arizona mule deer 12 A or B west late

rambopup4 · May 9, 2015

I have 16 non resident points going into the 2015 deer draw. I'll never be able to draw 13 A or B. I've narrowed my choice to one of the following:
12A west late
12B late
12B west late
Any Arizona hunters on this forum who have hunted the 12 units? All occur during Nov 20 - 29. Are the 12 B hunts strictly migration hunts on deer from Utah? How has the fence Utah Dept of Transportation erected on Hwy 89 between Page and Kanab affected the migration? any advice or recommendations would greatly be appreciated.

wildfin · May 10, 2015

I hunted 12b west the 1st year of the fence during the early hunt and was told the older bucks were not going through,I did see hundreds of deer that did including bucks,the deer go to the buckskins with or without weather.during my hunt a tag holder with the 12b tag killed a large buck on the east side were there is resident deer.I want to get 12b west again and will hold out for it.the ghost your looking for will be there sometime. I also hunted 12a west late and past on super bucks daily that were typicals and I did not go to the kibabe for a typical.In the kibabe ,if you dont get snow the deer will be from the summer range to the winter range, which did not help my hunt there,both hunts were awesome,the road hunters will mess the hunting up alot but will be gone buy the end of the hunt and 12b west had plenty of room to get away from the roads.I think that the pressure on the kibabe from all the tags and different hunts makes me more interested in 12b west,I think that the muzzleloader hunt is only 25 tags and the deer will stay out more and ther will be hundreds.good luck

rockymtnhunter · May 10, 2015

My 2 cents - Recent studies show that the majority of Utah deer migrate south during late October about three weeks before the 12B late hunt. There are resident deer in 12B, but the Kaibab herd migrates into it at about the same time as the 12B late hunt. I've read that about 60% of the Kaibab herd moves west onto 12A West, about 20% moves east onto 12A East, and about 20% move north toward Buckskin Mtn/UT-AZ boundary area. My hunting experience there since 1971 generally supports those numbers. It's likely that many bucks taken during the late 12B hunt are actually UT deer.

Migrating deer are generally adjusting to the fence and are using the crossings. Coincidentally, the UT deer hunt happens during the peak of the migration, so UT hunters have actually been watching the crossing areas - and that adversely affects deer trying to cross the highway.

I'll send a PM to you with more info/advice. Thanks

rambopup4 · May 10, 2015

Thanks for this information. I would love to talk with you via phone for advice. PM to me at: [email protected]
I'll send my phone # or vice versa. I need to get the choice right as this will be the only time in my lifetime I will draw a Kaibab tag

rambopup4 · May 10, 2015

Thanks for this info. In 12 A west late, if one is selective, what size typical could one expect? Please send a PM or my cell #:
850-694-9262. This will be the only time in my lifetime as a non resident I'll be able to hunt the Kaibab. 14 years worth of applications plus the loyalty bonus point plus the hunter ed class. Needless to say, I've got to get it right as to the area I select.

oilcan · May 10, 2015

I also have 16 points as a N.R. And have been chasing after a 12AW late tag for years. I'm no expert on the Arizona odds but I can tell you the chances of us drawing that tag are pretty slim and the Tag reductions over the last years will not help.

azhuntin · May 11, 2015

16 points, nr should be about 36% draw this year. It looks like there are 37 non residents applying for that tag with the same amount of points.

azdogman · May 11, 2015

I would do 12a w for sure over 12b

azhuntin · May 11, 2015

I agree 12a over 12b

brian390 · May 11, 2015

12aw over 12b in my opinion. I've been with people hunting 12aw late three times and one time in 12b late.

Deerdon · May 12, 2015

Don't forget that there was quite a reduction in tags this year...

Oct 23 - Nov 1, 2015 (2,4,36) 12A West Any antlered deer from 500 to 450 (-50)
Nov 20 - Nov 29, 2015 (2,4,36) 12A West Any antlered deer from 135 to 100 (-35)
Juniors:
No Hunt Nov 7 - Nov 10, 2014 (2,4,12,36) 12A West Antlerless deer from 100 to 0 (-100)
Oct 9 - Oct 12, 2015 (2,4,12,36) 12A West Antlerless deer from 250 to 400 (+150)
Archery:
Aug 21 - Sep 10, 2015 (14) 12A and 12B Any antlered deer from 800 to 550 (-250)

rambopup4 · May 12, 2015

If I am lucky enough to draw the tag can a non resident do this hunt successfully for a 190 or better deer? I've only been to the Jacob lake area once in my life.

rockymtnhunter · May 12, 2015

100 tags this year for 12A West (late) probably translates into 70-80 bucks being harvested; of those there may be 1-3 that score 190+ - there are a few bigger bucks, but it usually takes extraordinary circumstances to put tag on one. The odds of taking a buck like that, whether you're a resident or non-resident, are slim but possible and probably depend on the successful convergence of habitat, weather, scouting, determination, patience, work, skill & luck. The Kaibab's reputation can overcome a hunter's senses & sensibilities. Stay realistic and enjoy the experience of hunting one of the most unique, scenic & historic areas if you're lucky enough to draw a tag.

oilcan · May 12, 2015

And/or hire a guide to increase your chances.

