Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

Shotgun wrote--Nebo, you do realize there are a lot of endangered species out there besides the Sage Grouse right? Can you name one instance where an endangered species has stopped hunting and or access?
I do realize there are a number of "endangered species" out there. Have you ever heard of the "mosquito minnow" that is still being replanted to help restore it to healthy levels?
"Endangered species" affect hunting. Ever heard of Turkey vultures? Its illegal to shoot them-- its a Federal Crime if you do.
According to my information, the biggest threat to Grouse is habitat problems. One of the given solutions to that is to restrict human trespass on any area that would have nesting or contain Leks. This could include hiking,hunting and use of vehicles or even the grazing of livestock.
The Bald Eagle was once an Endangered Species and along with all raptors, shooting them was made illegal except by Native Americans.
Do not underestimate the power of the Feds to take away your hunting privileges in a particular area because an endangered species is present. You ought to know that the anti's use this very thing in courts to stop hunting.
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

As for the statements I made yesterday comes to show those who feel it is perfectly OK to slam and say things about a group or people what it is like. Thing is those that were good about dishing it out can not take it in return. Like playing football I will tackle you but don't tackle me.
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

Birdman & Muley73---Restoring some pheasant hunting to areas by doing what is commonly called "put n take" is not considered the same as pheasant restoration. Michigan tried what it appears you're doing and after a few year excessive costs for what was gained, and a circus type atmosphere like it appears you are experiencing at least to some extent, led to the shutdown of the program. Our DNR also spent a lot of money trying to actually restore pheasants to some of their historic ranges, even introducing the Sichaun variety that was going to be the savior because they said that variety would readily adapt to the changing habitat. Wrong again and after a number of years and a lot of money down the drain that program was also scrapped. I applaud the efforts of SFW, but I think you'll find out down the road exactly what we found out up here and that is that it just doesn't work to a large enough extent to make it feasible. Good luck though!
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

Are we done measuring appendages??

I appreciate Bird and Nebo having the guts to participate in this thread and others like it.

We can continue to discuss the symptom of the day with SFW and ALL of the other special interest orgs as they pop up. I could go back almost two decades with reasons I'd like to see SFW, specifically, fry but none of this treats the tumor which is the problem.

Until the issue of favoritism within the Division and in the Legislature is dealt with head on we will move from one fiasco to another.

The system is no longer about what is best for wildlife, it is all about what is best for wallets and a huge minority of Utah's hunting community.

Admit it or not.

"WE USED TO HUNT GAME TO
MANAGE, NOW WE MANAGE TO
HUNT"
Finn 2/14/16
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

>As for the statements I made
>yesterday comes to show those
>who feel it is perfectly
>OK to slam and say
>things about a group or
>people what it is like.
> Thing is those that
>were good about dishing it
>out can not take it
>in return. Like playing
>football I will tackle you
>but don't tackle me.

Your dishing "it" out was a bunch of baloney and if you haven't figured that out by now then too bad for you because it certainly just did more to hurt your cause. I can only think of two things that I have suggested that appeared fishy relating to SFW that you finally apparently corrected and I took your word for it, thanked you for it, and then moved on. One was the foreign outfitter business and it was explained that a wealthy donor bought the business and donated it to SFW to try and have more income for the group. I have no idea if that's true, but I took your word on it. The other was the picture of Bair with his Dall Sheep that was theorized to have been taken up there with that outfitter and was possibly a conflict of interest. That was also addressed by yourself and I took your word on it even though I have nothing other than your word. If you can think of anything else, other than possibly my continued comments of what appear to be excessive monies going to Don for consulting fees, please address them and I'll try to clear the air. Thanks!
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

Top, in your state it didn't work. I don't know why, but here, especially in areas where predator control is in place, hens with chick's are showing up. When hens are turned loose they are marked with bright bands making it easier to see if hens are wild or not. Those banded hens last year were showing up with chicks. I personally put out 400 hens last year and have seen success. It is a slow process but with some predator control it is working. We know not an over night turn around. Maybe different predators or what ever. Yes put and take is going on also. It seams to make sportsmen happy. As long as we see positive results we will continue.
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

Birdman-

I openly admit that I have slammed the DWR and the conservation groups, and rightfully so, but my comments are based upon history and facts (usually the DWR's own documents, rules, contracts, and minutes). You still have not pointed out a single statement I made that was not true -- not for lack of effort.

