INITIATIVE 400

proutdoors · Apr 16, 2007

4070 South 60 East in SLC. West side of state street, side street by Napa. It starts at 6:00 pm, will go till whenever. Anise Aude(sp) the Big Game Coordinator will be there to answer questions and give insight. I'll put you down pinenut for the pizza count.

PRO

bonepiler · Apr 17, 2007

Pro-

First of all I am happy with the way elk hunting is in Utah, and I will be supporting the continuation of this approach any chance I get. Second of all, the online poll on UDWR's website indicates that more "public" are against your "I400" than are supporting it. So why dont you just drop it? MOST people don't want PISSCUTTERS. MOST people think "I400" just plain sucks. Maybe you should have held some "meetings" prior to putting your plan together to come up with a proposal people would actually support (other than your buddies)?

proutdoors · Apr 17, 2007

bonepiler,

First, what a well-thought out post. NOT!

Second, you say you are happy with the way elk hunting is in Utah. Do you have kids? If so, do you want them to hunt mature bulls in Utah, EVER? Under the current system, they would have very little chance of drawing a LE tag even once in their lifetime. If you believe that is a good system, then we are miles apart on what hunting is supposed to be. This is only on FIVE units ONLY, not the whole state, so relax.

Third, I don't worry to much about a poll on a forum visited by a limited number of elk hunters. I HAVE talked with many 'real' people(those who aren't so scared that they hide behind a computer with they 'idenity' hidden), the respones I have gotten have been very favorable.

Fourth, I400 will NOT be 'creating' "PISSCUTTERS", we see no reason for the quality to suffer much if any as a reult of I400.

Fifth, we are meeting with the Big Game Coordinator on the 19th, so he and the DWR must hold a different view than you on the validity of I400.

Sixth, if this is as unpopular as you claim, you have NOTHING to worry about. It won't get thru the RAC's and Wildlife Board if the overwhelming majority of elk hunters oppose it.

Seventh, these so-called 'buddies' of mine were people I had never met before I400. I admit, a few are now what I consider 'friends'. I have made many 'friends' thru here and the UDWR site,, is that a bad thing? If so, why?

PRO

huntin100 · Apr 18, 2007

Pro and Hogan, Keep up the good work. Thanks for your time and interest in trying to maintain great world class quality as a whole and get more people through the system. What your proposing on 5 units has worked well in New Mexico and Arizona. It's not like your trying to re-invent the wheel. It will work with proper management. Thanks again, Greg

treehugnhuntr · Apr 18, 2007

LAST EDITED ON Apr-18-07 AT 01:32PM (MST)[p]Quote

"Second of all, the online poll on UDWR's website indicates that more "public" are against your "I400" than are supporting it. "

Hey bone guy, The poll has a larger # of supporters than it does opposition. You and your dissonant cognative skills might want to look at it again.

maximus · Apr 18, 2007

I don't know of anyone that does not dream of hunting big bulls more than once in his or her life maybe twice if you're lucky. But we need to face the facts. Utah never has had or will have enough mature bulls to support those dreams. If the number of tags are raised to the i-400 proposal in my opinion you will have 5 pilot units with very few bulls and what you do see will just be rag horns. That would be five units that are now producing great bull ruined by over haristing. Not to mention depriving many hunters of the opportunity of hunting elk every year with the elimination of spike only hunting.

I keep hearing "don't you have kids and want them to have the opportunity to hunt a mature bull more than once in there life." Once again this is just my opinion I believe that i-400 will take opportunity away from the youth just entering the drawing system. There will be less areas for them to hunt spikes every year and with the five units on the pilot plan supporting small bulls the majority of hunters will be putting in for the trophy units that are left decreasing ones chance of drawing even more.

I want my kids to have the opportunity to hunt elk every year. It may only be a spike hunt but just having the opportunity to see mature bulls and see them in the rut is a big part of the experience and it is every year. I fell that the spike only/limited entry mature bull units are the best thing to hit utahs elk heard ever. Why mess with it? Its working.

One more thing then I'll be off my soap box. Managing for cow bull ratio makes no sense to me. The number of bulls to cows is nothing more than a guess. Look how great its working for utahs deer herds. You need to manage for age class because the data is accurate. It is coming from harvested animals there is no assumption. You know what age it takes to make a mature bull and you know what age of bulls are on the unit from this system.

I hope I haven't offended anyone but I would like to see my kids have the opportunity to hunt spikes every year. I would like to continue to see mature bulls 7 to 8 years of age all summer while camping and to see them big boys in the rut and don't get me started on their sheds. Then maybe one year I will draw my limited entry tag and it will be one worth the wait. There just isn't enough elk in the state for every one to hunt mature bulls every few years.

bonepiler · Apr 19, 2007

You are right, PRO, I am not too worried about your little program making it. See ya at some RAC's, maybe.......

30inchbucks · Apr 19, 2007

"There just isn't enough elk in the state for everyone to hunt mature bulls every few years." I disagree. Right now our harvest rates are in the 90's and some units it is 100%. That is not hunting, in my opinion. If you want that kind of success go buy a tag and hunt on a ranch!!! When you compare Utahs big bull tags 2,169 for 60,000 plus elk in the state to lets say Arizona at 10,202 big bull tags for 35,000 elk in their state, there is definately room to put more people through the system. Move most of the gun tags out of the rut. And November is too late!!!!! We have more snow and higher country than Arizona so November gun hunts have not and will not lower success rates that much in Utah. The stats say about 6% lower success on the late hunts. Thats not enough. Needs to be in the middle of October plain and simple. Season dates is the key to lowering success rates and making it into a hunt instead of a shoot!!! Just cause one draws a tag shouldn't guarantee one a 350+ bull. Doesn't that sound a little bit like ranching for wildlife? Also move the deer rifle hunt to the first week of October. I don't know why we,re so afraid of messing with traditional dates. We're suppose to be better managing wildlife are we not? Bam!!!!!! Now we've helped the deer, the elk, and one might draw a great "hunt" more than once in their life.

HOGAN · Apr 19, 2007

Wasatchfrontmuleys.com

Great post 30" buck!!! I400 in a nutshell. Really it is just common cents. Make it a hunt again, helps hunters, elk, all!

proutdoors · Apr 19, 2007

bonepiler, I hope to prove you wrong. Not for spite, but because many, many hunters in Utah are tired of hunting spikes as their only real option. With success rates in the teens for spike hunts and any-bull hunts, what a great 'deal', NOT. Now, someone just getting into the 'game', has less than a 20% chance of drawing a LE rifle tag on the Wasatch EVER. How is this a good and healthy system? It is NOT!! Admit it.

30inchbuck, I am not sure who you are, if you are not part of our 'group', why not? Your post is great. I for the life of me can't see why we hunt with rifles in September. 90% success rates is the PRIMARY limiting factor to issuing more LE tags. By moving the rifle hunt to Oct. the success rate will drop, allowing for more tags w/o killing more bulls, thus affecting the quality not one bit. Why is this so hard for some to grasp?

PRO