BIG Elk

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Neat video. Would not surprise me if the rest of the video is the bull getting up and running off never to be seen gain.
Is that because you are extremely familiar with wounding animals and know a bad shot when you see one? Or, are you just being an a**-hat again? Guess where my bet is???
 
I am very familiar with wounding animals and I know a bad shot when I see them. Believe it or not there are a few people who post here with a massive amount of hunting experience.

TravisHunter, don't be so emotionally invested in an internet video. Merry Christmas.
 
That did kinda look like the dreaded high shoulders hit, shocking the spine temporarily. Hopefully the downward angle as the bullet dropped caught vitals.
 
I've never seen an animal recover from a high shoulder/scapula hit. No animal can't heal from bone particles in the spine.
Keep doing it and you will loose an animal. I've seen it and much more than just once.

The longer the range the higher chance you have of it not being immediately fatal. I'm also not talking about what "heals". I'm talking about what gets recovered. There's a ton of critters that take a bullet run off and never get found but expire.

Did the bullet exit the elk and was a second shot fired?
 
Keep doing it and you will loose an animal. I've seen it and much more than just once.

The longer the range the higher chance you have of it not being immediately fatal. I'm also not talking about what "heals". I'm talking about what gets recovered. There's a ton of critters that take a bullet run off and never get found but expire.

Did the bullet exit the elk and was a second shot fired?
Tristate knows a thing or two about wounding animals and never recovering them. He is the expert in this category. Let us all listen to his wonderful advice and curl up next to the fire as he tells us tales of the early 1900's when he was a young pup with his pappy's 30-30. Crystate is the most ethical hunter there ever was.
 
MM Members Disclosure:

Here at Monster Muleys, we take great pride in our arm chair investigations and go to extreme measures to ensure OUR opinions are correct for the purpose of being individually correct for future bragging rights. All of our critics have doctorate degrees in analyzing videography and content explaining a situation and therefore they they reserve the right to determine the final outcome of said situation even if it is different than the poster or those directly involved in the situation.
 
Travishunter, why are you acting so butthurt over my posts on this thread????

Yes, I have lost animals I shot and wounded before. Yes I have even lost a whitetail deer to a shot placed almost exactly where this elk was shot. Yes I have also seen clients wound and loose animals before. Yes I have seen clients loose animals with shots placed much like this elk shot. I'm not going to sit and bullshine anyone about having a perfect recovery record and never loosing an animal. I am also going to help anyone smart enough to listen to learn from my, and others', mistakes.

This isn't about ethics. Learn how to read and get a thicker skin and a little longer in the tooth and then come back and talk with the men.
 
Be smart guys, listen to tri, dude knows everything!!! I’ve seen him give his opinion about places that he’s never even stepped foot on. ?
 
That did kinda look like the dreaded high shoulders hit, shocking the spine temporarily. Hopefully the downward angle as the bullet dropped caught vitals.
Travishunter, why are you acting so butthurt over my posts on this thread????

Yes, I have lost animals I shot and wounded before. Yes I have even lost a whitetail deer to a shot placed almost exactly where this elk was shot. Yes I have also seen clients wound and loose animals before. Yes I have seen clients loose animals with shots placed much like this elk shot. I'm not going to sit and bullshine anyone about having a perfect recovery record and never loosing an animal. I am also going to help anyone smart enough to listen to learn from my, and others', mistakes.

This isn't about ethics. Learn how to read and get a thicker skin and a little longer in the tooth and then come back and talk with the men.
I've been shooting long range for the last 15 years and have been hunting big game for 40. I've never seen an animal get up after getting hit in the scapula. It's like pithing a frog. There's no walking with bone fragments in the spinal column. Period. They might still be able to breath depending on how far back the hit is but both back legs are done. Permanently. Which is why their back end drops first. If the animal gets up, the scapula wasn't hit.
 
I've been shooting long range for the last 15 years and have been hunting big game for 40. I've never seen an animal get up after getting hit in the scapula. It's like pithing a frog. There's no walking with bone fragments in the spinal column. Period. They might still be able to breath depending on how far back the hit is but both back legs are done. Permanently. Which is why their back end drops first. If the animal gets up, the scapula wasn't hit.