In contrast, you lowered yourself to Tristate's level and made statements and accusations that even you know are not true,and I happily pointed them out for you. Your comments did not hurt me in the least but they made you look childish. Hence, the comments from other posters asking about your involvement with the RAC. Feel free to dish it out to me any time but please base your comments on facts. That type of discussion is much more productive and reflects better upon you. Once again, look at how Nebo handles himself on these threads.

Let me steer you in the right direction. Pick a point from my response to FAQ #12 that you disagree with and offer your opinion to the contrary. For example, you could attempt to argue that the DWR was authorized under its own rule (R657-55-4) to use the formal RFP process to award the contract. I would disagree with that conclusion but at least it would be a more productive discussion.

-Hawkeye-
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-16 AT 03:41PM (MST)[p] Birdman said;
"Take for instance shotgun stating the expo went from three days to four days and that is why numbers jumped. Been four days since the start. What about the person who put the picture of Bair with his dall sheep supposedly given on artic red for him on the board. Never happened. Blurs hunt was in Alaska and he bought it himself and it took him two years to have success."

Birdman, with all the accusations of lying and twisting the truth this is all you can come up with. The Expo being 4 days instead of 3 and John Bair's sheep not being taken on Arctic Red River Outfitters. Between this thread and the Expo tags thread there are over 700 posts and this is all you can come up with?
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

Be patient. He is still looking.

-Hawkeye-
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

APEX, shotgun1 put that on the thread. He was wrong. Are you so lazy you cannot look it up to prove me wrong? I answered the question correctly.
Again you can not look things up to see what is true or false? John Baird hunt took place in Alaska not British Columbia. SFW owns no hunting operations in Alaska. It was also before he was on the wildlife board. You can believe whom ever but for me I would look it up for the correct answer. If there is a question, call him. Maybe you do not want the truth. Seems standard on here.
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

Seems hawk likes to play games. Yes I am still looking trying to find where you are not on rmef payroll. Not having any luck.
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

John Bair went on his own sheep hunt and was not paid for by any group, that I am aware of and he has said that a few times him self. I believe John on that. It was before he was on the board.

But Bird wont find where Hawkeye is on the payroll of RMEF either. Stop wasting your time. Hes not on there.
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

Well then you have not been looking in the right place. Stop by my office anytime. The door is always open. I am more than happy to show you a copy of the agreement.
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

Still haven't found anything to discredit Hawkeye? Wow what a shocker.
All I've read on these threads as of late is people taking jabs at each other instead of showing some facts to prove Hawkeye wrong. Guess I'll just keep waiting.....



Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."

"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."

"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

Birdman, the quote was from your post #289 above I was quoting you! You are stating that those 2 things are wrong, I was not disputing that. I'm asking YOU if that is all the lies you can find in over 700 posts about SFW.
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

Apex,
When did they bring in the 2nd string. Did one of the starters sprain a finger?
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

Muley
Your old man bowed out so I guess you must be the second string. I think I'm 4th or 5th string, there's quite a few of us ticked off at this SFW fiasco. I talked to an SFW board member this afternoon and he said that they are committed to be more open about disclosing where the money goes from the expo tags. I hope that's true and they're not just blowing smoke.
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

That's pretty funny 73!!?

For a bench riding scrub like myself I'll gladly wave this towel.


"WE USED TO HUNT GAME TO
MANAGE, NOW WE MANAGE TO
HUNT"
Finn 2/14/16
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

I'm more of an armchair QB.
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

"(These delays were due to personnel changes and the complexity of the issue.)"

I have several questions.

First, were those personnel changes unexpected or were they known ahead of time? Who was replaced and why would that/those changes have caused delays?

Second, what specific issue is the DWR addressing and why is it so much more complex than in the previous contract as to cause a delay?

The answer reminds me of an answer we often hear when someone is late or misses an appointment. "Sorry, but something came up!"
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

This one is funny too. Yall are acting like government not communicating well and moving at untimely speeds is some kind of shady conspiracy. THAT'S WHAT THEY DO. Is this the first time you have had the government screw around and not get the job done? Really?

