Backcountry Hunters and Anglers survey

>>I'm having trouble washing the blood
>>out of my patagonia snap
>>t. Any suggestions?
>
>Yeah, use it as toilet paper!
>Patagonia is an eco-terror group,
>plain and simple. As a
>proud 5th generation rancher I
>could never support a group
>who has an activist wing
>dedicated to ending ranching. And
>it sickens me to see
>how some of you folks
>who claim to be sportsmen
>get in bed with groups
>who hate agriculture and family
>ranches. I will wager I
>have done more for wildlife
>in my 50 years as
>a rancher than some groups
>do in a lifetime. That
>isn't bravado, its simply a
>fact.


Are you one of the whiney 100 or so 5th generation ranchers that walts into that central wildlife board meeting a couple years back demanding all the elk on Monroe be killed off?
 
Still waiting for all those links of BHA supporting the grizzly hunt. So far all I've seen on this thread is Yvons comments.


#livelikezac
 
LMAO!!!! Muley claims that he's not an $FW fan boy but comes running to the rescue every time someone bad mouths them.

Muley claims to be all for public land but then hates every one and every thing that actually has the balls to put their money where their mouth is in support of public land. Unlike his beloved neutral on all things that screw over Utah sportsmen $FW.

Muley you don't like Newberg, you don't like BHA. Nate Simmons is a preacher of public lands, you going to start hating on him next?
 
> BHA takes the GREENIE Side
>on Wolves!
>
>Nuff Said!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I know so many people in
>so many places
>They make allot of money but
>they got sad faces
>
>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D

The internet is a big place elkassassin. Back up your claim. Where is there organizational or foundational support for your statement?

And don't take some random person and act like he speaks for the group. I'm a director for Utah and I don't take the "GREENIE Side" so if your example is a small piece of anecdotal evidence, I personally am the counter to that point. I don't know a single person on the Utah Board or chapter that takes the "GREENIE Side" and I've met a ton of them.

If you're going to assign a position to a group, you should be able to support it or you have a duty to withdraw your claim. If you have proof, I'll acknowledge and publicly disagree with their position as I pick my own beliefs and don't follow somebody else by being told what to think.

My beliefs about other groups (SFW) are based on foundational and organizational positions that I've supported countless times. I'll respect your opinion if it's based on facts, so I'd ask you to do the same courtesy to MM readers that I've offered with my posts.

Let's hear it.

PS. BHA was formed a decade after the wolf reintroduction, so the argument that they helped it pass or supported it is out the window. People should really stop reading the ALC for their misinformation.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
>Still waiting for all those links
>of BHA supporting the grizzly
>hunt. So far all I've
>seen on this thread is
>Yvons comments.
>
>
>#livelikezac

Go read Buzz's posts above. Unless your idea is that some dude in Colorado (who you've posted about multiple times) speaks for BHA because of his position about bears in the '90s; but the Wyoming Chapter issuing a statement last year isn't good enough. It seems you're grasping at straws trying to get your square position in a round hole. How can David Petersen in 1992 reflect BHA today but the Wyoming Chapter isn't good enough? It's a disingenuous argument.


You assigned BHA the position of being anti-grizzly hunt. You've made a baseless claim and expect others to refute it. You have a duty to back up what you said and show where they opposed it. Not the other way around. Still waiting.

We know where Patagonia stands and nobody disputes it (or defends Patagonia for it), but you clearly said BHA so back it up. Still waiting.

Tell me the truth... Do you have a picture of Yvon Choinnard in your room? I've never seen somebody as obsessed with somebody else as you are with Yvon... and he's not even part of BHA. He was one of many speakers but you keep going back to him. You've said his name a half dozen times in this thread alone, and you only have 12 posts.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
>Hoss,
>You?re ok with them supporting the
>wolf reintroduction?
>
>BHA is reliant on those groups?
>That would tell me they
>don't have any of their
>own clout or money.
>So they side with companies
>and groups that openly are
>anti hunting, yes you're right
>I'm pretty twisted with that
>agendment. As should any
>real hunter.


Is this a joke muley???

You mean kinda like how $FW is reliant on government cheese and food stamps from the state of Utah?

That would tell me they don't have any of their own clout or money either. So they side with people and groups that openly are anti-public land, side with people who took your access to Utah's rivers and streams away. Yes you're right I'm pretty twisted with that
agendment. As should any real Utah sportsmen.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-18 AT 00:52AM (MST)[p]>>Still waiting for all those links
>>of BHA supporting the grizzly
>>hunt. So far all I've
>>seen on this thread is
>>Yvons comments.
>>
>>
>>#livelikezac
>
>Go read Buzz's posts above. Unless
>your idea is that some
>dude in Colorado (who you've
>posted about multiple times) speaks
>for BHA because of his
>position about bears in the
>'90s; but the Wyoming Chapter
>issuing a statement last year
>isn't good enough. It seems
>you're grasping at straws trying
>to get your square position
>in a round hole. How
>can David Petersen in 1992
>reflect BHA today but the
>Wyoming Chapter isn't good enough?
>It's a disingenuous argument.
>
>
>You assigned BHA the position of
>being anti-grizzly hunt. You've made
>a baseless claim and expect
>others to refute it. You
>have a duty to back
>up what you said and
>show where they opposed it.
>Not the other way around.
>Still waiting.
>
>We know where Patagonia stands and
>nobody disputes it (or defends
>Patagonia for it), but you
>clearly said BHA so back
>it up. Still waiting.
>
>Tell me the truth... Do you
>have a picture of Yvon
>Choinnard in your room? I've
>never seen somebody as obsessed
>with somebody else as you
>are with Yvon... and he's
>not even part of BHA.
>He was one of many
>speakers but you keep going
>back to him. You've said
>his name a half dozen
>times in this thread alone,
>and you only have 12
>posts.
>
>Grizzly
>
>-----------------------------------------
>"This is a classic case of
>a handful of greedy fly
>fishermen getting too greedy." -Don
>Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>told to KUTV
>
>"It's time to revisit the widely
>accepted principle in the United
>States and Canada that game
>is a public resource."
>-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>quoted in Anchorage Daily News
>


So yer sayin BHA took Yvons money and made a statement? Who read the statement outside of BHA members?

These guys took Yvons money and put billboards up all over the country. I get to drive by this one everytime I leave my house, along with thousands of others traveling down I-25 everyday, still.



http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos_2018/3726750915.jpeg


And that "some dude from Colorado " you referred to, he was the founder of the Colorado chapter of BHA. I assume they had some sort of vetting process and an approval process for chapter founders? Maybe not.

#livelikezac
 
>> BHA takes the GREENIE Side
>>on Wolves!
>>
>>Nuff Said!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>I know so many people in
>>so many places
>>They make allot of money but
>>they got sad faces
>>
>>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
>
>The internet is a big place
>elkassassin. Back up your claim.
>Where is there organizational or
>foundational support for your statement?
>
>
>And don't take some random person
>and act like he speaks
>for the group. I'm a
>director for Utah and I
>don't take the "GREENIE Side"
>so if your example is
>a small piece of anecdotal
>evidence, I personally am the
>counter to that point. I
>don't know a single person
>on the Utah Board or
>chapter that takes the "GREENIE
>Side" and I've met a
>ton of them.
>
>If you're going to assign a
>position to a group, you
>should be able to support
>it or you have a
>duty to withdraw your claim.
>If you have proof, I'll
>acknowledge and publicly disagree with
>their position as I pick
>my own beliefs and don't
>follow somebody else by being
>told what to think.
>
>My beliefs about other groups (SFW)
>are based on foundational and
>organizational positions that I've supported
>countless times. I'll respect your
>opinion if it's based on
>facts, so I'd ask you
>to do the same courtesy
>to MM readers that I've
>offered with my posts.
>
>Let's hear it.
>
>PS. BHA was formed a decade
>after the wolf reintroduction, so
>the argument that they helped
>it pass or supported it
>is out the window. People
>should really stop reading the
>ALC for their misinformation.
>
>Grizzly
>
>-----------------------------------------
>"This is a classic case of
>a handful of greedy fly
>fishermen getting too greedy." -Don
>Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>told to KUTV
>
>"It's time to revisit the widely
>accepted principle in the United
>States and Canada that game
>is a public resource."
>-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>quoted in Anchorage Daily News
>


Deep down!

They want the Re-Introductions of the Grizzly Bears & Wolves!

But it Damn Sure Ain't For Hunters to Hunt & Kill any of Them!

What I Stated has nothing to do with U-TARDS!

But We do have some More Liberal States to the North of us Leaning hard to the GREENIE Side!

There's Places for Wolves & Grizzly's!

But Don't Plant them where You Please & Then Have some PANTY-WAIST Judge Say You Ain't gonna Hunt/Manage them!















I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
I'm an equal opportunity critic. I've criticized BHA, NRA, and SFW. Some more than others. I supported Patagonia until somebody (maybe you?) enlightened me on their bison position. I've never defended them since. SFW needs to go away. NRA needs to get out of oil interests, and BHA needs to improve financial transparency to be like TRCP, whom I supported as an alternative to BHA early in this thread. As I've shown, I'm beholden to no organization. Just the public lands that I love.

Grizz this is part of your post 73 and now you admitted you are the chairman of BHA so why do not make that clear in the first place. I have asked you in another thread this same question and you never responded to it.
You do not see leadership of SFW on this site attacking BHA.
In post 104 you post about you have never saw someone being so obsessed with Yvon but everyone of your posts have included a comment from Don Pay.

You defend BHA from association from a guy from Colorado Mr Peterson saying it was something he did back in the 90s but have you seem what he was saying in the recent article in the Denver newspaper attacking hunters for the lost of elk calfs in south west Colorado and he started the first BHA chapter in Colorado.
Stop complaining about association for BHA the group has alot of ties to anti hunting organizations and individuals.
 
?We are saying we will gladly take Yvons money and clout to fight off land grabbers. Well take black diamonds, sierra club, you name it, we will take it.? -hossblur 11/28/18

I did not read all the rest of the posts here, because this right here is all I need to see and need to know. This might be the single most honest, and frightening, statement hoss has made on this forum about this topic in...well, ever.

And this statement illustrates my whole uneasiness with BHA overall. As I've stated before, I support their current publicly stated mission. What scares me about some of their associations, and this comment quoted above in general, is we live in a world where he who holds the purse controls the message and the decisions. Period. There is no honest or reasonable way to argue against that. I'll be entertained when some will try, or will turn around and ask me about BHA and grizzlies that I've never talked about, but the statement is true. He who holds the purse calls the shots. It's the same way average joe hunters got sold out by SFW.

I do not align with Patagonia, Sierra Club, or Black Diamond on hunting issues. I don't want them speaking for me on them. When you're willingly taking their money, that could happen very easily. Good luck, I hope you can keep them at bay.
 
Got a link?


WOW.

Just WOW.

Lets summarize. OP reads a PR piece by one of Berman Green Decoy groups set specifically to target a small handful of highly successful land grab opponents. He is challenged, and quite quickly is able to see what that's all about.

Follwed by DW baiting me(it works every time)

Then the usual chorus of dudes chime in. Each yapping about the "big government", or libs, or wolves.


The vast majority, if not all will drag their sorry azzes to SLC to support the SINGLE BIGGEST recipient of gov welfare in regards to hunting. A group the now OPENLY supports who they want for next governor, Jason Chaffetz.

They further support the red headed step child BGF because "they gonna stop them wolves".

Here is a tip. Take the Coyote Bounty test, THE STATE OPENLY ADMITS THERE ARE WOLVES HERE.

BUT., the real concern is some hippy clothes maker who went in the middle of a huge group of hunters, and stood up and said that hippies and hunters can work together.

YOU SHORT SIGHTED, SHORT TERM MEMORY CLOWNS REMEMBER WHY WE NEEDED TO WORK TOGETHER?


JASON CHAFFETZ. Hb621, which by the way was his 5th attempt.


Maybe, perhaps, if $fw would quit supporting selling off your public lands, the rest of us wouldn't need that evil hippy to help fight it back.

But roll on into SLC, give $fw your $3.75 to backdoor your hunting(70% of you hunt public).




From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
>The Bundy's are the leading voice
>in ranching today. They were
>front page of FoxNews just
>today for calling Trump a
>fear-mongerer over immigration. They travel
>the west speaking to the
>ranching community about their anti-public
>land beliefs. If somebody wants
>to claim ranching as pro-hunting
>credentials, the Bundy's are a
>fair part of the discussion
>in today's world.
>
>DesertRanch may be an awesome dude
>and a great friend of
>hunters. I don't know. Which
>is why I asked if
>he ascribed to the Bundy's
>ludicrous and self-serving beliefs. He
>can say in one post
>that he does not agree
>with Bundy's. It's up to
>him. I truly hope he's
>not that type of rancher.
>
>
>I don't know of Patagonia ever
>shutting down a highway in
>an armed standoff or seizing
>a public building with firearms;
>so to hear somebody calling
>someone else a terrorist and
>following it with a self-description
>as a rancher... that's a
>fair question.
>
>What is the basis for his
>eco-terrorist claims about Patagonia?
>
>As I said, I don't even
>defend Patagonia... but slanderous accusations
>like that should be challenged.
>Heck, I'm not even completely
>sold on BHA but to
>hear the same old SFW
>fan boys repeat baseless accusations
>over and over again will
>be met head-on. Prove your
>point. Vanilla provided evidence of
>Patagonia's position on bison a
>decade ago and I conceded
>he had a valid point
>and agreed with him. So
>far nobody can back their
>claims regarding BHA, but they
>continue to increase in ferocity
>despite the lack of evidence.
>
>
>I've provided scores of posts with
>quotes, numbers, reports, audits, etc...
>as to why I don't
>like SFW. You'd think somebody
>could have a substantive foundation
>to back their position as
>well.
>
>Grizzly
>
>-----------------------------------------
>"This is a classic case of
>a handful of greedy fly
>fishermen getting too greedy." -Don
>Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>told to KUTV
>
>"It's time to revisit the widely
>accepted principle in the United
>States and Canada that game
>is a public resource."
>-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>quoted in Anchorage Daily News
>

I really should refuse to justify my vocation choice as a rancher to some internet hero. But here I g.... I do not support the Bundys!!! And for you to spout off that they are the leading voice in ranching today is simply asinine and shows your complete lack of education. As a member of county and state cattlemen's associations, I get the opportunity to associate with hundreds of ranching families in Utah and beyond. The vast majority do not support Bundy. But how would you know that? Too busy drinking the Kool-Aid of the anti-ranching crowd I reckon. Patagonia has a complete wing of activists, including a website, dedicated to attacking ANYONE who has a legal right to graze public land. That is a direct, frontal attack on ranchers and their families in Utah. Now, since you have to have credentials to prove that I am pro-hunting here ya go...
#1- Have hunted my entire life. Multiple species, multiple western states. My wife and kids do the same when we can.
#2- Have joined or supported a bunch of conservation groups to support wildlife and wild places.(not SFW, for what its worth)
#3- Have served on the Sage Grouse board in an attempt to work with others for the greater good of sage grouse. Including some groups who completely oppose public land grazing.
#4- Have installed several hundred miles of water lines and troughs that directly benefit wildlife, wild horses and non-game animals. Paid for by ME and installed by ME on public land!
#5- Have provided winter feed for thousands of deer and elk over my lifetime at my expense. Have left shelter belts to benefits pheasants on field edges. Have installed nesting boxes for water fowl. And a hundred other small projects that directly benefit wildlife. These are projects on our ranch without a single dime from the feds, state or conservation groups.
#6- Currently participating in an artificial beaver dam project to improve fish habitat along a lonely little desert creek that runs across leased property I graze in conjunction with the DWR and USU.

Grizzly I am one of the best friends wildlife has! And I say that not by being cocky, but simply because its true. I watch the federal government mis-manage wildfires, horses, recreation, mine reclamations, grazing, logging and basically almost every part of the public lands they manage. Even the hugely popular National Park system is severely in debt! Those places oughta be printing money as popular as they are! My family has worked on and WITH the land for generations. We are the original environmentalists! And we are attacked and sued and destroyed by groups like Patagonia, and Western Watersheds and the Sierra Club constantly. Hell yes I will fight! Hell yes I will stand up for myself and my family! Hell yes I will call out you for only telling your slanted version of the story. I am fully aware that my words will have zero affect on you and many others here. You are to deeply invested in your "Movement" to save the west! But when you run all us evil, despicable ranchers out of business, don't spend too much time patting yourselves on the back. Because those groups you have aligned yourself with will be coming after hunting next!

Happy Trails and much success to all of you, including Grizzly, in your hunting adventures. Its time I slip back into the shadows on MM, because I come here to see beautiful bucks and bears and bulls, not debate folks who wont listen. If you want to spend part of a day riding around the desert looking at projects on public and private land that directly benefit wildlife, the offer is open. Send a PM and will try and make schedules work. Regards
 
>>>I'm having trouble washing the blood
>>>out of my patagonia snap
>>>t. Any suggestions?
>>
>>Yeah, use it as toilet paper!
>>Patagonia is an eco-terror group,
>>plain and simple. As a
>>proud 5th generation rancher I
>>could never support a group
>>who has an activist wing
>>dedicated to ending ranching. And
>>it sickens me to see
>>how some of you folks
>>who claim to be sportsmen
>>get in bed with groups
>>who hate agriculture and family
>>ranches. I will wager I
>>have done more for wildlife
>>in my 50 years as
>>a rancher than some groups
>>do in a lifetime. That
>>isn't bravado, its simply a
>>fact.
>
>
>Are you one of the whiney
>100 or so 5th generation
>ranchers that walts into that
>central wildlife board meeting a
>couple years back demanding all
>the elk on Monroe be
>killed off?

Nope. Next question
 
>LAST EDITED ON Nov-28-18
>AT 09:18?PM (MST)
>
>I keep reading about the "anti
>hunter" BHA.
>
>But I keep tripping on this.
>
>
>
>>>"It's time to revisit the widely
>>>accepted principle in the United
>>>States and Canada that game
>>>is a public resource."
>>>-Don Peay, Founder of SFW
>
>Funny how the first is fairytale,
>the second is on public
>record.
>
>
>You would think Desert would be
>pissed at folks like the
>Bundys who don't pay their
>grazing fees then try to
>hide their mooching as gov
>overreach.
>
>
>Hey Muley, speaking of "big gov",
>how many welfare tags are
>your buddy's over at $FW
>getting this year? BHA
>is getting ZERO.
>
>Desert. When the Lee, Bishops
>of the world get land
>transferred to BP or the
>Wilks, your grazing allotments are
>gone. And with hay
>near 200 a ton, so
>is ranching.
>
>
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.

Hey chicken little, I don't support the Bundys so stop that fairy story! We have faced government ineptitude for over a century so I bet we manage to pull through this too. You get back to your job at the Taco Bell and leave grown up work for those of us who actually produce something besides BS! God this is tiring!
 
>
>
>Nope. Next question


Why do you $FW apologist always attack everyone and everything that supports public lands?
 
>>
>>
>>Nope. Next question
>
>
>Why do you $FW apologist always
>attack everyone and everything that
>supports public lands?


Hey Asshat, I do not support SFW. Or the Bundys. Using your logic, I guess you are a flaming vegan who smokes crack since you disagree with me about how public lands ought to be managed? Try thinking more and typing less.
 
>>>
>>>
>>>Nope. Next question
>>
>>
>>Why do you $FW apologist always
>>attack everyone and everything that
>>supports public lands?
>
>
>Hey Asshat, I do not support
>SFW. Or the Bundys. Using
>your logic, I guess you
>are a flaming vegan who
>smokes crack since you disagree
>with me about how public
>lands ought to be managed?
>Try thinking more and typing
>less.


No need to get all butthurt. You said next question so I asked one. Here?s another one.

Do you believe if Utah takes over all its public lands you'll be able to graze more cows in more places for less money?
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-18 AT 09:33AM (MST)[p]
>Grizz this is part of your
>post 73 and now you
>admitted you are the chairman
>of BHA so why do
>not make that clear in
>the first place. I have
>asked you in another thread
>this same question and you
>never responded to it.
>You do not see leadership of
>SFW on this site attacking
>BHA.
>In post 104 you post about
>you have never saw someone
>being so obsessed with Yvon
>but everyone of your posts
>have included a comment from
>Don Pay.
>
>You defend BHA from association from
>a guy from Colorado Mr
>Peterson saying it was something
>he did back in the
>90s but have you seem
>what he was saying in
>the recent article in the
>Denver newspaper attacking hunters for
>the lost of elk calfs
>in south west Colorado and
>he started the first BHA
>chapter in Colorado.
>Stop complaining about association for BHA
>the group has alot of
>ties to anti hunting organizations
>and individuals.

I'm not chairman as you state. I'm on the board as I've clearly posted in the past. I also use my real name here and it's on the BHA website. It can't be any clearer than that unless I put it in my signature which I won't do because these positions are my personal positions and not me speaking on behalf of a group.

If DW wants to find an actual quote from Yvon apropos to hunting and public land, he can go for it. His constant "guilt-by-association" claim is weak but he probably knows that by now. Being that Patagonia has virtually no impact on hunting in Utah, I wouldn't get the point, but whatever.

SFW, however, is easily the most powerful hunting group in Utah and has a leader that says things that are as ridiculous as those and they deserve to be repeated. This isn't some distant link to a third-party company, it's the leader of the group that controls hunting policy in Utah and sits on the National Hunting & Shooting Sports Conservation Council.

It's also equally important to note that he used to post here often and many of his membership still frequents. I know this because they've PM'd me, emailed me, and called me.

If I had a nickel for every hunter that's reached out to me to thank me for spreading the good word, I'd buy myself a nice tag somewhere.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
>I do not align with Patagonia,
>Sierra Club, or Black Diamond
>on hunting issues. I don't
>want them speaking for me
>on them. When you're willingly
>taking their money, that could
>happen very easily. Good luck,
>I hope you can keep
>them at bay.

The only time you allow others to speak for you, is when you don't speak for yourself.

If half the people on this thread, spent an equivalent amount of time addressing the power brokers on all these issues, a lot more would be solved in favor of public lands, wildlife, hunting, fishing, LWCF, etc. etc. etc.

Seeking validation or arguing about this company or that group, to a bunch of blowhards on a hunting board...while entertaining, isn't even close to as effective as writing letters, attending meetings, meeting with GF commissioners, elected officials, etc. etc.

Pardon me, while I get back to engaging on the issues and influencing the decisions makers.
 
I need to apologize to Grizz. In post 103 He clearly states he is the Director not chairman.
I am sorry my bad.
Grizz thanks for answering I am not a SFW supporter I do think the people (many on this site) of SFW do great things for Utah wildlife and I do support the Expoand the idea of auction tags. Is there misuse of the auction tags yes was the new contract for the Expo handled wrong yes and probably someone in the DWR should answer for it so I thank Grizz and others keeping pressure on the DWR but I am sorry I see no good from BHA too many agendas involved there that goes against everything I stand for and like for my trust.
 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Nope. Next question
>>>
>>>
>>>Why do you $FW apologist always
>>>attack everyone and everything that
>>>supports public lands?
>>
>>
>>Hey Asshat, I do not support
>>SFW. Or the Bundys. Using
>>your logic, I guess you
>>are a flaming vegan who
>>smokes crack since you disagree
>>with me about how public
>>lands ought to be managed?
>>Try thinking more and typing
>>less.
>
>
>No need to get all butthurt.
>You said next question so
>I asked one. Here?s another
>one.
>
>Do you believe if Utah takes
>over all its public lands
>you'll be able to graze
>more cows in more places
>for less money?

Where I have I stated I want state take over of public lands??? Do I think we need a larger voice- SURE! But quit implying I am for something you have no idea about! I OWN grazing rights to certain areas of public land. I only want to continue using the rights I already own! Why would anyone think I could graze more cattle for less money? You in over your head lil fella! Maybe go back to the kiddie pool til you have some facts. Until you learn a few things kindly stop attacking ranchers when your facts aren't close to straight. Thank you and good day
 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Nope. Next question
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Why do you $FW apologist always
>>>>attack everyone and everything that
>>>>supports public lands?
>>>
>>>
>>>Hey Asshat, I do not support
>>>SFW. Or the Bundys. Using
>>>your logic, I guess you
>>>are a flaming vegan who
>>>smokes crack since you disagree
>>>with me about how public
>>>lands ought to be managed?
>>>Try thinking more and typing
>>>less.
>>
>>
>>No need to get all butthurt.
>>You said next question so
>>I asked one. Here?s another
>>one.
>>
>>Do you believe if Utah takes
>>over all its public lands
>>you'll be able to graze
>>more cows in more places
>>for less money?
>
>Where I have I stated I
>want state take over of
>public lands??? Do I think
>we need a larger voice-
>SURE! But quit implying I
>am for something you have
>no idea about! I OWN
>grazing rights to certain areas
>of public land. I only
>want to continue using the
>rights I already own! Why
>would anyone think I could
>graze more cattle for less
>money? You in over your
>head lil fella! Maybe go
>back to the kiddie pool
>til you have some facts.
>Until you learn a few
>things kindly stop attacking ranchers
>when your facts aren't close
>to straight. Thank you and
>good day

You'd think if that is true, and I'm sure it is, you'd be fighting tooth and nail to keep that. I don't like Patagonia, actually, that's not true. I find their business culture pretty interesting, but their politics on most things I don't like. But Yvon personally wants to fight back on public lands.

You all pretend like its some mystical theory, or its a couple crackpots. The companies pushing transfer are amongst the most wealthy in the world. They elect presidents, buy politicians. Hunters are a tiny speck by comparison. So, you take the help when its offered. BHA seems to be that conduit.

Fighting with Patagonia because some of their folks oppose grazing, while turning blindly to folks who 100% don't support it is short sighted.

Our grandparents fought a war aligned with folks they had 99% disagreement with.

None of us speak Russian.

The enemy of your enemy may not be your friend, but common goals.


From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-18 AT 10:30AM (MST)[p]>I need to apologize to Grizz.
>In post 103 He clearly
>states he is the Director
>not chairman.
>I am sorry my bad.
>Grizz thanks for answering I am
>not a SFW supporter I
>do think the people (many
>on this site) of SFW
>do great things for Utah
>wildlife and I do support
>the Expoand the idea of
>auction tags. Is there misuse
>of the auction tags yes
>was the new contract for
>the Expo handled wrong yes
>and probably someone in the
>DWR should answer for it
>so I thank Grizz and
>others keeping pressure on the
>DWR but I am sorry
>I see no good from
>BHA too many agendas involved
>there that goes against everything
>I stand for and like
>for my trust.

Thanks for a fair reply. I respect your position.

One point of emphasis, I didn't say I was the director, I said I was "a" director. There are about 10 people on the Board of Directors. I'm one of many. BHA Utah sent out an email yesterday looking for more Directors. If anybody is interested, contact Perry as he's the Chapter Secretary.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
In the interest of full disclosure and my last word on the matter, in a form of confession to grizz and hoss. The concept of BHA is spot on! I've been saying the very same thing since I was in college in the late 80's, the same thing Yvon has said, if we could just come together as one, we could move mountains! Or in this case keep them exactly where they are, in the state and condition they're in, wild, free and forever open for all to enjoy. But everytime I'm ready to throw my hat in the BHA ring I hear someone they've hitched their wagon to making a statement undercutting us as hunters. Its Yvon on the Grizzlies, or Peterson eliminating bear hunts in Colorado or bashing elk hunters in southern Colorado or speaking out against the grizzly hunt himself. Imagine their outrage if a BHA representative went outside of his duties and responsibilities to BHA and advocated limiting hikers and cyclists in the backcountry. Their f'n heads would explode! They wouldn't stand for it and they would cut all ties with BHA immediately! Why BHA simply dismisses it when they go out and openly advocate against hunting is a mystery to me. Sorry I bait ya everytime hoss, but I cant help it. I suspect it gets to you cause part of you cant argue with some of the things I say. The people BHA has aligned with repeatedly prove they'd cut our throats the first chance they'd get. We'd work together to get exactly what we both want and at the last second they'd lock the gait behind em with you and I standin on the outside lookin in starein at a big NO HUNTING sign as we gaze at the country we can no longer enjoy the way we all have and do. In that respect maybe BHA and SFW aren't much different. If your argument is ya but if its private you'll never get in, my counter is ya but if I cant hunt, fish and ride my horse on it it may as well be private! If its private at least I'd have a shot at befriending the owner and enjoy the ground the way I like to! I know you , I, grizz and everybody on this site basically want the same thing, for that ground to remain open and free for us to enjoy. I just cant throw in with BHA when the people they align with go out and try to cut our legs out as hunters on a regular basis. It's been said a thousand times on here, if we were on a ten day elk hunt together we'd have a helluva time! But I can't deny and ignore what my eyes see and my ears hear when it comes to BHA. Or SFW for that matter.

#livelikezac
 
Imagine their outrage if a BHA representative went outside of his duties and responsibilities to BHA and advocated limiting hikers and cyclists in the backcountry. Their f'n heads would explode!

Huh, since you brought this up...

BHA believes that wilderness designations work well as currently stipulated in the Wilderness Act. We are committed to defending traditional use within wilderness areas. We therefore oppose efforts to rewrite the Wilderness Act to allow mountain bike and mechanized use in wilderness areas. We also ask that you join a diverse and growing segment of public lands users, including hunters and anglers, who oppose S.B. 3205.

Thank you for your support of American sportsmen and our nation?s public lands and waters.

Sincerely,

Land Tawney
President and CEO, Backcountry Hunters & Anglers


https://www.backcountryhunters.org/bha_letter_to_congress_on_mountain_bikes_in_wilderness_areas

I didn't hear of any exploding heads.
 
> Imagine their outrage if a
>BHA representative went outside of
>his duties and responsibilities to
>BHA and advocated limiting hikers
>and cyclists in the backcountry.
>Their f'n heads would explode!
>
>
>Huh, since you brought this up...
>
>
>BHA believes that wilderness designations work
>well as currently stipulated in
>the Wilderness Act. We are
>committed to defending traditional use
>within wilderness areas. We therefore
>oppose efforts to rewrite the
>Wilderness Act to allow mountain
>bike and mechanized use in
>wilderness areas. We also ask
>that you join a diverse
>and growing segment of public
>lands users, including hunters and
>anglers, who oppose S.B. 3205.
>
>
>Thank you for your support of
>American sportsmen and our nation?s
>public lands and waters.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Land Tawney
>President and CEO, Backcountry Hunters &
>Anglers
>
>
>https://www.backcountryhunters.org/bha_letter_to_congress_on_mountain_bikes_in_wilderness_areas
>
>I didn't hear of any exploding
>heads.

Lol! You've not attempted to take anything away from them. Try limiting their hiking in the wilderness or cycling in the national forest. Apples to oranges buzz.


#livelikezac
 
I'll give you my take when you provide a public statement that BHA "supported Wyoming's grizzly hunt getting cancelled.".

You don't get any more "takes" until you answer that.
 
>>
>
>Where I have I stated I
>want state take over of
>public lands??? Do I think
>we need a larger voice-
>SURE! But quit implying I
>am for something you have
>no idea about! I OWN
>grazing rights to certain areas
>of public land. I only
>want to continue using the
>rights I already own! Why
>would anyone think I could
>graze more cattle for less
>money? You in over your
>head lil fella! Maybe go
>back to the kiddie pool
>til you have some facts.
>Until you learn a few
>things kindly stop attacking ranchers
>when your facts aren't close
>to straight. Thank you and
>good day


Whatever. Sorry I hurt your feelings.
 
>Always a "yeah, but" with you...funny
>stuff.

You posting an example of BHA advocating for the status quo as an example of them advocating against them is funny stuff!


#livelikezac
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-18 AT 12:56PM (MST)[p]Buzz here is what I said and you said you could prove me wrong. Where is National BHA's quote or press release supporting the grizzly hunt, you still haven't provided it. Yet you have founding chapter members that helped in getting rid of our spring bear hunt, have opposed grizzly hunting, and now have an article in the Durango Herald blaming hunting for low elk numbers. Buzz's b.s. smoke and mirrors reply coming in 3...2...1..

My quote previously posted
"I'll restate they wouldn't make a statement and they also didn't distance themselves when Yvon and his Patagonia cronies were helping with the shutdown"
 
Hoss,
You say short sighted? Yet you guys are not looking around the room and seeing who you're aligning with. Ranchers and hunters have had many disputes over the years without question. And some rather heated ones that still burn bright. Helll my brother is lucky to have not been run out of Wayne County by a lynch mob at this point. But I have never ever considered ranchers an enemy of my hunting lifestyle. That can not be said about the groups you and grizz are defending and championing. You both want to keep dragging SFW into the conversation. Yet there is no arguing that SFW is a completely pro hunting organization. You may not like their tactics or type of hunting they promote but there is no question that they support hunting 100%. BHA is aligning with groups that without questions do not support hunting and have spent years and millions of dollars fighting to end hunting.

You call people clowns, yet in all honesty its guys like you and grizz that are not worth arguing with. You're so hung up on your single vision and hate that you become the pawns of groups that will eventually take away that things that all of us love. When that happens you tell me who's going to be standing there with big red noses and floppy shoes.
 
>I'll give you my take when
>you provide a public statement
>that BHA "supported Wyoming's grizzly
>hunt getting cancelled.".
>
>You don't get any more "takes"
>until you answer that.


Somebody a while back did Post saying that BHA "supported Wyoming's grizzly hunt getting cancelled.".

We Need the Truth here!

Did They?

Or Did they Not?

We Don't need the 1/2 Assed Truth!

We want the whole F'N Truth Please!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
There isn't an ocean big enough to house all the red herrings in this thread. It's an entertaining one though!
 
ORIONTHEHUNTER,

Here is what you said, ">Nobody mentioned either that they supported Wyoming's grizzly hunt getting cancelled."

You've been asked several times for proof, and have provided nothing of the sort.

Carry on...and for what its worth, you've exceeded your daily limit of red herring.
 
I guess providing a founding chapter member that has gotten hunts taken away and is against the grizzly hunt isn't enough?? Still waiting on that press release from national supporting the hunt.
 
>There isn't an ocean big enough
>to house all the red
>herrings in this thread. It's
>an entertaining one though!

Great minds think alike...you beat me to the punch...line (pun there).
 
DW, I don't take offense, in fact it makes me laugh when I see you post a bait to suck me in. My predictability is predictable. You and I share the same thoughts on BHA except one, Patagonia doesn't need us, they get nothing from us. We are wanting to take from them.


Muley. Your right. $fw doesn't support my type of hunting. Ill give you that.

So here are the real world options.

#1 you give Chaffetz, Lee, Bishop, Berman what they want, and 100% lose your heritage. Kaibab, Pauns, Heneries, Region G and H, GONE.

#2 We fight that off by any means, then possibly fight each other. Remembering the mechanized folks might not live the non. Boarders might dislike skiers, etc, etc.

I don't see choice #3.

In a perfect world we look forward to draws, fishvall summer, hunt this fall, and not worry about it. That ain't an option any longer. There is no grey area. Not because BHA is wishing to make the entire west public, but because folks like Chaffetz are wanting to make it private.

The way of life Desert so badly wants to preserve while frowned on by Patagonia, IS doomed by BP or the Wilks. Patagonia has little political power. The ALC has an entire state congress(McAdams?), and limitless finances.

Go Google how the Wilks feel about Grizzly hunting, or Bison hunting. Check out Exxon's thoughts on the point systems in the west.

Better yet, Google Mike Lee's speach this summer, them wander back and tell us who the ACTUAL threat is.

Beat Patagonia, what do you have? Nothing.

Beat ALC, you got about 600 million acres.

Choice is pretty clear.


From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
Hoss do you really think BP and the Wilkes want Utah land that bad. Yes the oil company's and natural gas company's will want control of oil and gas inriched land but really do they have a problem now to get into ares of the state that they want too drill.
I do not really know how much land in Utah is oil viable maybe 10 to 15 percent and I think they are already drilling on most of that land. You got too remember Utah oil is hard to find and even harder to drill which means expensive.
These big company's do not want to Owen it why would they pay high price for acreage when they can by leases for pennies.
Yes if it was offered.
I am sure their would be rich guys that would purchase some of the most pristine acreage for there private ranch/hunting reserve I am worried about that. But oil companies can get the oil cheap without privatization of public land.
Example the Bears Ears do you really think that decision was about giving the average citizen of Utah back there land.
When a oil company was renting the lease right from a good friend of mine that owns substantial amount of acreage they flat out told him that if oil was found on his property and on the Federal property around his acreage they would drill on the Fed property and then make him except the amount of dollars they are paying the Feds. They said it is easier to deal with the Feds than private.
You can point out that I am wrong but that is what little I know.
 
Can somebody Answer My Question:

And I'm asking for All States supporting BHA!

Somebody a while back did Post saying that BHA "supported Wyoming's grizzly hunt getting cancelled.".

We Need the Truth here!

Did They?

Or Did they Not?

We Don't need the 1/2 Assed Truth!

We want the whole F'N Truth Please!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-18 AT 07:16PM (MST)[p]>Can somebody Answer My Question:
>
>And I'm asking for All States
>supporting BHA!
>
>Somebody a while back did Post
>saying that BHA "supported Wyoming's
>grizzly hunt getting cancelled.".
>
>We Need the Truth here!
>
>Did They?
>
>Or Did they Not?

It was ORIONTHEHUNTER that stated that. Your answer... BHA never said those words or anything like them. Nobody has posted a single link or piece of evidence from BHA backing that up... though they continue to repeat the falsehood.

I'm not speaking to or defending the words of a single man 26 years ago. I'm not speaking to or defending the words of Center for Biological Diversity and their billboards. I'm not speaking to or defending the words of a California-based clothing company whose CEO spoke at a Convention in support of public lands (though grizzlies were never mentioned in his speech, IIRC).

Bottom line... BHA NEVER OPPOSED THE GRIZZLY HUNT!!!

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-18 AT 07:26PM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-18
>AT 07:16?PM (MST)
>
>>Can somebody Answer My Question:
>>
>>And I'm asking for All States
>>supporting BHA!
>>
>>Somebody a while back did Post
>>saying that BHA "supported Wyoming's
>>grizzly hunt getting cancelled.".
>>
>>We Need the Truth here!
>>
>>Did They?
>>
>>Or Did they Not?
>
>It was ORIONTHEHUNTER that stated that.
>Your answer... BHA never said
>those words or anything like
>them. Nobody has posted a
>single link or piece of
>evidence from BHA backing that
>up... though they continue to
>repeat the falsehood.
>
>I'm not speaking to or defending
>the words of a single
>man 26 years ago. I'm
>not speaking to or defending
>the words of Center for
>Biological Diversity and their billboards.
>I'm not speaking to or
>defending the words of a
>California-based clothing company whose CEO
>spoke at a Convention in
>support of public lands (though
>grizzlies were never mentioned in
>his speech, IIRC).
>
>Bottom line... BHA NEVER OPPOSED THE
>GRIZZLY HUNT!!!
>
>Grizzly
>
>-----------------------------------------
>"This is a classic case of
>a handful of greedy fly
>fishermen getting too greedy." -Don
>Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>told to KUTV
>
>"It's time to revisit the widely
>accepted principle in the United
>States and Canada that game
>is a public resource."
>-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>quoted in Anchorage Daily News
>

OK, then did they publicly support it? I only ask because some have been overly critical on other organizations stances... ie stream access and states taking over federal land, and those organizations not making public statements not supporting or for supporting the aforementioned topics...
 
So?

Does BHA in all States Support Wolf & Grizzly Introduction and Support Hunters that want to Hunt & Manage them?









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Can somebody Please Answer My Question?

grizz?

Anybody?







I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
BHA won't make a statement one way or the other. They got too many green members that support wolf introduction and no grizzly hunting.
 
>BHA won't make a statement one
>way or the other.
>They got too many green
>members that support wolf introduction
>and no grizzly hunting.


Hey Muley!

I'm giving them the chance to Answer My Question!

I'm just looking for the Truth!

Nothing Less!

Nothing More!

Is Somebody gonna Answer?








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Bess,
I can tell you first hand how the members on more frequented social media sites answer. Grizz don't like to talk about that but i can tell you Grizz and Hoss are not your average BHA members. They are both way way way more conservative than members i have gone back and forth with on Instagram.
 
OK!

I Can see I'm not gonna get an Answer!

I was Asking to Learn!

Rather it be Good!

Or Bad!

But F'It!

I'm Out!

I'm Done!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Notdon,

Public land encompasses more than Utah.

But since you asked. In Utah:

I think the church would swallow up massive swaths.

Oil would grab a bunch, including frackers like the Wilks

The ski resorts would expand a ton

Any foothills would be snagged by developers

I'm sure foreign purchases would be substantial

Henries, gone. Pains, gone.

Uintas, gone

Anything north of Provo, gone.

I'm sure some west desert would remsin.

So there. Tgsts my honest answer.

The oil companies financing it only care about the oil, whatever happens as a result, they care less.


So my question to you, how is any of that good for wildlife? How is it good for hunting? How is it good for your way of life?




From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
Bessy, if you haven't been paying attention, getting answers in this thread is not common.

Seems like it would be a simple answer to give. Good luck!
 
>
>So?
>
>Does BHA in all States Support
>Wolf & Grizzly Introduction and
>Support Hunters that want to
>Hunt & Manage them?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I know so many people in
>so many places
>They make allot of money but
>they got sad faces
>
>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D

Here's what I know. Randy Newberg is a member with considerable clout. He was one of the first to video a wolf hunt and kill.

I have not seen anything where Land Tawney has been anti Grizz hunting or anti wolf hunting.


Reintoduction happened long before BHA. You can read their statements about North American game management, wolves are game animals in some states, seems to answer that.






From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-18 AT 06:17AM (MST)[p]Hoss, that is not an answer at all. You pointed to one single member as your proof. Think I can find one single BHA member who opposes wolf hunting, and hunting in general, to counter that?

Also, saying they support the management of game animals is not a statement they believe wolves should be game animals. Not even close.

This isn't my question, and I don't even care about the answer to be totally honest. But that reply is ridiculous. Par for the course on this topic, unfortunately, but ridiculous nonetheless.

If the answer is ?I don't know,? then why not just say it? What are you so afraid of?
 
>LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-18
>AT 06:17?AM (MST)
>
>Hoss, that is not an answer
>at all. You pointed to
>one single member as your
>proof. Think I can find
>one single BHA member who
>opposes wolf hunting, and hunting
>in general, to counter that?
>
>
>Also, saying they support the management
>of game animals is not
>a statement they believe wolves
>should be game animals. Not
>even close.
>
>This isn't my question, and I
>don't even care about the
>answer to be totally honest.
>But that reply is ridiculous.
>Par for the course on
>this topic, unfortunately, but ridiculous
>nonetheless.
>
>If the answer is ?I don't
>know,? then why not just
>say it? What are you
>so afraid of?


I'm not sure how many times we can answer the same way.

100+ posts and the best anyone has is a director in Colorado doesn't like baited bear hunting?

I KNOW BHA isn't actively pushing wolves into Utah. They weren't around in the begining.

I know I have heard, seen, read, ZERO about BHA fighting against Grizzly hunting. Not some member giving an opinion, THE ORGANIZATION not fighting against it.


Whenever I hit $fw I usually start with a disclaimer. "I know there are boots on the ground doing good things but the leadership...."

What the guys on this one are doing is "I know there is No proof of the leadership doing any of this, but a few boots on the ground...."


Vanilla, how many times did you beat your wife last night?


That's the kinda of question you all are asking.

Vanilla now I will ask you a couple.

Why did the petro companies hire Berman to go after BHA and TRPC(and a couple others)?


Randy Newberg, Cory Jacobsen, Steve Rinella, Kimber, Leupold, First Lite, Sitka.

Are all these also green decoys?




From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-18 AT 07:14AM (MST)[p]
I beat my wife zero times last night.

See how easy it is to answer?

Now to your other questions, since you're still not answering elkassassin?s:

?Why did the petro companies hire Berman to go after BHA and TRPC(and a couple others)??

I don't know.

(See, not too tough, right?)

?Randy Newberg, Cory Jacobsen, Steve Rinella, Kimber, Leupold, First Lite Sitka.

Are all these green decoys??

No, I don't believe they are. I think they've proven to be advocates for hunting interests. But then again, I've never accused BHA of being a green decoy either. In fact, I'd guess that might be the first time I've ever typed that phrase in my life, actually. So not sure your questions are relevant to me. Just more smoke and mirrors from you on a topic you're passionate about, but clearly not quite ready to have the difficult discussions yet. Redirect and move to something else, that's what you do. No different from those SFW lovers you do openly despise when they get asked the tough questions. Redirect and attack. Smoke and mirrors. Red herrings galore. Use whatever analogy you want, you fit em all!

But I'd wager elkassassin will ask his question again. Will you answer? I bet not.
 
Last, lets cut to the chase.

You want to keep 600 million acres hunters ain't big enough. Your either reaching out to groups you might not agree 100% with, or you're getting rolled.

Petro companies are united on it. The Utah political power structure us united.

So are you going to sacrifice land so you can feel intellectually pure, or are you going to WIN?

We flew past purety and theory when Utah hired lawyers. Now you win or take up golf. And gawd knows all golfers agree 100% so some of you will be happy?




From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
Yep, I was right. You aren't going to answer his question.

Redirect, distract, attack. Do you, Hoss. Do you.
 
If a grizzly bear hunt in the lower 48 isn't the quintessential "backcountry hunt" I dont know what is. If I was in charge of an organization that called themselves Backcountry Hunters I would have brought the full force of the organization to bear and push for this hunt. BHA members here have told us what BHA did, they made a statement. Some of their donors, and a few of their members, made an all out assault against the hunt. End of story.



#livelikezac
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-18 AT 08:44AM (MST)[p]>Yep, I was right. You aren't
>going to answer his question.
>
>
>Redirect, distract, attack. Do you, Hoss.
>Do you.

You're always right.

Enjoy that 100% lockstep purety.


The old dudes in the balcony in the Muppet Show were always right too.

From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
>If a grizzly bear hunt in
>the lower 48 isn't the
>quintessential "backcountry hunt" I dont
>know what is. If I
>was in charge of an
>organization that called themselves Backcountry
>Hunters I would have brought
>the full force of the
>organization to bear and push
>for this hunt. BHA members
>here have told us what
>BHA did, they made a
>statement. Some of their donors,
>and a few of their
>members, made an all out
>assault against the hunt. End
>of story.
>
>
>
>#livelikezac

The State of Wyoming lost in Federal court.

What did you want any group to do?

Montana didn't offer a hunt. I guess they should have protested Montana fish and game?
I don't know Montana's process.



From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
Hoss,
It is interesting to see you use the same argument to defend the BHA as some of us have used on certain issues with the SFW. When we did that you claimed we were short sighted clowns.

Here is the difference and my overall concern. I am all for public land and it is does concern me greatly if we lose access to that public land as hunters. However I look at a group like SFW and I see a group that is going to be pro hunting to the end. Worst case scenario public lands are sold off and hunting takes place on private property. Well at least my family and I are still able to go hunt. Lets look at the your worst case scenario, it stays all in the hands of the Feds. More Reps and Senators are elected that lean left and even further, for helll sake look at the lunatic NY just elected. She is a self proclaimed "activist" and regularly speaks of filling Washington with more "activists". The groups that BHA is aligning with are full of known activists, from leadership to the base. They have long been known to be anti hunting activists. So they keep it all public land, and one day they vote in enough reps and senators like the one from NY and its an easy push to close hunting. Now there is plenty of land to hike on and take pictures on, but no hunting. Not even if you have to pay to access, its just gone and not an option. These groups were fighting against hunting long before they joined the fight to keep land public. They are fine to have BHA join that fight but to think in the end that they will just stop their original push is foolish and truly short sighted. I don't care if Randy Newberg or Remi Warren or Steve Reinella support BHA and show up to speak, because they also have know anti hunters speaking at their events this year. Chavez may have different views on land ownership but he is not or has at least not been shown to be an anti hunter. And being able to hunt is my end goal in all of this.
 
Going to end this crap...once and for all.

For starters, as anyone can see from the replies and BS that these issues quickly turn into emotion rather than fact. They turn into a pissing match that is unhealthy and does nothing to help whatever position, or point, anyone is trying to make. It most certainly changes nothing about the issue being argued about.

For the last time, BHA, as a national organization has made it very clear where they stand in regard to the NAM and also the public trust doctrine and the States reserving the right to manage ALL game within their borders as they see fit. Further, the National Board expects those state chapters to work with their State Agencies to help manage wildlife using the best available science, via the NAM and Public Trust Doctrine. While I cant, and wont speak for any other board, that is 100% what the Wyoming Chapter is doing, has done, and will continue to do.

In regard to the grizzly bear issue. Once the delisting decision was made, the State of Wyoming put in motion their recommendations via the State Grizzly Bear Management plan. Part of that plan, included the adoption of a limited grizzly bear hunting season.

The Wyoming Chapter made public comments, which are viewable on youtube, at the commission meeting that we were in support of the Grizzly Bear Management plan, which includes the commission adopted Grizzly bear hunt. That is in fact, supporting the BEST available science and following the recommendation by the large carnivore division of the WYGF Department and our commission recommendation.

Further, the Wyoming Sportsmens Alliance, made up of the top Sportmen/womens groups in the State, drafted a letter stating the same thing. The WYSA supported the Wyoming Grizzly Bear Management Plan and commission adopted hunting season. That's part of the public record and WYBHA was a co-signer, along with all the other WYSA groups.

That's as much as we can do, and if any of the WYSA members thought there was MORE we could have done, we would have.

What no group can do, is control the actions of a court or plantiffs, who make the decision to sue the GF Department over our science based plan.

Neither, BHA as a national organization, nor any of the Chapters, can do anything to change the mind of the litigants...neither can anyone else. Those litigants, ( Crow Indian Tribe, Humane Society of the United States, WildEarth Guardians, the Alliance for the Wild Rockies, the Northern Cheyenne Tribe and Chicago attorney Robert Aland.) were not going to be swayed by any science, by any group, any GF commission, or any State Plan...period, end of story.

All any group could do, is to do exactly what we did. Continue to support the NAM, the public trust doctrine, and our States science based wildlife management, including our grizzly bear management plan.

For the record, I didn't see muley73, elkass, vanilla, DW, ORIONTHEHUNTER, or any of the other serial MM whiners attend a single GF Commission meeting, public hearing, open house, legislative meeting, or anything else to do with grizzly bears. The Wyoming Chapter did.

There...now its over.
 
That is the biggest smoke and mirrors answer from you yet Buzz. Really you wanna call me out for not driving to Wyoming for a grizzly meeting. Game and Fish won't even let me hunt in the wilderness you think they care about my thoughts on a grizzly hunt? Hoss that Colorado founding member you briefly mention is still very active in BHA
 
>Hoss,
>It is interesting to see you
>use the same argument to
>defend the BHA as some
>of us have used on
>certain issues with the SFW.
> When we did that
>you claimed we were short
>sighted clowns.
>
>Here is the difference and my
>overall concern. I am
>all for public land and
>it is does concern me
>greatly if we lose access
>to that public land as
>hunters. However I look
>at a group like SFW
>and I see a group
>that is going to be
>pro hunting to the end.
>Worst case scenario public lands
>are sold off and hunting
>takes place on private property.
> Well at least my
>family and I are still
>able to go hunt.
>Lets look at the your
>worst case scenario, it stays
>all in the hands of
>the Feds. More Reps
>and Senators are elected that
>lean left and even further,
>for helll sake look at
>the lunatic NY just elected.
>She is a self proclaimed
>"activist" and regularly speaks of
>filling Washington with more "activists".
> The groups that BHA
>is aligning with are full
>of known activists, from leadership
>to the base. They
>have long been known to
>be anti hunting activists.
>So they keep it all
>public land, and one day
>they vote in enough reps
>and senators like the one
>from NY and its an
>easy push to close hunting.
> Now there is plenty
>of land to hike on
>and take pictures on, but
>no hunting. Not even
>if you have to pay
>to access, its just gone
>and not an option.
>These groups were fighting against
>hunting long before they joined
>the fight to keep land
>public. They are fine to
>have BHA join that fight
>but to think in the
>end that they will just
>stop their original push is
>foolish and truly short sighted.
> I don't care if
>Randy Newberg or Remi Warren
>or Steve Reinella support BHA
>and show up to speak,
>because they also have know
>anti hunters speaking at their
>events this year. Chavez
>may have different views on
>land ownership but he is
>not or has at least
>not been shown to be
>an anti hunter. And
>being able to hunt is
>my end goal in all
>of this.

Cool story bro.

So let me get this straight. By not supporting people and organizations that are pro public land will somehow keep the "activist " out of Washington. Makes sense to me.
 
ORIONTHEHUNTER gets caught spreading absolute falsehoods and then has the audacity to accuse others of "smoke and mirrors".

DW, Vanilla, and Muley73 make so little sense with their repetitive posts filled with unsubstantiated gibberish and unrelated accusations that I'm pretty sure they are teaming up to start a taxidermy shop in Texas.

I guess I should now demand they provide proof that they're NOT starting a taxidermy shop in Texas. It's their duty to prove wrong a baseless claim, right? I have absolutely no proof its true, but I typed it so now they have to prove a negative in an argument. At least with their line of thinking, that's how it is.

The OP admitted he was mislead and corrected himself. Good for him. I'm glad that one less person fell for the land-grabbers Washington DC-paid smear campaign against BHA. It was all worth it.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
>Buzz,
>You?ve been pro wolf all along,
>correct?

Yes, I've been pro wolf hunting/trapping all along...and buy/bought tags in both Wyoming and Montana. Wish I had the time to hunt them more.

I really wish wolves would have been a legal species to trap in Montana when I trapped (and had the time trap) there in the 80's and 90's. I trapped every furbearer in the State of Montana with the exception of wolverine. I got one of the last legal lynx ever taken in Montana...should have tried more/harder for a wolverine.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-18 AT 02:49PM (MST)[p]>That is the biggest smoke and
>mirrors answer from you yet
>Buzz. Really you wanna call
>me out for not driving
>to Wyoming for a grizzly
>meeting. Game and Fish won't
>even let me hunt in
>the wilderness you think they
>care about my thoughts on
>a grizzly hunt? Hoss
>that Colorado founding member you
>briefly mention is still very
>active in BHA

If the grizzly hunt is that important to you, yes, I would expect you to do just that. Bet you'd find time to drive to Wyoming to hunt one if you drew a tag...

You whine about others not doing anything, even when they do, while you sit on your ass.

I can tell you that those opposing Wyoming's season drove from all over the country to attend meetings.

Guess they care more than you do.

Oh, and the GF has nothing to do with the wilderness guide law, it was passed by the Legislature...statute, not regulation. Big difference, google it, you're welcome, in advance.
 
?DW, Vanilla, and Muley73 make so little sense with their repetitive posts filled with unsubstantiated gibberish and unrelated accusations that I'm pretty sure they are teaming up to start a taxidermy shop in Texas.?

The best part about this is I have yet to make a single accusation against BHA. I have accused Hoss, and now will with you, of being full of total and complete crap, though.

Find one baseless allegation I've made in this thread. Quote it for me here. I'll eithe support it, or retract it.

I can say right now, the two biggest preventative factors of me wanting to be involved with BHA right now are Grizz and Hoss, and it has been that way for some time. You guys don't have a clue.

I'll be waiting for you to show my baseless accusation.
 
>I can say right now, the
>two biggest preventative factors of
>me wanting to be involved
>with BHA right now are
>Grizz and Hoss, and it
>has been that way for
>some time.

Oh, no! What will BHA do without somebody to stir the pot while offering nothing substantive, factual, or beneficial to the discussion?

Every forum needs that guy. I guess you're ours.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
Ummm, I'm an activist. Haven't always been, got pushed into it.

Buzz is correct. I cared about seeing Robin Williams so I went to Las Vegas and saw him.

Cared about seeing George Strait, did the same.

If you care so damn much about Grizzly hunting you go to where the hunt is and fight for it, it sure as hell ain't in Utah or Colorado. And the fight ain't against Land Tawney.

As for wolves, they are in Utah, California. No one introduced them. And buying into BGF and its PR that they can stop it is the absolute stupidest thing around, second only to the jackwagons who fund it.

Muley is famous for "supporting" but not belonging. Easy to complain standing on the fence.

Vanilla is just a critic of everything, I've yet to see him plant a flag, he's great at what doesn't work, who is wrong.

I don't know Buzz. Love to meet him someday and buy him a beer. He does more, knows more, and spends more time on issues than everyone on this post combined. Truth be known so does Grizz.

Like I said before. Enjoy the expo fellas. That lottery, groupie convention is important so I'm sure you'll be there, bitchibg about those damn hippies in sure



From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
Hoss,
I don't stand on any fences. I just dont blindly completely buy in. Guess i was raised to think for myself. I'm positive you and Buzz would be buddies...in your mind. From what I've seen in Buzz?s I'm not so sure.
 
>Hoss,
>I don't stand on any fences.
> I just dont blindly
>completely buy in. Guess
>i was raised to think
>for myself. I'm positive
>you and Buzz would be
>buddies...in your mind. From
>what I've seen in Buzz?s
>I'm not so sure.


Ain't looking for buddies. But you give folks respect who have earned it.

What you said is the very definition of fence sitting


From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
>ORIONTHEHUNTER gets caught spreading absolute falsehoods
>and then has the audacity
>to accuse others of "smoke
>and mirrors".
>
>DW, Vanilla, and Muley73 make so
>little sense with their repetitive
>posts filled with unsubstantiated gibberish
>and unrelated accusations that I'm
>pretty sure they are teaming
>up to start a taxidermy
>shop in Texas.
>
>I guess I should now demand
>they provide proof that they're
>NOT starting a taxidermy shop
>in Texas. It's their duty
>to prove wrong a baseless
>claim, right? I have absolutely
>no proof its true, but
>I typed it so now
>they have to prove a
>negative in an argument. At
>least with their line of
>thinking, that's how it is.
>
>
>The OP admitted he was mislead
>and corrected himself. Good for
>him. I'm glad that one
>less person fell for the
>land-grabbers Washington DC-paid smear campaign
>against BHA. It was all
>worth it.
>
>Grizzly
>
>-----------------------------------------
>"This is a classic case of
>a handful of greedy fly
>fishermen getting too greedy." -Don
>Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>told to KUTV
>
>"It's time to revisit the widely
>accepted principle in the United
>States and Canada that game
>is a public resource."
>-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>quoted in Anchorage Daily News
>

No falsehoods I said national never stated they supported the grizzly hunt in public and not one of you have proved it. I also said they didn't distance themselves from Yvon and Patagonia when they contributed to its demise which is also true.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-18
>AT 02:49?PM (MST)
>
>>That is the biggest smoke and
>>mirrors answer from you yet
>>Buzz. Really you wanna call
>>me out for not driving
>>to Wyoming for a grizzly
>>meeting. Game and Fish won't
>>even let me hunt in
>>the wilderness you think they
>>care about my thoughts on
>>a grizzly hunt? Hoss
>>that Colorado founding member you
>>briefly mention is still very
>>active in BHA
>
>If the grizzly hunt is that
>important to you, yes, I
>would expect you to do
>just that. Bet you'd find
>time to drive to Wyoming
>to hunt one if you
>drew a tag...
>
>You whine about others not doing
>anything, even when they do,
>while you sit on your
>ass.
>
>I can tell you that those
>opposing Wyoming's season drove from
>all over the country to
>attend meetings.
>
>Guess they care more than you
>do.
>
>Oh, and the GF has nothing
>to do with the wilderness
>guide law, it was passed
>by the Legislature...statute, not regulation.
>Big difference, google it, you're
>welcome, in advance.

Wow you got me there, I guess raising a family and spending time with them instead of driving 9hrs to present to a deaf commission in just sitting on my ass. Hey Buzz do you help when our spring bear hunt got cancelled and your BHA Colorado chapter founder was an integral part of it?
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-18 AT 07:54PM (MST)[p]^^^ Go read your post #20

This is getting boring. I'm going to watch football.
 
There is no guarantee of hunting in the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. It implies that hunting may have a place but states that that is not the end goal.

https://www.fws.gov/hunting/north-american-model-of-wildlife-conservation.html

The "best available science" changes with political whim.

If we keep enhancing predators and pushing for the natural environment, there will come a time when the best available science will dictate that there is no longer a surplus for man to harvest.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-18 AT 08:08PM (MST)[p]I'm sure it's in the BHA fine print eel. They've no doubt made a statement.


#livelikezac
 
I can't seem to find a statement on $fw site or webpage about Grizzly hunt cancellation.




From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
Grizz, while you were watching football did you find any of my baseless accusations you so readily implicated me with?

Just wondering? Or maybe you're prepared to admit you're full of it?

Just like hoss being able to answer a simple question...I doubt it.
 
Why have no BHA members been to any of the roundtable meetings so far? I don't recall seeing any of them at the wolf and mountain lion meetings last winter also?
 
>You ever going to answer my
>111 post? Or is your
>silence your answer?

You finished your post saying you were slipping into the shadows and didn't want to debate. I'm not the type of person that feels the need to try and get the last word in. You said your piece so I left it at that. However, if you'd like to have a discussion we can do that too.

Do you realize the hypocrisy in assigning me to beliefs and a "movement" while taking a defensive position regarding the Bundy's. You claim they are not the leading voice in ranching... who do you think that would be? They literally tour many states of the western US spouting their anti-public land BS. They fail to pay for the PUBLIC LANDS they have used and have had confrontations with the public for using those lands. They claim deeded ownership of public lands through "beneficial use" which doesn't apply because that would require "hostile use" which is why they quit paying their grazing fees. They run for public office on their convoluted platform and get national news coverage. They comment on immigration (clearly a non-ranching issue) and Fox News still covers it on their front page. Have you ever attended a Utah Farm Bureau Federation meeting? Have you ever attended a Bundy rally and seen the people there? Have you looked into American Lands Council or National Federal Lands Conference? Do you know who shows up trying limit elk on Utah's public lands so they can get more cattle on it? If you can't see the pervasive anti-public-land sentiment in the ranching community there is nothing more I can do to show you. No other group is represented in that mindset like the ranching community.

I appreciate that you are the all-too-rare rancher that appreciates public land and wildlife. I wish there were more of you. But to pretend that the Bundy's aren't the voice of ranching in the Western US right now is provably false. There is virtually no other rancher alive that has "first name awareness" with the general public.

Just because a guy drives a pickup and hunts doesn't make him pro-hunter. Just because a guy drives an SUV and doesn't hunt doesn't make him anti-hunter. The person that fights for their own financial gain, at the expense of the American public, to limit wildlife and access to public lands is the true Anti-Hunter, regardless of what they drive or the size of their hat.

I don't care what somebody looks like or what they do for a living. I will fight for public land hunting. I understand your commitment to ranching as it puts clothes on your back and food in your stomach; and I don't begrudge you that. But that also means you have a significant conflict of interest in the use of public lands. Ranching is merely one voice among many. As that voice grows quieter each year a few are forced to start screaming in an attempt to be heard. I'll refer you to practically every quote by Utah Farm Bureau over the last several years as they begin every paragraph lamenting the shrinking size of the ranching community. I can appreciate that must be a scary thought for those in the industry.

I hope you, and other ranchers like you, will make a concerted effort to prevent the anti-public-land rancher's greed from becoming more pervasive in the ranching community.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
You paint all ranchers with a pretty broad brush. That comes from having a narrowminded agenda Grizzly! You aren't in county and state meetings with Cattlemen, I AM! You get your "INFO" from liberal slanted media outlets and websites. I am telling you, the vast majority of Utah ranchers do not support Bundy. But you wouldn't listen to me. I am the enemy remember? Speaking of conflicts of interest, you have a giant one as well. But its fine for you to support groups in support of public land mis-management and I am not allowed to support groups that look out for my vocation? True liberal hypocrisy! The reason guys like me have to speak up is because guys like you are attacking us and are falling for the BS your groups keep telling you! There are hundreds of ranchers just like me that care for wildlife and water and the land. But we aren't invited to your club meetings because you assume we are all the Bundys! You make me sick to be called a sportsman. You enjoy yourself. I am done with you. If you would rather have the abortion that is federal land management instead of a local, user-driven management system where we all win, then you aren't a friend of me or my family. AND THAT DOESNT MEAN I SUPPORT THE BUNDY CLAN! OR THE FARM BUREAU! I have simply watched federal stupidity for DECADES! At least state management would give everyone a chance to be heard. This is the part where you scream how the second the state gets control they sell everything to China or Oil Companies or Hillary Clinton's gardener!!! Then kindly explain why the state of Utah still owns and controls the VAST Majority of the ground they were deeded at statehood? You and your sky is falling group ever stop to think that things might improve? But that isn't what the propaganda machine is selling right?
For the last time, I do not support the Bundys. The other ranching families in our state do not either. For you to continue to insinuate that we do is either ignorant or a bald faced lie. And if all the directors of BHA act and think like you do, no wonder you have no desire to work with people like me. You'd rather destroy and align yourself with groups who will be coming for you as soon as you get done with me! Good luck with that! I can see a day in the not to distant future when the entire state is a national park that loses billions of dollars a year, with long lines of people getting told by a dumbass ranger what is pretty. But by God Patagonia will be selling plenty of back packs and walking sticks. That is where you would lead us Grizz. Accidentally, but you will be at the head of that parade.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-18 AT 07:03PM (MST)[p]I'm grateful that the many meetings I've sat in with the ranching community have been less emotion-driven and more constructive than this has been. Calling me a liberal is as righteous as me calling you a Socialist. That would be ridiculous. You've countered that you don't agree with the Bundy mentality (and I've not brought it up since), but there's many in the ranching community that do; as I've provided copious evidence of. As I said, I hope you'll get others like you to take back the microphone from the land grabbers because right now the only voice being heard is theirs.

The ironic thing about this is many have accused me of greed (one particular curse-filled PM comes to mind). That I'm trying to take their heritage or "their land" that their family has grazed on for generations. That couldn't be further from the truth. I've never lobbied for fewer cattle or less ranching. I've only lobbied for public access and hunting. It just happens to be the most powerful group trying to take public land happens to be many in the ranching community. As to the greed claims, I've been fortunate enough in my business that I should probably just join SFW and buy landowner tags and auction tags. I can afford them. But instead I fight for public land for those that can't. My estate is written to go to conservation easements through RMEF. I feel that strongly that public land needs to be protected forever.

As to your contention that I have an agenda, it's true. Your agenda is ranching. My agenda is public land hunting. Often those agendas run counter to each other. Again, just because somebody hunts, doesn't mean their opinions are pro-hunting. Many hunters don't realize that.

There are many fallacies in your post but I'll only take the time to address two. 1) You'd be welcome at any hunting group I've ever been in to discuss wildlife and ranching and how they can co-benefit each other. You should probably start doing that as ranchers are getting a bad name and if ranchers are truly more like you than the Bundy's then it is unfair. 2) A full 1/3 of all private property in Utah was once state-owned. That's how much has been sold. That's the legacy of state-ownership.

Have a good evening. I'm open to talk anytime.

EDIT: I respected your answer that you didn't agree with Bundy's just because they're ranchers. I expect you to respect my statement in #90 that I don't support Patagonia just because they donate to BHA and Hunter Mentor Programs at universities.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
I didnt want this to be slipped into the middle of this thread and go unnoticed.

Post 190


I'm grateful that the many meetings I've sat in with the ranching community have been less emotion-driven and more constructive than this has been. Calling me a liberal is as righteous as me calling you a Socialist. That would be ridiculous. You've countered that you don't agree with the Bundy mentality (and I've not brought it up since), but there's many in the ranching community that do; as I've provided copious evidence of. As I said, I hope you'll get others like you to take back the microphone from the land grabbers because right now the only voice being heard is theirs.

The ironic thing about this is many have accused me of greed (one particular curse-filled PM comes to mind). That I'm trying to take their heritage or "their land" that their family has grazed on for generations. That couldn't be further from the truth. I've never lobbied for fewer cattle or less ranching. I've only lobbied for public access and hunting. It just happens to be the most powerful group trying to take public land happens to be many in the ranching community. As to the greed claims, I've been fortunate enough in my business that I should probably just join SFW and buy landowner tags and auction tags. I can afford them. But instead I fight for public land for those that can't. My estate is written to go to conservation easements through RMEF. I feel that strongly that public land needs to be protected forever.

As to your contention that I have an agenda, it's true. Your agenda is ranching. My agenda is public land hunting. Often those agendas run counter to each other. Again, just because somebody hunts, doesn't mean their opinions are pro-hunting. Many hunters don't realize that.

There are many fallacies in your post but I'll only take the time to address two. 1) You'd be welcome at any hunting group I've ever been in to discuss wildlife and ranching and how they can co-benefit each other. You should probably start doing that as ranchers are getting a bad name and if ranchers are truly more like you than the Bundy's then it is unfair. 2) A full 1/3 of all private property in Utah was once state-owned. That's how much has been sold. That's the legacy of state-ownership.

Have a good evening. I'm open to talk anytime.

EDIT: I respected your answer that you didn't agree with Bundy's just because they're ranchers. I expect you to respect my statement in #90 that I don't support Patagonia just because they donate to BHA and Hunter Mentor Programs at universities.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News


I thought this comment was most telling. There are others.

Again, just because somebody hunts, doesn't mean their opinions are pro-hunting. Many hunters don't realize that.

#livelikezac
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-18 AT 09:52PM (MST)[p]>just because somebody hunts, doesn't
>mean their opinions are pro-hunting.
>Many hunters don't realize that.

I'd like to hear your contribution to the discussion. You may or may not have noticed that I often refer to my positions as pro-public-land hunting. This is deliberate. Do you disagree with my statement above? Do you think that just because somebody hunts that all their opinions are then de facto pro-hunting? If so, wouldn't we all have to agree all the time?

Are Don Peay's quotes in my signature pro-hunting? Or are those particular beliefs not pro-hunting? Are they anti-hunting? Are they anti-public land?

Does Patagonia donating to BHA, Utah Stream Access, and Hunter Mentor programs make Patagonia pro-hunting? Does their advocacy against bison hunting make them anti-hunting?

Does the Utah Wool Growers Association lobbying against sheep introductions make them anti-hunting?

When major sporting retailers quit selling certain products, are they then anti-hunting?

My friend won't shoot coyotes or rabbits because he had pet dogs and bunnies as a kid. Is he anti-hunting? What if he wanted to ban calling of coyotes as unethical?

Subaru donates to ASPCA who is "opposed to hunting animals for sport", is Subaru anti-hunting? Is every Subaru driver anti-hunting?

Does the fact that Mark Zuckerberg hunts make Facebook pro-hunting?

Trump called big game trophy hunting a "horror show." Is he pro-hunting or anti-hunting?

Is SITLA anti-hunting?

Is the Cattleman Association seeking reduced elk numbers to increase cattle on public land pro-hunting or anti-hunting?

Is a high-fence operation pro-hunting if they charge people to shoot alligators in cement swimming pools? (Yes, this happens!)

Does a highly-accomplished big game hunter that won't shoot an elephant because of their family structure make him anti-hunting? What if he pay for ads to limit elephant imports? Is he then pro-hunting, just not of elephants? Or does that make him anti-hunting?

Does a hunter that chooses spot-and-stalk because he feels baiting deer is unethical pro-hunter? What if he works to make baiting illegal in his state? Is he then anti-hunting?

What if somebody eats only deer and elk he kills himself but wants to ban the hunting of large predators such as bears, wolves, grizzlies, and mountain lions? He lives off of wild meat but is a major critic of certain types of hunting, is he pro-hunting or anti-hunting?

___________________________________________

Anybody that thinks these titles can be thrown around with a "conservative" or "liberal" tag or a "pro-hunting" or "anti-hunting" moniker needs to get out a little more. People of all types and all agendas can work in concert or opposition to each other depending on the item. Nobody gets a free pass because of what they drive, where they live, or what their hat looks like.

People need to examine each individual item and think for themselves. To prove that I will eat my own medicine, I've said many times that as soon as SFW (who I've been very critical of) supports public land, I'll join. I've also expressed gratitude to the on-the-ground guys and the hard work they've done. That doesn't mean I'm okay with the Expo process or the mismanagement of public funds (as proven by a Legislative Audit), but I acknowledge that we need to be individualistic about these decisions and look at items through the lens of how they contribute to our values.

There are no blanket claims that apply to everybody in all situations. The world isn't black and white. No person, group, club, or political party can make claim to being right all the time.
 
>You paint all ranchers with a
>pretty broad brush. That comes
>from having a narrowminded agenda
>Grizzly! You aren't in county
>and state meetings with Cattlemen,
>I AM! You get your
>"INFO" from liberal slanted media
>outlets and websites. I am
>telling you, the vast majority
>of Utah ranchers do not
>support Bundy. But you wouldn't
>listen to me. I am
>the enemy remember? Speaking of
>conflicts of interest, you have
>a giant one as well.
>But its fine for you
>to support groups in support
>of public land mis-management and
>I am not allowed to
>support groups that look out
>for my vocation? True liberal
>hypocrisy! The reason guys like
>me have to speak up
>is because guys like you
>are attacking us and are
>falling for the BS your
>groups keep telling you! There
>are hundreds of ranchers just
>like me that care for
>wildlife and water and the
>land. But we aren't invited
>to your club meetings because
>you assume we are all
>the Bundys! You make me
>sick to be called a
>sportsman. You enjoy yourself. I
>am done with you. If
>you would rather have the
>abortion that is federal land
>management instead of a local,
>user-driven management system where we
>all win, then you aren't
>a friend of me or
>my family. AND THAT DOESNT
>MEAN I SUPPORT THE BUNDY
>CLAN! OR THE FARM BUREAU!
>I have simply watched federal
>stupidity for DECADES! At least
>state management would give everyone
>a chance to be heard.
>This is the part where
>you scream how the second
>the state gets control they
>sell everything to China or
>Oil Companies or Hillary Clinton's
>gardener!!! Then kindly explain why
>the state of Utah still
>owns and controls the VAST
>Majority of the ground they
>were deeded at statehood? You
>and your sky is falling
>group ever stop to think
>that things might improve? But
>that isn't what the propaganda
>machine is selling right?
>For the last time, I do
>not support the Bundys. The
>other ranching families in our
>state do not either. For
>you to continue to insinuate
>that we do is either
>ignorant or a bald faced
>lie. And if all the
>directors of BHA act and
>think like you do, no
>wonder you have no desire
>to work with people like
>me. You'd rather destroy and
>align yourself with groups who
>will be coming for you
>as soon as you get
>done with me! Good luck
>with that! I can see
>a day in the not
>to distant future when the
>entire state is a national
>park that loses billions of
>dollars a year, with long
>lines of people getting told
>by a dumbass ranger what
>is pretty. But by God
>Patagonia will be selling plenty
>of back packs and walking
>sticks. That is where you
>would lead us Grizz. Accidentally,
>but you will be at
>the head of that parade.
>
>

LMAO!!!!!
 
Hey Grizz, cool post. I actually agree with it.

Just wondering if you've found all those baseless accusations I've made in this thread yet?

I hope you're having a wonderful holiday season.
 
Hey Niller?

I'm Just checking on your Wife's Safety!:D:D:D








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
I quit replying to you because you offer virtually nothing positive to threads, don't contribute in a positive intellectual way, and attempt to cause problems where they don't need to be. Your math post and the confirmation follow-up on the Tines Up thread are good examples of this. There have been hundreds (maybe even a thousand) posts on BHA and you've peddled the same stuff the whole time with no backing.

I'm not interested in engaging with that. I'll have honest, even heated, conversations all day. It's all in fun and I think most of us can see that we'd get along great sitting around a campfire. But I don't feel the need to argue with somebody who doesn't contribute to an honest exchange just to prove I'm right. So just like with Tri, I'll just ignore your posts and move on.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
Grizz, I'll take that as a ?I made baseless accusations about Vanilla above in this thread that I can't back up? mea culpa and we can move on.

And I feel the same about you. Glad we're on the same page. I don't need red herrings, misdirections, or flat out lies in my life either.

Bessy, she's good last I communicated with her a few hours ago. We do sincerely appreciate your concern though! Thanks for looking out.
 
I spent a lot of my own money and time 2 winters ago feeding deer and elk here in Idaho.it was a horrible winter . We had emergency game and fish meetings and set up feed stations. In an area where there are a lot of young BHA members, not a one of them was involved in helping out in the feeding or moving these animals to feed sites. I am heavily involved with game and fish meetings, which involves setting season dates and quotas,once again there are never any BHAs at the meetings. They are all up in Ketchum at the bar watching the next showing of the Meat Eater.
 
>I spent a lot of my
>own money and time 2
>winters ago feeding deer and
>elk here in Idaho.it was
>a horrible winter . We
>had emergency game and fish
>meetings and set up feed
>stations. In an area where
>there are a lot of
>young BHA members, not a
>one of them was involved
>in helping out in the
>feeding or moving these animals
>to feed sites. I am
>heavily involved with game and
>fish meetings, which involves setting
>season dates and quotas,once again
>there are never any BHAs
>at the meetings. They are
>all up in Ketchum at
>the bar watching the next
>showing of the Meat Eater.
>

The Wyoming Chapter was involved, and in the room when the WGF made the decision (correct decision) to not provide supplemental feed to deer because of the harsh winter. There's lots of science and research out there that proves supplemental feeding in harsh winters is really expensive and really ineffective. Maybe the ID Chapter knows/knew it would be a massive waste of resources and time to feed deer.

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/Habitat/Statewide-Mule-Deer-Initiatives/Keep-Your-Mule-Deer-WILD
 

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