Mule Deer Proposal

[Robiland]

No, purchase of a CWMU tag should not cost points because this would disincentivize people from buying these tags and it could jeopardize the whole CWMU program.

I would be fine getting rid of the whole scam of the CWMU program. More land has been locked up and public locked out of since the start of this program. And dont give me the whole public gets tags crap. They get a fraction. 1 or 2 guys gets to hunt. And usually, they can bring no more than 4 people to help. The one we talked to about moose a few years ago for an old guy, they said we could only have 3 people total. Try to get a moose down and out with 2 people, since the old guy was barely packing the rifle. I have seen lands added to CWMU where we used to get permission to hunt from family or friends. Not anymore.

 

[middlefork]

My guess would be that very few people who are buying a CWMU voucher are also applying for points for the same species.
But if they can buy one anytime they want I see no need for them to also be able to accumulate points for that species.

 

[Vanilla]

The CWMU program needs some tweaks made to it, but this thread is just about how to move deer hunters through the pool.

That said, I see very little chance any CWMU drops out of the program if the hunters that purchase tags lose their points.

If the person in this thread wouldn’t have bought the tag, someone else would have. It’s going to become a time very soon where people have to make hard decisions when it comes to applying for big game in Utah. We need to make it so some people can no longer have their cake and eat it too.

Get a permit, lose your points. No exceptions.

I have been a very vocal proponent of taking all expo and conservation tags and returning them to the state draw. This would be the single biggest help to point creep we could do. However, if they took people’s points if they drew or purchased those tags, I could stomach it a little better than I do now.

Same goes for CWMUs. A person gets a maximum of one buck deer tag in Utah a year. And when they get it, they zero out their points. It needs to happen if we are serious about point creep.

 

[BrowningRage]

I've said for years that ANY CWMU tag should cost a person their Bonus Points. Draw it, lose your points (like now). Buy it, lose your points. Given it, lose your points. Its an LE tag, it has to cost you LE bonus points. No wait period for purchased or gifted CWMU tags, so they can be purchased or gifted every year. I wouldn't mind that. Just keep them out of the public unit draws. It will help improve point creep. IMO

 

[elkassassin]

The CWMU program needs some tweaks made to it, but this thread is just about how to move deer hunters through the pool.

That said, I see very little chance any CWMU drops out of the program if the hunters that purchase tags lose their points.

If the person in this thread wouldn’t have bought the tag, someone else would have. It’s going to become a time very soon where people have to make hard decisions when it comes to applying for big game in Utah. We need to make it so some people can no longer have their cake and eat it too.

Get a permit, lose your points. No exceptions.

I have been a very vocal proponent of taking all expo and conservation tags and returning them to the state draw. This would be the single biggest help to point creep we could do. However, if they took people’s points if they drew or purchased those tags, I could stomach it a little better than I do now.

Hey Nilly?

Have You Talked With PEAYDAY At All On Getting Them tags Back?

I'm Asking Nicely!

Waiting To See Your RANT Of A Reply!

Same goes for CWMUs. A person gets a maximum of one buck deer tag in Utah a year. And when they get it, they zero out their points. It needs to happen if we are serious about point creep.

 

[middlefork]

That's kind of a big ask if you want my opinion. But you didn't.

Is there something inherently wrong with losing points no matter how a tag is procured?

Why would it decrease participation? After all it's about getting a tag. Another opportunity. Get a tag go to the back of the line.

Simple.

 

[MrShane]

It will not decrease participation in buying CWMU tags.
They have years and years of people just drooling over them, just waiting on a list for one to open up.

 

[Vanilla]

Or stay at the front of a line on CWMU and buy the tag next year again, you’re just going to do it with 0 points.

 

[MrShane]

Or stay at the front of a line on CWMU and buy the tag next year again, you’re just going to do it with 0 points.

That is how 99% of them are now.
If ya wanna play, ya gotta pay!