Do you know what's ironic about this. Yall don't want to pay a contractor to do a job for the DWR of tag distribution but then yall are amazed the DWR isn't very good at doing jobs. I wish yall could see how hard I am laughing right now.
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

FAQ #13 ? Q13: Did this delay cause confusion for any potential bidders?
Yes. Although the DWR openly referenced its plan to issue the RFP, one organization was unaware of that statement and submitted a proposal directly to the DWR. That proposal was from Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation (RMEF), and it was delivered on Sept. 1, 2015. Because the proposal was submitted outside the RFP process, the DWR encouraged RMEF to resubmit a proposal when the RFP was open. RMEF later submitted a proposal in accordance with the terms of the RFP.

RESPONSE:


In FAQ #13, the DWR misstates what actually occurred and attempts to blame RMEF for following the DWR?s own Administrative Rule. This is complete nonsense and ignores the binding effect of the DWR?s Administrative Rules and the history of the DWR?s own actions.

In the two sentences of FAQ #13, the DWR states that ?Although the DWR openly referenced its plan to issue the RFP, one organization was unaware of that statement and submitted a proposal directly to the DWR. That proposal was from Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation (RMEF), and it was delivered on Sept. 1, 2015.? The DWR is correct that on the afternoon of September 1, 2015, RMEF hand-delivered to the DWR its application for the upcoming 5-Year Expo Tag Contract. See Initial RMEF Proposal - https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwhBsR2dj01Gc0M2a3lIUV9VRlE. In preparing its application, RMEF carefully followed the DWR?s application requirements, including the September 1st deadline, set forth in the DWR?s own Administrative Rule. See R657-55-4(3) - http://wildlife.utah.gov/rules-regulations/981-r657-55--wildlife-convention-permits.html. Remember, this is the same rule that the DWR had previously used to award the two prior 5-year contracts to MDF and SFW, and the same rule that was just recently amended by the DWR in January 2015.

The DWR is still clinging to its position that although it ?openly referenced its plan to issue the RFP,? but RMEF was ?somehow unaware of that statement.? As explained in my response to FAQ #12 above, the DWR is referring to the fact that Kenny Johnson mentioned that change during the August 27, 2015 Wildlife Board Meeting while presenting on another topic. As explained before, that statement by Mr. Johnson occurred roughly 7 months after the Wildlife Board adopted the current version of the rule (that does not even mention an RFP), 27 days after the application period opened pursuant to R657-55-4(3), and 4 days before the deadline to submit applications pursuant to R657-55-4(3). More importantly there was nothing on the agenda for the August 2015 Wildlife Board Meeting to suggest that the DWR was going to announce a monumental change the Expo Tag program. Is this how the DWR conducts its business? It does not have to follow its own rules? It does not have to amend its rules to reflect significant changes to programs? It does not have to provide notice to the public of those changes? It is pathetic and embarrassing for the DWR to attempt to blame RMEF for submitting an application pursuant to the terms of the DWR?s own Administrative Rules.

The next sentence of the FAQ #13 states: ?Because the proposal was submitted outside the RFP process, the DWR encouraged RMEF to resubmit a proposal when the RFP was open.? Just to be clear, RMEF?s proposal was not submitted outside the ?RFP process? because the ?RFP process? did not even exist as of September 1, 2015, when RMEF submitted its initial application. The DWR did not even issue its RFP until October 8, 2015, and there is nothing in the Expo Tag Rule requiring or even referencing a formal RFP. Therefore, the DWR should have followed the information application process set forth in R657-55-4, which is the same process that the DWR relied upon to award the two prior Expo Tag contracts.

I also take issue with the statement from the DWR that it ?encouraged RMEF to resubmit a proposal when the RFP was open.? The DWR makes it sound as if when it received RMEF?s proposal it merely contacted RMEF, apologized for the confusion about the move to the formal RFP, and encouraged them to resubmit when the formal RFP was open. That is not what happened here. After receiving RMEF?s initial proposal on September 1st, one week later the Director for the DWR sent a letter to RMEF informing them that their proposal was deficient and failed to comply with the requirements of the DWR?s administrative rules. But fortunately, RMEF would have an opportunity to ?correct? that deficiency during the upcoming formal RFP process. Specifically, the letter states as follows:

