Archery vs late rifle elk advice

SDBugler · Feb 4, 2018

I'm a NR with 13 elk points. I have been interested in archery units 1, 3A/3C, 10, 27. However with point creep it doesn't seem like I'm ever going to catch up to having enough points to draw. Here are the minimum points needed over the past 4 years in each unit:
1). 11, 14, 14, 15
3A/3C). 10, 13, 15, 16
10). 14, 15, 16, 17
27). 10, 11, 13, 14

Should I just give in and go for a late rifle hunt? I could have drawn most of these same units over the same time period.
1). 8, 9, 9, 10
10M). 10, 7, 13, 13
10R). 5, 6, 6, 8
23). 7, 8, 10, 14
27). 6, 8, 7, 9

At 53 years old, I know I will never have the points again to draw an archery tag if I give up now. However, if I drop them on a late rifle hunt, I could likely have a chance to draw another late rifle tag again before I'm too old to get up and down the hills. I have shot several 300" bulls and my best bull to date is a 330 bull from the Gila wilderness in NM that would have gone 350 if he wasn't broken. I would like a chance at something 330+ and willing to eat my tag in that pursuit.

Would like to hear other opinions on whether to keep after the archery tag or drop them on a late rifle tag.

oilcan · Feb 4, 2018

SD I'm in a similar situation I'll be 51 this year with 9 points and have been h@ving the same debate.
I have considered putting in for the late hunts but will probably try for at least one more Archery tag. I drew the unit one archery tag seven years ago and had a great hunt. I will not hold out for that unit again I'll probably draw a lesser archery tag in the next few years.

Sierra · Feb 4, 2018

I think it will be very difficult to get a 330+ bull in a late hunt. I hunted one of the top late hunts and didn't see a single 320+ bull (dead or alive) and I saw over 60 bulls. Vast majority were sub 280 bulls.

goinhuntn · Feb 4, 2018

With Arizona draw change in 2016 it is possible you could draw with 0 points. It is highly unlikely, but it is possible. If you want to hunt the early archery season than hold out for your tag & hunt Colorado or Idaho OTC while your waiting. You can easily draw the late rifle hunt with your points, but it is going to be a very tough hunt!!! Good luck with your decision.

fin little · Feb 4, 2018

your points may go a little farther this year. the extremely dry weather will probably have some effect on draw odds. I have done both early archery and late rifle on the same unit in the past. I would do archery even if its a different unit than you've been looking at.

Joe2Kool · Feb 4, 2018

True. If you look at the draw reports, you'll see lots of successful NR's with low points. That's what I'm hoping for!!

huntazido · Feb 4, 2018

There are very good bulls in virtually every unit in the state. That being said, I would never take a late rifle hunt over an early archery hunt. Late rifle hunts are not as much fun and the bigger bulls are usually broke up. You should look into 7W, 5b north and south early archery hunts. Very good chance you will see a 330 or better bull but it is up to you and your skills to get one. Some guys like 8 but I do not know it at all.

khunter · Feb 4, 2018

pick an archery hunt you can draw. some good ones for 13 points.

i used 12points in unit 8 back in 2008. no regrets. had a great hunt. now sittng on 7 and will happily draw a lesser archery unit this year.

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Thomas11 · Feb 5, 2018

I've had an early archery tag in AZ. And I've bowhunted elk several several times in diff states as I'm sure u have too. Was your Gila bull a archery tag? That's a great elk w a bow if so! My point is, killing a big bull with a bow is a tall order anywhere. In my opinion, you have a better opportunity to ?kill? a big bull on a good late season tag w a rifle with some homework and the right tag. Now u may see a bunch of good bulls on the archery hunt and just not a get a good chance at one. That's bowhunting. I definitely think the archery hunt would be way more fun with better weather, bugling, easier to find elk, etc. just depends on what your main goal is as far as the killing part vs enjoyability of the hunt? That's how I would approach it with your points. Also the success rates speak for themselves. The better late season hunts have way better success rates than early archery.