 

[Tank]

I love how government agencies take your money, and then feel the need to to change the rules to regulate every aspect of our lives. Has it occurred to anyone that the vast majority of those Lifetime License holders are 60+yrs old. How many 60yr old's are getting after it in Utah's mountains. Most are barely getting out of the truck to their UTV, to enjoy a ride up the mtn on opening weekend. I bought my LL on the last day they were offered, and I was 18, (I'm 51 now). LL holders aren't the problem for Utah's deer herd management. For the record, I have killed 1 Utah buck in the last 20yrs (sounds like we are the problem).
They sure were happy to take our $500 for a LL, when you could buy your annual hunting license for under $30 each yr. What bad decisions was our LL money bailing them out of then? Makes me wonder if the UDWR is a government agency? It sounds like it's run very similar to a Social Security program...

 

[gundog2]

I would be fine getting rid of the whole scam of the CWMU program. More land has been locked up and public locked out of since the start of this program. And dont give me the whole public gets tags crap. They get a fraction. 1 or 2 guys gets to hunt. And usually, they can bring no more than 4 people to help. The one we talked to about moose a few years ago for an old guy, they said we could only have 3 people total. Try to get a moose down and out with 2 people, since the old guy was barely packing the rifle. I have seen lands added to CWMU where we used to get permission to hunt from family or friends. Not anymore.

I wasn’t necessarily trying to defend the CWMU program, just saying that making people use their points to purchase a CWMU tag is not going to sit well with the CWMU hunters or owners. I have had mixed experiences with CWMUs and I really don’t have any strong feelings one way or another if the CWMU program is worth preserving.

As far as CWMU rules concerning the number of non-hunter helpers, I wish hunters would self-regulate the number of helpers hunts. One or two helpers in the field should be enough for most hunts. At some point, it becomes a matter of fair chase, pitting the hunters abilities against the wariness and abilities of the game.

 

[Vanilla]

I wasn’t necessarily trying to defend the CWMU program, just saying that making people use their points to purchase a CWMU tag is not going to sit well with the CWMU hunters or owners. I have had mixed experiences with CWMUs and I really don’t have any strong feelings one way or another if the CWMU program is worth preserving.

But this proposal shared isn’t about CWMU’s and making their operators happy. It’s about moving people through the deer pool and point creep. If we are serious about addressing point creep, how CWMU operators feel about selling their tags should not crack the top 100 issues to consider when making a change like this. It probably shouldn’t be considered at all.

As far as CWMU rules concerning the number of non-hunter helpers, I wish hunters would self-regulate the number of helpers hunts. One or two helpers in the field should be enough for most hunts. At some point, it becomes a matter of fair chase, pitting the hunters abilities against the wariness and abilities of the game.

So on my general deer hunt next, do you have any advise for which of my 3 daughters doesn’t get to come with? Or maybe I should tell my wife she isn’t welcome as that just isn’t fair chase to have them all with me?

I get that we all hunt for different reasons, and I think there is room in the field for all those reasons, but if we ever get to the point that we are claiming our ethics mandate we can’t hunt with our family and friends, count me out. I’ll just go fly fishing and leave the elitist snobbery to this new age hunter that thinks it’s about things other than the relationships and memories.

I can’t imagine how many opportunities my dad sacrificed to drag his boys along with him from very early ages, but I’m grateful he did. It’s a pretty sad state of affairs these days what hunting is becoming. It looks very little like it did back in the 80s when I was introduced to it. And that isn’t a good thing.

 

[elkassassin]

But this proposal shared isn’t about CWMU’s and making their operators happy. It’s about moving people through the deer pool and point creep. If we are serious about addressing point creep, how CWMU operators feel about selling their tags should not crack the top 100 issues to consider when making a change like this. It probably shouldn’t be considered at all.



So on my general deer hunt next, do you have any advise for which of my 3 daughters doesn’t get to come with? Or maybe I should tell my wife she isn’t welcome as that just isn’t fair chase to have them all with me?

So Nilly?

The Good News Is Dad Might Not Be Hunting For A While!

Now Before You Get All PISSY Nilly!

I'm Not Trying To Raise Your Blood Pressure!

Out Of Your 3 Daughters I'd Guess There's Fairly Good Chance That A Couple Tags Could Maybe Be Drawn!

The One/Ones That Don't Draw Let Em Earn Some Points!

Worst Case Scenario: Rotate Them 3 Daughters On The Mentoring System With Your LL!

Why Can't The Daughter/Daughters That Don't Have a Tag/Tags Trail Along With You?

