Best Utah LE unit with 18 points

fuzzyvelvet · Jan 25, 2019

My wife has 18 NR points. I am hearing about how the Utah LE units have declined quite a bit since they started the spike hunts on the LE units. So where would you go for either rifle or ML in the next few years?

Fuzzy

deerkiller · Jan 25, 2019

Put in for the unit you have the most personal experience with. You have much better odds at killing a big bull on a lesser unit that you know well, than you do at killing a big bull on a unit you have no prior experience on.

elkantlers · Jan 26, 2019

>My wife has 18 NR points.
> I am hearing about
>how the Utah LE units
>have declined quite a bit
>since they started the spike
>hunts on the LE units.
> So where would you
>go for either rifle or
>ML in the next few
>years?
>
>Fuzzy

Thats not true. It's because of the spike hunts that we have great LE Units. Way back when before the spike hunts were brought about there was not anywhere near the quality of elk that we now have. Sure, there are some unit that seem to be over hunted, like the Bookcliffs, but overall elk in Utah is very good.
Any unit that can be draw with 18 points will be a great hunt for your wife.

lang · Jan 26, 2019

LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-19 AT 11:50AM (MST)[p]+1 to deer killer.

fuzzyvelvet · Jan 26, 2019

The book cliffs is the unit I know best and that is what I am hearing...that it has been ruined so I am starting from scratch to find the best option for her.

c3 · Jan 26, 2019

That's complete bs elkantlers. All the top LE units have drastically declined for trophy bull production since the spike hunts started.

Spike hunting is the bane of Utah elk. Get rid of spike hunting state wide and we'd have 4 times the number of big bull tags and better quality state wide. Not to mention 1/3rd the number of hunters chasing them around like rabid dogs all fall.

No, you can't go elk hunting every year with your rifle and have great elk hunting. It's just a fact of the matter.

slamdunk · Jan 27, 2019

>The book cliffs is the unit
>I know best and that
>is what I am hearing...that
>it has been ruined so
>I am starting from scratch
>to find the best option
>for her.

Definitely do not waste 18 years on the Books.
I would 10 to 1 take a Wasatch tag over the Books if I had the choice.
Manti is a huge unit with some great bulls, or you could take a chance and do a late season on a better unit like Boulder, Beaver, San Juan or Pahvant.
I also wouldn't count out Panguitch or Dutton.

deerkiller · Jan 27, 2019

>That's complete bs elkantlers. All the
>top LE units have drastically
>declined for trophy bull production
>since the spike hunts started.
>
>
>Spike hunting is the bane of
>Utah elk. Get rid
>of spike hunting state wide
>and we'd have 4 times
>the number of big bull
>tags and better quality state
>wide. Not to mention
>1/3rd the number of hunters
>chasing them around like rabid
>dogs all fall.
And you'd have 10x the amount of entitlement from SFW wanting to steal even more tags from the general public to pimp out for money.
>No, you can't go elk hunting
>every year with your rifle
>and have great elk hunting.
> It's just a fact
>of the matter.
Why not? Colorado does

arns · Jan 27, 2019

Because Colorado has 280,000 elk and 65,000 hunters and Utah has 65,000 elk and 280,000 hunters

elkantlers · Jan 27, 2019

Hey C3, What year did they start the spike hunts in Utah?

deerkiller · Jan 27, 2019

>Because Colorado has 280,000 elk and
>65,000 hunters and Utah has
>65,000 elk and 280,000 hunters
>
I understand that. I was just making a point

arns · Jan 27, 2019

Deer killer I know we're both on the same page.Utah will do anything they can to get as much money as possible out of there wildlife.Every year they come up with new hunts just to make money.

Alwayshunting · Jan 27, 2019

>That's complete bs elkantlers. All the
>top LE units have drastically
>declined for trophy bull production
>since the spike hunts started.
>
>
>Spike hunting is the bane of
>Utah elk. Get rid
>of spike hunting state wide
>and we'd have 4 times
>the number of big bull
>tags and better quality state
>wide. Not to mention
>1/3rd the number of hunters
>chasing them around like rabid
>dogs all fall.
>
>No, you can't go elk hunting
>every year with your rifle
>and have great elk hunting.
> It's just a fact
>of the matter.

Show me a spike that turned into a 400 bull. Show me a spike that carried the genetics to hit 380.

slamdunk · Jan 27, 2019

>Deer killer I know we're both
>on the same page.Utah will
>do anything they can to
>get as much money as
>possible out of there wildlife.Every
>year they come up with
>new hunts just to make
>money.