Thomas11 · Feb 5, 2018

U also are borderline in drawing a late season unit 23 tag. Something to consider as well

Gator · Feb 5, 2018

The trouble with late hunts is the Bull are alot of times broken up. So it a roll the dice on finding one that isn't broke. Hard to beat hunting them in the rut.

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msolocam · Feb 5, 2018

PM sent

SDBugler · Feb 6, 2018

Thanks everyone for their input.

dcervantez · Feb 10, 2018

The "lesser" units all have good bulls too. I feel like if you wait out for a premium unit, you might still be waiting a few years for it...possibly giving yourself one chance. Why not put in for something like 4/5/6/7/8 and draw this year? Then maybe you could draw it again within the next 8 years or so.

jodog · Feb 11, 2018

Back when I had 11 points I was talking to a well known outfitter about cashing in those points on late rifle. He said there wasn?t a late rifle hunt in AZ worth that many points. His advise was , you've been putting in this long just keep putting in until you can draw a real good archery tag...it's worth it.

Mudslinger · Feb 11, 2018

I would stick with 27 archery and a little lesser unit archery second choice. You could possibly have a chance at 330 or better in most units. Maybe people will hold out this year on drought and you could sneak in and get the 27 tag.

buckhorn · Feb 12, 2018

I don't know what msolocam said to you in his p.m. but whatever it was I would Seriously consider it.

DonVathome · Feb 17, 2018

I know you are hard core and hit it hard. I drew 27 archery the year after the burn with record rainfall. 2015?

It was amazing. I'm now going for late rifle. Every time I ask knowledgeable locals about the late hunt my ?dream? of it being great vanishes. Lots of tags.

I have never tried but I know some of the best elk hunters (and best hunters in general) who consistently take huge elk archery but fail on late hunts.

If I were you I would hold out for archery for sure! I don't think the wait will be as long as you think and you have a slim chance at a random tag too.

The bowhunt is amazing.

YukonDall · Feb 18, 2018

I HELD OUT FOR ARCHERY, IT WAS WELL WORTH IT. I HUNTED 7W LATE RIFLE ON A PREVIOUS YEAR. GO WITH THE BOW, ITS 10X MORE EXCITING. TAG SOUP HAPPENS MORE OFTEN ON THE LATE RIFLE HUNTS.................YD.

SDBugler · Feb 18, 2018

My understanding of the AZ draw is to put in your "dream hunt" as a first choice and your realistic goal as second choice so I ended up putting in for 27 second choice and 23 first choice (in case I didn't draw in the bonus pass and get real lucky and get drawn early in the random pass). We will see how the cards play out.

Also did the point guard in case the drought continues. I know there is mixed opinions on how the drought affects horn growth. I have some first hand experience with this on a NM 16D early rifle tag a few years back during one of the worst droughts in history. 16D is arguably one of the best tags in NM but during that year the drought had a significant impact on horn growth. I scouted for 7 days prior to the hunt and saw well over 100 bulls but the best I could turn up was +/-300. It was still a fantastic hunt with great bugling and rutting activity.

We will now just have to wait and see how the draws turn out. Good luck to everyone else!

huntazido · Feb 18, 2018

SD,
That is normally a good strategy if you don't have many points and it still might be in your case. However, if you are in the 20% pass on your 2nd choice but not your first choice, you have zero chance of ever drawing your "dream" choice.

I like to rifle deer hunt in 17A (sentimental reasons)but I dream about hunting Big Mule deer on the late rifle hunts north of Colorado River. If I put in for 13B 1st choice and 17A 2nd choice with 3 or more points they never even look at my first choice. Until recently it only took 2 points to be in the 20% for 17A so with my loyalty point and my hunter safety point they never even looked at my first choice. Most people don't understand this. A friend of mine talked to some high ups at G&F and they said they know this problem exists but they have zero interest in correcting it.

Good Luck to you and hope you draw an AZ tag and have a great hunt.