?This RFP process will offer RMEF an opportunity to correct and elaborate on certain aspects of your original proposal that would have disqualified RMEF in the initial submission. More specifically, from the application, it appears that RMEF is the only conservation organization that would be involved in the exposition. Although the rule frequently speaks of conservation organizations in the singular, R657-55-2(2)(c) defines ?wildlife exposition? as a multi-day event held within the state of Utah that is sponsored by multiple conservation organizations as their national or regional convention or event that is open to the general public and designed to draw national attendance of more than 10,000 individuals.? (Emphasis added). Partnerships are critical to preserving our hunting heritage and reaching a broader audience with our wildlife message. As such, the involvement of two or more conservation organizations is a regulatory condition to awarding the exposition contract. This is not a new requirement or concept, and in fact this was an underlying theme of this permit program when it was initially created in 2005.?

See 9/8/2015 Letter from Sheehan to Allen - https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwhBsR2dj01GLWVwaFVIQWpNZFE.

Now, I have to state that both RMEF and I were completed shocked when we received this letter from the DWR. We had carefully complied with the requirements set forth in the DWR?s own rule and we were dumbfounded by the suggestion that the DWR was now moving to a formal RFP process in violation of its own rule and the suggestion that RMEF?s proposal failed to meet the requirements of the DWR?s rule.

The irony of the DWR?s attempt to ?CYA? by pointing to an alleged deficiency in RMEF?s proposal is that the DWR had actually removed the requirement that the Expo be hosted by ?multiple conservation organizations? as part of the rule amendments that were presented during the December 2014 RAC meetings and the January 2015 Wildlife Board Meeting. Surprisingly, the DWR did not know about its own rule changes and relied upon language that it deleted from its own rule in an effort to try to disqualify RMEF?s proposal. Fortunately, I had attended the Central RAC meeting and the January 2015 Wildlife Board meeting so that I would be aware of any such changes. As a result, I understood that the DWR had removed the requirement that the Expo be sponsored by ?multiple conservation organizations? and replaced it with language stating that the Expo must be sponsored by ?one or more wildlife conservation organizations.? See R657-55-2(2)(c). Once again, this underscores the importance of making changes to the Expo Tag program through the formal rule making/amendment process and public meetings.

Determined to get to the bottom of the situation, I immediately contacted the lawyer for the DWR. When I asked him about the alleged deficiency in the RMEF proposal, he reiterated what was stated in the Director?s letter and told me how important the ?multiple conservation organizations? requirement was because it promoted partnerships, attracted a broader audience and was in fact a regulatory condition for the Expo Tags from the beginning. When I explained to him that the DWR had deleted that requirement as part of the recent rule amendments, he asked me how I knew that to be the case. I responded by saying that I knew about the amendment because I attended the public meetings and I was looking at a redline copy of the rule amendments presented by the DWR and adopted by the Wildlife Board. See DWR?s Redline Version of R657-55 (attached to email) - https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwhBsR2dj01GU19XQTlnVWxRMzA. The DWR?s lawyer said he would look into the issue and be in touch.

Three days later, the Director of the DWR sent a second letter to RMEF correcting his prior misstatements about the ?multiple conservation organizations,? acknowledging the mistake by the DWR, and conceding that RMEF could apply for the Expo Tag contract on its own. However, the DWR confirmed that it still intended to move forward with the formal RFP process. The relevant portions of the Director?s second letter provide as follows:

?I am writing to correct a statement made in the letter that I sent you earlier this week concerning the expo rule requiring eligible applicants to consist of two or more conservation organizations. Yesterday, it was brought to my attention that the proposed amendments to the exposition rule provided to our regional advisory councils and the Wildlife Board last winter modified, among other things, the definition of ?wildlife exposition.? The proposed amendment eliminated the multiple conservation organization requirement, allowing one or more conservation organizations to participate.

Yesterday, we learned that the Division inadvertently provided the Division of Administrative Rules an earlier draft of the expo rule amendments that did not modify the multiple conservation organization requirement in the definition of ?wildlife exposition.? We plan to correct this oversight by immediately refilling the appropriate rule with the Division of Administrative Rules.

What this means for RMEF is that it may alone respond to the upcoming RFP and proceed without a cooperating conservation organization. I apologize for the confusion and thank you for your patience. Should you have any questions, please feel free to contact me personally.?