No, they come up with more hunts because the people want "More "Opportunity" period.

arns · Jan 27, 2019

>>Deer killer I know we're both
>>on the same page.Utah will
>>do anything they can to
>>get as much money as
>>possible out of there wildlife.Every
>>year they come up with
>>new hunts just to make
>>money.
>
>
>No, they come up with more
>hunts because the people want
>"More "Opportunity" period.

ya like the 3 season elk hunt they started last year that's all about money pierod

Elkslayer2015 · Jan 28, 2019

LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-19 AT 08:37AM (MST)[p]Alwayshunting now I'm not saying that every spike could be a 400 to a 380 bull because the feed and the genetics play a big factor in this but this is info is all over the web

biologist found In his second year, a bull elk usually grows slim unbranched antlers called spikes that are 10-20inches (25-50 cm) long. By the third year, antlers begin developing tines that branch from the main beam. By the seventh summer, a bull's antlers may have six tines each, weigh as much as 40 pounds (18kg), and grow to a length and spread of more than four feet (1.2 m). Why would an animal need to carry around a rack of antlers that weighs so much? A large rack identifies a bull that is successful in finding food, lots of food.

A bull must consume huge amounts of nutrients to obtain the energy and minerals needed to grow antlers as well as the energy to carry them around Large antlers also identify a bull that is able to defend himself against other bulls and against predators. This information is of great interest to female elk (cows) because they will mate with the strongest, most successful males -- usually the bulls with the biggest antlers

so over hunting spike could hurt are quality of bulls but so can over hunting cows to so show me proof that a spike can't be a 400 or a 380 inch bull

c3 · Jan 28, 2019

elkantlers, 2011 or 2012 on the premium LE elk units. There have been spike hunts since the 90's on units like the Manti and Wasatch.

Cheers, Pete

c3 · Jan 28, 2019

I've never supported virtually anything SFW has ever done nor will I.

Colorado isn't a good example. It also has zero spike hunts! Like was said, they have way more elk and way fewer hunters in the point pool. Utah has 80k something people in the elk points pool, not 280k, but the point was still true.

AZ is a good example of lots of opportunity vs. elk numbers in a more desert environment like we have here. They have 27K elk and 8000 big bull tags with zero spike hunting.

There's nothing good to be said about spike hunting. It f's it up for everyone who's waited 15 - 25 years for their big bull hunt and depletes the resource of 3-5 year old bulls that could be hunted with primitive weapons and way lower success rates.

As I've said for 20 years now on MM here or when ever it got started. Get rid of the spike hunts, the bulk of the rifle hunts in the rut and add 5 - 7 times the number of primitive weapons hunts and we'd all get to hunt big bulls every 5 years in stead of once in a lifetime practically.

Waiting 25 - 30 years for a premium rifle in the rut hunt, great, good for you. Waiting 25 years for an archery hunt like I did is a complete joke. Greatest hunt of my life, but this system blows for all of us but the few sfw wealth hunter types.

Cheers, Pete

c3 · Jan 28, 2019

That's a ridiculous statement. Every 400" bull was a spike. The idea of slaying most of the spikes every year, then leaving all the bulls with crappy genetics to breed the cows because no one wants to shoot it on their once in a lifetime elk hunt is crazy.

At the same time their posse is chasing every true giant with great genetics year round out of the herd and especially during the peak of the rut into some hell hole to hide.

We are living in a crazy world where we're paying to watch the destruction of our elk herd right before our own eyes all for the hope of drawing a 1/10,000 chance expo tag so we get to hunt.

What we are doing here in Utah to our elk is completely ludicrous biologically.

Pete

deerkiller · Jan 28, 2019

LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-19 AT 09:28AM (MST)[p]>That's a ridiculous statement. Every
>400" bull was a spike.
> The idea of slaying
>most of the spikes every
>year, then leaving all the
>bulls with crappy genetics to
>breed the cows because no
>one wants to shoot it
>on their once in a
>lifetime elk hunt is crazy.

No not every 400? bull was a spike. Generally speaking, a 400? bull has to have amazing genetics. That will come from something that was more than average from the start. Many, many whitetail ranches in Texas and other parts of the world specifically allow hunters to cull spikes from the herds based upon their belief that a spike is of the lesser genetic quality. This conclusion has come from years worth of study and research by top biologists. It's not something someone has made up overnight. I've got a few very recognizable elk on several different wallows for years, that I've been able to watch grow. The spikes always turn into your average bull. The 2 and 3s usually blow up into something special. I'm positive that bull you shot on the San Juan a few years back was not just your average spike his first year growing antlers

>
>What we are doing here in
>Utah to our elk is
>completely ludicrous biologically.
>
>Pete

You?re more than welcome to hunt somewhere else if you don't like the way Utah does things. The bottom line is, they are gonna sell the tags anyways. So if someone is gonna hunt them, might as well be me (us/you).

elkantlers · Jan 28, 2019

>elkantlers, 2011 or 2012 on the
>premium LE elk units.
>There have been spike hunts
>since the 90's on units
>like the Manti and Wasatch.
>
>
>Cheers, Pete