Wow I saw a mule deer walk 2 miles and get killed with a mercy shot the day after it was hit two months ago. It had bone fragments in its spinal column and an arrow. I've seen whitetail get up after a spine shot with bone fragments. I've seen antelope get up after bone fragments in their spine. I've seen a whitetail that had bone and bullet fragments in his brain get up and disappear. I've seen mule deer get up after being shot in the spine. I've seen an eland jump back on his feet after a .375 H&H round hit him square in the neck and knock him flat. I have seen an aoudad ram run up a mountain after a bullet went through both of his scapula.

I've seen so many animals shot high in the scapula and go straight down that when I see it I immediately tell the client shoot him again. AND AGAIN.


SO did the bullet exit and did the person shoot the animal again?
 
It was a conversation about some school trust land some of us we were talking about, you knew all about it except where it was ?
 
Could you provide me a link to that Cooper? I would really like to know what my opinion is on School Trust land?????
 
Super cool to see the heat signature from the spiraling bullet on that video. Looks like both 5ths were broken off. He must have been a brawler during the rut!
 
I’m not looking it up,I just remember how surprised I was hearing your opinion about a place you admitted that you’d never stepped foot on or even knew where it was.
 
Wow I saw a mule deer walk 2 miles and get killed with a mercy shot the day after it was hit two months ago. It had bone fragments in its spinal column and an arrow. I've seen whitetail get up after a spine shot with bone fragments. I've seen antelope get up after bone fragments in their spine. I've seen a whitetail that had bone and bullet fragments in his brain get up and disappear. I've seen mule deer get up after being shot in the spine. I've seen an eland jump back on his feet after a .375 H&H round hit him square in the neck and knock him flat. I have seen an aoudad ram run up a mountain after a bullet went through both of his scapula.

I've seen so many animals shot high in the scapula and go straight down that when I see it I immediately tell the client shoot him again. AND AGAIN.


SO did the bullet exit and did the person shoot the animal again?
I once worked with a guy who said that during WW2 his buddy had his head completly cut off and that he sewed it back on and his buddy was fine afterwards.
 
Wow that’s a great bull. Kind of cool watching the bullet. Even better he recovered it. I’m no rifle hunter so I can’t critique the shot. But it did work. And I’m glad I learned what can happen on that shot.
 
MM Members Disclosure:

Here at Monster Muleys, we take great pride in our arm chair investigations and go to extreme measures to ensure OUR opinions are correct for the purpose of being individually correct for future bragging rights. All of our critics have doctorate degrees in analyzing videography and content explaining a situation and therefore they they reserve the right to determine the final outcome of said situation even if it is different than the poster or those directly involved in the situation.
what he said LOL never truer words have been spoken
 
All BS aside. When you are sitting several hundred yards from an animal watching through a phone scope making cool video of your buddy play target practice at him how do you know the animal has shards of bone in his spinal column? Does your phone scope have some magical x-ray app that tells you????

In your so called 40 years of hunting how many animals have you wounded and lost?

Now you haven't had the fortitude to answer any of my previous questions but I will ask them again.

1. Did the bullet exit the opposite side?
2. Was the bull shot a second time?


Man I sure would like to see the video of the following couple of minutes after that first shot. Any chance you could share that? Maybe show us the film before . Maybe this was the second time he hit the bull.
 
I personally like this shot if they do try to get up you have time to breathe and take another high percentage shot
I have shot a lot of elk with this shot placement and very few have made it to standing
This is a cool bull and a fun video thanks for sharing
 
Why do people feed the troll? The OP posted a cool kill shot, said the bull is in the freezer, who cares what a troll has to say? Especially one that has lived with the mantra of "live and let live" on this forum, even with completely illegal behavior.
 
Yeah who cares if people can watch a video and actually learn something from it. ;) We just want to watch stuff die and vapor trails.
 
I would guess that the shot hit the top of the lungs. Yes, the majority of the blood will remain in the bull as internal bleeding and not hit the ground in great quantity (hole is up high), but the bull died and was recovered. I am no long-distance shooter, but I have to say congrats on a good hit. Just my $0.02
 
Yeah who cares if people can watch a video and actually learn something from it. ;) We just want to watch stuff die and vapor trails.
Tristate, why are you taking this one so personally? ThunderBall posted a video of an elk getting shot and dropping. He said the bulls in the freezer.
It may not be the perfect shot placement, in your opinion, but it worked in this case. I wasn't there, but I doubt the impact spot is exactly where he was aiming. Or, he could have hit it exactly where he was aiming, that's up to the hunter. I've broken a few backs on animals, not intentionally, but none of them got away.
I think it's a cool video, others on this forum seem to enjoy it as well, I say let them have some fun with it.
 
