Best Possible Solution.

[1FastGambler]

New Mexico Big Game Hunting Rules
Best Possible Solution to Increase Opportunity

1. Draw all 1st choice applicants before allocating tags to any subsequent choices.
2. Mandatory 1 year layoff in lottery draws for all successful applicants. This applies to all species. Applicant may apply for any species not drawn the prior year.
a. Valles Caldera raffle tags and all landowner tags are excluded from the 1 year layoff
b. Youth only hunts with a S hunt code are excluded from the one year layoff
3. All undersubscribed hunts for all species will be sold online after the draw results are available on the department's website on a first come first served basis. The 80/20 resident/nonresident % allocation will apply to all hunt codes sold online.
a. 25% of all left over tags will be allocated to youth only
b. Anyone who can legally hunt may purchase these tags, including hunters who were successful drawing a tag the prior year.
4. Each application must be weapon specific. i.e. ? if 1st choice is for bow, all subsequent choices must be for bow also.
5. All species go to an 80/20 resident/nonresident tag allocation % with no outfitter pool. This includes all tags sold online. Nonresidents may decide if they would like to use an outfitter or not.
6. Set up draw deadline timeframe so that draw results for all species can be posted on the department's website no later than March 1st.


Things that should not be changed:
? True lottery draw - Keep intact
? Game & Fish Commission ? Keep intact
? Youth encouragement hunts ? Keep intact
? No need to purchase license up front ? Keep intact
? Current option to purchase fishing and small game license while applying ? Keep intact


This is what has been presented to our Senators.

"Windage & Elevation Pilgrim, Windage & Elevation"

 

[wvbowhunterinalaska]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-11 AT 08:23PM (MST)[p]I like just about all of those suggestions but I think a page from the Alaska system would help out. Some of the premier hunting areas (close to road system, best trophy quality, etc.) for certain species might be helped by a 4 year waiting period before being allowed to draw again. They can apply for any other units for that species during their waiting period for that particular unit again.
WVBOWAK

 

[billc]

One of the best ideas I have seen yet.Like all that and keeps the youth hunting.That would let non res hunt and keep outfitters in busy as i would say 10 of non res use a guide anyway.I would like to see you res of new mexico get those draw odds for sheep and ibex also.

 

[WapitiBob]

Rather than a straight 1 year wait period I would rather see them remove the application criteria for hd hunts, then establish wait periods for hd and q hunts. That way the s hunts don't get moved to hd status and you can control the app pools on a hunt by hunt basis.

 

[junior]

Sounds good! All you need now is a whole lot of follower! Thats the problem?
I see alot of residents voting 90/10.

Honestly, I would VOTE 90/10 if I was a resident, and couldn't get a tag! Plus your Idea.
Some guys are just unlucky, regardless their draw choice. Take me for instance, I have drawn one tag in my life! I am a non-resident with the better odds mind you, AND I have been trying for 10 years in NM...So yea I see the residents arguement. Man, I would go nuts if I couldn't hunt one year, not alone 3 in a row!

You know what your up against. Good luck man!

 

[wvbowhunterinalaska]

My suggestion for sitting out for 4 years is just for ONE SPECIFIC UNIT for that ONE SPECIFIC SPECIES. You could go hunt for the same species in any other unit in the state. In Alaska if you drew a grizzly tag on Kodiak, you could apply for another grizzly tag on Kodiak as long as you didn't apply for and draw the previous tag you had recieved. Same thing for the Tok Management Area for Dall sheep, you could only draw it once every 4 years, so you could apply and draw the Chugach or Delta Management Dall sheep tags the next year if you are lucky enough. So lets say that you have 20 tags for a particular area for a certain species, and you have only 100 guys apply for it. By the time the first guys that draw that tag are eligible again you have cut the pool by nearly 75% of guys that have drawn those tags after them. Most of the hunters in Alaska seem to like the system. Now there were tags that some guys up there would never see in their lifetime like the Delta buffalo hunt or the Dalton highway moose or grizzly tags.
WVBOWAK

 

[HuntHo]

How could they do an on line sale for leftover tags on a 1st come basis? Their computors can't even hold up when the results come out. Talk about another disaster...YIKES

 

[greatwestern]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-11 AT 11:10PM (MST)[p]"How could they do an on line sale for leftover tags on a 1st come basis? Their computors can't even hold up when the results come out. Talk about another disaster...YIKES"

they've been having web sales for a couple years now...

