Canadian beef

shotgunjim

Active Member
Messages
970
This has been a hot topic on some waterfowl hunting web sites. For those who don't know, Canadian beef has been banned from entering the U.S. because of MCD. The border was to open on March 7, but that did not happen. Canadian ranchers are really hurting over this. I do not know all the facts on this issue and I may be wrong but the only reason I see the border being closed is so American ranchers can get a premium price for their beef. Thats why I'am paying $10 a lb. for sandwich meat.
I know there are some cattle ranchers that frequent this site and maybe they could give their opinion why it should remain closed or be opened.
There are a lot of Canadians on the waterfowl hunting sites threatening to vandalize Americans vehicles if they see them this fall because of this. I think that is full on cowardly and chicken$hit. When I told those Canadians what I thought of their BS I got banned from the site. No big deal that site is pretty lame anyway.
Just like to hear everyones opinion on this.
 
I don't think anyone should be threatening anyone on any site. It's pretty easy to push the keypad but it's pretty tough to swing your fists.
This problem is not in our hands. Its in the hands of our government. I believe Paul Martin is down at Bush's ranch this week, hopefully this will be resolved along with our lumber trading problems.

We're hunters not politicians.

I eat Canadian beef everyday and I also eat lots of food from the States as well everyday. American hunters bring in a lot of money to our guides and outfitters in Canada and I think this facet of the economy should not be merged with current problems of other trade dealings between the two countries.
 
It is unfortunate that Canadian Ranchers are feeling the pinch of not exporting live cattle to America. I do know though that many American ranchers were hurt by the NAFTA agreement that was signed several years back. The import of Canadian beef (along with many other agricultural products)into America without any tarrifs drove the price of beef down to a point where the smaller ranchers were losing money and barely making a living. With the rising costs of production and reduction in the price of beef many ranchers have gone out of business.

This in turn has reduced the amount of land available to hunters. As the ranchers have been either completely selling their ranches to conservation groups that severely limit or flat do not allow hunting on the property, or they leased the ground out to the highest bidder. Leaving some of the prime hunting ground only available to outfitters(Georgie boy)or rich people who can afford a $10,000+ lease on a couple of sections of ground.

I am not totally against the import of Canadian beef, but I do believe that the imported beef should be tarrifed such that the smaller american ranchers can remain competitive in the market place, and still make a reasonable living. Let them keep their ground have a decent and honest way of life, and allow those of us who can't afford the big $$ to hunt the opportunity to hunt and fish private ground.
 
The problem is one largely of public perception. When the media got hold of the news that mad cow disease, even if it was just one cow, was in the United States prices received by ranchers plummeted. Ranchers want to protect themselves no matter which side of the border they are on.

Personally, as long as the MCD problem is monitored I don't think we should shut out our neighbors to the North. But since public perception, true or false, can kill our buisness we need to be careful.

BeanMan
 
It has been great for us selling U.S. beef. The price that we were getting last year for live weight was great. I dont believe that MCD is as big of a threat to humans as the hippie media is blowing it up to be. I am all for trading beef between us and Canada. It will bring our prices down, but it is better in the long run.
Bird-01.gif
drrsancm.gif




Eric
 
SOMETHING GOT TO HAPPEN!
Beef prices at the consumers level seem unreal!
I look for good prices on beef and costco is the only FAIR
price forget the super markets! I thank God my family likes
eatting what the good Lord is lettimg me have! LOOK AT GAS!
$2.39 a gal and maybe $3. PLUS BY SUMMER!
!@#$%^. Just have to plan trips and vacations better a guess!
I do not know what to thank anymore!
JACK..
 
Eric is exactly right. I am all for the American rancher. I think many of them have been doing much better. However, my dad is employed by a meat packing company that is suffering to to the closure of the border. I think there needs to be a balance. When are choices are limited, so is our buying power IMO.

Woodruffhunter
 
I'm only a small candian farmer but the boarder being closed makes me sick. When it's more profitable to shoot a perfectly fine cow and leave it rot than to truck it to a sales barn something is wrong. If something doesn't change soon There is going to be a lot of farms lost. Just cause we didn't want any part of you "rocket defense thing" is no reason to shut the boarder longer. If mr. "dude where's my weapons?" bush would quit fighting other peoples wars maby the gas prices would go down.
 
It's nice to see some positive feedback on this subject. I was worried this post was going to react an atomic bomb. Everyone hurts when something goes wrong in business between countries. It's sad to see those old cows being shot because it costs more to feed them then it would to keep them over the winter to sell them later.

Blame it on the hippies, and good luck hunting.
 
I'm feeling pretty bad about the border closing as well. The Canadian ranchers are suffering and it's all about politics. The BSE (mad cow) deal is way overblown. I own cattle and do not see why we should close the border. Actually, Canadian beef is coming to the U.S. every day, but it's processed up there.

The whole deal is a bit like CWD - WAY too much hype from the media. Wyoming has some new CWD regs coming out soon, so watch for that as well. Lot's of huters will get fined this year for trying to take their bucks home.

Too many regulations......
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-25-05 AT 10:20AM (MST)[p]Personally, I don't like subsidizing non-competitive industries by paying a higher price for "American made." I used to be a software engineer, but I'm not anymore because my work has been offshored to India. The February 14, 2005 issue of BusinessWeek says that entry level salaries for Indian software engineers in 2004 was $6,628 and for project managers was $31,131. Since my software engineering job went away in 2002 I'm now earning 75% of what I was earning before. Face it, as a nation we largely gave up subsidizing and protecting our industries under Reagan. Why should some industries be sheltered while others suffer? By the way, I'm not saying US beef growers are non-competitive: calls for subsidies or tarrifs, however, imply that US beef growers are non-competitive.

Now, back to the closure of the border problem. If there is a bonafide MCD danger, keep the border closed until the problem is resolved. When the problem is resolved, open the border back up.
 
hotdog, i feel for your situation. However, you shouldn't get on here and start bashing President Bush. most people on this site support what our country is doing in Iraq. whether or not they find any weapons over there, Iraq is much better off today than it was two years ago. it is not my fault that canada doesn't have the balls to stand for anything.

even if they open the borders, BUY AMERICAN!!!!!!
 
