listen? Everything is a two way street I have an opinion, you have an opinion.
Some of you may know I initiated and presented the AR301 hunt. It took me five years from the first time I stood in a public meeting and presented the plan before there ever was a hunt. I am not arguing the credibility or fate of AR301. I just believe I have a little knowledge and experience with Utah's process. Don't fault someone for trying simply because you do not agree. If you are sure of yourself jump in the game it is open to everyone. Don't try to change the other team after they have practiced, bought uniforms and paid the league fee. If you are sitting on the sideline you area simply a spectator and whether you cheer or boo will not have much effect on the outcome.
 
I agree, this should be something that will take in criticism, examine it, and look at objectively, but there has been harsh criticism on both sides.
 
I will say you boys are right thqt age objectives can not be the sole data to manage herds. But it isn't the only data, just the most visible. The biologists do use past data, such as calf recruitment, bull cow ratios and so on. The age data could be readily used to produce the management of the herd. The key to age data is continually managing and giving tags to find the area of harvest which corresponds to the Calf Recruitment and Bull/Cow Ratios.

It is not sufficient to say we want an age class of 6-7 year old bulls harvested. They could issue 1 tag and if a 6 year old bull gets killed then they met their objectives. The key is to continue to increase tags until a statistical change downward takes place. All units should see a substantial increase in tags (soory KTC) until the average age falls to the low end of the objective. Simply managing some tags which fall in the objective is not enough. Every year should see substantial tag increases of 20-100% or more until the average ages fall. Then the biologists should take into account past calf counts, harvest data, and age objectives to determine tag numbers.

It is far too difficult and expensive to accurately count bull / cow ratios to successfully determine herd stability. In 2004, the Fish Lake count, under good conditions, observed over 760 bulls. In 2005 the conditions were not as favorable and the count was only 400. While spike recruitment stood at around 100 and only 76 bulls were harvested.

Managing to age objectives is not simply killing one 6 year old bull off the Manti and saying "We met objective". It is issueing permits to a point were one can see a statistical change downward. Unfortunately, Utah biologists have not been allowed to manage the herds. The public input at the RACs and Board have tied the UDWR hands when more tags are proposed.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-07 AT 01:32PM (MST)[p]"Some dedicated sportmen have put alot of effort and research into this proposal, please try and look at it for what it is, not what it isn't"

Prooutdoors, I could not have said it better myself.
I hope this helps others gain a respect regardless of which side of the fence they are on. I look forward to your day at The RAC's best of luck!


Packout,

I appreciate your perspective and input and agree whole heartedly that age data can be a factor. I also believe that because of the spotlight it receives it becomes one the limiting factors in the RAC process. I believe the management plans would be better served if age data wasn't weighted so heavy by the public. Again it is biased data.

Travis
 
Quate

"Did I mention before that we should manage to the current age objectives?"

I disagree, we should manage to herd objectives not age objectives.
 
In all honesty, I applaud the efforts by those working on this. I would like a healthy herd and top quuality. Looking back I see great elk hunting in Utah which causes myself to ask if it is not broke don't fix it. It is broke in some aspects. People need to move through the system. Giving out 100 management tags without using points was a very dumb move. Revamping the application system is yet another tool to help the problem.

I do not buy the 1:1 ratio. I do not buy the dying of old age problem. I also do not buy into each 14 year old needing to kill a 350 bull. MP, while the world class bulls are plentiful by other state's standards, I do not believe it to be 1 in 3?

This topic is heated and rears it's ugly head every year in Utah. Certainly there are lots of people who know more about elk biology than I. I try to stay level headed (although I go nuts sometimes) because I see people who will never draw, I see youth with no chance, I see people who are point heavy who want big bulls, and I see this being a fight every year. Honestly, if I never kill another elk I am fine with that. If I want meat I will shoot a cow. I also have mature bull options open in other states where I have points.

I hope you guys can hammer this out to make almost everyone happy. If you can, my hat is off to you.
 
