Does more elk = less deer?

R

Rambo

Guest
I think a big piece of the declining mule deer puzzle is, More elk = Less deer.

What do all of you MM guys think?

P.S. I love elk and mule deer. All big game for that matter.

Please keep the conversation positive and not childish.

Happy hunting.

Jake Swensen
 
I've heard and read conflicting reports on the subject.

We've all wondered the same thing but a few have actually witnessed elk displacing deer. I've been at a water hole and had the elk run the deer off. Literally RUN THEM OFF, as in, run them out of sight.

I've seen deer and elk feeding on the hillside in total harmony and on other occasions I've seen elk charging around running the deer off the hillside. I guess some elk just don't like deer! haha

There's little doubt that elk do indeed displace deer. Elk can be big, agressive critters when they're protecting their habitat.

IMHO, more elk means less deer.

Sad but true,
Zeke
 
I've always wondered the same thing....one thing I have noticed is where I hunt if the elk are in the deer are not. I don't think elk will run off the mature bucks however the general population of deer being does and young bucks are definitely affected.

"I'll see you all this coming fall in the Big Rock Candy Mountains!"

 
>NO, I think more predators= less
>deer. I have yet
>to see an elk kill
>a deer, or eat a
>deer.

I agree that more predators equals less deer but.....

I have yet to see a house kill or eat a deer too but we both know that homes in the wrong area negatively impact deer!

Mule deer are not as adaptive as some large animals and their diets are quite delicate. When pushed away from the best areas, by whatever means, mule deer suffer.

Zeke
 
I think so. I think it's more of a winter range thing though. I have areas where I use to see a lot of deer in some lower winter ranges and now all I find is elk and lots of them at that!!! I def think they will compete for the better winter ranges and run the deer out of the area. Just my thoughts.
 
Yup... Been watching a specific units deer and elk population for numerous years. Elk are prolific but deer are dwindling. Ironically the most recect deer count showed a slight increase in the deer herd while just last year the CPW deemed the elk herd was finally at objective after more than a decade of increased cow elk harvest to bring the herd numbers back in line. I do believe there are other contibuting factors as well with habitat being right near the top over predators. Rangelands are old and in disparate need of rejuvination. Years ago chaining was common practice as was rangeland burning after the sheepherders moved on. Not so much the case any more. Oak scrub which used to only get to 4 to 6 feet or so tall is now 12 feet plus with the good browes up high. Muleys love aspen timber too but aspen groves are reducing in size while being over taken by older growth type species such as sagebrush and pine. IMO by improving habitat you'll spread the deer out more rather than concentrating them is to specific "good habitat" regions there by not concentrating the predators.

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway."
 
LAST EDITED ON May-19-14 AT 06:50PM (MST)[p]Deer getting chased by hunters from archery to to rifle season, then add in a whole bunch of more people and hunts for elk in those same areas. Not good, especialy for the deer.

I say kill way more elk. A win win.

Elk are hard on Aspen.
 
RE: Does more elk = less deer?i

deer don't like the smell of elk same with live stock, ive hunted the same mountain for 4o years, we learned a long time ago to hunt where the cows were not,you can smell it,,, some places are so strong with the smell of livestock nothing else will stay their,, as far as elk running the deer off where did they go ,that's where I want to hunt!!deep snow means bad news for all big game, but like years ago in the west buffalo could make it, . well mr .antelope followed right behind and made a living, when they killed all the buffalo the antelope winter killed by the thousands.by breaking trail in deep snow the elk give as much as they take for our deer,,!!!
 
RE: Does more elk = less deer?i

I've had this very conversation with a couple of DNR officers (off the record, of course) and they both agree with the premise that large Elk populations have a negative impact on Deer numbers. Personally, I think it makes a lot of sense. I am doing my best to kill a Big bull as often as possible to help out the little guys :)


2a0fcsk.gif
 
RE: Does more elk = less deer?i

Yes, High density of elk means fewer elk.