Been seeing a lot of good folks suffer due to these trade disputes. Even sheds aren't getting across the border. Doesn't seem to be any logic behind decisions made on both sides of the border. I guess that politicing is more important than keeping people working.
069729.gif
 
There isn't really a good reason to keep the boarder closed. And as for Canadians not standing for anything that kind of low. Just cause we have the sense not to fight wars that have nothing to do with us dosn't mean we don't stand for anything. Bush fights and everyone here pays at the pumps. Bottom line.

I'd sooner see my taxes go to health care and other things that benefit me, my family, and my community, not Iraq. That's why we don't have a war lord army like the states.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-29-05 AT 11:33AM (MST)[p]I am a Canadian Rancher and hunter, The border closing is simply a politial trade barrier set up to protect large American Ranchers and vertically integrated feedlots from live Canadian Cattle. We are NOT subsidized up here, American farmers recieve 2-3 times the govt support we do. We are actually persuing other world markets for our beef, building packing plants here, employing our own people. This will help us in the long run. The result will be massive job losses in the US packing industry, a shift in meat consumption in the US away from beef due to high prices, and loss of market share of US beef. I consider this a good payback for the protectionist BS that has emerged from this overblown incident.

P.s> I will be invoking my landowner privelige to not allow any US nonresident hunting on my land,until the border dispute is over. If US hunters wish to acces our game, then they can voice their support for our industry by lobbying USDA.
 
The US had a cow with mad cow disease and Canada has had several. The one thing that we have to remember is where did they come from. The US cow was traced back to being of Canadian origin. Canada has had cattle with MCD discovered long after the one in the US was discovered. We in the US must protect ourselves since all the cattle in the US and Canada that have had MCD came from Canada.

BattleRiver is correct that the US better watch out, for Canada by building their own slaughter plants will be in a better position to market their beef after this MCD problem is over.

Each person must decide what is best. If closing land to US hunters is their answer to the problem then do what has to be done.

Pappabull
 
And you are content that there has never been a case of made in the US BSE? That slaughter plants have duly reported downer cows to USDA,? that test results were not covered up? that the many cases of salmonella poisoning in Tysons chicken plants and other assorted ills that have befallen US food safety are not a bigger concern than 3 cases of BSE out of a herd of 4 million cows? I think you will then see this issue for the protectionist plot it is.
 
Mad Cow Disease must be a bigger concern since countries all over the world banned US and Canadian beef when it occurred but didn't do so with salmonella problems.
 
Japan has been one of the major Asian users of US beef, and they banned our beef due to that cow imported from canada coming down with MCD. They have been a big importer of beef from California until the shutdown. So this stop of beef from canada is not a B.S. move to stop beef imports from Canada, it ended up hurting our beef suppliers also.
Most of the MCD problems have been in England and Canada, maybe these countries need to clean up their act before blaming the U.S. for their own problems.
Right now Japan is talkin about lifting the ban on beef imports from the U.S., but I did not hear anything about lifting the ban for Canada, that should tell you something about your beef exports and the fear that several countries have about beef from England or canada. There is two sides to the story.

RELH
 
I thought as soon as they lift the ban to the U.S. they have to lift the ban to Canada.
 
In the article I read, local newspaper, they do not mention anything about lifting the ban on beef from Canada, only lifting the ban with U.S. beef because of the steps taken by the U.S. Gov. to prevent any further outbreaks of MCD in U.S. beef. As you know, one of these steps was to stop importation of beef from Canada where the MCD originated in cows from there.
If I hear anything different, I will post it, but for now it appears that the ban may stay in place for beef from Canada, based on the article not mentioning anything about Canadian beef.

RELH
 
The news in Canada today.

Canada plans to impose a 15 per cent surtax on imports of U.S. cigarettes, oysters, live swine and some types of fish starting May 1.


Ottawa said Thursday it is slapping on the duties to retaliate against the United States for its failure to comply with the World Trade Organization ruling on the Byrd Amendment.

The amendment allows U.S. producers to receive anti-dumping and countervailing duties collected by the U.S. government from foreign competitors.

The WTO has ruled the amendment is illegal, and in November 2004, the trade body gave Canada and the other co-complainants the authority to retaliate.

Canada's decision to retaliate came as the European Union took similar action. The EU is planning 15 per cent tariffs on U.S. paper, textiles, machinery and farm produce beginning May 1.

"For the last four years, Canada and a number of other countries have repeatedly urged the United States to repeal the Byrd Amendment," International Trade Minister Jim Peterson said.

"Retaliation is not our preferred option, but it is a necessary action. International trade rules must be respected," Peterson said in a release.
 
besides pamela anderson,shania twain, and syrup,nothing good has come from up there anyway. thank god the hockey season got canceled so i dont have to watch highlights on sportcenter. its been nice. i'm just kidding of course. my family has made some good money selling cows this year so needless to say, i'm in no hurry to see the border open for canadian beef. its been good for us.
 
Let me preface this by saying that I support opening the border to live cattle and ending the soft lumber imports. The American consumers are the one paying for this. The U.S. cattlemen are cutting their own throats for short term gain. ( Believe me, where I live in North Eastern Montana mine view is not popular)

Having said that I think the Canadians are being short sighted also. Canada currently enjoys an annual surplus of trade about $88 Billion a year or $232,800,000 a day in surplus trade. The current economic growth in Canada is financed in a large part by U.S. dollars.

All of this turmoil is politically driven and the American side has made plenty of mistakes however there is plenty of blame to go around in the Canadian Government as well.

As for fighting other people's wars I am not certain what you are talking about. Canada was with us in nearly every conflict since WWII. Sitting out the Iraq war was more a statement of your liberal governments hatred of George W. Bush and love of European liberalism then anything else. Again purely political.

