Arizona Elk Hunt

300WBYMULES · Nov 15, 2014

So can anyone tell me how to find out how many points it takes to draw an early rifle or muzzle tag on any given unit in Arizona? I am trying to predict the year in which I can draw a particular unit as I have a bunch of elk points and I want to select the year in which I draw very carefully.

Any Help is much appreciated.

bonecollector777 · Nov 15, 2014

What unit and hunt are you wanting? I can tell you off the bonus point reports. They are kinda hard to read but if you want to check them out I'll send them to you. There isn't really any way to tell EXACTLY which year you will get drawn. Especially if you are non resident. A lot depends on how many max bonus point holders put in for your specific hunt on each specific year. But let me know here or send a message and I'll help you out.

300WBYMULES · Nov 15, 2014

1 OR 27

bonecollector777 · Nov 15, 2014

OK so it's kinda hard to get exact numbers because unit 1 and 27 switch off from muzzle loader in one unit and rifle in the other every other year. According to this past years draw if you put in for unit 1 muzzle as a resident it took 18 points to be pretty much guaranteed. Unit 27 rifle took about 20 points to get a tag as resident. Problem is next year the muzzy tag is 27 and rifle is 1 but I would bet it's just about the same for both. As a non resident there really isn't a number to be guaranteed a tag I wouldn't think unless you're at max which is like 25. But any given year in AZ you can get lucky and draw any tag so you never know. Every year people with 1 point draw tags that others have been putting in for for 20+ years.

300WBYMULES · Nov 16, 2014

Thanks a lot for the info BoneCollector. That's what I was thinking because of the way they switch the weapons on those two units, I never see the odds on those tags. Doesn't Arizona produce an odds table like Utah, Colorado and the other states. I think it's odd that you can't go on their site and find anything like this.

I am probably a ways out, I have 17 points, and will hold off for an early rifle tag, even if it takes me 10 more years. I don't archery hunt and have no interest in the sport.

Arizona seems to be set up for the Archery hunter, and I think that's a good thing, I just can't bring myself to bow hunting on this hunt when I don't have enough experience in it.

Would you know of a quality late hunt in AZ that would be a good hunt for a 360" bull?

Thanks again for your help.

WapitiBob · Nov 16, 2014

LAST EDITED ON Nov-16-14 AT 09:44AM (MST)[p]The new draw report will be out after the close of the 2015 Elk app period. You'll know exactly where you are in line with that new report. It will split out resident/non resident on a per point basis, by hunt number.

bonecollector777 · Nov 16, 2014

If you have 17 you could be getting close. With that many points I would hold off for the early rifle tag. You have waited this long a few more years won't hurt. But yes there are a few late hunts that have the potential to kill a 360" bull. One of the best late hunts is unit 23 but like I said I wouldn't give in for a late hunt. Nothing like hunting the rut!

AZ8 · Nov 16, 2014

I agree. You're too close for an early rifle. I wouldn't mess around with a late hunt at this point in the game. You're almost there. Good luck.

CAelknuts · Nov 16, 2014

300, I have a hint for you...

I also have 17 non-resident points and am holding out to draw a tag where I have a good shot at killing a 370"+ bull. I'm NOT putting in for ANY late hunt. This year, I only applied for muzzleloader hunts. I didn't draw unit 1 with 16 points, but my son drew 5B muzzleloader with 12 points and killed a 361" bull, and I saw 2 bulls that were noticeably bigger. I tore my rotator cuff a few years ago, so archery is much tougher for me these days. I'm gonna keep putting in for muzzleloader bull permits in just a few select units until I draw. If I somehow get past 20 points, then I'll switch to early rifle bull only.

mike111 · Nov 16, 2014

>LAST EDITED ON Nov-16-14
>AT 09:44?AM (MST)
>
>The new draw report will be
>out after the close of
>the 2015 Elk app period.
>You'll know exactly where you
>are in line with that
>new report. It will split
>out resident/non resident on a
>per point basis, by hunt
>number.

Currently the draw report will split residents/non-residents at each point level, but it doesn't split res/non-res by hunt number. If they do start to break it down by hunt number that will help out a lot of hunters (especially non-res) in determining how many years they will have to wait for a tag.

300WBYMULES · Nov 16, 2014

Thanks guys, this is all really good to hear. Thanks for the tip also CAelknuts.

I am really looking at other options other than 9 or 10. Frankly, I don't want to wait in those units for an early rifle tag. I've heard those hunts can really go either way. And that's probably true for all the units in Arizona.

Definitely more options down there if a guy does some homework. I always thought that this would be my one chance at a 380" or better bull, but realistically, if I can find a 360" bull that I like I would consider the years of investment a true success.