Thanks Ty. I believe you and I agree on this more than either cares to admit. I tend to "go nuts at times" as well. That passion is what has motivated me to be a part of this. I see alot of good with the current system, but I see areas that NEED change. That is what we are trying to address with I400. One area I disagree with is on bulls dying of old age. On the unit you drew a tag for last year, how many bulls do you think are on the unit today? How many of them will be killed this fall? How many will be left over? Now, add in the new 'recruitment' of bulls into the herd, how many will be on the mountain next spring based on the number of bulls killed by hunters? What happens to all those 'leftover' bulls? I have seen/heard people say bulls don't die of old age since they haven't found any on the mountain dead. How many dead cow elk do these same people find each year? Yet we know cows are dying of old age, right?

PRO
 
PRO,
I also like the system in place now but I have high points this could be why I can fly off the handle on this also.If its only for 5 units maybe see how well it works on those units and if it does not work out we can always go back to the old school of elk management that makes those antlers grow so large.
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

I think the older bulls winter kill. They take up valuable resources of food and the weaker ones die off. If we were to harvest a few of these bulls some of the less weaker ones could make it another year. Don't you guys think that if there were a group of 30 bulls on a winter range and 8 of them died off, that if we would of harvested 4 or 5 of them that the others would increase their chance of survival?
 
Why shouldn't people that are point heavy want a shot at a great unit? They have put their time in with no tags!

I have waited a long time to draw a tag and the last thing that I want to see when I finally draw is orange on every ridge.
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

Absolutley WarBird! If this system is a bust I am certain I speak for Pro too that we would be the first ones to squash it. We just want to try something new. We don't want to mess with the true trophy areas. That will help your odds in the current system. By doing the preference point system you will have to pick which one you will apply for, bonus OR preference, helping your odds, even helping LE deer odds!
 
>Why shouldn't people that are point
>heavy want a shot at
>a great unit? They have
>put their time in with
>no tags!
>
>I have waited a long time
>to draw a tag and
>the last thing that I
>want to see when I
>finally draw is orange on
>every ridge.


Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

Which unit you applying for elkantlers? If it is the Wasatch you could draw on it under I400 after hunting this unit a few years and you decide you want a trophy you can then use your point and hunt San Juan or one of the premium areas.
 
HOGAN!!!

YOU'RE UP IN THE NIGHT!!!

MAYBE YOU COULD SUGGEST TO THE DWR WE ARE LOSING MASSIVE AMOUNT OF BULLS TO WINTER KILL!!!

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

SURE IT MIGHT HAPPEN BUT DAMN RARE!!!

8 OUT OF 30 AIN'T DIEING OFF, JACKASS!!!

KILLING THE BIG STINKYS OFF AIN'T CHANGING SURVIVAL RATES ON YOUNGER BULLS!!!

WAKE TF UP!!!

YOU'VE DEFINATELY HAD A WET ELK DREAM!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING SOME OF YOU SHOULD REALLY KEEP YOUR LIPS ZIPPED!!!
 
EA,

If you are referring to my remark about being point heavy I totally agree. You should have a great hunt without orange. You did put in your time. This was my argument last year. I felt I had done my time and waited patiently. I feel the same way for those behind me.
 
The proposed plan for these 5 units looks like a good place to start. If it doesn't work like proposed it could be tweaked in the first few years to accomplish the intended goals or eliminated completely if it doesn't work.

How about also managing LE units like the Pahvant,San Juan and Southwest Desert, Etc. to Herd objectives and allowing an addition 10-20 tags for these LE units?
That would also help the bottle neck and move some people through the system who want to kill a big Bull.

I've heard too many say Bulls are dying of old age on some of these units that a few more tags wouldn't hurt at all.
 
Bart--- concerning your post # 124...

Thank you.. so am I... I just am alot better at pitching in and helping folks than I ever am at negative yip and yap.

You don't have to, but please accept my apology to you and your hard working group that put this all together from the DWR site.

I am in vote catagory # 2, as I have stated, as in I would vote for this but would like a few changes... actually only one.... 3 'prototype' units instead of the 5 units... any of the 5 down to 3 would work as you guys have more of a pulse on all the numbers than most of us.

Robb

PS.. hey Clynt-Uthunting- your an okay guy.. 'forget about it'...
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

Bess- I am awake! Open your eyes. If there are 1500 bulls in a unit and they give out 100 tags a year, unless those bulls can live 15 years, what do you think is happening to them? UFO's? Take a walk in the wintering areas and go get yourself some sheds. Youll see! There aint nothing wrong with a wet elk dream, youve had em! WTF! Talk down to me like your a biologist, try again, try some other sap! I am just trying to better the elk herd and elk hunt and you bash me? At least I have the balls to try and work on something to improve the elk herd. It wasn't me that pissed in your cherrios, so don't blame me!
 