Sean, this is the best outline you've presented, but must include Bob's amendment

get rid of the HD designation, and only implement a 'time out' period for successful applicants drawing (proven) 'Quality' units

anyway, good work

 

[NMPaul]

Just one little edit. The only thing that creates more "opportunity" is more tags.

Last thing we need in the units I have hunted.

The recommendations above do not create more opportunity, they may improve the odds for premier units by keeping the people willing to hunt lesser units from applying.

They may keep the same people from drawing the premier units year after year just by luck. ( I am okay with this).

If we went to an 80/20 this fight will just happen again next year and the year after.
I think it has to be a minimum of 85/15 res/non res in order to take the steam out of it.

Other than that, not sure how much of a difference all that would make.

The way it is now where you get your 3 choices before going to the next applicant is fine by me.

That means that an under subscribed unit would be someones 4th choice.

I think to many changes in one year will be to confusing. Someone will complain and then they change it the next year like they did the last time they said you could not apply after drawing a HD hunt.

Keep in mind no matter what is done, there will be NO EXTRA HUNTS, THERE WILL BE THE SAME PEOPLE COMPLAINING THAT THEY CANNOT DRAW A UNIT 2 DEER TAG EVERY YEAR, AND THEN THEY WILL BE WANTING SOME OTHER RULES THAT MAY HELP WHAT THEY SEE WOULD BE BENEFICIAL TO THEM, BUT, NOT EVERYONE ELSE.

My thought is change it to 85/15. Give the outfitters 5% which will still get their clients better odds to draw since most will apply without an outfitter and leave everything else in place for now.
See how it shakes out over the next few years and address BIGGER problems like Deer herds, public access, poaching and predators.

 

[kimbersig]

i think that is almost as bad as what they are doing now. now I am in favor of increasing draw odds for residents. the 90% won't really help residents as much as people think. so i think that the 80/20 or 85/15 are good compromises. i do think the quotas should apply to all species including ibex, oryx, and big horn.

I don't like the fact that we have to purchase a hunting license prior to applying for tags.

I do like your idea for 1 year layoff for successful applicants

i don't support youth hunts so i would like to see them cut back to once in a lifetime per hunt. honestly letting kids hunt in the best time of year every year is giving them a false sense of what hunting is really like. i mean why would anyone want to kill their biggest animals and have the best hunts at such an early age.

whats the purpose for having all bow hunts or all rifle hunts? thats dumb.

NM should implement a point system. only makes sense. most other states have point systems.

i think they should double the habitat stamp fee. double the budget for habitat work and it only costs people $5 extra bucks. get better habitat and over time improve quality/quantity therefore increasing licenses and make it easier to draw licenses.

just my 2 cents

 

[NMPaul]

Josh, mentioning a point system in NM could get you lynched.

I am all for youth hunts. They do not all have to be trophy hunts, but, a good mix is the way to go.
NM is doing a good job with youth hunts.

I agree with your point about applying for bow or rifle exclusively. There are many of us that are willing to hunt several types of weapons. Not all bow hunters are purists. Why cater to a tiny percentage of hunters.

anything more than 15% going to Non Res will make this fight re open within a couple years. 15% makes nobody happy, but, will take the edge off the problem. The outfitter % will be the real war. I like 7.5% to nr and nr guided.

And yes, whatever % is determined, it should apply to oryx, ibes, and big horn.

 

[sportsman01]

Here's my 2 cents:

I like options 1, 3 and 6. Needs to happen. Great ideas! I don't agree with restricting your choices to the same weapon, or NR's getting 20%. And definitely, definitely don't want a points system. From what i've seen in AZ regarding their point system, it may take you 10 yrs to get a hunt you want or that's worthwhile. Lottery is fine. Leave it. I don't mind the mandatory 1 yr layoff, but we all saw what happened the last time that came about. Didn't do much but cause a huge uproar.