Codylee1985 · May 12, 2015

I would be happy with either hunt! I have been hunting the Kaibab for almost 20 years and have been a part of killing 2 bucks at the magical 200" mark. My moms 12b buck about 10 years ago, and my 12 a archery buck last year!
We have had several other successful hunts w several 170-190" bucks, but those big bucks are very hard to get killed!
That being said, what makes the Kaibab such an amazing place is it is always possible that you will have a shot at that monster. My dad and I hunted 12b late every day of the hunt last year, and he had a couple opportunities at bucks close to the 200 mark, but it didn't happen dangit! The 12b hunt can be great on years like my mom had the tag, her 199 5/8" buck she killed opening am was the 3rd biggest buck we saw scouting the week ahead of time, but other years without the big snows in the high country can be tougher.
Good luck, there is no bad choice! Every year is a bit different so if you draw I suggest taking the week off ahead of the hunt if possible to give it your best effort!!!

LIK2HNT · May 14, 2015

I may be wrong, but I think as a NR you need to have at least 18 points (one under max.) to have a chance at a 12AW late tag. Had the tag last year and was disappointed in myself for getting frustrated with people and calling it quits after 4 days of hunting and a week of pre-hunt scouting before opener. Great hunt to see 200 plus deer a day with 40 to 50 being bucks.

Bill

msolocam · May 14, 2015

My advice...start shooting a bow and draw a strip archery tag. Way way way better than any kaibab hunt.

cmbbulldog · May 14, 2015

>If I am lucky enough to
>draw the tag can a
>non resident do this hunt
>successfully for a 190 or
>better deer? I've only
>been to the Jacob lake
>area once in my life.
>

Yes. My dad and I have both had the tag 2 of the past 4 years, and we both killed bucks at or above that mark. We had never set foot in the unit prior to that.

But, you have to pass on a bunch of deer and be willing to walk away with tag soup to do it.... and not many folks are willing to do that. I also killed my buck in the middle of the day when everyone else was back at camp.

buckhorn · May 14, 2015

Bob?
Check your P.M.

DonMartin · May 15, 2015

I agree 100% with assessment to hunt 12A West late, vs 12B..

Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters

goldhunter · May 29, 2015

Don and others that prefer 12AW, why is that? A more enjoyable hunt? More deer? Better terrain? Trophy potential?

I personally like to hunt by glassing and moving, repeat. I would not want to sit on a water hole all day nor just sit on a vantage point and glass all day. How do these units fit that type of mobile hunting?

cmbbulldog · May 29, 2015

>Don and others that prefer 12AW,
>why is that? A
>more enjoyable hunt? More
>deer? Better terrain? Trophy potential?
>
>
>I personally like to hunt by
>glassing and moving, repeat.
>I would not want to
>sit on a water hole
>all day nor just sit
>on a vantage point and
>glass all day. How
>do these units fit that
>type of mobile hunting?

Great unit for mobile hunting.

goldhunter · Jun 1, 2015

Thanks, looks good on google earth and from what I'm hearing and reading its my kind of unit. Seems like it would be a much better unit than the strip units for DIY hunter.

DonMartin · Jun 1, 2015

12A West (late) is one of our favorite hunts to guide on. Glassing, then spot and stalk is our preferred method.
You can see 200 deer a day, and a lot of bucks, but most will be smaller for sure.
Last year we saw just TWO giant bucks on the 12A West hunt, and one got taken by a guide behind our camp and scored over 200 I think.
The other giant we saw was missed by our hunter at 200 yards due to a faulty scope...bummer, best buck I had EVER seen up there!
Have also hunted 12B on the late hunt in the past and while a good hunt, and seeing a lot of deer, never saw a GIANT there.
I would agree that given a choice, I'd go with 12A West over 12B Late. Just my opinion though.
I've been hunting up there since I got out of the U.S. Army in 1972, so have seen a lot of changes on the Kaibab--good and bad!

Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters

YBO · Jun 1, 2015

If your one tough patient SOB, I'd put in for 12b East. Few deer but the potential for a HODAD is there.

goldhunter · Jun 2, 2015

Is buckskin in the west unit? I can't see the boundary on the online topo map, print is too small.

I can see from the photo's on google earth that when the weather is good it is some beautiful country. I bet when the weather is not good you probably wonder where you went wrong in life.

HF has it as "mentally challenging". Probably means your not going to see a damn thing, mile after mile nothing.

Don if I even saw two live bucks like that I would consider the hunt a success because I had my chance.

Thanks

azhuntin · Jun 2, 2015

Buckskins are in 12 bw

DonMartin · Jun 10, 2015

My 12A West Late hunter did exactly that. He knew what had happened (had his chance) and he stayed strong and ended up taking the tag home, despite seeing easily over a 100 other bucks.