I think it would be cool to kill a true legitimate 350 bull in a less hyped area, than a 370 bull in the primo unit, but that's just me.

So I think hunting the rut is awesome, and it's definitely a great time, but if I was willing to sacrifice that season for say a 23 North late hunt, does that hunt produce a fair amount of trophy bulls? Has it produced any 360 plus bulls the past few seasons?

bonecollector777 · Nov 17, 2014

The 23 Late hunt produces some good bulls if you know where to find them. It can be really tough though. Might blow 17 points to not see much if it's a bad year. Last year a 12 year old girl killed a 420" bull on the late hunt so they are in there. Would you ever consider a guide or gonna do it yourself? A guide on that late hunt is a huge help to find big bulls.

300WBYMULES · Nov 17, 2014

Sent you a PM.

CAelknuts · Nov 17, 2014

LAST EDITED ON Nov-18-14 AT 00:34AM (MST)[p]N/m

sirroyal · Nov 19, 2014

LAST EDITED ON Nov-19-14 AT 07:26PM (MST)[p]You have lost your mind to take a risk on killing a good bull on a late hunt. The odds are against you!
17 points hold out for an early rifle.
Don't know why 9 or 10 would not be your first choice.
We kill 370's, 380's , 390's and 400's every year in these units!

sirroyal · Nov 19, 2014

Here is a few photos!

300WBYMULES · Nov 19, 2014

I hear ya, I'm very unlikely to put in for a late hunt. Thanks for your advice.

WapitiBob · Nov 19, 2014

You're a long way away from an early 1/27 rifle tag.

sirroyal · Nov 20, 2014

I'm sorry I could not get my photos to post. If someone can help me I can do it.

couesmagnet · Nov 20, 2014

There isn't a late hunt in az worth that many points. Absolutely under no circumstances should you blow your points on 23 late. Sure this can be a great hunt for a few, there will only be a couple of really good bulls shot on this hunt. In the other hand there r several units worthy of your points for the early hunts that were not mentioned yet. Just about any unit we have wil be better on the early hunt than 23 late. 23 is my favorite unit in the state but I would hate to see a guy get talked into blowing that many points on a late tag in there. Good luck in your choice.

300WBYMULES · Nov 20, 2014

Hey there Wapiti! How many points you figure it takes?

300WBYMULES · Nov 20, 2014

Thanks Coues!

300WBYMULES · Nov 20, 2014

Thanks Coues!

WapitiBob · Nov 20, 2014

>Hey there Wapiti! How many
>points you figure it takes?
>

You might get lucky and hit one of the random NR tags in 2016. If you're not lucky, 10-15 years. You have no chance to draw in 2015 I know that.
We'll know the 2014 res/nr breakdown early this spring and we need that to have any kind of guestimate. The new 2015 draw numbers will be out a few months after that. The Article 1 stuff will be done by the end of 2015 and you'll be able to formulate a semi decent guess going into the 2016 draw.

Utah400Elk · Nov 21, 2014

WapitiBob,

I tried for 9 and 23 N archery elk last year with 16 points. I now have 17 points. How long do you think I would have to wait for a unit 1, 3A/3C, or 27 muzzle tag? I think I can draw a tag archery tag this year but I might be going to east coast for a couple years for work. I can still make the hunts but it will be harder. That is why I am looking to the muzzle hunts in a couple of years.

Thanks

WapitiBob · Nov 21, 2014

LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-14 AT 03:27PM (MST)[p]You should be a lock for a unit 1 archery tag, depending on how much press the Article 1 stuff gets. We really can't get a decent handle going forward because of the proposed changes. If nothing was to change, you have roughly 70 people at your level and above. If they're all NR, and all 10% nr tags go in the bonus pass, you're looking at 15 years to get thru your group.

Really, we have to know the res/nr breakdown, per point level, per hunt code, which is what Amber is doing. She fully understands the need for accurate data on our end and has been trying to get this report done since 2009 when I started talking to her about it. Once we have those breakdowns, you'll know (very closely) how long till you're in the max point group for a given hunt. We'll be able to calculate the random side odds too. It's a pretty good deal.

Utah400Elk · Nov 21, 2014

LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-14 AT 03:39PM (MST)[p]I might go for the NR unit 9 pr 23 archery tag? I have seriously thought about now waiting for the unit 1, 3A/3C or 27 muzzleloader tag. I will just wait and see. I really appreciate the help.

John

Cozmo8 · Dec 4, 2014

What is the article 1 stuff?

Jeffpg · Jan 14, 2015

Hey guys, I'm a non-resident sitting on 13 elk points in Arizona and I'm thinking on going bow hunting this fall!