MULE DEER,
Thats where we need to see some major changes.
Oh wait that would cut tags way back we cant have that little Johnny wont get to hunt mule deer often enough or maybe never in his lifetime.
Put some money on the ground cut deer tag numbers way back and put money on the ground big time where habitat is needed.
I think Utah has given up on the deer its always about the elk anymore and its getting old if you ask me.
More time and money should be spent on gettting some big ol stinking bucks back in Utah somehow someway.No I dont have the answers but those that know elk should know how to manage deer also dont you think?
I hate to change the subject elk is one of my favorite animals and I do care about what these changes will bring but deer need some much needed attention.
Question for PRO or anyone with tons of knowledge.
If more elk are killed would this help deer herds?
Its all about money but now if you are giving more elk permits away just give less deer tags away every deer that lives another season would be that much bigger the next year.
Can Utah have the very best of both animals and I am talking trophy animals?
 
BIRD, I believe so. So do the guys at MDF. We are meeting with them on I400 next week. I have had some good talks with Tony, Mike, and a few others. I believe the intent of I400 is about balance, I see no reason why it can't help balance for deer as well. I notice you said "Question for PRO 'or' anyone with tons of knowledge." Does that mean you think I don't have tons of knowledge? Because that would be correct. Don't answer that, I might be 'offended' by your response. J/K. I hope that I400 proves to be effective for elk and deer. I see no reason it has to be either one or the other. Again, I come back to balance.

PRO
 
PRO,
Did I say you dont have tons of knowledge?Dont go there,I asked a question of truth and thought you might have an answer seems like you always do on elk so why not deer?If you dont have the answer I am sure someone does on this subject, I sure in the hell dont but would like to see what others thoughts are on this.
I and many others would like to see mule deer get some attention if we are losing qaulity on elk units with these new plans.Lets now take these 5 elk units where there will be more tags given and make these units limited deer units and see what can happen.
What do you think that could do for qaulity on mule deer?
This is an honest question how many would go for this?
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

Good question Warbird! I really don't have an answer, but I would say I400 will not be any worse on the deer. We have not come up with a name for our group yet, but have entertained the idea of doing something about the deer, but not until after this elk proposal! Maybe you would want to play a larger role if we ever get that rolling?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-07 AT 07:53PM (MST)[p]Lets Roll,
Big mule deer even if it takes a few years would be great.
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

We will be concentrating on the task at hand, maybe come to the next meeting and get to know us, help out if you want on I400, after that we may move on the deer! The deer are also in need of assistance, but we have all ready started this.
 
I hate to say it but with my high elk points I just want out of this game on elk and dont mind what so ever to give the next guy in line a chance at harvesting a nice animal once I draw.
But deer is where the changes need to be made.I know Colorado did something right just take a look at how many hunters enjoy so many units with tons of deer to look over and limited hunters for the most part.
The over the counter tags should be a thing of the past its sad but true.If my son has to wait in line for elk and deer that is ok with him once he starts hunting coyotes it will be a blast and I can take him anytime I want to get his fill on being in the great outdoors and still get plenty of action on those critters.If not coyotes ,jack rabbits is great for younger hunters to get to know the safe use of weapons also.Like I said there is plenty of oppurtunity for everyone just get out there and hunt.Very limited permits do take time to draw the permit but your rewards on these hunts will get the younger and new hunters hooked for life, and the very limited permit when drawn even if it takes years will leave a mark that just cant be beat.
That is what its all about.
That is my opinion when family and freinds draw you might not get to pull the trigger but being out there helping can be just as rewarding as pulling the trigger plus you save money on taxidermy fees.HA
 
46048d9c5e81994c.jpg

Plenty of action to be had by youth hunters just get out there and hunt and wait patiently for your limited elk and deer permits.
The Bird
 
Bird, I put "J/K" in there. I do not consider myself a deer 'expert', but I am all for helping out on something that will help deer. When we meet with MDF, I will ask them about a few thoughts I have to help deer. If you have any, pass them on. I don't care what species it is, if it is huntable I am interested. Nice picture by the way. Are you on the left or right? I am working with the NWTF on a plan to be able to issue more turkey tags as well. I need to learn to say no once in a while. Like I said, I am willing to do my part to help 'hunters', I don't care what they hunt, if they hunt ethically and 'fair chase', I'll help where I can.