This Is Where I Was trying To SPLAIN To You About The Future Hunting For Our Future Generations Of Youth When You went On One Of Your Rants Again!

Best Of Luck To All On The Draws!

I get that we all hunt for different reasons, and I think there is room in the field for all those reasons, but if we ever get to the point that we are claiming our ethics mandate we can’t hunt with our family and friends, count me out. I’ll just go fly fishing and leave the elitist snobbery to this new age hunter that thinks it’s about things other than the relationships and memories.

I can’t imagine how many opportunities my dad sacrificed to drag his boys along with him from very early ages, but I’m grateful he did. It’s a pretty sad state of affairs these days what hunting is becoming. It looks very little like it did back in the 80s when I was introduced to it. And that isn’t a good thing.

 

[Vanilla]

I was told only one, maybe two non-tag holders should be allowed on hunts. Any more than that would be a violation of fair chase.

I was just responding to the opinion shared with a question asking for advice if I followed that opinion.

 

[elkassassin]

So?

Is That An MM Law/Rule?

I was told only one, maybe two non-tag holders should be allowed on hunts. Any more than that would be a violation of fair chase.

I was just responding to the opinion shared with a question asking for advice if I followed that opinion.

 

[gundog2]

But this proposal shared isn’t about CWMU’s and making their operators happy. It’s about moving people through the deer pool and point creep. If we are serious about addressing point creep, how CWMU operators feel about selling their tags should not crack the top 100 issues to consider when making a change like this. It probably shouldn’t be considered at all.



So on my general deer hunt next, do you have any advise for which of my 3 daughters doesn’t get to come with? Or maybe I should tell my wife she isn’t welcome as that just isn’t fair chase to have them all with me?

I get that we all hunt for different reasons, and I think there is room in the field for all those reasons, but if we ever get to the point that we are claiming our ethics mandate we can’t hunt with our family and friends, count me out. I’ll just go fly fishing and leave the elitist snobbery to this new age hunter that thinks it’s about things other than the relationships and memories.

I can’t imagine how many opportunities my dad sacrificed to drag his boys along with him from very early ages, but I’m grateful he did. It’s a pretty sad state of affairs these days what hunting is becoming. It looks very little like it did back in the 80s when I was introduced to it. And that isn’t a good thing.

I suggested that hunters self-regulate the number of helpers they bring with them, as a matter of fair chase. I did not suggest any new rules, especially if they would be unenforceable. I’ve been there myself bringing my wife and young kids. This is not an issue for me in the slightest way. You are not creating a question of fair-chase under these circumstances so I’m not even sure why you bring it up?

 

[Vanilla]

I didn’t bring it up. You did. You are the one that said one or two helpers and anything else violates fair chase.

I was just wondering how your ethics would work out my problem for me. I want to be ethical, after all!

But mostly just wanted to show how ridiculous of a statement I think that is. I’d rather go home empty handed with family and friends to share the memories with than kill something big on my own. I do it for different reasons than you do, and that’s okay. Just don’t go making fake boundaries suggesting that your way is superior to others. Do it your way and enjoy it. Let others do the same.

 

[gundog2]

I didn’t bring it up. You did. You are the one that said one or two helpers and anything else violates fair chase.

I was just wondering how your ethics would work out my problem for me. I want to be ethical, after all!

But mostly just wanted to show how ridiculous of a statement I think that is. I’d rather go home empty handed with family and friends to share the memories with than kill something big on my own. I do it for different reasons than you do, and that’s okay. Just don’t go making fake boundaries suggesting that your way is superior to others. Do it your way and enjoy it. Let others do the same.

You are suggesting things that go way beyond what I wrote or intended to say. If you can’t understand what I was trying to say, then this conversation is hopeless.

 

[Vanilla]

Couldn’t agree more about the conversation being hopeless.

 

[Elkaholic1]

There are all kinds of opportunity to consider.


Utah buck deer recommendation
Unit 7 (Kamas) will be used in the example.

• Utah has shown rapid human growth and the demand on buck Mule Deer tags in the state is increasing. There has been a divide in what hunters are looking for and can be simplified into 3 groups.