I believe I can draw unit 1 or unit 3A3C and I have a guide in mind for the hunt. Based on his information, I am leaning towards 3A3C just because it's easier to get away from people there.

Any suggestions or advice? It will be much appreciated.

thanks,
Jeff

seldom · Jan 14, 2015

LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-15 AT 07:43PM (MST)[p]>300, I have a hint for
>you...
>
>I also have 17 non-resident points
>and am holding out to
>draw a tag where I
>have a good shot at
>killing a 370"+ bull.
>I'm NOT putting in for
>ANY late hunt. This
>year, I only applied for
>muzzleloader hunts. I didn't
>draw unit 1 with 16
>points, but my son drew
>5B muzzleloader with 12 points
>and killed a 361" bull,
>and I saw 2 bulls
>that were noticeably bigger.
>I tore my rotator cuff
>a few years ago, so
>archery is much tougher for
>me these days. I'm
>gonna keep putting in for
>muzzleloader bull permits in just
>a few select units until
>I draw. If I
>somehow get past 20 points,
>then I'll switch to early
>rifle bull only.

You guys hired Hunter Weems to be able to kill this type of bull didn't you? So why are you telling the internet nation it was 5B just wondering?

seldom · Jan 14, 2015

seldom · Jan 14, 2015

LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-15 AT 07:58PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-15 AT 07:57?PM (MST)

>300, I have a hint for
>you...
>
>I also have 17 non-resident points
>and am holding out to
>draw a tag where I
>have a good shot at
>killing a 370"+ bull.
>I'm NOT putting in for
>ANY late hunt. This
>year, I only applied for
>muzzleloader hunts. I didn't
>draw unit 1 with 16
>points, but my son drew
>5B muzzleloader with 12 points
>and killed a 361" bull,
>and I saw 2 bulls
>that were noticeably bigger.
>I tore my rotator cuff
>a few years ago, so
>archery is much tougher for
>me these days. I'm
>gonna keep putting in for
>muzzleloader bull permits in just
>a few select units until
>I draw. If I
>somehow get past 20 points,
>then I'll switch to early
>rifle bull only.

Didn't you hire Hunter Weems so your son could kill this bull?
so why would you tell the internet nation what unit he guided you in i know you will only draw this tag once before you die just wondering after Hunter hook you out staters up why you would say what unit you had are you telling others where he took you? Guides spend a lot of time finding these kinds of bulls are you passing this info on to others?

DonMartin · Jan 15, 2015

LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-15 AT 03:39AM (MST)[p]I have posted this on some other places and sites, but here is where the points are at going into 2015.

You might be surprised, as I was, at the number of NR sportsmen who have LOTS of bonus points, and with the state law mandated 10% cap, just how low the odds really are for those seeking premium muzzleloader or early rifle tags who are in what I call for the lack of a better term, "No Man's Land."

I'll start at 13 and go up from there since that is where Jeff is at.

13 Resident 296 NR 424
14 Resident 254 NR 316
15 Resident 201 NR 270
16 Resident 160 NR 234
17 Resident 113 NR 174
18 Resident 108 NR 99
19 Resident 55 NR 75
20 Resident 25 NR 45
21 Resident 15 NR 15
22 Resident 3 NR 3
23 Resident 0 NR 1
24 Resident 1 NR 0
25 Resident 0 NR 1

Now granted, MOST of those top bonus point holders (21-25) are most likely putting in for just early rifle tags, and while it it doesn't take nearly that many points to draw an archery tag, even in the better units, it is amazing to me just how many folks, resident and non-resident alike, who have 15 or more elk points in Arizona!

With the proposed split of tags for the non-residents in the top pool (G&F is proposing a 5% for the top bonus point holders, with the other 5% of available tags to be put in the general draw)this just MIGHT be the year that those listed here should maybe consider some different draw strategies...

I sure don't see you NR's with 13-19 points who are applying for those very limited rifle/muzzleloader bull tags doing well this year..

I think those NR's who are in the 20 and above pools are the ones who will draw MOST of those premium tags in 2015 and here is why.

For early rifle, if my count is correct, there will be about 264

early rifle tags issued for 8 different units in Arizona.

Another 153 early MUZZLELOADER tags will also be issued in 6 units.

That total is 417, and is just for rifle/muzzleloader.

IF NR's get a full 10% this year of those premium tags, that is what, 42 tags? 65 NR sportsmen have 20 or more bonus points. Add in another 75 sportsmen who have 19 points and who you know are probably applying for only premium tags.

That's what I see; I may be wrong on the calculations and assumptions, jump in if you got a different take on this.

Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters

Unit 6A Muzzleloader bull. This is why I don't apply for bull tags anymore! You boys fight over them and good luck!

