CO DOW thoughts

[mntman]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-14 AT 02:01AM (MST)[p]Here is a link to what they are thinking on the hot topics right now. As for point creep, sounds like they will just leave it as it is. So It will take someone over 100 years to draw a premium elk unit in CO if they start now. Great IDEA! So happy we have a bunch of azzholes in charge

http://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Co...gGameSeasonStructureAlternatives2015-2019.pdf

Why don't they just say even if you draw your 1st choice, you can keep your points if you pay another $50. That way it will take infinite number of points to draw a premium tag here in CO, plus they get more money to go in debt with!

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?

 

[tailchasers]

Seems they are listening and thinking some. Changing the antelope muzzy season is a no brainer that should have been done years ago. The PP banking idea they are rolling around still doesn't sit well with me but they are at least including a cost/penalty if you choose to bank points by using only what you need to draw plus 2-3 points on top. As I see it today this might be a decent deterant and alternative.

Thanks for posting this up.

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway."

 

[ColoradoOak]

>Here is a link to what
>they are thinking on the
>hot topics right now. As
>for point creep, sounds like
>they will just leave it
>as it is. So It
>will take someone over 100
>years to draw a premium
>elk unit in CO if
>they start now. Great IDEA!
>So happy we have a
>bunch of azzholes in charge

What is your solution?

 

[fallguy]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-14 AT 08:59AM (MST)[p]Thanks for the link. I am assuming this is the stuff that was presented at the commission meeting in Alamosa this week? Without being at the meeting, it is kind of hard to gauge which way they are leaning on some of these issues.

On point creep they say, "Staff has not identified a preferred alternative to the current preference point system for allocating limited licenses among hunters." Reading further along makes it hard to figure out if they will just leave it alone or go with point banking. I was happy to see that they are taking the impact of PB on the 0-3 draw units seriously.

I am hoping that the opportunity to take a mountain lion during firearm deer/elk seasons happens. I was also hoping to see 4th season run longer than 5 days - even if for elk only but that isn't on the table.

I think CPW did a nice job of laying out the report and making it easy to follow and understand.

Now that the cards are on the table, emails supporting the proposals you like are in order.

 

[Kayak_to_hunt]

It is interesting that it seems the conciseness among folks in the know at CPW that it will be +3 points needed to draw if we see banking come back. Or we will see the same for the next 5 years.

Wonder who will kick in +3 of what it takes to draw a unit? 96% of hunters hunt in 0-3 point units so it seems the CPW is realizing what a huge impact the 4% would have on the 96% if banking comes back. As of now yea the talk is of changing nothing as per points.

The Sept 2 Archery opening day with no muzzy is a interesting option.

Also it would be cool to have a mtn lion tag during another hunt.

Time will tell.

Thx for the link!

 

[mntman]

>
>>Here is a link to what
>>they are thinking on the
>>hot topics right now. As
>>for point creep, sounds like
>>they will just leave it
>>as it is. So It
>>will take someone over 100
>>years to draw a premium
>>elk unit in CO if
>>they start now. Great IDEA!
>>So happy we have a
>>bunch of azzholes in charge
>
>What is your solution?

buck or bull (either sex too) tag with your name on it via any means equals loss of points. Don't have to change anything else, problem solved, guaranteed!



Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?

 

[mntman]

>It is interesting that it seems
>the conciseness among folks in
>the know at CPW that
>it will be +3 points
>needed to draw if we
>see banking come back.
>Or we will see the
>same for the next 5
>years.
>
>Wonder who will kick in +3
>of what it takes to
>draw a unit? 96%
>of hunters hunt in 0-3
>point units so it seems
>the CPW is realizing what
>a huge impact the 4%
>would have on the 96%
>if banking comes back.
>As of now yea the
>talk is of changing nothing
>as per points.
>
>The Sept 2 Archery opening day
>with no muzzy is a
>interesting option.
>
>Also it would be cool to
>have a mtn lion tag
>during another hunt.
>
>Time will tell.
>
>Thx for the link!
>
>

I hate the idea of point banking but if they use it, glad it isn't only +1. Points needed +5 would be even better.

Would love to have the option of a mountain lion tag during other seasons! Could have filled that tag a couple of times with rifle and bow already Of course if they do offer it, I will never see a lion again while hunting deer/elk...



Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?

 

[diablo]

I wish they would just consider changing to a fairer (IMO) system like NV or UT. Never happen though...