1. Opportunity hunter: wants a tag every year and is willing to harvest any legal buck.
2. Trophy hunter: wants to harvest mature bucks and is willing to wait for a tag if it will provide a quality hunt and a fair opportunity to harvest a mature buck. 3.5+ years old.
3. Sportsman hunter: Doesn’t really care if they harvest a buck but would like an opportunity to just be outdoors and most likely only harvest a mature buck. They are usually okay waiting for a tag but they will find a tag in a leftover or 2nd choice hunt if they really want to hunt.

PROPOSAL:

Change season structure to accommodate all hunters

Option 1: Combine Limited Entry, CWMU and General Deer into one system. Moving away from Bonus Points and converting all bonus points into preference points. All units will keep the same management objectives as they are now according to the deer plan. Season restructuring will allow the opportunity hunter to most likely get a tag frequently while the trophy and sportsman hunter will have an opportunity at hunt that offers a quality experience and trophy potential in which more demand for that tag they may get a tag every 3-5 years which most of those hunters are ok with waiting.

Dedicated hunters would not be allowed to hunt in a “late” hunt designation in this case. A separate draw would be needed for dedicated hunters for a “Late” stamp Which would allow them to hunt in a late season and would be limited quota for a stamp.

Option 2: Keep the system we have now and add late hunts within the “limited Entry” designation on ALL deer units including the premium limited entry units and limited entry units. This will help with point creep and move hunters through the draw system. Waiting periods would need to be examined to determine if they will be needed for the general unit limited entry hunt or not. I would not recommend waiting periods for these hunts unless we are in a one deer system instead of three.

Season Structure and permit allocation: 2021 for example
2021 Kamas total Permits: 2800
General:
Archery: Aug 21 - Sept 17 (500 tags)
Muzzleloader: Sept 29 - Oct 7 (700 tags)
Early rifle: Oct 13 - 17 (500 tags)
Mid rifle: Oct 23 - 31 (1070 tags)
(LE) Late Muzzleloader: Nov 3 - 11 (10 tags)
(LE) Late Rifle: Nov 13 - 17 (5 tags)
(LE) Late Rifle youth only: Nov 20-30 (10 tags)
(LE) Late Archery Dec 4 - 12 (5 tags) - or a HAMS hunt

All Utah Deer units can handle this structure and tag allocation Biologically. It will also create a lot of opportunity for all hunters in all stages of hunting. Hunts with the late designation should only be offered to residents only.

 

[elkassassin]

LONG RANGE RIFLE HUNTS In November Huh?

I Know You Didn't List Many But I Just Don't See The Deer Herd In This State In Shape Enough To Hammer Them That Late!

There are all kinds of opportunity to consider.


Utah buck deer recommendation
Unit 7 (Kamas) will be used in the example.

• Utah has shown rapid human growth and the demand on buck Mule Deer tags in the state is increasing. There has been a divide in what hunters are looking for and can be simplified into 3 groups.

1. Opportunity hunter: wants a tag every year and is willing to harvest any legal buck.
2. Trophy hunter: wants to harvest mature bucks and is willing to wait for a tag if it will provide a quality hunt and a fair opportunity to harvest a mature buck. 3.5+ years old.
3. Sportsman hunter: Doesn’t really care if they harvest a buck but would like an opportunity to just be outdoors and most likely only harvest a mature buck. They are usually okay waiting for a tag but they will find a tag in a leftover or 2nd choice hunt if they really want to hunt.

PROPOSAL:

Change season structure to accommodate all hunters

Option 1: Combine Limited Entry, CWMU and General Deer into one system. Moving away from Bonus Points and converting all bonus points into preference points. All units will keep the same management objectives as they are now according to the deer plan. Season restructuring will allow the opportunity hunter to most likely get a tag frequently while the trophy and sportsman hunter will have an opportunity at hunt that offers a quality experience and trophy potential in which more demand for that tag they may get a tag every 3-5 years which most of those hunters are ok with waiting.

Dedicated hunters would not be allowed to hunt in a “late” hunt designation in this case. A separate draw would be needed for dedicated hunters for a “Late” stamp Which would allow them to hunt in a late season and would be limited quota for a stamp.

Option 2: Keep the system we have now and add late hunts within the “limited Entry” designation on ALL deer units including the premium limited entry units and limited entry units. This will help with point creep and move hunters through the draw system. Waiting periods would need to be examined to determine if they will be needed for the general unit limited entry hunt or not. I would not recommend waiting periods for these hunts unless we are in a one deer system instead of three.