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"


Let me guess, you drive a 1 ton with oak trees for smoke stacks, 12" lift kit and 40" tires to pull a single place lawn mower trailer?
 
RE: Does more elk = less deer?i

Elk are bigger and more dominant. Cow elk take over the better fawning/calving areas; leaving the does to bear their fawns in more open cover, making them more vulnerable to predation.

Habitats have changed over the past decades; becoming more favorable to elk and less favorable for deer. Aspen densities have diminished severely across the west, and the elk take over these better birthing areas, moving deer. Elk populations are way up; deer are way down.

Seems pretty obvious, really.
 
RE: Does more elk = less deer?i

Deer get poached more than elk. Predators and Poachers. Elk eat a more diverse types of plants.
 
RE: Does more elk = less deer?i

A simple observation from an old guy.
I used to see deer everywhere and in large numbers, but it was a treat to see a few elk.
Now I see elk everywhere and it's a treat to see a few deer!
When a basin is full of elk there is very little room for much else.
Yes more elk=less deer
 
RE: Does more elk = less deer?i

when a basin is full of elk there is little room for much else, bull sizzz, juzz some you guys cant be that dumb!!!a simple old hunter is right,,,,,,
 
Personal experience tells me yes, more elk=less deer.

The greatest example for me is the North Slope Uintas. When I was a kid, I'd go bow hunting with my dad and uncles up there. We used to see 100 deer per day, including several bucks. Elk were a rare (and welcomed) sight. Then some plans were put into place to increase elk numbers. All trips I have made up there in recent years have resulted in seeing a lot of elk (including mature bulls), and not too many deer, and even fewer bucks.

I'd point to the Book Cliffs as a location that both species flourish. But everyone always complains that it's not quite a trophy unit for either species... So maybe neither flourishes :)

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
It depends. If they are both competing on winter range, deer will loose. Some places in WY and NV there is good habitat, no elk, deer are struggeling every where. I don't think it's much of a problem in summer range. Drastically reducing elk numbers in some areas hasn't increased significant populations in deer.
 
I highly doubt this. i antler hunt where there are tons of elk mixed in with deer during winter months. If anything late season elk hunters in my area (due to depth of snow) do more harm than anything when it comes to elk affecting deer. Bullets ( mismanagement ) effect deer numbers more than anything period. Blame it on what you want. Everyone seems to think its elk on the winter ranges, winter range conditions, hard winters, ect ect. Then why can you go in town, the remote back country (which we all know is shrinking by the minute and getting overcrowded ) or on private land and see tons of animals and qaulity animals? its because they arent getting shot in those places (unless your in utah those town bucks seem to get poached alot there). Most of us as hunters fail to want to recognize this because of thier own personal greed of wanting to go hunt every year this idea is usually rejected.
 
Elk are the ##### roach of big game.
Don't misunderstand me, I love to hunt and observe all of them critters.
On the small range I call home, in the 70s the mule deer were doing great. The 80s elk started to gain numbers. By the 90s mule deer were getting to be fewer with elk #s on the rise, now elk inhabit and dominate every inch of the range to the point a buckskin is rare to see.
Just my personal assessment of what I experience.
 
I talk to a couple of dwr guys!!, who the hell do you think have mismanaged our deer, then blame any thing and every thing,,your deer are gone, the elk played a very small rolle in that, fell lucky we have elk, if the ranchers get their way we wont have them!!!! help save what we got!!
 
In the areas we hunt I have seen a similar trend with more elk and fewer deer. I don't have the answers but have a few observations.

1. Elk provide another food source for predators. Usually predator and prey have a stabilizing relationship. More predators eat more deer. Deer numbers fall predators starve. Predator numbers fall deer numbers increase. Now the predators just switch to a dif. food source and there numbers stay constant and deer numbers stay lower.