Point creep is a problem in all states. There is little "predictability" in the current CO system - except that without max points, you ain't drawing anytime soon (maybe ever) on any premium unit. The hybrid draw is just a bone thrown to all of us without max.

Thanks for posting.

__________________________________
There are two kinds of people without
beards - boys and women. I am neither.

 

[muleymark]

If they go to the point banking as they describe it, doesn't that mean that every unit will require at least 2 points to draw as first choice?

 

[elks96]

>If they go to the point
>banking as they describe it,
>doesn't that mean that every
>unit will require at least
>2 points to draw as
>first choice?

It will have a huge effect on all the middle tier hunts and a resulting effect on all lower demand hunts. For every hunter who banks they will displace a hunter and force that hunter to either increase points or draw a lesser hunt. Either way it does nothing to solve the problem...

 

[Cohntr62]

As I've said before, I'm happy with the current system as it is predictable and fair, not relying on luck. I'm not in favor of point banking either because as others are saying, it will throw more applicants into the lesser units. Obviously, the root cause of the problem is not enough tags for the number of hunters and without changing that, any plan only moves the problem around. I do think they should increase the allocations on some of these premium units. I hunt in a unit that is relatively easy to draw and there are nice bucks. Sure, your chance of getting a real monster is less, but considering the point creep issue, should we really prioritize a handful of guys getting a chance at that trophy or to provide quality hunting for more people? I say, increase the quotas in some of the premium units.

 

[Alamosa]

I have no gripes about the current system. If there were not some point creep then there would not be any units that require more points than others. I know there are those who feel they may be chasing after a goal they can never obtain.

Drawing a premium unit isn't everything. Generally speaking when I have spent more points on hunts they have been better hunts but there are no guarantees. I know of two different guys who got hunts in those premium units up in the NW corner of the state. They both got decent bulls but if I recall correctly both were 300ish score. They were both experienced hunters who had scouted and hunted hard.

I have 16 antelope points and the more checking I do, the more I find that the points required does not correlate directly with the trophy potential available in a given unit.

 

[muleymark]

>>If they go to the point
>>banking as they describe it,
>>doesn't that mean that every
>>unit will require at least
>>2 points to draw as
>>first choice?
>
>It will have a huge effect
>on all the middle tier
>hunts and a resulting effect
>on all lower demand hunts.
>For every hunter who banks
>they will displace a hunter
>and force that hunter to
>either increase points or draw
>a lesser hunt. Either way
>it does nothing to solve
>the problem...

Right, but the way it is written there is an even more direct effect; you are charged the minimum points needed to draw plus 2-3 points. So even a 0 point unit would then require 2 points to draw. Hunters with zero, one, or two points wouldn't be able to draw any units until they save up enough points. So by trying to protect low demand units from point creep from "bankers" they would be directly increasing the points needed to draw those units.

Unless I'm understanding it wrong, or unless they have a plan to only assess the extra penalty points to people with over a certain number of points banked.

Of course it's all still hypothetical I think.

 

[adamwipp07]

>>>If they go to the point
>>>banking as they describe it,
>>>doesn't that mean that every
>>>unit will require at least
>>>2 points to draw as
>>>first choice?
>>
>>It will have a huge effect
>>on all the middle tier
>>hunts and a resulting effect
>>on all lower demand hunts.
>>For every hunter who banks
>>they will displace a hunter
>>and force that hunter to
>>either increase points or draw
>>a lesser hunt. Either way
>>it does nothing to solve
>>the problem...
>
>Right, but the way it is
>written there is an even
>more direct effect; you are
>charged the minimum points needed
>to draw plus 2-3 points.
> So even a 0
>point unit would then require
>2 points to draw.
>Hunters with zero, one, or
>two points wouldn't be able
>to draw any units until
>they save up enough points.
>So by trying to protect
>low demand units from point
>creep from "bankers" they would
>be directly increasing the points
>needed to draw those units.
>
>
>Unless I'm understanding it wrong, or
>unless they have a plan
>to only assess the extra
>penalty points to people with
>over a certain number of
>points banked.
>
>Of course it's all still hypothetical
>I think.

If a unit only took 1 point to draw and you have 1 point you would draw. If you had 2 or 3 points in same unit and you draw, your points would go to zero. So if you are trying to draw a 1 point unit you would need at least 4 points going into draw to be able to bank any points for next year.

At least this is how I understand it?