See 9/8/2015 Letter from Sheehan to Allen - https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwhBsR2dj01GbGtablcxNjR4Q2s.

Had I not reached out to the DWR and informed them of their mistake, they would not have even known that they filed the wrong version of the rule with the Division of Administrative Services. And they almost certainly would have maintained that RMEF?s initial application was disqualified for failing to meet an ?important regulatory condition? and they likely would have continued to enforce the ?multiple organization? requirement on RMEF even though it no longer existed. I understand that everyone makes mistakes from time to time. But for the DWR to make a complete mess out of this process and then attempt to blame RMEF is unacceptable.

In conclusion, the DWR?s FAQ #13 is inaccurate, self-serving and unfairly blames RMEF for the DWR?s repeated mistakes and refusal to follow their own Administrative Rules. RMEF submitted a proposal to the DWR that met all of the requirements of the DWR?s rules. Any confusion on the part of RMEF was not the result of the fact that RMEF was ?unaware? of some ?statement? by the DWR that it wanted to used a formal RFP process. Rather, the confusion was the direct result of the fact that RMEF followed the DWR?s Administrative Rules by the DWR chose to use an alternative process that conflicted with its own rules. Moreover, when the DWR received RMEF?s 9/1/2015 proposal, it did not politely contact RMEF and encourage RMEF to resubmit a proposal in response to the not yet release RFP. Rather, the DWR sent RMEF a ?gotcha letter? stating that RMEF failed to meet one of the fundamental ?regulatory requirements? of the Expo Tag rule and as a result RMEF?s proposal would be disqualified. But the ?good news? was that RMEF could correct that deficiency as part of the upcoming RFP process. I believe that the DWR had an ?oh sh!t? moment when it received RMEF?s proposal and attempted to rely on a requirement in the rule that no longer existed in an attempt to cover its tail and force RMEF into the formal RFP process. The irony of the situation is the DWR was not even aware of the fact that it deleted the requirement 8 months earlier.

I would also point out this the DWR has demonstrated a pattern of sloppiness and carelessness when it comes to the rule making/amendment process. Consider the following: First, the DWR struck the ?multiple conservation organization? requirement from the Expo Tag rule but somehow was unaware of that change 8 months later when it was lecturing RMEF on the importance of that critical ?regulatory condition.? Second, after the DWR removed the ?multiple conservation organization? from See R657-55-2(2)(c), it apparently filed the wrong version of the amended rule with the Division of Administrative Rules (which then published the incorrect version), forcing the DWR to go back and republish the correct version. Third, when the DWR presented all of the other changes to the Expo Tag rule during the December 2014 RAC Meetings and the January 2015 Wildlife Board Meeting, it did not bother to amend R657-55-4 to include the most significant change of all ? the planned move to a formal RFP process. And finally, when the DWR formally notified RMEF of its intention to use the formal RFP process after receiving its 9/1/2015 proposal, and we expressed our concerns that the DWR could not move to a formal RFP without violating R657-55-4, the DWR elected to press forward with the formal RFP process without taking the time to amend its rule to allow it to do so.

I wonder how the DWR would react if we as the public decided that we did not need to follow the DWR?s rules? What would the consequences be for us?

-Hawkeye-
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

WOW!!! Proof is in the pudding there, isnt it! So I guess, like Hawkeye says, "if they dont follow their own rules, how do they expect us"? I agree, I guess I can buy an any bull tag and hunt San Juan? O even better, Ill get an archery tag and hunt the Henreys. Which rules do they plan to follow this time?

Id love to see the DWR respond to this, but we all know they wont. I think they need to find a new director and a new lawyer. Someone who has the balls to say "guess what, WE SCREWED UP. Lets fix this the 'RIGHT WAY'".
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

The last three FAQs discussed and the conduct of the DWR is inexcusable. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if I treated one of my private client's like this or represented them in the same manner as the DWR has represented the public, I would be fired. The DWR should really be EMBARRASSED!!
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

That doesn't sound to me like a blame game at all. Just looked like simple straight answers. I feel no different about RMEF of the DWR after reading it. Would it have been better if the DWR told RMEF they couldn't alter their proposal?
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