Heywouldya,

I am not taking this personally. I made a simple observation that I would hope would help some people who read or watch these things and I have been attacked for it. If you go back and read the posts you can see this. I'm not looking for sympathy but when I start telling people how the real world works and these other non-hunters get their panties in a twist I realize its time to twist the knife a little and watch them scream.

Notice the OP won't answer a straight question. You don't get to see any real unedited video. The way these boys are acting you would think I spit on elk Jesus.


You want to post cool videos on the internet? Awesome. You want to tell us he is in the freezer? Even better. Just don't be surprised when people with some real hunting experience notice the shots are risky and the video ends with a wounded elk. Because that's a fact. The video ends with one very alive elk.


Cooper, talk all the trash you want. You are a liar.
 
Heywouldya,

I am not taking this personally. I made a simple observation that I would hope would help some people who read or watch these things and I have been attacked for it. If you go back and read the posts you can see this. I'm not looking for sympathy but when I start telling people how the real world works and these other non-hunters get their panties in a twist I realize its time to twist the knife a little and watch them scream.

Notice the OP won't answer a straight question. You don't get to see any real unedited video. The way these boys are acting you would think I spit on elk Jesus.


You want to post cool videos on the internet? Awesome. You want to tell us he is in the freezer? Even better. Just don't be surprised when people with some real hunting experience notice the shots are risky and the video ends with a wounded elk. Because that's a fact. The video ends with one very alive elk.


Cooper, talk all the trash you want. You are a liar.
Yawn?
 
3,000 fps = 1,000 yds per second x 6 or 7 seconds equates to at least a 5,000 yard Chimp shot. Must be a new Monster Muley record at almost 3 miles. Good thing his back legs went out from underneath him as it might have taken a couple hours to get to the downed bull (sarcasm intended).
 
A Modern Day CHIMP Shot!

Only Took The Bullet 6 or 7 Seconds to get there!

Goodness bessy, you’re showing your ancient age! The video was in slo-mo.

I’m not a long range shooter. Never intend to become one. I don’t particularly love the practice. But if an animal dies and is recovered, then it worked as it was supposed to. And for a guy that defends illegal poaching on a consistent basis, tristate sure is upset about a completely legal action with this kill shot. Ironic, for sure!

Relax, snowflake. It’s just a hunting forum. It’s supposed to be fun.
 
"And for a guy that defends illegal poaching on a consistent basis, tristate sure is upset about a completely legal action with this kill shot. Ironic, for sure!"

Daaaaaaaaang Vanilla. You must have been raised by the same parents of Cooper. But I always knew you are a liar. I haven't ever defended poaching on here and that is a fact. Like I have said before if you can go find me a quote where I defended "illegal poaching" I will leave these forums. Last I find it amusing that you call this a "kill shot". Like I stated before and unless you are Stevie Wonder blind you can tell that bull ain't dead.

I care if this took another shot. If it did that means we can do better. We can also reduce the risk of loosing a valuable resource.
 
Hey Thunderball, I can't seem to find the x-ray app for my phone so I can tell my target practice has put bone shards into my target's spine as soon as the bullet hits the target. Can you point me to where I can get that online? Maybe Amazon has it?
 
Hey Thunderball, I can't seem to find the x-ray app for my phone so I can tell my target practice has put bone shards into my target's spine as soon as the bullet hits the target. Can you point me to where I can get that online? Maybe Amazon has it?
Even if you found it, you’d probably spend more time making tik tok videos
 
3,000 fps = 1,000 yds per second x 6 or 7 seconds equates to at least a 5,000 yard Chimp shot. Must be a new Monster Muley record at almost 3 miles. Good thing his back legs went out from underneath him as it might have taken a couple hours to get to the downed bull (sarcasm intended).
Drop a bullet. Thats how long it took to hit the ground way out there unless it was aimed up considerably. Also, your analysis needs to account for deceleration.

Someday I want to see a bull a mile away and lob one out there. Then have my buddy who snuck in on him shoot him about 15 seconds later. (y)

I remember when hunting rags used to give tips on how to sneak up on stuff.
 