 

[mntman]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-14 AT 07:40PM (MST)[p]>
>If a unit only took 1
>point to draw and you
>have 1 point you would
>draw. If you had 2
>or 3 points in same
>unit and you draw, your
>points would go to zero.
> So if you are
>trying to draw a 1
>point unit you would need
>at least 4 points going
>into draw to be able
>to bank any points for
>next year.
>
>At least this is how I
>understand it?

I understand what you are saying but how would they determine if a unit only takes 1 point to draw when you have hundreds if not a thousand or more people applying with a variety of points from 0-18? This sounds like a very confusing and complicated process that people will be screwed out of their points for...

EDIT- wonder if there would be a box that you would have to check saying I am banking points or not? So they would do the entire draw for UNBANKED apps to determine a number of points required then throw in all of the bank point guys?

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?

 

[muleymark]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-14 AT 07:44PM (MST)[p]
>
>If a unit only took 1
>point to draw and you
>have 1 point you would
>draw. If you had 2
>or 3 points in same
>unit and you draw, your
>points would go to zero.
> So if you are
>trying to draw a 1
>point unit you would need
>at least 4 points going
>into draw to be able
>to bank any points for
>next year.
>
>At least this is how I
>understand it?

Okay that makes sense. I think I was just not understanding it correctly

 

[oldmossback]

He is my 2 cents, While I dont know how to stop points creep, I would like to see some things implimented.

Resident youth hunters should have preference over everyone in the 1st draw. Regardless if it is a bull,buck, cow they are applying for. The youth are the future of hunting in colorado. and frankly I dont know any youth that would rather harvest a dow or a cow instead of a buck or bull. If they have the points they should get the tags 1st.

Resident disabled veterans should get the next prefernce in any draw. They fought and gave their lives and bodies for this country, they should be allowed to enjoy it.

Im sure this will piss off someone so let it begin.

 

[elkin]

I agree about the vets, they deserve it! If we were to put kids at the front of the line, hunters with kids will have an in to hunt the best units. I'm okay with that because that means more kids will experience quality hunts as their first hunts and will be more likely to develop the love for hunting many of us have. But that means in the future more people will love to hunt and it would be even harder to draw!!

 

[oldmossback]

What I actually ment is that youth with enough points get preference , meaning if the youth has enough points for a certain unit then they will draw a buck or bull before anyone else.
I did not mean that a youth with no points has preference over those of us with points .

Example.. My kids did not draw this year even tough they did technically have enough points but were beat out by tons of none residents . The resident youth with enough points for the buck or bull tags should come 1st.

As for vets , I have never served in the military but the disabled deserve a break for what they have sacrificed

 

[oldmossback]

My sons are so tired of never getting drawn here in Co that we are now looking at out of state hunts that have better opportunities . That is revenue that Co will be missing out on and I'm sure we are not the only ones. Apparently Co would rather get the cash from the non residents than support there resident tax payers.

 

[Cohntr62]

>My sons are so tired of
>never getting drawn here in
>Co that we are now
>looking at out of state
>hunts that have better opportunities
>. That is revenue that
>Co will be missing out
>on and I'm sure we
>are not the only ones.
>Apparently Co would rather get
>the cash from the non
>residents than support there resident
>tax payers.

If you're tired of never getting drawn, maybe you should look at units that are an easier draw. Residents are given preference in the draw, I think they are guaranteed at least 65% of the tags while NRs are only guaranteed 35%. I've said a number of times on this forum that I think the DPW could increase quotas in many of the premium units and that would go a long way toward reducing point creep without harming the resource. I just don't go along with maximizing trophy quality for a very few and turning everyone else away.

 

[sticksender]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-14-14 AT 03:50PM (MST)[p]Woah, woah, woah!....you're missing a slew of other categories of folks who deserve "first dibs on limited hunts". Just military and youth?....psssh! That list needs expandin' and this is just a start: all federally-protected minority groups, teachers, firefighters, members of the LGBT community, disabled, volunteer employees to any 501c3 corporation, Walmart Greeters, missionaries, workers on unpaid leave, members of the clergy, secretaries & nurses (what with all the crap they take daily), police, single parents, farmers, grocery-store cart jockies, parents of kids on school lunch program, police, college students, struggling models/actresses, renters, Bering Sea crab fishermen....I could go on.

 

[elkin]

Nope. Just kids and Vets. Oh yea and short, fat, bald guys with beards...it's been tough for us.