Jeffpg · Jan 15, 2015

That's good information Don, and I'm in agreement with your insight.

I believe I will definitely be applying for a archery tag this year, and I welcome any advice on the unit and outfitter choice.

Much thanks.
Jeff

300WBYMULES · Jan 16, 2015

Don, this was super helpful. Thanks for taking the time to explain and show the data.

That's exactly what I am doing is reevaluating my draw strategy in Arizona. I've been stubbornly hoping and waiting for a early rifle or muzzleloader tag for a quality unit. It's simply time to go hunting. Life is too short.

Going to go shoot a bow tomorrow......

DonMartin · Jan 16, 2015

If a guy wasn't hung up about hunting elk in the pines, and is stuck in that "No Man's Land" I do have a couple of recommendations for archery, muzzleloader and even early rifle tags.

I won't put them out here cause it might screw up those that might want to try, so either just p.m. me or send me a text @ [email protected] and I'll be glad to give you my suggestions, for free, with no obligation whatsoever, with factoring in how many points you have.

Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters

300WBYMULES · Jan 19, 2015

Thanks Don,

I have sent you a message to your email address.

seldom · Jan 20, 2015

>If a guy wasn't hung up
>about hunting elk in the
>pines, and is stuck in
>that "No Man's Land" I
>do have a couple of
>recommendations for archery, muzzleloader and
>even early rifle tags.
>
>I won't put them out here
>cause it might screw up
>those that might want to
>try, so either just p.m.
>me or send me a
>text @ [email protected] and I'll
>be glad to give you
>my suggestions, for free, with
>no obligation whatsoever, with factoring
>in how many points you
>have.
>
>Don Martin
>Arizona Wildlife Outfitters

Don,

I don't think anyone has had a problem hunting the cedars or sage country since the early 80's the pic of the bull you killed did you scout him up or luck into him?

DonMartin · Jan 20, 2015

LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-15 AT 00:05AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-15 AT 11:53?PM (MST)

To answer your question, I have/had hunted Unit 6A many, many times since I got out of the Army in 1972.

I guess you can say I kinda know the unit and what is there. Even though 6A doesn't get a lot of ink as a BIG BULL unit, there are some TOADS there!

I applied for the tag with that knowledge, and was up there for the two weeks PRIOR to the muzzleloader hunt on an archery bull hunt with my friend.

I actually had found a non-typical freak bull that had antlers all over the place, but wasn't going to score a bunch. I like FREAKS AND GEEKS and that one was my number one choice!

I said before the hunt I would take a FREAK or a GIANT, nothing in between.

When my buddy shot at and missed the freak on the last day of his archery hunt, I then went to the area where the freak had been for over a week on opening day at daylight but he was gone!

I decided to hunt another area that evening where I had seen some BIG bulls on the friend's archery hunt.

I passed 6 bulls on opening day (evening), and a few more on the second morning in the same area.

This spot had lots of cows/calves and I knew there had to be a GIANT in the area. The second evening we had bulls all over the place bugling, and when we heard the bugle of this guy, I told my friend Jay that was a bull we needed to look at!

We sneaked in to about 200 yards and looked at a 6 X 6 and a BIG 6X5 that I thought was the Big Guy until we heard the real Big Guy bugle! Other bulls were also in the area.

We heard this Big Bull raking a tree nearby, and when he bugled the other bulls in the area shut up and started leaving. The big group of cows in the meadow continued feeding and we waited.

This guy walked out at 100 yards and all I heard Jay say "Don, shoot this bull!" And I did, and down he went. Then he got up and limped off into the fading light.

We determined the shot had hit the "pocket" and wasn't a fatal wound. I didn't recover him right away, but one of my guides (we had three other hunters/guides on this hunt) glassed what he though was him about a mile away at sundown a few days later and the next day I went back to the area and my videographer and I found him alive and well, and still bugling, less than 300 yards from where we had last seen him.

My second shot on the bull was right on.. And we found my first bullet in the top of his right shoulder, right under the skin.

So to answer your question, had I seen this particular bull prior to shooting him? No I had not. But I saw TWO others on the archery hunt that were darn close (365+) so that is why I elected to hunt in that area, which you're right, was down in the juniper country! Call it a well educated feeling based upon 38 years of experience....

Last archery season my hunter from Washington and I saw three bulls in the same area over 360 and a 7 X 7 that would score in the 370's on his hunt! He has hunted all over the West and told me he had not seen so many bulls, and big bulls to boot, as he saw on his hunt in Unit 6A. By the way he ended shooting at and hitting the wrong bull (long story)-- but it still was a 7 X 6 that I think most hunters would be pleased with.

Remember, you won't shoot big if you shoot small...

Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters