clifhunter
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So who thinks Obamas bail out will work............................bushes didnt..........AND I DONT THINK OBAMAS WILL................................
BAIL OUT
- Thread starter clifhunter
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B
bwnco
Guest
If a gov't bailout will make the economy better, thats all we would ever have to do when it started to slow down.
There thinking all of the gov't BS spending during the depression to stimulate economy and get more jobs to the private sector actually made the depression last longer.
Pretty much proven you need to let things run its course, let the companys that over spent go bankrupt, thats why they have the laws. Get people back to living within there means. Huge tax cuts, has always stimulated economy more then anything if you read history.
No, I dont think it will work. We are allready in debt up to our butts, now spend another trillion we dont have?
I think we will eventually get threw it. USA always seems to pull it out. I hope and pray for all of us anyways.
Middle class has to live within a budget, why the rest of the USA don't is beyond my comprehension. So frustrating, and those idiots in Wash DC keep looking for expert help when its so simple.
There thinking all of the gov't BS spending during the depression to stimulate economy and get more jobs to the private sector actually made the depression last longer.
Pretty much proven you need to let things run its course, let the companys that over spent go bankrupt, thats why they have the laws. Get people back to living within there means. Huge tax cuts, has always stimulated economy more then anything if you read history.
No, I dont think it will work. We are allready in debt up to our butts, now spend another trillion we dont have?
I think we will eventually get threw it. USA always seems to pull it out. I hope and pray for all of us anyways.
Middle class has to live within a budget, why the rest of the USA don't is beyond my comprehension. So frustrating, and those idiots in Wash DC keep looking for expert help when its so simple.
H
huntindude
Guest
I don't think it will work, but he has no choice.
We're going to borrow an oh my god amount of money to see this through no matter what. state unemployment funds are running out, people who have lost their jobs have lost their health insurance, on and on and it all falls back on the feds to fund. it isn't as simple as sit back and watch and hope, no president would or could do that.
We're going to borrow an oh my god amount of money to see this through no matter what. state unemployment funds are running out, people who have lost their jobs have lost their health insurance, on and on and it all falls back on the feds to fund. it isn't as simple as sit back and watch and hope, no president would or could do that.
JustMuleys
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I agree, I don't think it will work. I don't think anything will work until we change our Foreign Policy.
T
TFinalshot
Guest
"I agree, I don't think it will work. I don't think anything will work until we change our Foreign Policy. "
okay, that's a stange thing to say under this "bail out" post, since it is the only thing that might/has changed.
So far, outside foreign policy obama is acting much like Bush did, or in the very least he's walking in his footsteps and following his lead.
So from what policy to what policy? If there's anything you will see from this administration its change in foreign policy, so maybe according to some there is hope. . .
Hum. . . I dont see how the bail outs going to work, I dont see how things will get better without first getting worse, this economy was made drunk by idiots it's going to take a while for it to dry out, sober up, and then come to grips with reality, its gota hit rock bottom before it goes back up. It aint hit rock bottom and wont until the feds back off of bailing everyone out. . .
I dont have the answers, it's much to complicated for me, but I do know that i've always been a cash guy, i've never spent beyond my means (there have been many times that I 've been tempted) yet me and people like me are getting the shaft for doing what I was taught to do. . . seems kinda like a strange message to send. . .
okay, that's a stange thing to say under this "bail out" post, since it is the only thing that might/has changed.
So far, outside foreign policy obama is acting much like Bush did, or in the very least he's walking in his footsteps and following his lead.
So from what policy to what policy? If there's anything you will see from this administration its change in foreign policy, so maybe according to some there is hope. . .
Hum. . . I dont see how the bail outs going to work, I dont see how things will get better without first getting worse, this economy was made drunk by idiots it's going to take a while for it to dry out, sober up, and then come to grips with reality, its gota hit rock bottom before it goes back up. It aint hit rock bottom and wont until the feds back off of bailing everyone out. . .
I dont have the answers, it's much to complicated for me, but I do know that i've always been a cash guy, i've never spent beyond my means (there have been many times that I 've been tempted) yet me and people like me are getting the shaft for doing what I was taught to do. . . seems kinda like a strange message to send. . .
NeMont
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-09 AT 11:46AM (MST)[p]
My problem is just look at what the people in Washington are wanting to spend money on. It is just flushing money down the toilet that has no stimulating effect on the economy. It is funny how every corporation is evil according to democrats unless the corporate headquarters are in a congressmans or senators home state or district.
We are borrowing money we don't have to attempt to encourage economic behavior that has gotten us into this problem. We don't need to buy more cars or houses or cheap crap from China. However listen to Washington and hear what they are saying needs to happen to "stimulate" the economy.
I keep hearing HD say that Obama cannot just sit on the sidelines. I don't think anybody has said that, however committing Trillions of dollars toward bad monetary policies is worse then doing nothing. If the average American voter is too stupid to understand the basic economics of the situation then we deserve to be bankrupt as nation. As early as 2004 it was obvious that housing was headed for a bubble. Greenspan was heralded as genius for his "management of the U.S. economy". Funny how the politicians who openly cheered on the creation of the bubble now have no responsibility. Nothing is ever a politicians fault.
Let people go bankrupt, there is lot's of capital in the world looking for quality investments and that is how the market is supposed to work. The recession is the cure for the excesses of the past not the problem. I don't want soup lines nor do I wish ill upon anyone but it is terrible morality to tax me for others greed and stupidity, plus the idiots won't learn anything from this and repeat their actions in the future.
Nemont
My problem is just look at what the people in Washington are wanting to spend money on. It is just flushing money down the toilet that has no stimulating effect on the economy. It is funny how every corporation is evil according to democrats unless the corporate headquarters are in a congressmans or senators home state or district.
We are borrowing money we don't have to attempt to encourage economic behavior that has gotten us into this problem. We don't need to buy more cars or houses or cheap crap from China. However listen to Washington and hear what they are saying needs to happen to "stimulate" the economy.
I keep hearing HD say that Obama cannot just sit on the sidelines. I don't think anybody has said that, however committing Trillions of dollars toward bad monetary policies is worse then doing nothing. If the average American voter is too stupid to understand the basic economics of the situation then we deserve to be bankrupt as nation. As early as 2004 it was obvious that housing was headed for a bubble. Greenspan was heralded as genius for his "management of the U.S. economy". Funny how the politicians who openly cheered on the creation of the bubble now have no responsibility. Nothing is ever a politicians fault.
Let people go bankrupt, there is lot's of capital in the world looking for quality investments and that is how the market is supposed to work. The recession is the cure for the excesses of the past not the problem. I don't want soup lines nor do I wish ill upon anyone but it is terrible morality to tax me for others greed and stupidity, plus the idiots won't learn anything from this and repeat their actions in the future.
Nemont
H
huntindude
Guest
You have some good points, but again no solutions.
Where do we spend the money to get the most good? and how would you regulate it so it doesn't vanish like the bank money did? and don't anyone say tax cuts are the answer to dreams, I'm going to hang onto more money if we get tax cuts waiting for better buys to emerge, if taxes are higher I'll look for more depreciation and spend more. in the long run saving money is good, in the short run it screws ever getting the economy going again. I'm all for tax cuts, I just think those who say they'll solve all our problems are wrong, and I've yet to hear their better ideas.
We're screwed, damage control is all we're after right now.
Where do we spend the money to get the most good? and how would you regulate it so it doesn't vanish like the bank money did? and don't anyone say tax cuts are the answer to dreams, I'm going to hang onto more money if we get tax cuts waiting for better buys to emerge, if taxes are higher I'll look for more depreciation and spend more. in the long run saving money is good, in the short run it screws ever getting the economy going again. I'm all for tax cuts, I just think those who say they'll solve all our problems are wrong, and I've yet to hear their better ideas.
We're screwed, damage control is all we're after right now.
NeMont
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They could simplify the tax codes greatly and have it a far more efficient system of leving and collecting tax reciepts.
My solution is too much of reality for either you or Washington to take it seriously. If any money is to be spent it should be spent on job training, ensuring a safety net for displaced workers and making certain the poorest among us do not go hunger or homeless.
The reality is that the economy is not able to be turned on and off like a switch. For the government to spend any money it first has to remove that money from the economy. The pie isn't any bigger just the pain is felt by different people. All this talk of stimulating the economy comes at the future decline in the living standard of our children and grandchildren.
There are lots of solutions that don't involve borrowing money by an already broke government to spend on stuff that isn't going to employ one more person. In some ways I wish the rest of the world would pull their loans so that people would stop thinking the our government is going to provide them with the means to continue to overconsume.
Nemont
My solution is too much of reality for either you or Washington to take it seriously. If any money is to be spent it should be spent on job training, ensuring a safety net for displaced workers and making certain the poorest among us do not go hunger or homeless.
The reality is that the economy is not able to be turned on and off like a switch. For the government to spend any money it first has to remove that money from the economy. The pie isn't any bigger just the pain is felt by different people. All this talk of stimulating the economy comes at the future decline in the living standard of our children and grandchildren.
There are lots of solutions that don't involve borrowing money by an already broke government to spend on stuff that isn't going to employ one more person. In some ways I wish the rest of the world would pull their loans so that people would stop thinking the our government is going to provide them with the means to continue to overconsume.
Nemont
H
huntindude
Guest
The government can spend money without taking it out of the economy, we've been doing it for years it's called borrowing and if we hadn't been doing it we'ld be a whole lot better off today.
We need to learn how to get by on less, I think Americans have seen the peak in their standard of living and we may as well face it. but, there is a difference in getting by with less and getting by with nothing. Obama has to try give people a chance at a job even if it pays less, I'm not saying this plan he has is the way to do that but lets hear what the republicans have to say that sounds better. if it makes more sense I'll agree, right now all they're doing is whining so I can't say.
We're so deep in debt today that if throwing some money at this thing will fix it then go for it. to say we can't spend a few bucks now is like the chick with $10 left on her credit card saying she can't have that last cup of Starbucks because she'll go broke. that horse left the barn, accept it we're a debtor nation the only question left is who isn't going to get repaid.
We need to learn how to get by on less, I think Americans have seen the peak in their standard of living and we may as well face it. but, there is a difference in getting by with less and getting by with nothing. Obama has to try give people a chance at a job even if it pays less, I'm not saying this plan he has is the way to do that but lets hear what the republicans have to say that sounds better. if it makes more sense I'll agree, right now all they're doing is whining so I can't say.
We're so deep in debt today that if throwing some money at this thing will fix it then go for it. to say we can't spend a few bucks now is like the chick with $10 left on her credit card saying she can't have that last cup of Starbucks because she'll go broke. that horse left the barn, accept it we're a debtor nation the only question left is who isn't going to get repaid.
NeMont
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-09 AT 03:37PM (MST)[p]
HD,
Come on you are smarter then that. The very act of borrowing takes money away from other borrowers, private firms and individuals have to compete with the demands of government borrowing. The governments insatiable demand for more and more money stifles others from having more capital to expand their businesses and finance projects. Borrowing or taxing doesn't really matter the government takes money out of the economy, it has to because the government doesn't have any wealth of it's own.
If you believe throwing money against the wall and hoping some sticks is a solution then by all means continue to support Obama's "plan".
For the rest of those willing to listen ask yourself this question: If government borrowing and spending stimulates the economy they why didn't all the previous spending? We have spent MASSIVE amount of borrowed money and yet our economy is in a deep and deepening recession. If the previous $4 to $5 TRILLION dollars didn't keep the economy from having a recession then how is this TRILLION dollars going to help? The very same government that has spent money like drunken sailors and put us in this position is telling us that more spending will cure the ills of the economy? Doing what you have always done and expecting different results was Einstein's definition of insanity. That is what our government is doing. It is fighting the fire with gasoline, high octane aviation gas it appears.
The line items in this stimulus bill would even make Ted Stevens blush. This isn't the Audcity of Hope it is the Audicity of Earmarks for political payoffs.
Nemont
HD,
Come on you are smarter then that. The very act of borrowing takes money away from other borrowers, private firms and individuals have to compete with the demands of government borrowing. The governments insatiable demand for more and more money stifles others from having more capital to expand their businesses and finance projects. Borrowing or taxing doesn't really matter the government takes money out of the economy, it has to because the government doesn't have any wealth of it's own.
If you believe throwing money against the wall and hoping some sticks is a solution then by all means continue to support Obama's "plan".
For the rest of those willing to listen ask yourself this question: If government borrowing and spending stimulates the economy they why didn't all the previous spending? We have spent MASSIVE amount of borrowed money and yet our economy is in a deep and deepening recession. If the previous $4 to $5 TRILLION dollars didn't keep the economy from having a recession then how is this TRILLION dollars going to help? The very same government that has spent money like drunken sailors and put us in this position is telling us that more spending will cure the ills of the economy? Doing what you have always done and expecting different results was Einstein's definition of insanity. That is what our government is doing. It is fighting the fire with gasoline, high octane aviation gas it appears.
The line items in this stimulus bill would even make Ted Stevens blush. This isn't the Audcity of Hope it is the Audicity of Earmarks for political payoffs.
Nemont
D
driftersifter
Guest
My first solution is that every government worker take a 10 percent pay cut.
My second solution is health insurance premeiums take a 10 percent cut.
My third solution is government subsidies take a 40 percent cut.
My fourth solution is international subsidies take a 90 percent cut.
I think if we start there we may find that we have a surplus in our government and we as a country can start to address the deficiet we are continualy adding to each and every day.
I would like to add that every senator and congressman forfiet thier expense account. They are paid a salary they can live off thier salary and if this job has extra expenses they will have to pick and choose what they can afford and what they cannot.
Mike
My second solution is health insurance premeiums take a 10 percent cut.
My third solution is government subsidies take a 40 percent cut.
My fourth solution is international subsidies take a 90 percent cut.
I think if we start there we may find that we have a surplus in our government and we as a country can start to address the deficiet we are continualy adding to each and every day.
I would like to add that every senator and congressman forfiet thier expense account. They are paid a salary they can live off thier salary and if this job has extra expenses they will have to pick and choose what they can afford and what they cannot.
Mike
NeMont
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Drift,
Why should a lowly clerk inputting data barely eeking out a living be penalized the same as a high level gov't employee? Are you proposing cutting pay of all troops by 10% also?
Health insurance premiums on the private side have nothing to do with deficit spending and are not something our government has control of as of yet.
Define what you mean by subsidies? Do you mean welfare and WIC to young moms, CRP to farmers, export subsidies to manufacturers or any other direct payment to corps. and indviduals? Why should a young mother or father putting food on the table be cutback the percentage as a farmer? or why should a farmer be cut back the same percentage as Congra or ADM?
I don't know what international subsidies mean but if you are talking foreign aid then you may need to understand how truly small that number actually in comparison to what other programs get from the budget.
Even if you cut all discretionary spending you wouldn't have a budget surplus. We have been over promised benefits and our government is not capable of telling us the truth about that.
I don't care if a congressman or senator has an expense account or not because that has nothing much to do with our current situation.
Nemont
Why should a lowly clerk inputting data barely eeking out a living be penalized the same as a high level gov't employee? Are you proposing cutting pay of all troops by 10% also?
Health insurance premiums on the private side have nothing to do with deficit spending and are not something our government has control of as of yet.
Define what you mean by subsidies? Do you mean welfare and WIC to young moms, CRP to farmers, export subsidies to manufacturers or any other direct payment to corps. and indviduals? Why should a young mother or father putting food on the table be cutback the percentage as a farmer? or why should a farmer be cut back the same percentage as Congra or ADM?
I don't know what international subsidies mean but if you are talking foreign aid then you may need to understand how truly small that number actually in comparison to what other programs get from the budget.
Even if you cut all discretionary spending you wouldn't have a budget surplus. We have been over promised benefits and our government is not capable of telling us the truth about that.
I don't care if a congressman or senator has an expense account or not because that has nothing much to do with our current situation.
Nemont
H
huntindude
Guest
Nemont we're pretty much in agreement, we just like to argue.
The biggest flaw in your logic is reality though, what SHOULD be done, what COULD be done and what WILL be done have nothing in common. Americans just don't like pain, and it's been several generations since we've really felt it. so we're not going to accept it until all options are exhausted, that means throwing tons of money at it until our credit runs out.
I agree with most of what you're saying, but you're preaching to a mighty small and politically weak crowd.
The biggest flaw in your logic is reality though, what SHOULD be done, what COULD be done and what WILL be done have nothing in common. Americans just don't like pain, and it's been several generations since we've really felt it. so we're not going to accept it until all options are exhausted, that means throwing tons of money at it until our credit runs out.
I agree with most of what you're saying, but you're preaching to a mighty small and politically weak crowd.
Corruption at its best
LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-09 AT 10:30PM (MST)[p]I couldn't possibly read every word written hear because my attention span is a little short but I thought we were going to spend several billion on infrastructure. Wouldn't that be a good investment?
Supposedly the average american has umpteen credit cards and thousands of dollars on each one. Especially now that jobs are becoming more scarse by the minute. Paying 20-30% interest is keeping people from spending money to help boost the economy. Why didn't w force the credit card companies to lower interest rates to around 5% so people can get the **** out of debt and boost the economy? These lowlife credit card companies got bailed out. Working americans are taking it up the .......nevermind. At least w and shooter will be alright. That's really all that matters I guess. Can BO sit on his hands like w did? Let's see.
LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-09 AT 10:30PM (MST)[p]I couldn't possibly read every word written hear because my attention span is a little short but I thought we were going to spend several billion on infrastructure. Wouldn't that be a good investment?
Supposedly the average american has umpteen credit cards and thousands of dollars on each one. Especially now that jobs are becoming more scarse by the minute. Paying 20-30% interest is keeping people from spending money to help boost the economy. Why didn't w force the credit card companies to lower interest rates to around 5% so people can get the **** out of debt and boost the economy? These lowlife credit card companies got bailed out. Working americans are taking it up the .......nevermind. At least w and shooter will be alright. That's really all that matters I guess. Can BO sit on his hands like w did? Let's see.
T
TFinalshot
Guest
nemont, youre a smart guy and I mostly agree with you. But in this instance I think you dropped a little far from the tree. Sure debt is not good, overspending is not good, and in the end our economy will suffer in the short run (50 years). However there really is a difference between the bail outs of Bush (in not picking him because he's s dumb dumb, i'm using his plan as an example) and the capitol improvement projects that Obama Proposes.
I'm not saying I like either of them, but if you cant see the difference between putting people to work building things that will, over time be useful, and slipping checks to your best friends, I think youve been in the flat land too long and the cold air is starting to freeze you hat-rack.
In the end, i'm pretty sure Obama's plan will need a lot more work and a lot more time if it has any chance of succeed, we already know the outcome of the Bush give-away. I also know that employment is half the battle, just keeping people busy with their hands is important. Our system is in poor shape, i'd rather support a plan that we can see and that has at least some chance of success than i would more spending, as you put it, like drunken sailors. Maybe no matter what we do we just prolong the inevitable, but at least under obamas plan we will have a great party and some infastructure to rebuild our economy upon, with Bush we did not even get a party, but we did get the check. . .
I'm not saying I like either of them, but if you cant see the difference between putting people to work building things that will, over time be useful, and slipping checks to your best friends, I think youve been in the flat land too long and the cold air is starting to freeze you hat-rack.
In the end, i'm pretty sure Obama's plan will need a lot more work and a lot more time if it has any chance of succeed, we already know the outcome of the Bush give-away. I also know that employment is half the battle, just keeping people busy with their hands is important. Our system is in poor shape, i'd rather support a plan that we can see and that has at least some chance of success than i would more spending, as you put it, like drunken sailors. Maybe no matter what we do we just prolong the inevitable, but at least under obamas plan we will have a great party and some infastructure to rebuild our economy upon, with Bush we did not even get a party, but we did get the check. . .
NeMont
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RE: Corruption at its best
Zigga,
I take you aren't big on personal responsibility. Why not ask VP Biden why he carried the heavy water for the credit card industry in the bankrupcty law he helped get passed.
Did the credit card companies force their customers to run credit card bills?
Nemont
Zigga,
I take you aren't big on personal responsibility. Why not ask VP Biden why he carried the heavy water for the credit card industry in the bankrupcty law he helped get passed.
Did the credit card companies force their customers to run credit card bills?
Nemont
NeMont
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RE: Corruption at its best
I know where you are going I just disagree with the path you want to take.
No swan this year. I had two chances but both times they were gray birds. Shot lots of other bird though, one of the best upland seasons I have ever had.
Nemont
I know where you are going I just disagree with the path you want to take.
No swan this year. I had two chances but both times they were gray birds. Shot lots of other bird though, one of the best upland seasons I have ever had.
Nemont
NeMont
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RE: Corruption at its best
LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-09 AT 11:38AM (MST)[p]
T,
How much of the currently proposed stimulus package actually goes for infrastructure? Go look at the House bill. It is a very very small number. Also how many infrastructure projects are "shovel ready" meaning they have been surveyed, designed, permitted, financed and materials are either on site or at least ordered?
Are you willing to suspend some or all the environment reviews and speed up the permiting process to help get these projects on the fast track? So before this infrastructure spending even begins to stimulate the economy we are looking at least 3 years and probably more like 5 years before there is anything approaching an economic impact. I don't think the American people's attention span is that long.
Also in this bill there are tax cuts totaling $275 billion, the remaining $550 Billion is almost all either education spending, one time spending on welfare and aid to the States, not a whole lot of infrastructure is even talked about.
I thought tax cuts were evil and only go to the rich? HD just got done explaining why tax cuts are not a solution, and that nobody should consider tax cuts as a way to stimulate the economy, because guys like him don't need it and most American won't spend it, they will just save it. Why is Obama saying tax cuts would work to stimulate the economy?
EDIT: So that Tfinal and I can stay on topic
Nemont
LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-09 AT 11:38AM (MST)[p]
T,
How much of the currently proposed stimulus package actually goes for infrastructure? Go look at the House bill. It is a very very small number. Also how many infrastructure projects are "shovel ready" meaning they have been surveyed, designed, permitted, financed and materials are either on site or at least ordered?
Are you willing to suspend some or all the environment reviews and speed up the permiting process to help get these projects on the fast track? So before this infrastructure spending even begins to stimulate the economy we are looking at least 3 years and probably more like 5 years before there is anything approaching an economic impact. I don't think the American people's attention span is that long.
Also in this bill there are tax cuts totaling $275 billion, the remaining $550 Billion is almost all either education spending, one time spending on welfare and aid to the States, not a whole lot of infrastructure is even talked about.
I thought tax cuts were evil and only go to the rich? HD just got done explaining why tax cuts are not a solution, and that nobody should consider tax cuts as a way to stimulate the economy, because guys like him don't need it and most American won't spend it, they will just save it. Why is Obama saying tax cuts would work to stimulate the economy?
EDIT: So that Tfinal and I can stay on topic
Nemont
T
TFinalshot
Guest
RE: Corruption at its best
LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-09 AT 11:09AM (MST)[p]Nemont, you dont understand, were not dealing with the underlying source of the problem, were trying to patch the wounds - sheesh, do you ever pay any attention - ;-), your whole post was was going along real good until you spun off on Made in America. THE one thing about the current proposal, is that it's all stateside money, the Bush bail out was all offshore money. . . at least we get to loan our butts to china and have some fun doing it. . .
Now, i'm not defending the obama plan in as much as I'm saying that even environmental review pays employees, ever see one get done without workers?
Anyhow, i'm sceptical of the whole mess. . . however we will spend it, that we can be sure of, just how best to do that is the question. I'll take the pill so long as we are going to spend our money here, in the USA and so far the package supports US spending, again, unlike the Bush plan which just shoveled billions to banks who then put that in their own offshore accounts. . .
LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-09 AT 11:09AM (MST)[p]Nemont, you dont understand, were not dealing with the underlying source of the problem, were trying to patch the wounds - sheesh, do you ever pay any attention - ;-), your whole post was was going along real good until you spun off on Made in America. THE one thing about the current proposal, is that it's all stateside money, the Bush bail out was all offshore money. . . at least we get to loan our butts to china and have some fun doing it. . .
Now, i'm not defending the obama plan in as much as I'm saying that even environmental review pays employees, ever see one get done without workers?
Anyhow, i'm sceptical of the whole mess. . . however we will spend it, that we can be sure of, just how best to do that is the question. I'll take the pill so long as we are going to spend our money here, in the USA and so far the package supports US spending, again, unlike the Bush plan which just shoveled billions to banks who then put that in their own offshore accounts. . .
RE: Corruption at its best
ever since the great depression the tax rates have incrementaly gotten less progressive, helping the rich get richer, faster, get a million and turn it into ten million no problem, you know money makes money, we just had the Bush tax cuts not long ago and look what is going on now, I would much rather have a good paying job than a thousand dollar tax cut. The republicans are going to promote tax cuts, its their bread and butter issue, and many are going to oppose the stimulas bill, because if it doesn't help much they will have their power meters jolted, its a game both sides play. The only thing that I care for is the infrastructure spending, 150 billion or so I hear. the spending of money on things like cobra insurance really irks me. Does anyone know if the federal employees are still getting cost of living raises every year? isnt that something most everyone else taking a beating and they are probably getting raises! where's my gun!!
ever since the great depression the tax rates have incrementaly gotten less progressive, helping the rich get richer, faster, get a million and turn it into ten million no problem, you know money makes money, we just had the Bush tax cuts not long ago and look what is going on now, I would much rather have a good paying job than a thousand dollar tax cut. The republicans are going to promote tax cuts, its their bread and butter issue, and many are going to oppose the stimulas bill, because if it doesn't help much they will have their power meters jolted, its a game both sides play. The only thing that I care for is the infrastructure spending, 150 billion or so I hear. the spending of money on things like cobra insurance really irks me. Does anyone know if the federal employees are still getting cost of living raises every year? isnt that something most everyone else taking a beating and they are probably getting raises! where's my gun!!
NeMont
Long Time Member
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RE: Corruption at its best
LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-09 AT 11:34AM (MST)[p]T,
I know we are going to spend this money. That is a fact the train has already left the station. I just don't have to support it. I just think it is funny that for 8 years we have been told that tax cuts don't work. Now 33% of Obama's stimulus plan is tax cuts. Does anyone believe that giving individuals $500 and families $1,000 is going to lift this economy much or at all? I would rather they kept that money and addressed other issues.
I know you think I am crazy but on this issue it just appears that we are going to have to agree to disagree. Borrowing and spending on infrastructure is not the way to build our economy. I agree updated infrastructure is nice but at this point I don't believe we can afford it.
Piper,
I think you really need to take a deeper look at the tax code if you believe that you can easily turn a million into ten million. I got news for all those "rich" guys pay huge taxes on their incomes. I was just looking at what I paid in taxes and fees last year for my little business, it is a staggering burden when you look at a full years worth of payroll taxes, withholding, my half of FICA, all the associated fees and licensing fees.
Explain if Tax cuts are bad and the democrats contol the House, Senate and White House how do you come to the conclusion that it is the Republicans fault for having tax cuts? They have no power in either chamber or the White House. Even if they filibuster in the Senate the Democrats only need to pull away two republicans to invoke cloture. Sen. Snow would assuredly vote for cloture and most likely so would Sen. Specter because he is up for reelection 2010 and is a Republican from a blue state.
So with all the power to craft a stimulus package the democrats are still saying 33% of the stimulus should come in the form of a tax cuts. Your beloved of democrats must think that tax cuts work. How do you square that with your beliefs that only Republicans support tax cuts? The House democrats wrote this bill without an ounce of republican input.
Nemont
LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-09 AT 11:34AM (MST)[p]T,
I know we are going to spend this money. That is a fact the train has already left the station. I just don't have to support it. I just think it is funny that for 8 years we have been told that tax cuts don't work. Now 33% of Obama's stimulus plan is tax cuts. Does anyone believe that giving individuals $500 and families $1,000 is going to lift this economy much or at all? I would rather they kept that money and addressed other issues.
I know you think I am crazy but on this issue it just appears that we are going to have to agree to disagree. Borrowing and spending on infrastructure is not the way to build our economy. I agree updated infrastructure is nice but at this point I don't believe we can afford it.
Piper,
I think you really need to take a deeper look at the tax code if you believe that you can easily turn a million into ten million. I got news for all those "rich" guys pay huge taxes on their incomes. I was just looking at what I paid in taxes and fees last year for my little business, it is a staggering burden when you look at a full years worth of payroll taxes, withholding, my half of FICA, all the associated fees and licensing fees.
Explain if Tax cuts are bad and the democrats contol the House, Senate and White House how do you come to the conclusion that it is the Republicans fault for having tax cuts? They have no power in either chamber or the White House. Even if they filibuster in the Senate the Democrats only need to pull away two republicans to invoke cloture. Sen. Snow would assuredly vote for cloture and most likely so would Sen. Specter because he is up for reelection 2010 and is a Republican from a blue state.
So with all the power to craft a stimulus package the democrats are still saying 33% of the stimulus should come in the form of a tax cuts. Your beloved of democrats must think that tax cuts work. How do you square that with your beliefs that only Republicans support tax cuts? The House democrats wrote this bill without an ounce of republican input.
Nemont
RE: Corruption at its best
Nemont, Its what Boehner has been talking about on every news cast he can get on, tax cuts and how they will stimulate the economy the fastest, and Obama has been trying to strike a bipartisan note, so here we are, I know taxes are high, state, local, federal, it goes on and on, but the federal taxes on the wealthy have been declining since the 50s, the last decade has been like the roaring 20s, and here we are, I want lower taxes, but so far no one has been talking about the deep cuts required to make tax cuts sustainable, what a mess, oh and the top income tax bracket in the 50s was 91 percent, amazing as that sounds, thats why you heard JFK say what he said in his speech about taxes, Limbaughs favorite speech
Nemont, Its what Boehner has been talking about on every news cast he can get on, tax cuts and how they will stimulate the economy the fastest, and Obama has been trying to strike a bipartisan note, so here we are, I know taxes are high, state, local, federal, it goes on and on, but the federal taxes on the wealthy have been declining since the 50s, the last decade has been like the roaring 20s, and here we are, I want lower taxes, but so far no one has been talking about the deep cuts required to make tax cuts sustainable, what a mess, oh and the top income tax bracket in the 50s was 91 percent, amazing as that sounds, thats why you heard JFK say what he said in his speech about taxes, Limbaughs favorite speech
BrowningRage
Long Time Member
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It won't work economically... But the fact of the matter is that no matter what Obama does, he will be heralded as our nation's hero by the media!!!
Listening to where all of the spending is going, everyone seems to have their hand out. It makes me sick to think that something like this will pass as long as each politician gets their cut to do with what they want... And that is exactly how it works...
Only about 30% of the money is going to things that are related to true stimulus and infrastructure, the other 70% isn't being reported officially as far as I have seen.
Listening to where all of the spending is going, everyone seems to have their hand out. It makes me sick to think that something like this will pass as long as each politician gets their cut to do with what they want... And that is exactly how it works...
Only about 30% of the money is going to things that are related to true stimulus and infrastructure, the other 70% isn't being reported officially as far as I have seen.
NeMont
Long Time Member
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Piper,
Tax rates are only part of the equation. Go look at what could be written off in the. 1950's. Look at total tax receipts over the same period of tax law change. Even the democrats agreed that tax rates were confiscatory and penalized people for success.
In addition consider what has happened to state and local taxes over the same period. Not only have those taxes increased but there is a plethora of new taxes and fees that did not exist back then.
I will make a bet with you. I bet the democrats don't move to increase tax rates on the "rich" in Obama's first term.
Nemont
Tax rates are only part of the equation. Go look at what could be written off in the. 1950's. Look at total tax receipts over the same period of tax law change. Even the democrats agreed that tax rates were confiscatory and penalized people for success.
In addition consider what has happened to state and local taxes over the same period. Not only have those taxes increased but there is a plethora of new taxes and fees that did not exist back then.
I will make a bet with you. I bet the democrats don't move to increase tax rates on the "rich" in Obama's first term.
Nemont
I won't make that bet, taxing the rich now wouldn't help anything. Is it just me or do others see the similarity to the great depression, the build up, the rich getting more so faster than ever, and then the crash. Of course I can only read about the past and from listening to my grandparents, A friend of mine had a scare, a blood clot, so they flew him to the big hospital a 240 mile road trip, then a five mile ambulance ride from the airport, the plane was an old cessna not a helicopter. The bill, eleven thousand for the plane ride and nine hundred for the ambulance. Its not hard for me to see why the working class is in trouble
NeMont
Long Time Member
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Piper,
I think it is playing out exactly like the great depression and unfortunately the politicians are making all the same mistakes as then.
Go read this text of the bill the House just passed and then come and explain how 2/3's of that money requested is going to stimulate anything.
But the American people were the ones who decided that "housing can never go down". Alan Greenspan, I am sure with GWB begging him, decided that after the Tech bubble burst he wouldn't let there be a depression then. So he eased monetary policy and helped inflate the housing bubble. Just like in the 20's everyone was happy to be partying but when the hangover caught up with them they looked to the government to bail them out.
The problem is that in 1930's we didn't already have a huge debt, deficit spending on the order that FDR wanted was relatively new. Today we have lived via deficit spending for over 40 years, through both political parties "leadership". We don't really build anything anymore and we rely on the kindness of our enemies to buy our debt.
Let the stimulus begin. The working class is going to be in ever bigger trouble when the powerful winds of inflation hit and they see the value of their labors go up in smoke.
Nemont
I think it is playing out exactly like the great depression and unfortunately the politicians are making all the same mistakes as then.
Go read this text of the bill the House just passed and then come and explain how 2/3's of that money requested is going to stimulate anything.
But the American people were the ones who decided that "housing can never go down". Alan Greenspan, I am sure with GWB begging him, decided that after the Tech bubble burst he wouldn't let there be a depression then. So he eased monetary policy and helped inflate the housing bubble. Just like in the 20's everyone was happy to be partying but when the hangover caught up with them they looked to the government to bail them out.
The problem is that in 1930's we didn't already have a huge debt, deficit spending on the order that FDR wanted was relatively new. Today we have lived via deficit spending for over 40 years, through both political parties "leadership". We don't really build anything anymore and we rely on the kindness of our enemies to buy our debt.
Let the stimulus begin. The working class is going to be in ever bigger trouble when the powerful winds of inflation hit and they see the value of their labors go up in smoke.
Nemont
T
TFinalshot
Guest
sadly nemont, I think youre right. . .
No doubt about it, The only part of the stimulus I think is ok is the infrastructure spending, the reason I don't mind that is because a lot of those things never get done without the government being involved and they can pay dividends later in efficiency.
Look at the photos of Pelosi laughing and grinning because she forced passage of the largest welfare bill in history. Why are we dumping billions into global warming research? Why billions to Africa for birth control? If you look at the spending on this trillion dollar boondoggle it is about 30% stimulus if you include writing checks to people who are so poor they never paid income taxes in the first place. Our leaders are drunk with power and are on a credit card spending spree that will end with a devalued dollar and a depression. People have no idea of how bad things can really get but IMO we are all about to find out.
T
TFinalshot
Guest
where were all the big, nut-draggen loud mouths when Bush was spending us into dark ages? I'm just curious. . .
NeMont
Long Time Member
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-09 AT 10:43AM (MST)[p]
Piper,
If you believe we are the hardest working country then you haven't been to China.
We are not resource rich either because we import the majority of our oil which lubes our entire economy.
It is out of hand not just because of the last administration. Certainly the Bush years have alot of bearing on our current crisis but there is plenty of blame to extend back beyond his administration. If you only want a scapegoat then blame Bush but I would be careful putting my trust in the Democrats to do anything but continue the Bush policy of borrow and spend.
T,
If you go look I stated my disagreements with the Bush spending and monetary policy long ago.
Nemont
Piper,
If you believe we are the hardest working country then you haven't been to China.
We are not resource rich either because we import the majority of our oil which lubes our entire economy.
It is out of hand not just because of the last administration. Certainly the Bush years have alot of bearing on our current crisis but there is plenty of blame to extend back beyond his administration. If you only want a scapegoat then blame Bush but I would be careful putting my trust in the Democrats to do anything but continue the Bush policy of borrow and spend.
T,
If you go look I stated my disagreements with the Bush spending and monetary policy long ago.
Nemont
we are very resource rich, its the new world, and we work hard. The excesses of Bush, and the right wing are the big cause, Clintons bubble was grounded in the computer revolution, In other words it was reality based, he also cut federal spending and worked to make government more effecient, Under Bush High end tax cuts caused greed to fester, vote retaining government spending exploded, a war was started and then grossly mismanaged, military spending increased. I complained about Bushes spending and tax cutting from day one, unlike the Limbaugh crowd who cheered him on for several years
T
TFinalshot
Guest
nemont, you know i'm not talking about you, you almost always lend the most balanced and thoughtful ideas to any issue, you have never wavered. I'm talking about all these tough guys that never said a thing until a black guy with a strange suspicious name got elected to office. . . . now everyone's a fiscal conservative. . . good grief. . .
Bush was a big spender but if you haven't read the facts about the mortgage meltdown then you are an ostrich. It was democrats all the way back to Carter who pushed for high risk loans to people who could not afford them. The republicans dumped in the Graham Enron loophole which allowed both Wall Street and the financial crooks to open up commodities speculation which drained our economy of a few trillion in high oil prices. Both are guilty and it is amazing that our "leaders" on both sides continue to spend like drunks and blame it all on whoever is not in their party. Plenty of guilty investment bankers and politicians that created this perfect storm for the economy. The real question is what is going to help fix it. Certainly not new welfare programs and global warming research.
D
driftersifter
Guest
I meant to get back to you sooner. I mean it all, the government needs to be a leader here and if a lowly clerk doesn't like it they have the freedom to look for employment else where. I'm a teacher and we should take the same 10 percent loss to our wages. We may not end up with a budget surplus but we should we then heading down the right path. Sometimes its the bitter medicine that makes you well. On another board an older person than me said that depressionary times weeds out the weak. Heck, our government pours fertilizar on the weak in hopes that it will grow. Most do not bear any fruit.
Crp is a contract that was written for a period of 10 years and should not be broken but that same Crp haas led many small rural communities broke faster than a Wall Mart.
Mike
Crp is a contract that was written for a period of 10 years and should not be broken but that same Crp haas led many small rural communities broke faster than a Wall Mart.
Mike
NeMont
Long Time Member
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I think where the Rupublicans really got their D!cks in the dirt was the dismantling of the FDR era bank regulations. Rather then just update them to reflect todays world they scrapped them and allowed banks, insurance companies and brokerage houses to merge. The Graham/Enron loophole also needs to be included on this.
Then you couple that with the so called Greenspan put, which meant the hedge fund managers and investment bankers believed that Greenspan would always bail them out. When Greenspan bailed out Long Term Capital Management in 1998 it set the wheels in motion for what eventually became the what we have today with bailing out just about anyone.
The problem is that the market is the only force that can "fix" the economy. My fear is that things will get much worse and Obama will say, "See markets don't work, only government does" and the people will believe him. Even though the markets do work and they need to work in order to even have a chance to restore our economy.
There is going to be a huge dislocation in our economy no matter what happens because this time around the money to be made is going to be made by the people who actually make something, grow something or build something. The paper chasers are not going to be at the top of the food chain. All 26 year old whiz kids on Wall Street driving Maserati's won't be making the money.
That is why I disagree with loans to the auto companies, bailouts of banks, stimulus packages and other market distorting programs. The further distorted the markets become the harder it is to get on the road to recovery. We Americans don't need any more stuff. Whenever you hear somebody say that we have to get American's spending again you should immediately turn off the radio or TV.
This Trillion dollars is going to accomplish nothing of lasting value, even if they build infrastructure with it because it does not address the underlying strutural problems in our economy. Even with this Trillion and previous $4 or $5 trillion our economy has to contract because it was in a bubble. That contraction, even with all the pain, is a good thing because all the excesses built up are wrung out of the system. People are going to lose their jobs and that is bad but it will be far worse if for everybody if we just print money to paper over what ails us.
It really doesn't matter because the train has left the station and with Obama's approval ratings the people think he is the next coming of FDR. I am glad that the last of dollars will be liqidated by next week and the only dollar denominated assets I own is my house and vehicles and the balance in our checking accounts. I am glad there was somebody still dumb enough to buy my dollars.
Nemont
Then you couple that with the so called Greenspan put, which meant the hedge fund managers and investment bankers believed that Greenspan would always bail them out. When Greenspan bailed out Long Term Capital Management in 1998 it set the wheels in motion for what eventually became the what we have today with bailing out just about anyone.
The problem is that the market is the only force that can "fix" the economy. My fear is that things will get much worse and Obama will say, "See markets don't work, only government does" and the people will believe him. Even though the markets do work and they need to work in order to even have a chance to restore our economy.
There is going to be a huge dislocation in our economy no matter what happens because this time around the money to be made is going to be made by the people who actually make something, grow something or build something. The paper chasers are not going to be at the top of the food chain. All 26 year old whiz kids on Wall Street driving Maserati's won't be making the money.
That is why I disagree with loans to the auto companies, bailouts of banks, stimulus packages and other market distorting programs. The further distorted the markets become the harder it is to get on the road to recovery. We Americans don't need any more stuff. Whenever you hear somebody say that we have to get American's spending again you should immediately turn off the radio or TV.
This Trillion dollars is going to accomplish nothing of lasting value, even if they build infrastructure with it because it does not address the underlying strutural problems in our economy. Even with this Trillion and previous $4 or $5 trillion our economy has to contract because it was in a bubble. That contraction, even with all the pain, is a good thing because all the excesses built up are wrung out of the system. People are going to lose their jobs and that is bad but it will be far worse if for everybody if we just print money to paper over what ails us.
It really doesn't matter because the train has left the station and with Obama's approval ratings the people think he is the next coming of FDR. I am glad that the last of dollars will be liqidated by next week and the only dollar denominated assets I own is my house and vehicles and the balance in our checking accounts. I am glad there was somebody still dumb enough to buy my dollars.
Nemont
D
doityourself
Guest
Here's my plan.
Eliminate income tax.
Institute sales tax across the board. From new cars, to eggs, homes, paper, anything we purchase. This way, tax payers, non-tax payers, free loaders, leeches, illegals, citizens, tourists, everyone gets to pay the same amount of tax. I do not believe that because someone makes more they should pay more. BULL$HIT! That is not what our country was built on, and it will only weaken it. Tax the rich to pay for the poor? What's the advantage of being rich then? That only sounds good to poor people who will always be poor, because they are unambitious, lazy, LIBERALS who vote for democrats.
Eliminate welfare. You want something you need to earn it. Just like everybody.
All political leaders work for free. From the President on down. No salaries, no kick backs, no free gas cards, no free company cars, no free travel. You want to be a public leader, show me that you can become successful enough that you don't need me to support you.
Eliminate the I.R.S. instead of screwing with your tax paying public, scutinize the people misusing our tax money. Our government receives billions, if not trillions of dollars every year. The country should be run like we have to run our personal finances. Save X-amount, budget X-amount, invest X-amount, spend X-amount on your debts, and use the rest to run on.
Quit screwing with our rights to bear arms, talk about God, and quit taxing us for making money. That makes absolutely no sense. Tax the interest my hard earned money makes after you tax me for making it in the first place. Get outa here.
Eliminate income tax.
Institute sales tax across the board. From new cars, to eggs, homes, paper, anything we purchase. This way, tax payers, non-tax payers, free loaders, leeches, illegals, citizens, tourists, everyone gets to pay the same amount of tax. I do not believe that because someone makes more they should pay more. BULL$HIT! That is not what our country was built on, and it will only weaken it. Tax the rich to pay for the poor? What's the advantage of being rich then? That only sounds good to poor people who will always be poor, because they are unambitious, lazy, LIBERALS who vote for democrats.
Eliminate welfare. You want something you need to earn it. Just like everybody.
All political leaders work for free. From the President on down. No salaries, no kick backs, no free gas cards, no free company cars, no free travel. You want to be a public leader, show me that you can become successful enough that you don't need me to support you.
Eliminate the I.R.S. instead of screwing with your tax paying public, scutinize the people misusing our tax money. Our government receives billions, if not trillions of dollars every year. The country should be run like we have to run our personal finances. Save X-amount, budget X-amount, invest X-amount, spend X-amount on your debts, and use the rest to run on.
Quit screwing with our rights to bear arms, talk about God, and quit taxing us for making money. That makes absolutely no sense. Tax the interest my hard earned money makes after you tax me for making it in the first place. Get outa here.
H
huntindude
Guest
We have a new dumest post ever.
Sorry 202 you'll have to top doyourself now.
Sorry 202 you'll have to top doyourself now.
D
doityourself
Guest
Hey dude, dumest is spelled dumbest. If you're gonna make dumb comments you might want to spell it correctly.