Blue hair,
My post was filled with sarcasm but I even put it in parentheses for xtra emphasis. Did you watch the video? Obviously from the video, there was substantial elevation adjustment as verified by the vapor trail (is this what you mean by “aimed up considerably “). In any case, if the shooter was using a caliber capable of 3,000 FPS then the bullet would have hit the elk in approximately 1 second or less out to almost 800 yards.
I don’t understand “Drop a bullet”.
 
Blue hair,
My post was filled with sarcasm but I even put it in parentheses for xtra emphasis. Did you watch the video? Obviously from the video, there was substantial elevation adjustment as verified by the vapor trail (is this what you mean by “aimed up considerably “). In any case, if the shooter was using a caliber capable of 3,000 FPS then the bullet would have hit the elk in approximately 1 second or less out to almost 800 yards.
I don’t understand “Drop a bullet”.
My post was just building on your sarcasm. And no, I didn't watch the video. I've found that facts rarely matter for a good argument.
 
Elk aren't whitetails, moron. They often absorb more than one shot. It's clear you are speaking about things you don't understand, once again.

And you've defended poachers multiple times. Heck, your "BLAAAAAAM" thread was about someone that killed a sheep that was not legal to kill. See ya, it's been nice having you around, but nobody will miss you. We'll see if you're a man of your word or not.
 
The blaaaaaaaam thread was about a sheep that got killed that the UDWR took responsibility for and at no point did I defend "illegal poaching" in that thread. Keep dreaming boy.

They often absorb more than one shot???? Not according to the OP if you hit them like this one.

So you are agreeing with me that the bull could get up and run away after that shot???????? You might want to let these other guys know.
 
I would guess that the shot hit the top of the lungs. Yes, the majority of the blood will remain in the bull as internal bleeding and not hit the ground in great quantity (hole is up high), but the bull died and was recovered. I am no long-distance shooter, but I have to say congrats on a good hit. Just my $0.02
It was a great bull and a great shot.
 
So according to Tristate, we should all tell the OP how the shot was high and the bull probably needed another round in him. According to Tristate the rest of us hunters should all learn how horrible this shot was. How pathetic. Just keep in mind that envious people tend to critique everything about other people.
 
Quit being melodramatic buckbrush.

I am telling yall don't aim to hit in that spot. If you hit that spot and you see your target fall like that send another one as fast as you can. AND MAYBE ANOTHER. Don't admire your shot and the scenery of a large animal dropping in his tracks. Make sure your target is dead and then pat yourself on the back.

Watch that video. I wish the OP would post everything before it and after it. That bull's chin didn't even hit the ground when he fell. Its highly likely the bullet didn't exit the opposite side. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to track a bull elk with a single high placed hole smaller than a dime in one side????? What happens when you do it with a browny in Alaska or a Cape buff in Zimbabwe???? Now your shooting is gambling with men's lives because you want it to look cool on the internet. You ever tracked wounded buffalo or a lion????? You ever done it and you were the trigger man that put all the other men in danger????? Try sleeping with that crap on your conscience.

And I'll finally get down to the nutcutting with yall. If you think TRYING to shoot big game animals in the spine at long distance is ethical hunting you are an absolute irresponsible fool.
 
Quit being melodramatic buckbrush.

I am telling yall don't aim to hit in that spot. If you hit that spot and you see your target fall like that send another one as fast as you can. AND MAYBE ANOTHER. Don't admire your shot and the scenery of a large animal dropping in his tracks. Make sure your target is dead and then pat yourself on the back.

Watch that video. I wish the OP would post everything before it and after it. That bull's chin didn't even hit the ground when he fell. Its highly likely the bullet didn't exit the opposite side. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to track a bull elk with a single high placed hole smaller than a dime in one side????? What happens when you do it with a browny in Alaska or a Cape buff in Zimbabwe???? Now your shooting is gambling with men's lives because you want it to look cool on the internet. You ever tracked wounded buffalo or a lion????? You ever done it and you were the trigger man that put all the other men in danger????? Try sleeping with that crap on your conscience.

And I'll finally get down to the nutcutting with yall. If you think TRYING to shoot big game animals in the spine at long distance is ethical hunting you are an absolute irresponsible fool.
You should write a book about all of your knowledge and experience, you really are your biggest fan, your absolutely amazing
 
Hello Tristate,
Like you, I thought the shot struck a little high in the shoulders.
Whatever!
The OP claimed there were no issues and the bull is in the freezer. I was not there & I have no reason to doubt him. I am happy for him.
However,
I will say that, the longer I hunt, the more times I have seen big game animals "not react as expected"! Some were lost. Some were recovered only after a very long tracking effort. Some required one or more follow up shots, etc.. These were all after "well placed shots". This is especially true with elk, rifle or bow! Often enough, in fact, that it makes me even more determined to get as close as I possibly can for the shot, and I strongly urge anyone I hunt with to do the same.
The fact remains that, when we hit em in the right place, with the right bullet/ arrow choice, they are usually found pretty quick. But there have been times when they just didn't cooperate at all!

Elkchaser
 
I don’t understand “Drop a bullet”.
Assuming a perfectly level, with the ground, barrel and perfectly flat ground a bullet dropped from the height of the barrel will hit the ground at the same time as a bullet fired from the barrel assuming the dropped bullet is released at the same exact time the bullet exits the barrel. This is what he means
 
Thanks for the clarification. Obviously if he would have watched the vapor trail on the video, the barrel certainly wasn’t perfectly level with the ground.
 
Hello Tristate,
Like you, I thought the shot struck a little high in the shoulders.
Whatever!
The OP claimed there were no issues and the bull is in the freezer. I was not there & I have no reason to doubt him. I am happy for him.
However,
I will say that, the longer I hunt, the more times I have seen big game animals "not react as expected"! Some were lost. Some were recovered only after a very long tracking effort. Some required one or more follow up shots, etc.. These were all after "well placed shots". This is especially true with elk, rifle or bow! Often enough, in fact, that it makes me even more determined to get as close as I possibly can for the shot, and I strongly urge anyone I hunt with to do the same.
The fact remains that, when we hit em in the right place, with the right bullet/ arrow choice, they are usually found pretty quick. But there have been times when they just didn't cooperate at all!

Elkchaser
Elkchaser, those are wise words.

I have seen seemingly perfect shots go pear shaped very quickly. Upon recovery sometimes an explanation was discovered and other times they remain inexplicable and perplexing.

I can remember an eland that was shot frontal. I watched in binos and saw the 300 grain .375 hit him perfectly in the chest. That round will normally produce at least 40 inches of penetration through heavy meat. I figured the eland would be dead within 100 meters. We killed him almost 24 hours later. The bullet was perfectly mushroomed and resting against the side of his heart about 18 inches into his chest. I still wonder about that one some times. Along with others.
 
I’m guessing this is the dead bull.

386D9747-D95D-48B6-A911-C8CE42BC32C7.png
 
Try sleeping with that crap on your conscience.

Oh tri, I’m sure there are many things on your conscience that give you trouble sleeping at night. It’s pretty common for small men without integrity struggle with that. We’ll take your word for it.
 
Lol not enough blood to please Tristate! I’ve smacked plenty of animals dead with one shoot and had very little blood.
Did you ever loose an animal? Did you ever loose one that was bleeding a lot?

Vanilla,
Always good to hear a lawyer talk about integrity and conscience. Its kind of like whores talking about being chaste. And thanks again for being on my side and informing these people that elk are tough animals that often require more than one shot.
 
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Try, when you’re having dinner with your lawyer friends discussing what you saw on Monstermuleys that day do you tell them they have the same conscience of a whore?
 
Try, when you’re having dinner with your lawyer friends discussing what you saw on Monstermuleys that day do you tell them they have the same conscience of a whore?

Ha! I remember when he made that dinner up to try and prove me wrong. In other words, he lied. (He’s good at that.) And if we need to recount the incident, I was correct. Conviction entered against that loser poacher, another guy tri defended and is lying he has never defended poaching. We all wish he’d keep his word and go away, but we know he’s a liar.

Yes, elk often require more than one shot. This video may or may not have. It’s irrelevant to the original post. Some people just only celebrate actions when they are illegal and can’t live with the fact that lots of people have success actually following the rules. Is this guide service one that beat out a certain different guide service for this bull or something? I’m trying to figure out why this pretty benign post drew the ire of the troll. It’s usually only defending unethical actions of a specific guide service or poachers (sometimes the same thing) that brings him out like this.
 
Ain't that just like a liar, I mean lawyer.

Hey the Peewee Herman defense quit working after 2nd grade.

You actually believe that if you lie to people enough it will become the truth. Won't happen sister.


Here's the truth. Trying to spine shoot big game at long distance is unethical and irresponsible.
 
Ain't that just like a liar, I mean lawyer.

Hey the Peewee Herman defense quit working after 2nd grade.

You actually believe that if you lie to people enough it will become the truth. Won't happen sister.


Here's the truth. Trying to spine shoot big game at long distance is unethical and irresponsible.
?
 
Here's the truth. Trying to spine shoot big game at long distance is unethical and irresponsible.
ill go way out on limb and say this guy was probably not aiming for the spine. I've killed a few big game animals at long range and the idea is hold high shoulder/center mass and let the bullet do its work. now i don't consider high shoulder the spine but at long range it could still hit high like that based on many variables and still, such as this case, be a very effective shot. again, your always trying to stay withing the highest percentage of success and to me thats holding high shoulder out past 600. rather hit high then blow a front leg off. sure you've seen that right tristate?
 
Well!
Let’s put this thread to bed!

I don’t care what everyone says the real story is on this bull!

(Ya’ll read the MM disclaimer)!

After reviewing the footage, I’ve determined it was a 200 yard archery shot!

look at how high the arrow has to go (out of screen) to lay into that elk! Perfect anchor shot!

You can perform the same shot placement at 20 yards from a tree stand directly above it! Arrow stuck that elk to the ground!

Let’s move onto another topic before we all die from disagreement!!!
 
Here's the truth. Trying to spine shoot big game at long distance is unethical and irresponsible.
You've always been a little loose with the truth. Ethics and irresponsible is certainly subjective. And I don't remember him saying they were aiming for the spine, but I could have missed it in all your ramblings.

I'll tell you what isn't subjective. Killing a giant town buck after the season closes and dragging it out of town to pretend like you killed it legally. Yet you defended it. Another thing that isn't subjective. Killing a ram in a unit that your tag is not good for. Yet you defended it. Bye, Tri. Do what you said you would.
 
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I never defended anyone shooting a town buck. I told yall one person saying he saw it after the season was closed , which by the way ended up being a lie that you ignore, wasn't eye witness evidence of a crime. Nice try boy.

Then the ram which was killed in a unit that you say it wasn't good for but state printed documents and state employees said it was. Don't forget the state took responsibility for it. But then that's just more truth you don't want people to know. I guess thats how the lawyer game works. You ever buried evidence on a defendant in order to secure a conviction Vanilla. You don't need to answer that boy. I already know the answer.

Keep telling lies sister. Maybe you'll be believed one day.
 
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Thanks, it was a great shot and a great bull. The hunter hit exactly where he was aiming.
Here's the quote from the OP saying the shooter is shooting for the spine.

Unlike Vanilla and Cooper I don't just make up garbage and say it. I can actually back up people's junk with their own words.
 
Changing your tune thunderbolt. You were talking about the perfect shot sending "shards of bone" into the spine. Do you remember that. Back when you had the magic phonescope app that x-rays animals far away as soon as they are struck by a bullet.

So have you found anymore video of this target shoot?

By the way no big game animal I ever saw died quickly from a scapula wound.
 
Wow I saw a mule deer walk 2 miles and get killed with a mercy shot the day after it was hit two months ago. It had bone fragments in its spinal column and an arrow. I've seen whitetail get up after a spine shot with bone fragments. I've seen antelope get up after bone fragments in their spine. I've seen a whitetail that had bone and bullet fragments in his brain get up and disappear. I've seen mule deer get up after being shot in the spine. I've seen an eland jump back on his feet after a .375 H&H round hit him square in the neck and knock him flat. I have seen an aoudad ram run up a mountain after a bullet went through both of his scapula.

I've seen so many animals shot high in the scapula and go straight down that when I see it I immediately tell the client shoot him again. AND AGAIN.


SO did the bullet exit and did the person shoot the animal again?
I bet you've seen yeti, chupacabra, and a nun that says F**K..

I've seen pile of animals hit in that same spot, all DRT.

To clarify, everyone has been shot with a berger, amax, or eldm.
 
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