Back to I400, we are looking for data to help fine tune tag #'s for the different units. Any help or data will be greatly appreciated.

Robb, I am cool. Come to the meeting, I would like to put a face with the name. I have butted heads with several from BOU, most whom I now get along with pretty good. I look forward to being able to say the same about you.

PRO
 
I am on the right with the old 22-250 wood stock parker and hale.Thanks about the nice picture comment that was a good day in Nevada busting some dogs doing our best to help all we can with deer herds in that state.
 
460498c7036c1f3c.jpg

These are Wasatch bulls do you want larger bulls or smaller bulls that is the question.Most Wasatch bulls are this size now.Ask yourself do you want smaller bulls or larger bulls.
The Bird.
 
HOGAN!!!

WAKE TF UP!!!

ONE OF THE LE UNITS I SPEND ALOT OF TIME IN ONLY HAS AROUND 1000-1200 HEAD OF ELK TOTAL!!!

THESE AIN'T MY NUMBERS BUT THATS A GUESSTIMATE FROM THE DWR!!!

I GUESS I DON'T KNOW WHERE THEM UNITS ARE THAT HAVE 1500 BULLS???

YOU ARE TRYING TO BETTER THE LE ELK HERD,HUH!!!

HOW MANY ELK POINTS YOU GOT THERE HOGAN???

NOBODY PISSED IN MY CHERIO'S,I PISS IN OTHER PEOPLES CHERIO'S THOUGH!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING Wasatchfrontmuleys OUGHT TO WORRY ABOUT UTAH MULEYS!!!
 
All but one or two are 'pisscutters'. I would like to see the quality be geared to the majority of hunters on most of the units. What I mean is, not every unit needs piles of 380+ bulls on em. Most hunters in this state would shoot any of the bulls that carried those antlers in the picture. I wouldn't shoot any of them myself. That is why I want 8-10 units managed for bigger bulls, I just do not belive the whole state needs to be managed that way.

PRO
 
I dont think any units we have now have piles of 380 bulls on them now they might have the age but that does not get them over the 380 mark.The Wasatch bull sheds are and example for those to see first hand it just might give a better idea of what we have now and what we want to shrink in the long run of over hunting.If most would be happy with smaller bulls when they can draw in 5 years so be it let those be happy with smaller bulls than these on the fence.I want larger because there is larger on some units but for you to say there is piles of 380 bulls on any unit in UTAH that hits a nerve with me that is false.
The Bird
 
Bess, not to get in between your romance with HOGAN, but from the DWR provided numbers for 2005 (latest I could find):

Cache:2000
Morgan/S Rich:5100
East Canyon:1580
Chalk Creek:2010
S Slope Yellowstone:5300
S Slope Vernal:2260
Book Cliffs:2525
9 mile Range Creek:2000
LaSal:1900
San Juan:1400
Central Mt Manti:10,500
Central Mt Nebo:1580
Wasatch Mt:5200
Mt Dutton:1600
Fishlake:4000

Just a few that have 1500+, I threw in San Juan, because it is 'close'. I believe a few like the Wasatch are a little low, others might argue a few are a little high. Point is, there are many units that have 1500+ elk on them. All five of the units we picked are on the list above.

PRO
 
I saw two dozen+ 380 class bulls on one unit last fall. That fits my definition of 'piles'. I am pretty sure there are a few I 'missed' on that one unit. There are better units in the state than that one.

PRO
 
PRO,
I can only hope you are talking about the unit I should draw this year if I get lucky.That gets my blood pumping if you seen that many 380 plus bulls on the unit you know well.If its not the unit I put in for let me know I might have to change units if I dont draw this year.
It has to be a unit you want to see stay with qaulity right?
If you have any photos of those 380 plus bulls please send them to me I would sure like to look at them.I like those type of bulls alot.I will pm you my e-mail if you dont want to share the pics on MM.
 
Same unit, you have pretty decent odds to draw this year. I got them all on video, no still shots. Bossman has rights to the footage.