Some started in the 80's

My point is that we have had spike permits for a long time on most units since they became LE. Thats how they became LE units because we stopped hunting every elk and gave some a chance to grow. We (my wife) hunted the Manti unit in 98 and that year there were 35 any weapon permits. I don't think there were any Muzzy permits that year and there sure weren't any late tags.
We (my tag) hunted the Manti again in 2012 and there were several hundred permits distributed over 4 different hunts.
so, we've had two (2) LE elk permits in my immediate family in 28 years of applying.
I on the other hand have been able to hunt a spike every single year, thirty (30) years, other than my one (1) LE elk tag. There is no way anyone is going to tell me that one (1) LE bull tag in 30 years is better than a spike elk tag every year. No way, not going to happen.
I'm sorry that there are not enough elk that we can hunt big rutted bulls every year. but there just are not and will never be. eliminating spike tags will not make it so either. There will never be enough elk to go around.

elkantlers · Jan 28, 2019

I'll be honest, I could care less if there are any 400" bulls killed. I would rather see regular people have increased opportunity to hunt over limiting tags so that Moss or lemon and their never ending supply of teen age "guides" can chase around the holy grail.

Alwayshunting · Jan 28, 2019

>LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-19
>AT 08:37?AM (MST)
>
>Alwayshunting now I'm not saying that
>every spike could be a
>400 to a 380 bull
>because the feed and the
>genetics play a big factor
>in this but this is
>info is all over the
>web
>
>biologist found In his second year,
>a bull elk usually grows
>slim unbranched antlers called spikes
>that are 10-20inches (25-50 cm)
>long. By the third year,
>antlers begin developing tines that
>branch from the main beam.
>By the seventh summer, a
>bull's antlers may have six
>tines each, weigh as much
>as 40 pounds (18kg), and
>grow to a length and
>spread of more than four
>feet (1.2 m). Why would
>an animal need to carry
>around a rack of antlers
>that weighs so much? A
>large rack identifies a bull
>that is successful in finding
>food, lots of food.
>
>A bull must consume huge amounts
>of nutrients to obtain the
>energy and minerals needed to
>grow antlers as well as
>the energy to carry them
>around Large antlers also identify
>a bull that is able
>to defend himself against other
>bulls and against predators. This
>information is of great interest
>to female elk (cows) because
>they will mate with the
>strongest, most successful males --
>usually the bulls with the
>biggest antlers
>
> so over hunting spike could
>hurt are quality of bulls
>but so can over hunting
>cows to so show me
>proof that a spike can't
>be a 400 or a
>380 inch bull

This is true. Very few bulls branch their first year. The ones that do branch first year are rare. Bout as rare as say a 400 bull?

fuzzyvelvet · Jan 28, 2019

So back to the original question...which unit has the best potential to kill the biggest bull with 18 NR points? If its a 400 great! If its a 350 or a 375 that is besides the point. Just looking for the best hunt chasing rutting bulls with either a rifle or ML.

elkantlers · Jan 28, 2019

Wasatch early was guaranteed with 18NR points last year.

Elkslayer2015 · Jan 28, 2019

Fuzzyvelvet I want to apologize for butting in on your post and not answering your question I would do Wasatch or the Manti

The books is in bad shape but if you just want I nice 6x6 330 bull or less it shouldn't be a problem finding one and the Accessibility out there is far more better than those other two units good luck on your draw

wstrntines · Jan 28, 2019

2018 was tough for big bulls. 2019 multiple units will produce giant bulls. There is gonna be a huge carryover due to big bulls having poor antler growth in 18. They will come back in 19 better than ever. And bulls that were borderline have another year of age on them. So find a unit you can spend alot of time in and put your hiking boots on.

"We don't have a gun problem we have prescription drug problem."

inthrut · Feb 1, 2019

PM sent

txhunter58 · Feb 1, 2019

>Because Colorado has 280,000 elk and
>65,000 hunters and Utah has
>65,000 elk and 280,000 hunters
>

Not accurate. Colorado sells over 200,000 elk licenses and generally kills more than 40,000 elk per year

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

slamdunk · Feb 2, 2019

> 2018
>was tough for big bulls.
>2019 multiple units will produce
>giant bulls. There is gonna
>be a huge carryover due
>to big bulls having poor
>antler growth in 18. They
>will come back in 19
>better than ever. And bulls
>that were borderline have another
>year of age on them.
>So find a unit you
>can spend alot of time
>in and put your hiking
>boots on.
>
Spot on!?

Gator · Feb 3, 2019

Up your chances with a good guide that know the unit you want to draw.
I'm not much in to getting guides, BUT it is 18 years of waiting and paying.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
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