Mass Question on Mule Deer Racks - what is alot?

Texas_Hunter · Dec 14, 2004

I am hoping you guys might be able to help me out with a question about mass on a muley rack. I have only taken 4 mule deer bucks, so I am by far no expert which is why I ask and I don't get to hunt them often living where I do.

A few years ago I killed a 27" wide 176 Gross deer that had great front forks and tall back forks, but was on the thin side. I killed a buck this year that is only a 24" wide mainframe 4x4 with browtines, but has a massive rack (at least by my standards) and scores 181 Gross. My taxidermist (TBGA Official Scorer) sent me his scores back which are right on with mine (we were 1/2" different on the total) and he has 40 5/8" (7" and 6 1/2" bases) worth of mass measurements.

I have looked at alot of bucks recently (mounts, online pics, and few in the wild) and I have only seen a handful that had this kind of mass that was carried through the tines and beams.

My question, when measuring bucks, what do you consider a buck that has good mass and then great mass?

Comparing my 181 to my 176, the 176 is wider and taller, but looks tiny compared to my other rack because of the mass. The massive racks are definately impressive to look at and hold.

YELUM · Dec 14, 2004

If your buck has 20 inches of mass, he's a dandy and very massive. Post pictures please.
Yelum

huntsonora · Dec 14, 2004

What part of TX were you hunting?

Congrats on 2 great bucks,

Drum

idhunters · Dec 14, 2004

IMHO 20" of mass per side is good and anything above that starts to become great. If a buck has 20" per side you will notice the thickness of the horns. Generally when looking at a rack tine and main beam length will get the score up. Good fronts make up for poor backs. Width is basically immaterial to the score. Mass really helps the look of the buck as you have noted, and with 8 total mass measurements, can certainly add to the score.

Also, if you have only killed 4 mule deer bucks and one is 176 and the other 181 you are doing fantastic, especially in today's world. Bucks above 170 gross are getting pretty tough to come by.

IDhunters

hornaddiction · Dec 14, 2004

Lenght is more important than mass. You want long main beams and long forks for a deer to score good! Mass definately helps though!

Horn
www.trophiesonthewall.com

boneaddict · Dec 14, 2004

I was going to say anything with 5 inch measurements would be considered great mass, which is exactly what everyone else is saying at 20 inches perside. It becomes real evident when the mass goes all the way out to the end. Personally I like mass more than tine length, but I'm afraid the Boone system does not.

motohunter · Dec 14, 2004

I'm with you boneaddict. I think mass is most important. Anything close to 20" a side is awesome! I would rather kill a narrow buck with mass and tine length than a wide spindly buck.

Texas_Hunter · Dec 14, 2004

Here are a few pic's of the buck....I got my 140ish Mule Deer (First) in Wyoming. I got a 155 in New Mexico, my 176 also came from New Mexico and this 181 came from Saskatchewan (Hunted Indian reservation which allowed us to get a Muley or Whitetail)

He also has 26"+ Beams which really helped the score. I feel real fortunate to have gotten him.

My 4 1/2 year old holding the antlers. He weighs 45lb's and is in the 85% percentile in height - not a small kid.

BigPig · Dec 14, 2004

Only 4 deer and bucks like that? Wow. Go buy some lotto tickets, or take up gambling. You are one lucky dude! Congratulations.

BCBOY · Dec 14, 2004

Texas Hunter,
I think mass is what gives a buck Wall Appeal. But it really doesn't add to the score in leaps and bounds like tine length does. Consider that you take your H measurements at the smallest place not the biggest. Many really heavy bucks don't get the credit for the mass they have.
Canadian bucks typically carry a lot more mass than those from other areas. I really don't know why that is but the mass we have up here is unreal. A buck with 40 inches of mass normally is an indicator of a mature buck here. You got yourself a great buck there. Congrats.
Here is an example of how mass doesn't really help the score. My buddy shot this buck this year. As a 10x8 it grosses 190 NT, with one H3 measurement 8 1/8 inches. All the tines are short because of the mass. This is typical of really heavy bucks.

huntercameron · Dec 14, 2004

Im not saying im right but what I have notived is bc bucks get massive . But not very wide . Thats my opinion though. That buck bc boy looks to be related to the the nontypical you posted awhile back that had the mass like that . The post named mass from hell.

later , hunter cameron

Blackhawk357 · Dec 14, 2004

Tex,
Those are nice bucks. Nice job.

Let's look at some examples of the 3 criteria that have been discussed here. I have examples of each.

First width, this is very striking and probably the first thing I notice when in the field. Maybe not the most important as far as B&C scoring, but still very striking to me. This buck measured 29.5" on the outside of the front forks:

Tine length is just ok and the mass is ok, but very nice width.

Next is great tine length. Very deep forks with nice symmetry.