It is one of the 8-10 I want to be managed for high quality, very limited hunting. Let's put it this way, I applied for an archery tag on that unit this yr. If we both luck out, we'll have to go scouting together. How bout it?

PRO
 
Lets Go,
I need to go at the end of August will be hunting with my bow in Septmeber in Wyoming this year.
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

Sweet pics WarBird! I have never been coyote hunting, but am interested in trying, what caliber you spoting there? Did you call them yotes in?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-07 AT 11:22PM (MST)[p]That is the fun of the hunt calling them in and if I was to pick a rifle purchase a 22-250 but a .204 works great also.
Go out and try this hunt with youth when they cant draw good big game permits it is alot of fun.
 
HOGAN, look in his hand for the answer. I will take you out next winter, since you are taking my fishing in May. Deal? We can take a couple of kids out for a fun day chasing dogs in the west desert. I see them out there all the time while driving around in the work truck.

BIRD, put it on the calendar whether you draw or not. Looking at them big bulls is fun with or without a tag.

PRO
 
I will need some luck to draw seems like I never draw elk tags just ask ktc about my luck trying to draw elk permits.
 
PRO!!!

IF HOGAN SAID: "IF THERE ARE 1500 BULLS ON A UNIT"???

AND I QUOTE!!!

WELL IF THATS THE FRICKEN CASE MAYBE THERES UNITS THAT ARE 100% BULLS!!!

HELL!!!

WTF???

DON'T LOOK TO SEE IF HE'S GOT HORNS JUST SHOOT!!!

ITS GOT TO BE A 380"+ BULL EVEN THOUGH WE CAN'T SEE HIS HEAD,JUST SHOOT!!!

1500 BULLS ON MOST UNITS I'M CALLING BULL$HIT ON THAT ONE & I DON'T CARE WHO LIKES IT!!!

PRETTY SOON YOU PISSCUTTIN FOOLS WILL BRAINWASH YOURSELVES INTO BELIEVING A 3 BULLS PER 1 COW RATIO,WTF???

DID I TELL YOU I SEEN 2 BULLS ATOP ONE COW LAST FALL!!!

YES ITS TRUE,THERES SO FRICKEN MANY BULLS THEY'RE GANG BANGIN THE COWS NOW!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING MAYBE WE COULD HAVE A GANG BANG HUNT???
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

Mr. Bobcat sir-

I am sorry for the confunsion I have created you and will attempt to clear it up. If this only brings you great anger I will "zip my lip to you". I did not mean most units there are 1500 bulls on but there are plenty with this #. Fishlake, Manti, Dutton, Wasatch SanJuan just to name a few. Ialso never said the bull to cow ratio was 3 cows to 1 bull, but in some areas the ration is 1 bull to every 1 cow. The herd is struggling more than you may think. Sorry for the confusion and hope this has helped to clear my name, Joey Hogan.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-24-07 AT 10:40PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-24-07 AT 10:39?PM (MST)

I don't know where you are looking at, but where I play, the elk all are around this size on the Wasatch. The quality will go down the first couple of years but then it will level off to be about what it is now.

wasatchbulls.jpg

elk1.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-24-07 AT 11:50PM (MST)[p]I have to admit that is a huge unit the sheds came from a small wintering area on that unit and most are that size except for the larger ones I did not post.He He.
Anyone that knows the Wasatch unit knows there were some huge bulls killed on the late hunts.Oh wait that is out of the bugle season I wonder why there were larger bulls taken late than people get early.That hunt is eliminated now that is a good thing if you ask me.
Like I said nice elk in the photo good job, what year was that 2004?325-330 bulls look good on the wall but 380 look better.
 
DID I TELL YOU ABOUT THIS???

I SEEN A BULL ATOP ANOTHER BULL!!!

HE WAS A REAL SINNER!!!

I THOUGHT ONLY THE HUMAN BREED WERE SICK ENOUGH TO PULL THIS KINDA CRAP???

JUST REMEMBER ONE THING BOYS,WELL MAYBE A FEW THINGS!!!

IT TAKES ALOT OF YOUNGER/SMALLER BULLS TO MAKE A FEW BIG BULLS!!!