It is called hunting and not killing after all, and stuff does happen!

Looking forward to this year and hope I get another viewing of that giant buck he missed. We never saw another hunter out where he was, but then again, we never saw the buck again after the miss..

Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters

goldhunter · Jun 10, 2015

I ended up picking 12AW late as first choice B late as second. The west side just seemed like a classic hunt in some great country. Good luck to all.

Thanks again for the input.

tooele · Jun 15, 2015

You made a good choice, stick to 12 a west much bigger bucks and more of them. Leave us to hunt the lesser bucks of 12 b west.

Ive been on that hunt 7 years in a row now, there might just be a few out there that would surprise you, but I think with all those units you are splitting hairs, just depends on who you talk to and which unit they spend the most time in.

goldhunter · Jun 16, 2015

I know 12b especially the east side is considered the better trophy area by many including Eastmans and Huntinfool. However, I am not a true trophy hunter. I would like to knock down a heavy horned deep forked main frame buck that would gross B&C, but I am guessing it would take some serious luck for an outsider to come in, unguided and pull this off. Good thing I'm feeling like this is my lucky year.

In the end I picked 12AW because of the vast amount of good country and the reports of good deer numbers. Hard to imagine coming away being disappointed in that hunt. If I absolutely needed a 200"+ buck maybe I could be disappointed, but that is not me.

As far as going guided, I absolutely have nothing against guides or the people that use their services. I just prefer to DIY whenever possible. If I were to hire a guide in this case Don Martin would be my first choice because of the honest and non-self serving help he offers on this very forum. Thanks again Don.

And thank everyone for the discussion. Unlike other posts I don't think anyone was told to sit down and shut up.

Salmon · Jun 16, 2015

If I am the hunter that Don is talking about, had a great time and passed on Many,many bucks. Don was great and helped me every way he could. Killing isn't what is about, experience was great.

birdog · Jun 17, 2015

I think both units are great. What I don't like is when these guides think there services are worth so much. If you go into either unit with no experience and a map and start driving around and glassing from different points, you are going to see tons of deer and nice bucks. Some how all these guides on a strip or Kaibab hunt feel like their services are worth 4 or 5 thousand dollars. It probably only costs them 3 to 4 hundred bucks for food if they feed you well. Gas another 3 or so hundred bucks. They can't really scout the bucks in 12 a and b as its all in the migration. So the fact that they have experience in the unit costs 4000 dollars. I guess if the market bears it, but guys are crazy to pay it.

HalfAce · Jun 17, 2015

I've never went guided anywhere, but have done my fair share of looking around at prices for guided hunts in different states and areas. Guys pay 4k+ to hunt for only 5 days in places where deer have nowhere near the genetics as the Kaibab and in sometimes easier country to hunt. If i were going to pay to go guided, i think this area and the 10 day season is a bargain for 4k.

Dont kid yourself, anyone can go solo to any unit in any state and find a deer or two on their hunt; but your paying for the knowledge to hunt the little spots that hold bigger deer that usually take multiple seasons and trips to "stumble" into if you were to do it on your own.

rambopup4 · Jun 20, 2015

Don,
I am the guy who started this thread. Going into 2015 the tags for 12A West late are reduced from 130 to 100. That means 10 for non residents. Huntinfool says and AZGFD draw data says 16 points were needed to draw the 13 NR tags in 2014. Do I stand any chance of drawing in 2015 with 16 points? Or will all 10 of those NR tags go to guys with 17 NR points? Is the 20% bonus pass round even applicable if all 10 NR tags are allotted in the first go round to applicants with 17 points? Please advise.

rambopup4 · Jun 20, 2015

Don,
I am the guy who started this thread. Going into 2015 the tags for 12A West late are reduced from 130 to 100. That means 10 for non residents. Huntinfool says and AZGFD draw data says 16 points were needed to draw the 13 NR tags in 2014. Do I stand any chance of drawing in 2015 with 16 points? Or will all 10 of those NR tags go to guys with 17 NR points? Is the 20% bonus pass round even applicable if all 10 NR tags are allotted in the first go round to applicants with 17 points? Please advise.

azdogman · Jun 27, 2015

Birddog. You are clueless bud.

AZ4life · Jun 28, 2015

>Birddog. You are clueless
>bud.

Yep

CAelknuts · Jun 30, 2015

Birddog, I'm curious...

Do you have a job? Or, do you live on public assistance? If you work, do you expect to be paid a fair wage for your services to your employer?

Do you really expect an outfitter and his cooks, guides, etc to work for hardly anything beyond the cost of the food and fuel?

Did somebody say you're clueless?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!

Idcurs · Jul 2, 2015

You can't scout bucks in 12a-wow?Not many bucks in 12a migrate any where but 12a,some late in the year may cross kanab creek and go to 13a.But most stay in 12a,some in the north part of the unit go to 12b.we have taken some big boys off 12a and knew where they were long before the season!!!!