>This one is funny too.
>Yall are acting like government
>not communicating well and moving
>at untimely speeds is some
>kind of shady conspiracy.
>THAT'S WHAT THEY DO.
>Is this the first time
>you have had the government
>screw around and not get
>the job done? Really?
>
>
>Do you know what's ironic about
>this. Yall don't want
>to pay a contractor to
>do a job for the
>DWR of tag distribution but
>then yall are amazed the
>DWR isn't very good at
>doing jobs. I wish
>yall could see how hard
>I am laughing right now.
>

I'm glad you're having a good laugh. Did it also happen when you were raising your own children and you allowed them to continue doing something foolish or counterproductive simply because THAT'S WHAT THEY DID? It probably wasn't so funny then. Or was it?

Is it a shady conspiracy? Beats me, but it has all the earmarks and that's why I posed the questions. The answers, which we'll probably never hear, could clear that up. More importantly, those answers could improve performance if they were accepted and acted upon internally.

When you say "yall" are you really saying "you" which means me or are you saying "you all" meaning anyone who disagrees with you? It makes a difference because I can only speak for myself and I have never said we shouldn't allow conservation groups the opportunity to market tags. I side with Hawkeye on the Expo financial audit issue and the flawed RFP issue, but I go even further with a request for the percentages of 30% DWR funds and 70% SFW funds being reversed. Thirty percent (or should I write Percent thirty?) is a reasonable commission to pay for the service.

And what amazes me is that the DWR was somehow able to clearly convey the delay/new RFP process information to SFW prior to the first deadline, but not to the RMEF even though they were both at the same meetings. And what further amazes me is that SFW learned about RMEF's application in time to make several unfavorable RMEF remarks/charts in their proposal. (RMEF apparently felt they didn't have to do the same to SFW in order to win the contract.) And DWR's generic excuses in their FAQ for the delays didn't help their case either. They seem to be willing to give details about their efforts to convey the delay/new RFP information to all "interested" parties (as if they knew who all the possible interested parties were), but haven't yet offered any details about the delays themselves.

Oh well, I guess we'll never get answers to all our questions 'cause THAT'S WHAT THEY DO.

Well, on to more "whining".
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

>That doesn't sound to me like
>a blame game at all.
> Just looked like simple
>straight answers. I feel
>no different about RMEF of
>the DWR after reading it.
> Would it have been
>better if the DWR told
>RMEF they couldn't alter their
>proposal?


It sure would have been better IF the DWR followed their own rules in effect the day the bid was submitted! RMEF was the only organization that made a bid within the time frame required in the Administrative Rule. Since there was no requirement that there had to be multi organizations involved in the bid, the RMEF would have automatically won the bid because the DWR violated their own rule by going to the RFP and are STILL in violation of their rule as I type this. Those are facts whether you or any of the SFW supporters will admit it or not and I'm sure you/they won't!
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

Elk,
Are you really pulling someone's kids into the argument and how or how not they were raised. Is that the best you can do or come up with as an expample. Seriously leave people's relationship with their childern out of any MM discussion. Unless it relates to hunting or your own personal children.

That's my thin skin showing y'all found it.
 
RE: Debunking the DWR?s Frequently Asked Questions Re: Utah Expo Permits and Conservation Funding

>Elk,
>Are you really pulling someone's kids
>into the argument and how
>or how not they were
>raised. Is that the
>best you can do or
>come up with as an
>expample. Seriously leave people's
>relationship with their childern out
>of any MM discussion.
>Unless it relates to hunting
>or your own personal children.
>
>
>That's my thin skin showing y'all
>found it.

I'm sorry you took my reply to HIS post so personally. I wouldn't reply to any of your posts with that example, but since Tristate calls us and treats us as if we were "little girls" or children or elementary/Jr High students, all the while trying to verbally bully or embarrass us into submission, I figured that was the way he must treat all children, even his own. If he interacted with his own children in the same manner he interacts with his internet "children", I suspect he'd get the same responses. But if he thinks it wouldn't work with his own children, why would he think it would work with us? In any case, I'll take your advice and leave the children out of these toxic discussions. Let's hope he does the same and somewhere along the line, he (and quite a few others on both sides) will realize that rudeness, name calling, insults, innuendoes, insinuations, and fabrications are counterproductive to problem solving.
 

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