It saddens me to see Canadians and Americans doing things like banning NR hunters and pointing fingers over the issue of the border opening for live cattle. It also bothers me that Canadains think they are getting screwed by the U.S. when the enjoy and have enjoyed HUGE trade surpluses. It is not just one way trade, like alot of Canadain's like portray it, with Washington dictating the rules. I bet if I traveled 60 miles north to border and sat down with a Canadian I bet we agree more on issue then disagree.

Nemont
 
I bet if you came up across the border we wouldn't even talk about cattle, we'd be sippin back some beers. These trade agreements are way out of our hands.
 
Nemont,
Very well said. This is a political issue that our Liberal minded government has dropped the ball on time and again. Just to set the record, all of us Westerners have been trying with all our might to kick out the Liberals but the damn Easterners (who have the majority of the seats) keep voting the "Bloody Theifs" back into power.

What has been stated is true. In both the BSE and the Soft-wood lumber dispute, we have buckled down, become more efficient and we will weather the storm. Sure, in the short term, many Canadian Ranches have gone under and many a mill has closed. But overall we are still surviving. We now have expanded our markets and will be way better off once these issues are resolved. The American people are the ones that will hurt more in the long run due to lost market share and higher costs.
069729.gif
 
BCboy;

I think you are wrong about the American people that will be hurt in the long run if our two countries get into a trade war due to stupid liberal politicians in both countries. Our population, compared to Canada, and our higher wealth per person, says we have more buying power. If the U.S. closes the border to your goods, alot of people in Canada will lose jobs left and right. Even if you shipped your goods to Europe, the higher fees for long distance shipping will stop you from being competive with other countries in Europe who have the same goods for sale.
Canada has enjoyed selling their products in this country for a cheaper price due to the next door shipping costs being low enought with your lower wages. Your cheap lumber ran alot of mills out of business in the area I live in, and put alot of guys with 15-20 years in a mill out of work. I thought we had some stupid liberal Democrats, but it seems that your country may be ran by outright idiots who can not get their head out of the sand. One member mentioned that your liberals are concertrated in the Eastern half of the country, would that be where alot of them are of frog descent and need to go back to France. "I had to get that one in".
But as one member mention, we as the average Joe will have very little to say about it. Let us hope that the powers to be in both countries wake up and smell the coffe, and not the bacon burning.

RELH
 
The longer the border stays closed the more production comes on line in Canada and we relinquish "some" of our dependence to America. Europe is not the place to invest in trade, China is.
Actually, I think we have on average higher wages, but that is really unimportant. America is protecting her intrests just the same as Canada and you really can't fault them for that.
I am not really comfortable with economys built on growth, but thats where I live.
 
1) I sell many products to the US, and have many great relationship's that have grown from these business relations, and I have found most US people to be open and friendly.

2) To say that "by closing the border" canada will loose more jobs than the US is a poor comment, both sides would suffer, we are each other's largest trading partners and it would be a loose/ loose situation. What you are too blind to see is that by this "short term bording closing gain" that all the big US lumber, and big US ranchers are getting now, will be a loss down the road, as we in Canada are getting more refined/efficient with our production techniques. Be clear, the border will open to both these products again someday, and all the protectionism in the world cannot stop that from happening, it would be political suicide.
3) The US should fear China the most, and I think that they do. They have 1 billion more people than you, and are growing at a 6-8% rate per year. You say that the US is the richest per capita nation in the world, on paper that may be true, but it is funny what a low interest rate will do, how many of those people are "leased" to the limit? LOTS! With the large population centers throughout the country facing an overinflated real estate market, and a large segment of your manufacturing that has never spent money on R&D to "improve" techniques, and get more efficient, you cannot keep the rest of the world out forever, you must trade with them fairly, or sanctions will catch up to you.
 
4) As for your comment about Canada shipping to Europe costing too much, it already happens on a daily basis. In case you have not noticed with the price of diesel fuel these days, trucking throughout NA is not cheap. We get quite a few trucks from Southern California to BC, and they are costing the same as a container from China.

5) As for the Frog comment, that is just ignorant.

All this being said, I hope that all our Canadian Liberal morons get their act together and work through these issues with their US partners by sitting down and not leaving the room until it is solved. If the US continues to refuse to listen to the Canadians, and the WTO, then sanctions on our power, and water sold to the US should be implemented, NAFTA was an agreement signed by both parties, you cannot only "apply" the rules that you like as the US is doing. I know that a large part of the problem is the powerful lobby groups for the Lumber and Cattle people in washington, but sooner or later they have to wake up.
 
To answer a lot of myths out there
1: Canada and the UK are totally differrent in the UK there ihave been well over 100000 cases of BSE in Canada we have 3 in one area likely caused by one lot of feed.
2: There will be exporting to the UK, A kill plant is being constructed 20 miles from my house that will sent all beef to germany and employ 3-500 people. May be some of the unemployed loggers could work there?
3 Your US buying power is being financed by your enormous national debt, I bet your net worth as Americans would not look so good if you tagged debt per workingstiff/capita on top. Our province has eliminated debt and had upwards of 25Billion in the bank for a population of 3 million.
4:Canada has the same BSE Risk Staus as the US and any move by Japan to get realistic on beef imports will likely include Canadian Beef.
5: if you are not in the Ag industry, you really have no idea how integrated the NA cattle industry WAS, and how free trade was beneficial to all. Having the increased ability to add value to our beef, then send it south, will only increase our trade surplus with you, and put more workers on the street.
6: As to nothingh good coming out of canada, the seems intersting since there is a steady stream of you heading up north to sit in modified outhouses to shoot a 140 WT to brag to bubba back home.
 
BattleRiver,

I agree with you. In my area Canadian feedlot operators were the biggest buyers of calves for many years. They paid better then the feedlots in the Midwest. The other thing is that the Canadian and U.S. cattle herds are identical genetically. There were millions of head of cattle moving back and forth across the border. Many U.S. herds were made up of Canadian bred cattle and Vice versa.

Free trade is a good thing, it is the life blood of modern economies and the current border disputes only hurt consumers. The U.S. has internal economic problems that need to be addressed and best way to address them is to reduce or eliminate bureaucratic rules and let the markets work. Many will experience some short term pain but in the LONG run all will be better off.


Nemont

P.S. The 21st century will belong to the Chinese.
 
the little trade wars that happen between Canada and the U.S. are small potatoes compared to what China is going to do to both countries in the next 20-30 years. I look for a large number of factories, big and small to relocate there, or contract for finished products from companies in China.
There is no way that we can complete with them for labor cost, and they have access to a labor pool that is very educated and will be able to make quality exports. If they do not design it, they will do a good job of copying it and sell it cheaper then alot of other countries can.
 
Here in BC, what we have lost to the Americans in the softwood lumber dispute pails in comparison to what we are about to gain with both China and India. They want our wood and they are willing to pay for it.
069729.gif
 
Question.
How many recent deaths linked to mad cow.

chirp, chirp, chirp, chirp, chirp.

100% liberal media bullsh*t.
 
BUY AMERICAN!!!!!!!!
I WISH THEY WOULD BAN ALL NON AMERICAN BEEF. I COME FROM A FAMILY THAT HAS BEEN RAISING CATTLE AND SHEEP IN UTAH FOR OVER 100 YEARS AND I DONT CARE WHAT HAPPENS IN CANADAN. WE HAVE HAD HARD TIMES FOR EVER !!!!!!!!!!!!! SO DONT CRY TO ME ABOUT THE PRICE OF ANY OF IT.....
 
BCboy;

I would not chirp too loud about selling your wood to China and India. When old "Mother Russia" gets her act together, they will knock Canada out of the market on supplying wood to China, India, Japan. They have a vast supply of forests and they will undercut the prices that your country or ours could not hope to complete with.
Too bad you do not have the quality hardwoods that we have in my area, one large tree sells for 5-7 thousand dollars each to Japan. They make very thin veneers out of it for wall panels and furniture.
As for the NAFTA comments, alot of Americans were against that treaty because it helped Canada and Mexico alot more then it did us. So I do not think that Canada has too much to yelp about. Heck, alot of Americans may hope that Canada will put tariffs on our exports to there. It will anger everyone to the point we will demand out Gov. to shut down imports from Canada. Then we could get rid of the excess enviromental rules and start back logging our own forests. If it comes to a trade war, Canada will suck hind t!t on it far more then we will.
Maybe the frogs in Quebec will help you to sell your exports to France.

RELH
 
Those large trees you have RELH, what would they be?
Ignoramus Californias Woodass?
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-02-05 AT 10:43AM (MST)[p]I agree with your comment on Mother Russia. I used to work for a forestry development company that was trying get in there. The Russian Maffia was the biggest roadblock. :) Don't know if they have the economic stability to become a major force in the near future though.
As for your comments about logging your own wood again, I doubt you have the landbase for sustainable forestry for your ever increasing supply demands.
Sure, you can grow trees on a 30 year rotation but that is just fiber, no stuctural integrety there.
069729.gif
 
tufferthandug;

It appears that you have very thin skin, and I may have pricked it with a very sharp needle. But your guess to what trees I was talking about, leads me to belive you might have a very thick skull to go with that thin skin.
The answer to your question is not "Ignoramus California woodass" as you erred in guessing. The answer is Juglans Regia, Juglans Californica, and Juglans Nigra. If you have problems unstanding, just reply back and I will give you the layman terms so that you can better understand.

RELH
 
BCboy;

You might be surprised on the amount of timber we have, I know of numerous areas that still have old growth timber and most of the tree farms have been planting for over 30 years for future harvests. I have to agree that we would exhaust the supply if we keep exporting to other countries, but we have enought to substain our own market. we will need to get the rules changed to allow more cutting, heck, the stupid liberals will not allow cutting of trees that had a forest fire. Instead they prefer to let the trees die and fall to rot on the ground.
I have a friend who owns a timber scaling operation and he also went to Russia trying to work out a deal on their lumber. He said the same thing about the Russian Maffia, they want a large cut of the action. I do not think that the Russian Maffia will be such a stumbling block in the near future. The new Russian president is ex-KGB, and the word is that he intends to turn his attention to taking care of the Maffia after he gets his border terrorists in check. He is aware that the Maffia is a big stumbling block on getting in new trade deals with foreign companies, and need to be curtailed for the country's econmical growth.
Hell, we are going to see some big econmical changes in the near future. Some will be good, some will not. Maybe we need to find something else to discuss or argue about. Who has the biggest deer ?

RELH
 
Dave
You tell em, I see I am not needed here. I carried the ball for a while on the 24hourcapfire but you are doing just fine on your own here.
Martin
 
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Calgary/Bill_Kaufmann/2005/04/04/981759.html


R-CALF points finger north while ignoring U.S. failings



By Bill Kaufmann -- Calgary Sun


At the other end of the phone line was public enemy No. 1 to thousands of Canadian beef producers.

Leo McDonnell, the head honcho of much-loathed R-CALF USA was told of the villainous reputation his group's cultivated on both sides of the border, not that he needs a reminder.

"It's interesting how that works," says rancher McDonnell, in a soft Montana drawl from his home in Columbus, Mont.



His group has inspired a Canadian cottage industry churning out middle-fingered bumper stickers telling R-CALF where it can go graze, but McDonnell is unfazed.

Canada and its ranchers are their own worst enemies, he calmly insists, and hypocrites to boot. "What R-Calf is asking for is what every other country asks of countries with BSE," he says, no doubt alluding to Canada's ban on beef from mad cow-tainted Japan.

By attempting to fast-track the opening of the U.S. border to their product, Canadian lobbyists have unwittingly slowed the process, says McDonnell, without a hint of irony.

And with the embargo approaching its third year, McDonnell's definition of fast-tracking is mighty flexible.

R-CALF's so far successful legal ploy to halt Canadian livestock in its hooves really is about the safety gap according to the best science there is, he insists.

"(The Canadians) talk a lot about it, but they never put their facts on the table," says McDonnell, without noting a Harvard study has backed up Canada's scientific position.

Canada's yet to adopt international food safety standards meeting R-CALF's expectations, he says, though he also acknowledges the U.S. hasn't, either.

It tends to undermine his group's central argument, that pristine U.S. herds are threatened by those from Canada.

That millions of Canadian cattle were imported into the U.S. prior to May, 2003 is no big deal, either, says McDonnell.

Canadian herds have been more exposed to riskier European cattle over the years, he argues, while forgetting the brisk North American trade in millions of those same animals.

In February 2004 a letter to the U.S. Department of Agriculture from Republican Tom Davis and Democrat Henry Waxman took to task the efficiency of America's internal surveillance for BSE.

The two politicians questioned why testing is only done on so-called downer animals when the disease could be present in cattle without those symptoms.

The letter received more attention in Japan than in the U.S.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration admitted in 2001 that a third of the nation's 10,000 feedplants were not inspected due to a shortage of personnel.

A USFDA memo predicted any tightening up of the country's regulations would be too late to head off any existing BSE.

All of this can't help but lead to the realization R-CALF are simply protectionists more interested in their own hides than scientific virtue.

Last week, Cuba ended its ban on Canadian livestock. If safety's a red herring, R-CALF can always use that Cuban connection as a reddish incitement to keep the border shut.

It'll be their freedom meat versus Canadian treason beef.

"People resort to name-calling when they're not supported by the facts," responds McDonnell to the protectionist tag.

He's reminded legions of his American cattle brethren raise the same protectionist charge, particularly processors.

A U.S.-based science/consumers' group has issued a report stating commerce, not safety, is behind the R-CALF stand.

American packers are moving their operations north, say Canadian cattle producers, who barely conceal their grim satisfaction when relaying the news.

McDonnell says it's all a ploy to dump "artificially cheap" Canadian beef onto U.S. markets. "They've got quite a little scam going," he says.

Never mind it's R-CALF's own actions that are perpetuating those lower Canadian beef prices and the "scam."

And what about those wily R-CALF members who bought up cattle north of the border after the ban?

A month ago, McDonnell admitted as much, saying, presumably with a straight face, "I don't see anything ironic about it."

Last week, he insisted those purchases were only made prior to May, 2003, apparently having gotten his talking points right.

"It doesn't make sense to buy when things are low," he says, definitely not making much sense with economics 101.

"I know one of our people who lost a quarter of a million dollars on those cattle."

As they'd say down in dry gulch, "cry me a river."
 
I am in the wholesale meat distribution business. I think several things are in play with the Canadian imports to the US. First of all the general public has been misinformed by the media on this whole subject, they made one sick cow look like the entire food chain had been compromised. It is also true that the US cattle ranchers have done pretty well for themselves over the past 2 years. Until the ban my company had a few loads per week coming in from Canada. I think the USDA is afraid to open up the doors because the media would have a hay day if Canada has one more sick cow.
 
Larrbo,
It isn't the USDA that wants to keep the border closed. It is R-CALF that sued the USDA from opening the border on March 7th. The Bush administration and by extension the USDA are both in favor of opening the border.

I am certain politics is the only reason the border remains closed. I support opening the border but the Canadian cattlemen need to keep in mind what happened when there was a couple of cases of blue tongue in the U.S. a few ago. The Canadian Government (and ranchers) acted in much the same way as our government (and ranchers) are acting now. It is a round world what goes around comes around. Ultimately it will be bad for the U.S. ranchers and processors to keep the border closed. It allows marginally operations to remain in business and keeps price artificially high.

BTW Both my family and my wife's family are ranchers and they think I am nuts for wanting to have an open border.

Nemont
 
I hope that they can get this problem worked out and hopefully the President can push congress to allow Canada again to import their beef here. I would prefer to see any beef imports coming from a neighbor country like Canada, instead of McDonalds going down to South America to import all their hamburger. Canada, along with England has done more to support this country then most other countries that we trade with. This is something that we should remember when we have disagreements.
The only thing if the border is reopen, Canada will need to take steps to prevent another CMD, because I also believe the good old Press will make it into a big fiasco that will grind everything to a halt and further hurt relations between the two countries. I would prefer to purchase imports from Canada, even at a higher price, before purchasing anything from France or other countries that has treated us like France has.
France has failed to support our country many times and has even slapped us in the face after we have helped save their butts during two wars. Now you know why I do not like frogs. On the side note, we do have bigger deer then Canada, Ok BCboy, I am waiting for your reply to put me in my place about the big deer.

RELH
 
Unfortunately, I can't help myself from responding to this topic. Until 1999 I ranched with my family in the Sandhills of Nebraska, USA. We ran a 550 head cow/calf operation. It is interesting to hear the Canadian producers tell about the trials they are facing because the border has been closed, because they are almost an exact replica of the trials we faced in the early 1990's when NAFTA was passed and Canadian beef started flowing into the U.S. unrestricted. In a matter of a few years calf prices dropped from an average of over $1.00/lb for 500-600lb calves to less than $.60/lb for the same type of calves.
We had actually moved our operation from Utah to Nebraska in '94, which was the first year of NAFTA. We were hit so hard by the drop in prices that we almost lost everything. Because of this, I don't mock the Canadians for their pain. Anyone who has been through this type of thing finds it hard to hit someone else when they are down. Until you have layed awake night after night for years at a time fearing that you might lose what it took generations of your family to biuld, you really have no business critiquing the emotions involved.
There are alot of factors involved. Although the Canadians have been hit hard, the border as I understand it is still open to processed beef. When U.S. producers were bombarded by NAFTA in '94, not only was the market flooded by live cattle but also by processed beef that hadn't been there before- or at least without restrictions.
One thing I don't understand is where all the Canadian beef went or what the prices were before NAFTA. NAFTA and thus free-trade have only been around since '94; therefore, free-trade has not been the norm for most of American history.
Our family was one of the grass roots supporters of R-CALF. People need to know that R-CALF came into being as a result of NAFTA. It is interesting to hear Canadians blast away at R-CALF, because it was their beef flooding unrestricted into the U.S. for the first time that created R-CALF. The traditional beef organization of U.S. cattlemen was the National Cattlemens Beef Association, but cow/calf producers felt that the NCBA was not protecting their interests. So a few individual ranchers in Montana started R-CALF. The result was the creation of one of the most successful truly grass roots organizations in the last twenty years in the U.S.. With that said, I would have to agree that mad cow disease is 95% hype. There is no doubt that R-CALF is getting all the political clout out of it that they can. But they have done some good things for cow/calf producers in the U.S..
For the last three years I have been finishing a B.S. degree in business. (very little of what I have learned has done much to disprove the old rancher arguement that B.S. stands for something other than increased intelligence) Free-trade is a perfect example of this.
For years we argued with educated people that open borders were hurting cattle prices in the U.S. only to be told that unrestricted imports had positively zero effect on U.S. cattle prices. Forget about whether free trade is right or wrong, we were told flatly that it simply had no impact.
When I left the ranch and decided to go back to college(my brother and mother still run the operation), one thing that I anticipated was gaining some insight on the free-trade issue. Although I did gain some insight, the reality is free-trade theory is fundamentally flawed as applied to modern society. Free-trade theory is based upon pure free market economic theory. Pure free market economic theory is that supply and demand will automatically balance eachother as long as they are not artifically altered by taxation or regualtion. If markets are influenced by taxes and regualation the market is prevented from reaching its full potential because taxes and regulation make costs higher forcing prices higher making it unprofitable to supply the same amount of product as before because those buyers who would have bought the product at the before tax price are no longer able to. The loss of this product is called deadwieght loss.
The problem with free-trade theory is that it is based upon this pure free market theory, but a pure free market is a very rare if not extinct thing. Many people mistakenly believe that the U.S. is a pure free market economy; it isn't. In the very beginning the U.S. probably came as close as any country ever has to being a pure free market economy, but particularly in the last hundred years, the spread of taxation and regulation have greatly increased the gap between a pure free market economy and what the U.S. ecomomy is.
The point is that free-trade theory is based upon the pure free market economic theory, and pure free market economic theory is extinct in practice. The pretended idea is that free trade promotes competition and benefits the consumers. The problem is that each country has different tax laws and reguations creating unequal opportunities which are totally out of the control of producers. It doesn't matter how efficient a company is if they are forced to maintain an OSHA regulation that costs them 30% of their costs and a foreign competitor pays nothing. The only way free-trade creates a truly competitive market is if the countries involved have the exact same tax laws and regulatory requirements.
For those of you educated souls out there who just can't accept the fact that your college professor was full of hot air, all I can say is that I have written two papers on this subject fully expecting to flunk the classes for arguing with the status quo on this subject. In both cases not only did I not flunk, but I was told that this is absolutely correct. Both professors said they have never thought of it that way, but couldn't argue with it. It just goes to show that you can't always just accept something as truth because the educated elite say it is so.
As to U.S. cattle producers being subsidized by the government, the only government assistance that cattle ranchers recieve from the federal government is a little one time drought relief in some areas the last few years. One could argue that grazing on federal lands is a type of subsidy, but in our case we found it more appealing to move to Nebraska and graze private land than to deal with the feds in Utah. The U.S. cattle industry is one of the most unregulated industries in the country, and I sure hope it stays that way. In saying this, I am not implying that U.S. cattlemen don't deal with a lot of regulatory bs that is required of all business in the U.S.- liability insurance, estate taxes, etc..
At heart I'm a free trade, free market guy, but if we are truly interested in getting closer to a free market world, we need to start with deregulation and detaxation. Until we do this, we really have no choice. If we want domestic producers to have a level playing field, we have to protect them from differently regulated countries.
 
Tough call guys. I grew up working on a Mt cattle ranch. I talked to the owners the other day and although they are very happy to finally be compensated in recent times for all the hard work their family has put in over the last 80 years, they also understand that their neighbors to the North are hard working as well and wish them the best.
To say farming and ranching is a "labor of love" is an understatement.
To compare the price of forien fuel with the price of American beef is ludachrist in my opinion.
In all honesty, I must admit I am ignorant when it comes to how our $2.28 p/gallon is divided up. How much ends up overseas and how much ends up in the pockets of the hardworking folks drilling the lines below our Earth.
I DO know that the people that REALLY deserve a little kickback for years and years of hard work tending the American herds are beggining to see it the last couple years. And I am happy to "pay the price" for them.
Bittersweet...
 
Wildman and Bittersweet,

I don't disagree with much of anything either of you have said but there are a couple of issues that then also need to be put on the table.

1. Increased packer concentration and their ongoing expansion of Canadian slaughter plants. In the end packer concentration and the ability of Canada to convert beef on the hoof to boxed beef will have a dramatic negative impact upon the U.S. market.

2. U.S. beef exports will suffer also from the increased kill capacity in Canada. Canada WILL subsidize their beef exports and they will compete agressively for beef exports that used to go to U.S. producers. The Canadians are agressively courting China to provide export beef to them. With increased slaughter capacity and excess animals and a surging demand from China they may be able to get long term contracts that U.S. cattle producers will not be able to get.



The border is not closed because of science, economic benefit, treaty obiligation, a trade dispute or food safety concerns. It is closed because of Judge Cebull's ruling that R-CALF has standing to get an injuction. The USDA and Bush administration are pushing for reopening and had set a March 7th deadline. For us in the northern tier of Montana when the border closed we lost the largest market for our calves.

Alot of critters that were "imported" from Canada were actually born in the US and fed in Canada and then returned. I grew up on a cattle ranch and understand the years of work and all that goes into keeping the banker happy and still trying to hold a place toghether and in no way am I anti Ranching but I am pro opening the border. Just my opinion.

Nemont
 
I have resisted this thread very diligently but I will offer this.

As a US cattle producer I completely empathize with the Canadian ranchers and farmers who are suffering from this border closure. I do not know for sure where I stand on the issue because I am enjoying the higher prices I have been receiving the last two years. However, I live in fear of the day that a BSE cow that was born and raised in the US is found. However to dispel some of the myths people believe regarding how high cattle prices are today I have put together the following.

The following examination is very basic and admittedly probably not totally accurate. I got the figures from various websites that appeared to be credible.

Today?s dollar compared to 1950s dollar is worth about 12.6 cents. In other words a dollar today will only buy about 13% of what it would have in 1950. That is an AVERAGE inflation rate of about 4%. I will use that 4% rate throughout this illustration.

Minimum wage has gone from $1.00/hr in 1960 to $5.15 in 2004. At 4% inflation it should be $5.62 today.

Median family income in 1958 was $5050 per year. In 2002 it was $62,700. At 4% increase per year since 1958 it would be only $27,000.

In 1960 you could buy a 4 wheel drive pickup for maybe $2500? Maybe less. At 4% average inflation that same truck today should cost $14,000 today. What do you pay for a Powerjoke these days?

Average housing price in the US in 1960 was roughly $16,500 while today it is $220,000. At 4% inflation it should be $95,000.

Gasoline prices in 1960 were $0.31. At 4% average inflation it should cost about $1.74. What does it cost today? I paid $2.459 yesterday. By the way Bittersweet, gas prices consist of roughly 14% distribution and marketing costs, 15% refining costs, 27% state and federal taxes and 44% crude oil costs.

Live weight of 700-800 pound steers in 1960 was $0.21 per pound. Applying the same 4% inflation to that figure the same weight cattle should have been worth a little over $1.18 per pound at the end of 2004. The end of 2004 saw prices at about $1.04 per pound which more like 3.7% AVERAGE inflation over the same time period.

Looks to me cattle prices are just about where they ought to be today. Keep in mind this increase to these levels only occurred in the last few years. I remember many years in the last two decades where prices were lower for me than they were in 1970. You may not have seen it in the store. All this happened while everything else was increasing at the above mention rates, hardly ever missing a beat. A pickup today might cost $35,000, a tractor maybe $120,000. Hell, a good cowboy hat will cost a guy upwards of $100 these days. :) So anyone who tells themselves the cattle producer in the US is getting rich because of this border closure is either dreaming or not very well informed. We, as Americans have the least expensive food as a percent of income of all the things we buy.

Also, I agree with Wildman 100%. A voice of reason.

And No, I don't receive any subsidies for raising beef.

I'll get off my soapbox now. Class dismissed.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-06-05 AT 01:59PM (MST)[p]To play devils advocate here.

Your median income figure is skewed because there are so many more dual income households today then there were in 1958.

You cost for housing doesn't include the fact that the average square footage of American homes has more then doubled since 1960.

Your 4 wheel drive cost doesn't include the fact that today vehicles are bigger, more powerful, have gadgets not even dreamed about in 1960 plus then are far more dependable.

Gasoline price comparison is skewed because in 1960 there were only 61,000,000 private autos and now there are 135,000,000 cars on the road. Demand for gas has increased dramatically not to mention the supply has been shrunk and taxes have increased. In addition China and India have driven up demand for crude.

The average size of a ranchers herd has increased since 1960. Ranches are bigger and fewer.

I know that most guys don't get rich and they also work hard on their places. Most who have stayed in business over time are very good businessmen and astute operators but that does not mean the border should remain closed.

There are many rancher in my area who want the border to remain closed yet import cheaper Canadian feed, they don't buy locally. Nearly all of them import cheaper Canadian drugs, they don't buy them from the local pharmacist. Many of them buy cheaper Canadian vehicles, not from the local car lots. When I suggest to them that we should close the border to those imports because they are hurting the local businessman the ranchers suddenly want free trade on those items but the for the border to remain closed to live cattle. So basically they want to buy their items as cheap as possible to maximize the use of their dollars and want the rest of us to pay more for beef by keeping the border closed.

My father in law nearly loses his mind every time I point this out to him. He has a cow calf operation about 14 miles south of the border. He goes up to Canada monthly to purchase all of his supplies and meds to treat his diabetes. Yet talk to him about live cattle trade and it falls of deaf ears. Again I support our cattlemen but do not support a closure of the border solely for political reasons.

R-CALF members trade in live cattle north of the border and sell them for slaughter to be shipped down to U.S. as boxed beef seems a little hypocritical.


Nemont
 
To play the devil's advocate's devil back:

>Your median income figure is skewed
>because there are so many
>more dual income households today
>then there were in 1958.

Why is it that we have more dual income households? Because a. everything costs more than it used to or b. Because we are so spoiled as a nation that we want want want more material things and more money. Everyone wants to retire with a fat 401K. But we are the first ones to complain about the cost of food.

>
>You cost for housing doesn't include
>the fact that the average
>square footage of American homes
>has more then doubled since
>1960.

And it has more than doubled why? See b. above. Yes the square footage of homes has increased dramatically but the cost to build per square foot has also sky-rocketed. Why? May sound redundant but it's because everything else costs more. Equipment, lumber, nails, sheetrock, etc etc etc because it is a. following inflation and b. because the labor to make all these things has risen because of, again, see b. above

>Your 4 wheel drive cost doesn't
>include the fact that today
>vehicles are bigger, more powerful,
>have gadgets not even dreamed
>about in 1960 plus then
>are far more dependable.

A horse today will cost you waaay more than the same horse in 1960 but it is no more dependable nor does it have any more options. Doesn't matter. We are still willing to pay for that 4 wheel drive because we can get our food cheap and, again, see the first b. above. Once again, labor costs have shot through the roof. While my example of the minimum wage may not show it look at the wages of higher end skilled workers.

>
>Gasoline price comparison is skewed because
>in 1960 there were only
>61,000,000 private autos and now
>there are 135,000,000 cars on
>the road. Demand for
>gas has increased dramatically not
>to mention the supply has
>been shrunk and taxes have
>increased. In addition China and
>India have driven up demand
>for crude.

Again we are still willing to pay a relative fortune for our gas because, you guessed it, see the first b. above. There would not be twice as many vehicles on the road nor would they guzzle they gas like they do nor would be taxing ourselves to death if we weren't willing to pay for it. We'd all be driving Metros or Yugos or riding bicycles.

>
>The average size of a ranchers
>herd has increased since 1960.
> Ranches are bigger and
>fewer.
>

Maybe. But I don't see what that has to do with anything. Cows are cows and they don't give a damm who they belong to and neither does the guy throwing them on the grill . He just wants them cheap.

>I know that most guys don't
>get rich and they also
>work hard on their places.

My Dad always told the story of him mentioning to a seasoned cattle buyer that the cattle business was a slow way to get rich. The old boy responded that it was a slow way to make a living, never mind getting rich. It still holds true. The only way I will ever get rich in this business is because my land is appreciating at such a rate that I will not be able to stay in the cow business. Why? See the first b above again. It's because everyone is willing to pay a fortune for a nice piece of land to build that house that is twice the size as it was in 1960 and costs several times per sqaure foot to build. But when the do they will throw chicken on the grill because it's more affordable and that damm farmer that used to live here is rich.

The day may come when most of our beef comes from Brazil, which is the number one nation in the world for numbers of cattle. Do you know where the US ranks? Number three. Behind Australia. I'd be surprised if Canada makes the top five.


> Most who have stayed
>in business over time are
>very good businessmen and astute
>operators but that does not
>mean the border should remain
>closed.

Never said it should. I said I really can't decide where I stand. I do think this will bite us some day.

>
>There are many rancher in my
>area who want the border
>to remain closed yet import
>cheaper Canadian feed, they don't
>buy locally. Nearly all
>of them import cheaper Canadian
>drugs, they don't buy them
>from the local pharmacist.
> Many of them buy
>cheaper Canadian vehicles, not from
>the local car lots.
>When I suggest to them
>that we should close the
>border to those imports because
>they are hurting the local
>businessman the ranchers suddenly want
>free trade on those items
>but the for the border
>to remain closed to live
>cattle. So basically they
>want to buy their items
>as cheap as possible to
>maximize the use of their
>dollars and want the rest
>of us to pay more
>for beef by keeping the
>border closed.


And there are many people in the US who drive Japanese made cars, use European or Japanese made optics, Mexican made this, Taiwan made that, Hong Kong made..., Korean made... everything else. Where are you shoes made? Shirt? Underwear? Motor in your truck? Why do they not buy all American made? Because their dollars go further yet they are the first ones to b!tch about the price of beef in the store and the "rich" ranchers even though the price of beef in the store has less to do with how well the cattle rancher is doing than one might think. Look at historic RETAIL beef prices vs LIVE prices to the rancher over time. Why? The costs of the packers, wholesalers, retailers, freight, etc etc including labor. Labor - hmmmm... see the first b. above again.


>Again
>I support our cattlemen but
>do not support a closure
>of the border solely for
>political reasons.

True. For political reasons. Can't argue that. And so are all tarriffs, trade agreements and/or embargos. Do you support any others? Would you support one that somehow drove the price of gasoline down? Or the price of some other product up if it affected you in a positive way?

You make a lot of good points. I wasn't trying to argue with you or anyone else in particular. Just trying to make a few points. Again, I empathize with the Canadian growers. Again, I believe this will bite us one day.
 
You guys are doing an excellent job with a very difficult subject. You are both well informed and articulate. Thanks for taking the time to point all of this out to the MM team. One other thing comes to mind with respect to all of this. In some of the presentations I make, I point out that in 1910-1914, which was the "golden era" of U.S. agriculture and the time when parity was established, the average U.S. farmer or rancher received 88% of the average dollar spent on food in the U.S. At present, the farmer/rancher receives only about 11 cents of the U.S. food dollar. (And this is not about imports.) The reason is that today, we have much higher costs for processing, distribution, product differentiation, advertising, etc than was the case in 1910. And we also eat out much more often, which also adds cost to the food dollar. More of the money is going to processors, marketers, retailers and restaurants.

This change in the percentage received by the producer has been decreasing linearly for almost 100 years now. If the line continues until about 2025-2030, the percentage received by farmers and ranchers will go to zero. I guess that means that the last farmer/rancher can turn out the light and close the door.

That's when all of our food will be imported and we'll no longer have production ag in the U.S. (Based on the continuing trend. I'm not saying that will happen, just that the projection indicates we are headed that way.)

Wish I could show you a graph. This makes more sense that way, but it is a very important issue.

And this does not include discussion of the fact that the average U.S. citizen spends only 10-12% of their disposable income on food. Other countries in the world spend much more on food, some upward of 80%. I do not have those figures in front of me. But it is safe to say that we are the most well-fed and cheapest fed (percentage-wise) country in the world!!

We've got a lot to be thankful for.

ICMDEER
 
I have watched this with much interest. I am a rancher, who quit and now lease my ranch out. I say open the border, but let's put a country of orgin label on the meat. The U.S. has the safest food in the world.
crow
 
I agree with many of the comments of the ails of agriculture, that are common tpo both sides of the border. Its exactly why we need the free trade of these products to take advantage of the regional nature of the ranching business and employ people in our OWN communities at a decent wage.

I agree that the price at the farm gate is a problem. I can also make the same argument on grain prices, which are depressed by US and EU subsidies. In 1970 my dad purchased land and paid for it 2 years later, I bought it a year ago and will not have it paid for in 20 years.

Country of origin labelling is another situation you as Americans should fear. As globalization of the beef trade increases, and your population dynamics change, Canadian beef as labelled, with referenced to historic ties to europe,clean water, peacekeeping, may end up as having an INCREASE in market share in Europe and even in the US. Be careful what you ask for.

The cattle shortage in the US shows that as your population increases, and more land is taken out of ag for ranchettes/subdivisions, natural areas, your ability to feed your own population will cease, do you want the quality control of Russis, slovak, S Africa, or canada, who have been honest(to our detriment) and freindly trading partners for a long time.

BR
 
Good post BattleRiver. The processing plants are laughing right now. Let the farmer's bicker and collect pennies while they sit back let the money roll in.
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos
Back
Top Bottom