SDBugler · Feb 18, 2018

huntazido

My understanding is that they look at your 1st and 2nd choices in the first bonus point pass and again in the second random pass. I KNOW I can't draw unit 23 in the first pass but have a very slight chance of drawing 27.In this case my first choice is a throw away since I have absolutely no chance in the first draw.

So If I don't draw 27 in the first bonus point pass, I put in 23 as first choice in the rare case that I would get drawn "VERY" early in the second draw. I would also still have a chance at drawing 27 in the second random drawing as well if I get drawn "somewhat" early.

WapitiBob · Feb 18, 2018

LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-18 AT 05:19PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-18 AT 04:50?PM (MST)

SD, your understanding is correct, you just need a low random number for the 1-2 Pass if you don't have the points to pull a tag in the Bonus Pass.

You're in the 20% Pass if you have 1 point or more. The tags may be gone, but you go thru it regardless; every app goes thru it. They also look at your 1st choice first, regardless of what you put down as a 2nd.
What can and does happen, is people will put an easy to draw 1st choice and a slightly harder to draw 2nd choice, drawing out in the Bonus Pass and are now out of the draw, having no chance at the better tag in the 1-2 Pass, where you may have had a good random number and NR tags still available.

SDBugler · Feb 18, 2018

So am I missing something?
With only 15 tags for unit 23 there are no NR tags issued in the first bonus pass. Therefore I KNOW I have no chance and it is a wasted choice in the first drawing. However I still put it down as first choice in case I don't get drawn for 27 in the first pass.

I do have a VERY slight chance of drawing the one NR tag for 23 in the random draw if my name is drawn VERY VERY early. I know it is a long shot but I would be bummed if I was the first name drawn and got a tag that could have been drawn much later in the random drawing process.

WapitiBob · Feb 18, 2018

you did it right; a chance at 27 in the Bonus Pass, and a chance at both in the 1-2 Pass.

huntazido · Feb 18, 2018

SD,
Sorry, I should have said you have no chance of drawing your "dream" hunt in the 1-2 pass if your 2nd choice is in the 20% pass. You still have a chance in the random draw. Very slim odds but there is a chance.

Last year NR's with 14 points made it into the 20% pass. If things stay the same your chance of drawing will be in the random draw.

Good Luck

DonVathome · Feb 19, 2018

If you draw 27 get a hold of me!!!!

CAelknuts · Mar 3, 2018

LAST EDITED ON Mar-03-18 AT 10:38AM (MST)[p]SDBugler, you are asking about two vastly different hunts, both in terms of 'The Experience' as well as trophy expectations. I'm also a NR (with 20 points next year) and I'm 59 years old. I've hunted AZ elk 7 different times, twice on my own tag and 5 times helping other friends who drew. I've hunted early rut and late season, archery, muzzleloader and late rifle. Been elk hunting in units 9, 5BN, 5BS, 22S I'm waiting to draw the exact tag I want and am willing to wait. I am NOT going to compromise on the season just to get drawn.

The Sept-early October rut hunts are AMAZING, no matter which unit I've been in. On every single early hunt, regardless of unit, I've seen bulls bigger than 340", some quite a bit bigger. And I'm not talking just about unit 9, most AZ units have really nice bulls in them. My experience with the early hunts has been lots of bugling and sightings of big bulls. Wonderful weather and beautiful scenery. Hunting as easy or tough as you want to make it.

The late hunts are very different. Lots of hunters and elk not nearly as visible. Cold weather, windy, tough hunting. Tough to find big bulls. Hard hunting. But a lot easier tag to draw. For a reason.

If it was me, I'd hold out for an early season tag in AZ and do my late season elk hunting in other states.

Bugler · Mar 3, 2018

Archery bull in AZ is decent just about everywhere with some units declining and others on the upswing as far as older age class bulls. But dont let eh late rifle hunts scare you or others fool you. Some of these units offer the best late season elk hunts around the US. Good luck