NR's shouldn't get 20% period. They've been enjoying 22% of our tags for way to long. 10-15% max. I'm good with 12%. I know there are some very vocal NR's on here that don't like that idea...but tough. Move to NM if you think that's too low. In all reality NR's have been spoiled in this state with the tag allotments so a dismal 10-15% seems low compared to what they've been getting. But enough about that.

As far as the weapon restriction...I'm not sure what we'd accomplish by that. Better draw odds for second and third choices maybe...but first choice draw percentage wouldn't change much. I know I have a mixed app for elk and deer...I prefer to bow hunt them, but always throw in a dream rifle hunt as one of my choices...just in case. I think others should have that option as well.

Everything else sounded great. If we could only get the people that call the shots to listen and make some informed and logical decisions!

Good luck in the upcoming draw!

 

[30inchbuck]

NM Paul +1000

Every other year I do not like. Your sat out year from drawing a 3rd choice hunt might be your year to draw the Valle Vidal hunt you been wanting for years.





Outside of a horse is good for the inside of a man.

 

[1FastGambler]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-11 AT 10:19AM (MST)[p]To those that oppose #4:

I too am very profiecent with archery & rifle & have grown accustomed to mixing my deer applications with archery & rifle. I always apply 100% archery for Elk, but that's just my personal preference.

Although I too have grown used to applying this way, the biggest reason for #4 is the fact that way too many people have a revelation while reviewing draw odds and see that either muzzleloader or bow have better odds and then enter one of these weapons as their 2nd and/or 3rd choice (and draw a primitive weapon tag) and since we don't find out what we have drawn until June, there a literally hundreds upon hundreds of people who have never shot a bow or muzzleloader & then they go out and buy one or borrow one just before their hunt starts and to me, this is VERY poor sportsmanship.

If you don't beleive that this is a serious problem, ask a sporting good store how many bows they sell to first timers in July & August to hunters with August & September hunts. ALSO, ask a game warden how many reports they get of people shooting a deer or elk with a rifle during archery & muzzleloader seasons. If these people were true sportsmen & profecient with their primitive weapons, we wouldn't have this issue, other than the poachers that no law or drawing rule can stop.

Because of that, I am more than willing to make the choice between rifle, muzzleloader, or bow on a per species basis.

I hope you all understand why I put this in, and agree with it. I know I can't make everone happy all the time, but the point in all of this is to compromise in order to better serve the majority. I think I've accomplished that & hope you do too.


"Windage & Elevation Pilgrim, Windage & Elevation"

 

[JACOB2006]

Guess none of you guys have been in a bow shop the week before the bow hunts start bunch of rifle hunters buying bows cause they put bow third choice cause odds are better.They have no practice and are what's giving bowhunters a bad name with marginal shots.Or you hear rifle shots during the bow hunts.I have heard them many times.If you had to pick a weapon would put an end to it!!!

 

[30inchbuck]

Would not put an end to rifle shots going off during bow seasons. Happened before and will happen afterward. Mosttimes it is not even being fired at game. Target practice and plinking occurs all over.











Outside of a horse is good for the inside of a man.

 

[nmhntr]

The same goes for people that don't practice with a rifle. In my opinion, if you rifle hunt you should be going to the gun range at least once a month - year round.

 

[MtnMuley]

Sounds like a great solution to me. Let's implement this SOB!

 

[NMPaul]

I watched a "purist" archery guy wound 2 elk each year 2 years in a row.

I cannot accept that argument.

A novice versus a hard core bow guy still have to make that decision to release an arrow.
I do not buy that a guy that calls himself a bowhunter primarily is more ethical with his shots than a guy that that is not primarily a bow hunter.
I know my limitations and I try to stay within them even though I am secondarily a bow hunter.
Something like this does not solve the problem with bowhunters wounding animals, just like you cannot make a rule that will keep rifle hunters from wounding animals.

 

[JACOB2006]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-11 AT 12:25PM (MST)[p]May not stop bowhunters from wounding game and YES i will make that argument when guys are buying bows a week before the season.Guys that buy their equipment a week before it opens don't know their limits!!!!Might have been before that you heard rifle shots too BUT now people are just trying to get a tag so third choice is bow, that would come to an end because they would no longer be able to to put that easy draw third choice!IT would stop a lot of it.PLinking really come on elk are screaming and their plinking guess we could all wear our blinders!!!