YOU CAN'T SATISFY ALL THE PISSCUTTIN OPPORTUNISTS NO MATTER HOW MANY HUNTS/PERMITS YOU ISSUE IN THE LE UNITS!!!

YOU COULD EASILY DESTROY ALL LE UNITS TRYING TO SATISFY 1/1000 OF THE PISSCUTTIN FOOLS IN THIS STATE!!!

REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED TO THE FISH LAKE UNIT???

DO YOU KNOW WHATS HAPPENED TO THE ANTHRO/ARGYLE UNIT???

DO YOU REMEMBER PISS POOR MANAGEMENT IN THE BOOK CLIFFS???

THE ONLY bobcat,AND YES I AM THE ONLY,SOME HAVE SAID THANK GOD THERES ONLY ONE bobcat!!!
 
bobcat wrote:

"IT TAKES ALOT OF YOUNGER/SMALLER BULLS TO MAKE A FEW BIG BULLS!!"

Exactly why I400 will not have any spike hunts, more young bulls making to maturity. I realize the fears some have over mis-management, that is why we are carefully moving along with this, instead of going overboard.

PRO
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

We will be having our next meeting if anyone is interested in attending please call me or pm me.

April 19th, Thursday at 6 p.m. Utah Archery Center 60 East 4070 South. Sponsored by UBA, Jerry Slaugh would like a head count to know how much pizza to buy. Also Anise Aude, the Big Game Coordinator has committed to being there. Pleasa feel free to come and express how you feel about the plan. Thanks, Joey Hogan. 801-455-3745 [email protected]
 
I think the plan could be workable, but the numbers should start out a lot less than proposed, otherwise we could end up with an over harvest that takes years to rebuild. I would also like to see the muzzy dates Sept 22nd-29th and the archery August 25th-Sept 18th. This would allow both primitive parties an the oppurtunity to hunt the rut and would allow the muzzy guys to have the elk to themselves before the mtn is swarmed with the muzzy deer hunters. Likewise the archery deer hunt would end a week before the elk hunt also giving the archery guys less pressure.

Mike
 
I'm not a player in UT but it's always a lot easier to add tags then it is to have to rebuild after killing too many.
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

Thanks for the comments!

The dates are still being played with, the only one set in stone is the rifle. We will consider your statement!

As for tag #'s, these are the numbers we want to give out when it is in full swing. It would be unfair to elk, that don't know they are being hunted yet, to send that many hunters after them. We plan on phasing this in, something like 60% the first year, 80% second, and full swing the third. Still deciding how to phase it in, but I agree it must be phased in or it would be a slaughter.
 
PRO & Hogan I believe you have learned a few things from here to take back into your studies to help polish up your idea, After reading ALL the post I'm starting to like your idea, I hope it makes it thru, I will say that your need to add ALOT of polish to your way of talking to other that disagree with ya, Best of luck with it, Lets start by culling out alot of those bad genetics of 5x5 and such.
 
Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

Thanks Gator, I for one know I need to work on that and will continue to try and improve. Good advice, it may take a while to get through my thick skull, but it will.
 
It started with fantasy football. Then fantasy "NASCAR". I never thought I would see the day that we have "Fantasy Elk Management"??? I wonder how you can get points and determine the winner in "Fantasy Elk Management?" Coming soon to a unit near you........ "Fantasy Deer Management, Fantasy Coyote Management, Fantasy Rainbow Management....." A lot of fantasies out there.
 
bonepiler, I suppose in your 'little' world, only you and your 'buddies' are allowed to get invovled in wildlife issues. Or do you believe the public should just sit back and do NOTHING? I believe it is our obligation as sportsmen to SHOW UP and make hunting better for us today and our kids tommorow. If trying to improve things is just 'fantasy', so be it. I choose to be 'pro'-active, rather than be a sheep, having others make the call for me. You sit home and do NOTHING, then come back later and ##### about how bad hunting is. That seems like a much better idea. NOT!

For those who are interested, we will have the Big Game Coordinator answering questions relating to I400 on Apriol 19th at 6:00 pm at the Utah Archery Center. All are invited, a RSVP would be nice since Utah Bowmen Association is providing pizza. Thanks.

PRO
 
PRO,

What is the address for the Utah Archery Center? I am very interested in attending this meeting.

Thanks,

-RPinenut
 

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