Season Structure and permit allocation: 2021 for example
2021 Kamas total Permits: 2800
General:
Archery: Aug 21 - Sept 17 (500 tags)
Muzzleloader: Sept 29 - Oct 7 (700 tags)
Early rifle: Oct 13 - 17 (500 tags)
Mid rifle: Oct 23 - 31 (1070 tags)
(LE) Late Muzzleloader: Nov 3 - 11 (10 tags)
(LE) Late Rifle: Nov 13 - 17 (5 tags)
(LE) Late Rifle youth only: Nov 20-30 (10 tags)
(LE) Late Archery Dec 4 - 12 (5 tags) - or a HAMS hunt

All Utah Deer units can handle this structure and tag allocation Biologically. It will also create a lot of opportunity for all hunters in all stages of hunting. Hunts with the late designation should only be offered to residents only.

 

[elkassassin]

Any Way We Could Squeeze A January Flipper Hunt In There Somewhere?

 

[southernutahhunter]

That might work if the deer numbers were actually true, but we all know the deer numbers are no where near what the calculator claims

 

[Robiland]

There are all kinds of opportunity to consider.


Utah buck deer recommendation
Unit 7 (Kamas) will be used in the example.

• Utah has shown rapid human growth and the demand on buck Mule Deer tags in the state is increasing. There has been a divide in what hunters are looking for and can be simplified into 3 groups.

1. Opportunity hunter: wants a tag every year and is willing to harvest any legal buck.
2. Trophy hunter: wants to harvest mature bucks and is willing to wait for a tag if it will provide a quality hunt and a fair opportunity to harvest a mature buck. 3.5+ years old.
3. Sportsman hunter: Doesn’t really care if they harvest a buck but would like an opportunity to just be outdoors and most likely only harvest a mature buck. They are usually okay waiting for a tag but they will find a tag in a leftover or 2nd choice hunt if they really want to hunt.

PROPOSAL:

Change season structure to accommodate all hunters

Option 1: Combine Limited Entry, CWMU and General Deer into one system. Moving away from Bonus Points and converting all bonus points into preference points. All units will keep the same management objectives as they are now according to the deer plan. Season restructuring will allow the opportunity hunter to most likely get a tag frequently while the trophy and sportsman hunter will have an opportunity at hunt that offers a quality experience and trophy potential in which more demand for that tag they may get a tag every 3-5 years which most of those hunters are ok with waiting.

Dedicated hunters would not be allowed to hunt in a “late” hunt designation in this case. A separate draw would be needed for dedicated hunters for a “Late” stamp Which would allow them to hunt in a late season and would be limited quota for a stamp.

Option 2: Keep the system we have now and add late hunts within the “limited Entry” designation on ALL deer units including the premium limited entry units and limited entry units. This will help with point creep and move hunters through the draw system. Waiting periods would need to be examined to determine if they will be needed for the general unit limited entry hunt or not. I would not recommend waiting periods for these hunts unless we are in a one deer system instead of three.

Season Structure and permit allocation: 2021 for example
2021 Kamas total Permits: 2800
General:
Archery: Aug 21 - Sept 17 (500 tags)
Muzzleloader: Sept 29 - Oct 7 (700 tags)
Early rifle: Oct 13 - 17 (500 tags)
Mid rifle: Oct 23 - 31 (1070 tags)
(LE) Late Muzzleloader: Nov 3 - 11 (10 tags)
(LE) Late Rifle: Nov 13 - 17 (5 tags)
(LE) Late Rifle youth only: Nov 20-30 (10 tags)
(LE) Late Archery Dec 4 - 12 (5 tags) - or a HAMS hunt

All Utah Deer units can handle this structure and tag allocation Biologically. It will also create a lot of opportunity for all hunters in all stages of hunting. Hunts with the late designation should only be offered to residents only.

So, option 2 would be to hunt deer to exhaustion? From Aug to Jan? That is a hard pass for me! WE CANT KEEP HUNTING DEER ALL DAMN YEAR LONG if we want them to have the body fat needed to survive winters. And its the same for all the cow elk hunts into the end of January!