 

[billc]

I would think the 1 year wait could be figured out for certain units only.If they can draw another tag then ok but pick some units that would be draw then sit out a year.I would say all of the 16's,13,15,17,34.Leaves alot of units to hunt and there is other animals to hunt to.Really how many guys draw a deer and elk tag all the time.So you draw elk one year then you try to draw deer the next.Should keep people elk and deer hunting almost every year.Would need to pick the deer units to for sitting out.I would like to see the stamp go up and make n more money to grow more animals.We do that then more animals to hunt equals more tags.That is the real answer to fix the problem of drawing.I would like to see 18 to 20% but 15 would be ok if it would stop the fighting.

 

[live4muleys]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-11 AT 01:06PM (MST)[p]I agree, I work hard to be able shot good with every weapon. I spend time with every weapon and I should be able to apply with every weapon.

Like said above I do not buy the riffle hunting during bow because you can apply with other weapons.

Seems like people like most of the stuff, but this part just doesn't make sense.

I also agree that it should only be certain units that have to sit a year.

 

[1FastGambler]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-11 AT 01:29PM (MST)[p]>I watched a "purist" archery guy
>wound 2 elk each year
>2 years in a row.
>
>
>I cannot accept that argument.
>
>A novice versus a hard core
>bow guy still have to
>make that decision to release
>an arrow.
>I do not buy that a
>guy that calls himself a
>bowhunter primarily is more ethical
>with his shots than a
>guy that that is not
>primarily a bow hunter.
>I know my limitations and I
>try to stay within them
>even though I am secondarily
>a bow hunter.
>Something like this does not solve
>the problem with bowhunters wounding
>animals, just like you cannot
>make a rule that will
>keep rifle hunters from wounding
>animals.
_____________________________________________________________

You guys are way off track and have missed the point entirely.

The point is, (the fact is) that hunting with ANY weapon requires practice because shooting anything accurately and consistently takes TIME AND PRACTICE. How on earth can someone who borrowed or bought a bow or a rifle for that matter, a week before his hunt become profecient with it???!!!

This is not about the guy that has put in the time & practiced and made a bad shot. That happens to ALL of us at some point in our hunting career. Now, if you don't think that's true then you better look in the mirror, 'cuz you're only kidding yourself.




"Windage & Elevation Pilgrim, Windage & Elevation"

 

[1FastGambler]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-11 AT 01:52PM (MST)[p]3inch & NMP, really? Do you not see the increase in "opportunity" here?

If you are talking about NM families having the "opportunity" to go hunting more often, you are mistaken. These rules will do exactly that.

Increasing the "opportunity" to hunt in NM can be increased TWO ways. Supply & demand brother... This plan will decrease the demand, plain & simple... AND... Increase the frequency that most families draw draw tags more often before we're all in the mobility impaired pool.

30in, You can't be serious... VV bull tag as 3rd choice last year was 1.7% odds. That's TWO people, TWO people drew it as a 3rd choice, and you expect everyone on here to agree with you for your reason? Really?? Over TWO people? You'll have to come up with a much better reason for tens of thousands of hunters to give a rat's over TWO tags.

"Windage & Elevation Pilgrim, Windage & Elevation"

 

[WapitiBob]

If I were King for a day:

Award all 1st choices, before 2nd choice.
(allows us to figure odds, creates a 2nd choice draw opportunity for under subscribed hunts)

Designate a minimum number of tags per hunt needed to trigger the NR quota.
(eliminates unsold NR tags that currently exist and increases resident tag allotment)

Create 3 hunt types, Standard, Quality, and Premium with no application triggers.
(prevents S hunts from becoming Q hunts because of increased applications)

Designate wait periods, or lack thereof, for each hunt type.
(allows hunters to hunt each year or wait for a higher quality experience, enables the game dept to tweak draw odds on a per hunt basis)

Reduce the LO tag allotment, on a per unit basis, commensurate with the reduction in draw tags, from the year 2000 levels and place those tags in the public draw.
(draw tags have dropped over 30% in the last decade while LO tags have not, this increases tag allotment in the public draw but maintains a LO's opportunity to recoup damage losses)