Width is ok, mass is ok but great tine length.

Third is really nice mass. The bases are almost 7". Look close at the mass above Derek's hands. It carries up nicely.

The width is only 23", and tine length is ok except for the back side on the left.

The trick is to find one with all three attributes. If a guy could take these three and take the strong point from each and make one you'd have a hell of a Mule Deer buck!

If the question is which is most important, it all depends on who you ask. I personally enjoy evaluating all three. To me the best buck is the one with the best average. How?s that for avoiding the question?

Blackhawk

Chef · Dec 14, 2004

BH357,

Very nice contribution indeed. I have to say I like tine length first, mass econd, and lastly width. That's just me.
The previous post just confirmed that for me.

Chef
"I Love Animals...They're Delicious!"

BrianID · Dec 14, 2004

I tend to think 18" per antler is decent mass, 20" is good mass and 23"+ is exceptaial mass. Personally I like a combination of width, mass and deep forks.

BCboy,

We all know why your BC bucks have such good mass. Others have already told you that it is cheating to breed muleys with moose

BCBOY · Dec 14, 2004

Talk about muleys with mass like a moose. Did you see those pics of the Canadian buck in the photo gallery. Here's the link. WOW!!! I'm guessing it is a BC buck but could be an Alberta buck as well.
http://www.monstermuleys.com/photos/PhotosID1/1305.html

MattB · Dec 14, 2004

I thought the same thing when i saw that pic as well! Could also be saskatchewan, but more likely bc or alberta.

huntercameron · Dec 14, 2004

Thats a regressed deer bc boy . I know of some guys who have some oldly insane huge bucks taken back in the fifties in Utah . Some have regressed so bad that they have all this mass but there tines shrink . That mass if from the times not growing out . Im talking 10 inch h3 , and h4 mass.

overkill · Dec 15, 2004

Hey guys, I have not scored my buck yet, What do you think he will score, and how many inches of mass do you think he has? Although hs forks are not very good, I'm wondering how much his mass will make up for it.For reference, his bases are 8" around.

MattB · Dec 15, 2004

I think your buck would have just over 40" of mass, as for score im guessing he would go 165". You really need good tine length to get a high score, still a really nice deer though. It would be tough passing him up with bases like that!

idhunters · Dec 16, 2004

To answer your question, the mass will NOT make up for tine length....however, that is a GREAT deer and I for one could care less about the score. I think that deer (along with alot of "Trash factor") bucks really illustrates some of the weakness of the B&C system.

I think they weigh racks in Europe. That one would do great there.

Congrats on a tremendous buck, with great eye appeal, regardless of score.
IDHunters.

FamilyMan · Dec 16, 2004

Excelent post Blackhawk

This really illustrates the point well. Thanks for putting this together.

Mark

overkill · Dec 16, 2004

LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-04 AT 11:13AM (MST)[p] According to the B&C standards, I believe that front forks make up 80% of the score, and mass accounts for something like 18%. This is from memory so I may be wrong. I know that good tine length, especially the fronts really help a rack score well. But inches are inches, and when you total up the amount of inches it does not really matter from what part of the rack it comes from. I guess technically it is the total amount of inches that makes or breaks a rack ( if you follow the B&C standard.).

I personally think that there are huge shortcomings in the B&C scoring system, but because it is for the most part accepted, this is the standard that I follow. Funny thing is that when I spotted this buck at over a mile away, given the distance and his weak forks, I thought he had incredible front forks, but the fork I was looking at in reality is where he branches in between his G-3 and G-4.

This is pretty much a tangent for I was really only wondering what he would score, and how many inches of mass you guys think he has..

OSOK · Dec 16, 2004

LAST EDITED ON Dec-16-04 AT 04:53PM (MST)[p]That's a sweet looking buck, not matter what the tine length may be. Crunching the #'s just from this one photo, which can be pretty difficult to do sometimes, I'm coming up w/ something closer to 44-6 inches of mass. And maybe as high as 173-5 gross if you count the extra eye guard trash he's got going on the one side. Like I said though, it's tough from one picture.

That thing will look impressive on the wall no matter what the score...

DeanX · Dec 17, 2004

I prefer height and width over mass but heaviness is nice to. I think a buck with 40+ inches of mass is considered well above average.

huntercameron · Dec 17, 2004

Nice bucks overkill. That heavy one reminds me of the bases of the buck of justice exactly looking bases . Anybody else think this ?

later , hunter cameron

overkill · Dec 17, 2004

> Nice bucks overkill.
>That heavy one reminds me
>of the bases of the
>buck of justice exactly looking
>bases . Anybody else think
>this ?
>
>
> later ,
> hunter cameron

Thanks Cameron, I've never seen the buck of justice, is there a link to a photo?