2. I believe that the average hunter is more to blame than the DWR. How many times have you heard the guy with a two point in the back of his truck complain about "no deer", or no decent bucks. We have too many killers and not enough hunters. Put party hunting on top of the list also. Not to mention poor ethics that cause wounding loss. To me a dead head is never a great find. It is just sad.

3. Automobiles, atv's, roads, enough said there.

4. Habitat loss and by that I mean deer specific habitat. Just because you have space for the deer doesn't mean they have conditions to sustain them. Deer have very specific needs and vegetation types to survive let alone thrive. The droughts in the late 80's wiped out a tremendous amount a deer specific habitat. Most of which was replaced by other vegetation types.

The days of blaming the DWR for poor management have passed. They are an under-manned and under paid group of have working people who do the best they can with the resources they are provided. Hunters have to step up if they want changes. Hunters have to take responsibility. As for the "it's about the money" comments. Everything is about the money. Money is what drives our world. The very paper your tag is printed on costs money. The stamp they use to mail it to you costs money. No more excuses.
 
Everyone has an opinion based on their experiences. or have read a paper that aligns with their idea's. And if someone puts up anything that goes against what their opinion is, then the other has to not only be wrong, but must be either joked about or disproved with yet another theory aligning with their opinion.
I choose to look at this another way. In the last 15 years, in the area I hunt Deer in, I can count 2 years I consider "WET" years. The bitter brush and Browse are NOTHING compared to what it was in the early 90's. Where once there were mixed mormon tea,Bitter brush,Browse, and Sage. That were thriving and easily waist high. Now there is small amounts of Bitter brush, mixed with Sage and cheat grass. The Deer numbers are down greatly from 15 years ago. I have moved my hunting grounds 10 miles to a better place and there are Still Deer in this area. I know the area that Deer and Elk from this area winter in., and the wintering grounds have changed little. Deer and Elk both use the Winter area and I haven't seen any conflict, "Bullying"by the Elk. Predators have taken a toll on the Deer, and had a greater impact due to the herd numbers being low. But I can say, this year the predator problems didn't seam as bad.
Now as a lot of you know, I am also an Elk hunter. Archery Elk hunter infact. The area I Elk hunt in has also been changed with water issues in the last few years. Last year was the first year I have Seen the stream in the canyon I hunt Dry up by Sept. And this is a big thing, I have hunted this canyon scene 1980. As long as the Grass stays in the canyon tops so do the Elk. when its gone so are the elk. In the early 80's there were also Deer in this area. I Hunted them when you could still hunt 2 bucks a year, and I hunted them with archery while hunting elk. It is a Rare thing to see many Deer here anymore. With the fires and drought most "Deer" food is dwindling. but more Grasses "Elk" food is available. As I see it both area's I hunt have had the Habitat drastically changed in the last 10-15 years. and the change for the most part has favored Elk and not Deer. These are only 2 area's but they are area's that I have seen this change. and I don't need a paper written my a range biologist, Or a panel made to look into issues on big game numbers for the area's. If you look its easy to see why there are more Elk and fewer Deer its all about the habitat for the Area's I hunt.
 
the dwr takes the money' they get what comes with it, times are good ,they are great, times are bad ,they suck, who else is in charge of wildlife???
 
I have noticed that the Bitterbrush is one of the first to show signs of drought. It used to stay green year round and now by the bow hunt the way it grows on the edges it is already dried up and does not return the next year.

I have also been to a rack meeting and heard the biologist say there is nothing he can do to help the habitat if it don't rain and a professor from Utah state told him that there were lots of other vegetation that he could plant that does better in the dryer conditions and they scoffed at him. He was there to help educate them on the changing conditions and made suggestions on what to do. The biologist exact words were there is nothing I can do if it does not rain.

I don't think the DWR adapts quick enough to the changes in the herds and habitat because the methods they use are out dated.

What ever that system is for counting deer is not working cause the deer have changed. They say there are 800 deer on the island and that is impossible and there is no deer habitat on that island but some how it seems to produce good numbers of deer but not 800. The hunting pressure is light and they have no big predators and pretty bad habitat.

I would like to see more studies that might shed some light on the fact that deer don't like to be harassed by humans, Elk or predators. They simply move to less favorable areas and that is when the Habitat plays a bigger role.

Just my thoughts.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-26-14 AT 02:09PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-26-14 AT 02:07?PM (MST)

NM tried to kill out all the elk in unit 23 a few years ago. The mule deer had already declined before the elk moved in and the they overlapped the elk and deer seasons where a person could hunt both and then they opened up the unit to unlimited elk tags. Result: Elk were wiped out. Deer numbers continued to plummet. We still don't have any deer and not many elk in this unit. As our elk herds expanded into previously mule deer habitat the elk flourished but the mule deer were already in a steep downward spiral.

AZ is trying to do the same thing in the south end of unit 27 by wiping out all of the elk.. The AZ Biologist is a deer lover and he won't listen to NM and the experience it has had. They have tried burns and all sorts of things to no avail. The deer haven't made a come back. The only thing they haven't done is a concerted effort to control the coyotes and mtn. lions.

Even Garth Carter Huntin Fool, retired Utah Game Dept. biologist even has finally come to the conclusion. It is predators.

Elk, drouth, new roads and the like have little effect.

The Henry Mtn's unit closed the unit for 5 years (a few years back) and saw a huge comeback in big bucks. Maybe we ought to take some hunting pressure off of them.

The Jicarilla Apaches tightly control hunting and when predation is high and buck numbers low they close their hunts. They are No. 1 in B&C record book bucks, and they have a thriving elk herd to boot.

A three point limit is a big help but the NM Game Dept. only put in place two years before they scraped it and we were starting to see more mature bucks. Unit 23 had 2200 deer tags the last couple of years. Not enough bucks left to breed the few does we have.

NM Game Dept. is always behind the curve and is more in the license sales business in managing the deer. Their management scheme is to keep their Dept. alive and funded and license sales is the easiest way to do it. They call the very heavily hunted units opportunity units. Now even the general hunting public is thinking well maybe we need to have a few less tags.

On the new 4 year cycle the NM Game Dept. is now finally going to cut tags as we have lost our deer state wide. Even the northern trophy units have went to hell in a hand basket.

Our elk are doing good and they do have a better management plan for them but then they are easier to manage when they have expanding numbers.
 
More cars on the highway = less deer. In our area deer are being killed in the thousands every winter from being hit on the hwy. Also everyone seems to like building out in the sticks. Then they complain about the deer destroying their flowers or garden. Look at what they did to the nebo elk heard a few years back. People building along the Birds Eye / Indianola area complained in force to the dwr. They had no choice but to eliminate them. There's barely a fraction of what there was 15 years ago.

If we want more deer we will need to invest in better fences along hwy's. We will need to stop giving into the pressures of people complaining about the deer eating their gardens if they build in the sticks. I would like to see a stat on what the DWR pays landowners for damage compensation yearly.
 
Loss of habitat = less deer

Whether it is caused by loss of aspen forests (overgrowth of evergreens), or grazing by increasing populations of elk. Habitat loss is how elk can impact deer.

We have the same problem between species in Texas. More axis deer = less whitetail. Whitetail are browsers (like mule deer). Axis are grazers (can digest grass) like elk. When groceries are short, axis and elk will win out because they can digest both.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Yes.

_______________________________
There are two kinds of people without
beards - boys and women. I am neither.
 
Definitely yes. It's pretty well documented that more elk, more whitetails and more predators equals less deer. All the talk about habitat might be overhyped even though it is still a factor. To me, these are the "big three" in our area.

Kill a cow elk, a doe whitetail, any coyote or lion and the world is a better place. Yes, I'm biased toward mule deer.
 
icmdeer,,,,your mule deer is gone, get over it, if you want anything to hunt. help our elk . between ranchers and wolves. they are going the same place as the mule deer, like pheasants they will never be the pheasants, like their was when we were kids, people learned to hunt ,turkeys. As for me I would rather kill one big mule deer than 5 bull elk or one pheasant over 5 turkeys, but that is not the way of the future,,,,save what you got,dont cry over whats gone,,
 
Seen it both ways. Some places I see good deer and elk herds mixing,same with cows.
Were I am in NM it's predators/poaching and habitat loss. Deer are here, but way less for years. Drought annd overhunting at one time. Just haven't come back like elk.Elk adapt,mule deer haven't.
It's not encrochment by housing here. No people.
 
How many deer do you see in Yellowstone, even
Though the park ain't winter range??

Just sayin'


"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
When Utah was at its all time high for population of Mule Deer (over 600,000) there was only (5,000) elk in the state. When Elk were at their all time high in Utah population wise (about 80,000) deer were at their all time low about (200,000).

When Deer were at their all time high we had over 1 million sheep grazing, now when deer are at all time lows we have all time lows for sheep grazing.

This state and some groups have turned AUM's from Sheep and cattle into AUM's for wildlife all in the name of Deer and Sheep yet it has not made a difference for the deer.

You see Utah has taken the best thing for our range land (sheep) off the mountain and replaced it with the worst thing for our range land (elk).

Elk eat everything starting with the best feed for deer and then moving on from there when the deer feed is gone. The out eat, out compete, push around and harass deer. This is evident to anyone that spends anytime studying these animals.

Also with all the sheep gone from the mountain there is less ranchers fixing fences, sustaining water sources, killing predators and patrolling for poachers.

I will admit I have never seen and elk physically kill a deer. Has it happened? Probably, is that the reason for less and less deer? No.

But I have seen many deer die and populations dwindle because of elk and their behaviors. Is it not just a little curious as to why no state agency will do a scientific study on the impact elk have on mule deer? IS it not puzzling why you rarely if ever find healthy deer herds and elk herds in this state residing in the same area?

Is it not puzzling why on the Henry Mountians the DWR has a zero elk policy meaning hunt them and hunt them all with no antler restrictions or anything yet on the Paunsagaunt they manage for trophy elk and welcome them there? Keep in mind both units are suppose to be premium for deer yet they are managed completely different.

So in short YES more elk in Utah equals less deer. Colorado maybe not, but Colorado and Utah are vastly different with range conditions and water issues and many other things. But then again Colorado's deer population is suffering as well.


Deer stand no chance to rebound now without bringing back 10-80 and strict 9 and greatly reducing the elk population. Gimmicks like coyote bountys and contests do little to nothing for our deer herds. You see mule deer have been suppressed so much by predators, highways, winter kill, bad range land and lack of fawn recruitment that without drastic measures they are doomed. All the habitat work in the world has not and will not fix the deer population. This is evident as you drive though countless thousands of acres of great range land restoration and you see very few deer.

Yes the Henry mountains has giant mule deer bucks, but the overall population and health of the herd is abysmal. The DWR will even admit to that.

SO why if the Pauns and the Henry Mtns are premium units do we manage them differently?

All of the west suffers when it comes to Mule Deer and all of the West has a greater elk population. Anyone that believes that is coincidence is denying the truth.

Again elk are not the sole reason deer declined, but elk are a major contributor as to why they stay suppressed.

You want to fix deer in this state and west wide you need to bring back poison, put more sheep on the mountain, take more elk off the mountain, aerial gun for predators in key months, get rid of the funding for a bounty on coyotes and put that money into the hands of professional predator killers, fence your highways, hammer poachers, and have a policy that ZERO does are hunted and killed and any that are in residential areas get transported and relocated to wilderness areas.

If you do these things you will see our mule deer herds rebound. But if we continue to gloss over the facts and fluff everyone into thinking (game units) and (coyote bounty's) will fix the deer herds then we are part of the problem and the biggest part.

I hope you all have a great summer and fall in however you enjoy the outdoors.

Tony Abbott
 
fishon, bullsizz, is all I can say!!!!!you need to stick to your radio station, if you still got one,,youve all ready showed with sfw and the mule deer foundation, that working for wildlife, was a little to much for you.
 
Hard winters and elk being tougher and more hardy than deer through those winters left fewer deer for predators to consume.

In Colorado Coyotes, Bear, Mountain Lions and Humans still targeted the deer that were still around.
The success rates for humans hunting deer has always been higher than elk hunters. I find it hard to believe it could be different for the predators as well.
Deer are still trying to recover but it will take awhile.
Meanwhile take out as many non human predators as possible legally.
Unlike some I do not think aerial "get some" get some" is the way to do it.
Hunt the predators and realize cutting some tag numbers and possibly stop winter range late season hunts as well may help the deer return in good numbers.
My opinion.
 
Elkun,

fission is right on target! I don't care if Tony was a member of whatever hated organization. He knows what the heck he is talking about! Period! You know not of what you speak Elkun. You have the hate rancher syndrome real bad it would seem. But you are not alone, and that is why so much of true game management is being shoved aside by folks of your persuasion.

Here in the SW we used to have tremendous numbers of mule deer and more way more cattle grazing. All of the old timer rancher had lion and bear dogs. They organized helicopter coyote hunts., the sheepmen used 1080, we had a boat load of trappers and the predators were being controlled. What started the whole decline was the fur market hit the skids big time and everyone quit trapping. There are three reasons for the decline in the entire west and they are: 1. predators, 2. predators, and 3. predators.

When trapping stopped in the mid to late 1980's we saw an immediate decline in the mule deer. Coyotes take most of the fawn crop. We are in a predator pit. In a healthy deer herd some predation is ok but once they reach the low numbers you then have a very hard time bringing the deer herds back. The problem is exacerbated by the various state Game Departments selling too many deer licenses and it is a sin to have a coyote calling contest and poison is outlawed and most deer biologists refuse to admit the problem is predators. Most of them blame drouth, habitat and various other feeble excuses but as the years go by predator management is taking a back seat because of the anti's and it being a hot potato issue. Our deer will have a real hard time coming back unless a different attitude is taken by the game biologists that control the State Game Dept.'s.
 
>fishon, bullsizz, is all I can
>say!!!!!you need to stick
>to your radio station,
>if you still got one,,youve
>all ready showed with sfw
>and the mule deer foundation,
>that working for wildlife,
>was a little to much
>for you.

+1
__________________________________
There are two kinds of people without
beards - boys and women. I am neither.
 
"You want to fix deer in this state and west wide you need to bring back poison, put more sheep on the mountain, take more elk off the mountain, aerial gun for predators in key months, get rid of the funding for a bounty on coyotes and put that money into the hands of professional predator killers, fence your highways, hammer poachers, and have a policy that ZERO does are hunted and killed and any that are in residential areas get transported and relocated to wilderness areas."

Let me clarify. Fishon, I agree with some (maybe a lot) of what you said. But, sheep aren't the answer. THE problems, as you say, are highways and loss of winter range (and drought). Poachers and predators aren't the problem - they're minor compared to the other factors (in most areas).

__________________________________
There are two kinds of people without
beards - boys and women. I am neither.
 
Elkun,

I think the dirty boogers are eating most of the fawn crop!

Seriously though, predation many times takes the back seat in the argument and habitat and etc. are given too much credit in the deer decline argument.

My point in the above post was that, predators, given they are a hot potato issue between us and the anti's, the biology books all of our Game Dept. biologists use in their college classes taught them predators weren't the primary threat to deer.

I do however recognize it is a combination of reasons for the West's mule deer decline.
 

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