Create a ratio of LO tags to draw tags, on a per unit basis, by acreage, land conditions and ownership acreage, increasing or decreasing both tag types in unison, so as to maintain the "ratio".
(LO tags are tied to draw tags but also are based on land ownership and conditions. Public and private work in unison for increasing or decreasing the unit's tag allotment)

Set the R/NR ratio somewhere that's easy to remember, 'cause no matter what, there is no "right" number.
80/10/10, 85/5/10. something......
(there is no "right" ratio, just pick a number and move on)

The "outfitter" pool has no residency distinction.
(provides a different opportunity for res/NR and allows any hunter the opportunity to experience what is becoming an extremely popular way to hunt Elk out West, ie; drop camp/bivy camp style hunting yet provides a measure of supervision for less experienced hunters)

 

[1FastGambler]

>If I were King for a
>day:
>
>
>Create 3 hunt types, Standard, Quality,
>and Premium with no application
>triggers.
>(prevents S hunts from becoming Q
>hunts because of increased applications)
>_______________________________________________________________

Just an FYI... "Q" type hunts have nothing to do with how many applicants there are, I think you meant "HD". "HD" hunts can only be dictated/created by nonresident hunters.

"Q" hunts are dictated by the timing of the hunt & the average trophy potential.


>
>Designate wait periods, or lack thereof,
>for each hunt type.
>(allows hunters to hunt each year
>or wait for a higher
>quality experience, enables the game
>dept to tweak draw odds
>on a per hunt basis)
>_______________________________________________________________

That's what the online sale is for.


>
>_____________________________________________________________

You have some good ideas on LO tags.
_______________________________________________________________






"Windage & Elevation Pilgrim, Windage & Elevation"

 

[JustMuleys]

+1 NM Paul.
I think the ONLY change that needs to be implemented, if any, would be #4.
Hopefully the senators wadded that up and threw it in the trash.

 

[WapitiBob]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-11 AT 08:22PM (MST)[p]I was aware of the Q hunts not tied to apps.

In my mind, Online sales doesn't provide a 2nd choice opportunity, it's for left overs.

As evidenced here, it doesn't take a whole lot to come up with little tweaks to the system that can then be discussed.

 

[NMPaul]

>LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-11
>AT 01:29?PM (MST)
>
>>I watched a "purist" archery guy
>>wound 2 elk each year
>>2 years in a row.
>>
>>
>>I cannot accept that argument.
>>
>>A novice versus a hard core
>>bow guy still have to
>>make that decision to release
>>an arrow.
>>I do not buy that a
>>guy that calls himself a
>>bowhunter primarily is more ethical
>>with his shots than a
>>guy that that is not
>>primarily a bow hunter.
>>I know my limitations and I
>>try to stay within them
>>even though I am secondarily
>>a bow hunter.
>>Something like this does not solve
>>the problem with bowhunters wounding
>>animals, just like you cannot
>>make a rule that will
>>keep rifle hunters from wounding
>>animals.
>_____________________________________________________________
>
>You guys are way off track
>and have missed the point
>entirely.
>
>The point is, (the fact is)
>that hunting with ANY weapon
>requires practice because shooting anything
>accurately and consistently takes TIME
>AND PRACTICE. How on earth
>can someone who borrowed or
>bought a bow or a
>rifle for that matter, a
>week before his hunt become
>profecient with it???!!!
>
>This is not about the guy
>that has put in the
>time & practiced and made
>a bad shot. That happens
>to ALL of us at
>some point in our hunting
>career. Now, if you don't
>think that's true then you
>better look in the mirror,
>'cuz you're only kidding yourself.
>
>
>
>
>
>"Windage & Elevation Pilgrim, Windage &
>Elevation"


1fastgambler, I am not saying this is your motivation for having someone only apply for rifle only or archery only, but, I will tell you the majority of those that want this is to better the odds for archery hunts.

Laws do not fix stupid people. Never have and never will. If someone is willing to buy a bow a week before a hunt ( I am sure it happens though rarely) then they are bound to do something stupid with a rifle.

I just disagree with this point is all.

 

[ELKMAN]

I laugh at the bow hunter argument.

There are primitive muzzle hunts for deer. How many people, put that as their third choice etc? Then they go buy one a week before the hunt, if they draw.