 

[diablo]

Exactly! The system is screwed up enough, lets not make it worse. Kids don't need a chance at a 375" bull to get hooked on hunting. They need time in the woods with someone who lives and breathes hunting to kindle a fire in them and some success to keep them going. There are numerous CO GMUs where kids and vets can draw a tag and go kill an animal.

The problem is a basic supply and demand issue. There just aren't enough trophy bucks, bulls, rams, etc, for everyone who wants one. The super trophy units (which essentially none of us will draw without being in the max points category right now) are arguably not even worth the wait, when compared to other western states. And...giving additional tags in those areas only makes them less worth the wait (look at what has happened to many trophy bull units in Utah).

A better solution, I think, would be to go to a NV type draw system where you have an exponentially better chance with every point you accrue.

__________________________________
There are two kinds of people without
beards - boys and women. I am neither.

 

[oldmossback]

Hey diablo do you have kids who like to hunt?

 

[diablo]

Yes - I've got an 8 year old who loves it and has been going with me since he was in diapers.

__________________________________
There are two kinds of people without
beards - boys and women. I am neither.

 

[oldmossback]

"Kids don't need a chance at a 375" bull to get hooked on hunting. There are numerous CO GMUs where kids and vets can draw a tag and go kill an animal. "

I never said they had to kill a 375" bull. I said "Get drawn before out of state hunters" You show me a unit in Co where a youth or a vet can get drawn consistantly on a second choice or with no points that is worth a crap and not totally over run with idiots?

Wait till your son is around 15-16 and wants to have a sucessful hunt and has a few points built up which technically is enough for the unit in mind and yet are denied by the DOW because their PP required stats are incorrect. I bet he has a hard time sticking with it.

Is everyone aware how the Preference points required page on the DOW site works?
If it says that a unit takes 1 preference point to draw. that could mean(and often does)That at least 1 person out of say 2000 drew with one point. Realistically your chance of drawing said tag with one point is slim to none. This is just a example and holds true for however many points you may have.

What needs to be generated is a spread sheet (like used to be on this site a few years ago) which allows you to input the number of preference points that you have and it will tell you your percent change of drawing with that many points. That way you can see if it is worth your time to put in for the unit or try somewhere that you have a better chance.

 

[txhunter58]

LAST EDITED ON Jun-17-14 AT 05:25PM (MST)[p]

It is not too difficult to dig through the raw data on a single unit to see just how many people drew at each point level. In other words did 1/1000 people draw with 1 point or did 999/1000 draw. If you don't want to work that hard, this website does all the hard work for you. In fact, it is what you are talking about as it was available free on MM a few years ago. But he charges $25/year now. Well worth it.

https://hunterstrailhead.isecuresites.com/index.php?ID=1&XID=1:0:0:0:0

Even so, the data is always from last year and could change for the next drawing.

If you can't find an OTC unit to take a kid hunting and kill an animal in Colorado, you aren't looking very hard. And you can draw a cow tag with 100% draw with 0 points in lots of areas. I haven't missed an elk season in over 10 years. In the years I don't get a bull tag, I have always drawn a cow tag as a second choice.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[oldmossback]

Txhunter , thanks for the heads up on the $25 fee to still get the data on here I did not know that .
Also yes we are well aware of the cow and doe hunts but by sons are only interested in bulls and bucks.
So what is your success rate in those 10 years of hunting colo?

 

[txhunter58]

Been hunting for elk for over 20 years. In the last 10? 2 bulls and 4 cows. Those are in OTC units. They could bowhunt the same units I hunt with either sex tags every year (I hunt with a muzzleloader). As far as only wanting to hunt bulls/bucks, that has its place, but I have had some of my most fun hunts hunting for cows. Had a 6x6 at 80 yards last year bugling. That is a memory I won't forget. Or the 3 bulls that I called up for my partner (he shot the 3rd one). FYI residents can draw a bull muzzy tag with 0-1 point and youth tags may be even easier.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[diablo]

I feel for you. I have buddies in your shoes.

But...I don't have much sympathy for anyone who doesn't take the time to understand how the system actually works. As, Txhunter says, the info and the data (although things can change from year to year) is there for those who are interested.

I bow and muzzleloader hunt in 6 western states (when I can draw) for antlered (and antlerless) big game. Which usually means I go on 3-5 decent to great hunts every year. There are plenty of opportunities out there for those willing to look around.

__________________________________
There are two kinds of people without
beards - boys and women. I am neither.