Founder has a side gig, opinions?

LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-17 AT 05:32PM (MST)[p]Exactly! It will be as successful as the law passed to stop tag brokering in Colorado. Just change things up a bit and you are legal. This bill is even easier to get around. They are actually spending time and money on something that will accomplish nothing. Just your tax dollars at work.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-17 AT 04:31PM (MST)[p]>I would agree that what I
>offer is just another tool
>for increasing ones chance of
>harvesting a trophy buck. It's
>one of many tools. My
>question, why is it that
>this particular tool (not me,
>the information. ha ha) needs
>to be outlawed but none
>of the other tools that
>are far more valuable on
>the cutting board? A centerfire
>rifle results in many more
>dead deer than my information,
>as does so many things.
>
>
>My belief is that most people
>don't want to give up
>the tools they possess and
>use, so in an effort
>to give the game a
>better chance of survival from
>other people, they'd like to
>see tools others use outlawed.
>Cause it doesn't affect them.
>
>
>Most of the guys on their
>high horses because they don't
>use a guide or consulting
>service, still use other tools
>to increase their chance of
>success. Of course in their
>mind the tools they use
>are OK and ethical, but
>those who use tools that
>they wish not to are
>?the problem?.
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>on Facebook!

The issue simply is there can only be a few big deer. Biology decides that. I watched your scouting year a few months back. I think you saw over 500 bucks. How many were 190? 180? 170? How many tags are there?

Simple math. You can't be 100% successful.

So the options become be less successful, or cut tags.

You live in Utah. Pretty sure the fact you focus on Wyoming,shows how you feel about what tag cuts accomplished here.

So is it your contention there should be quotas so the pros can continue their business interests? Or are we pretending last winter didn't kick the crap out of the deer?

Btw. Those tools I use. Gun, bow, scope, binos, all require me to be there. Scouting service doesn't.

You can tell me the region you found big deer. Without me scouting it, just heading up the trail day before opener, hunting a week, what are the odds i kill 170+ deer? Even with my 06', leopold scope, and vortex binos?

What is it with your scouting report? You say 4000x better.

So which tool potentially leads to killing those big deer? Which are severely limited just by biology?

You can't have 100% success. Reality is you can't have 50% and maintain. Biology says no.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Right again TX.

BobCat, your safe! Big ain't no PissCutter. Send out the ads and shore up the phone lines. It's gonna get fast and furious!

DC
 
I think there is a big difference between those that do not like Founder's business idea and those that are actively working to put this legislation in place. It's not surprising that those pushing this the most seem to be the outfitters. Selling deer information to a couple guys a year does not have even remotely the same impact on the resource as the outfitters. So my question to those that are so adamantly against Founder's business model is this:

Would you support outlawing outfitting as well? If not, why not? If it is truly about the resource, outfitting has accounted for killing exponentially more deer on that unit (and any other unit) than scouting services ever will.

Candidly, I don't like the idea of this stuff happening, but to be totally honest, I think banning it by statute is bush league and disingenuous.
 
This bill will be IMPOSSIBLE to enforce.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Yes, but he couldnt make enough money to pay for the permits and his time. As it is he doesnt make enough money to pay for his time. If you factor in gas, driving time, hiking time, time on the mtn...etc.

I would pay a guy like that $60 per hr. I am sure he makes that doing something else. So, you see 40 days scouting is like $15k.

Doubt he made that. Now add in a permit for an area in Wyoming from the USFS. Wouldnt make sense.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
I might be wrong but wasn't some of the outfitting logic originally based on safety.

To keep a bunch of California knuckle heads from getting lost in what used to be a real wilderness.

The world is a much smaller place now with the advent of GPS. Just as Founder points out in his advertisement.

So ye there probably is no longer a real need for outfitters other than to grantee a kill with little effort other than opening your wallet.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-17 AT 05:37PM (MST)[p]"I might be wrong but wasn't some of the outfitting logic originally based on safety"

Nope, you are wrong. It was never about safety. It was a give away to outfitters. If not, then why don't you need an outfitter to hike, camp, and fish in that same wilderness?

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>I would agree that what I
>offer is just another tool
>for increasing ones chance of
>harvesting a trophy buck. It's
>one of many tools. My
>question, why is it that
>this particular tool (not me,
>the information. ha ha) needs
>to be outlawed but none
>of the other tools that
>are far more valuable on
>the cutting board?

The proposed bill does not outlaw this "tool". It would regulate this activity by requiring a guide license. While you may feel the legislation is vindictive towards you I can certainly see rationale behind wanting to regulate this activity for safety and wildlife management purposes.
 
>This bill will be IMPOSSIBLE to
>enforce.
>
>"The penalty good men pay for
>indifference to public affairs is
>to be ruled by evil
>men." - Plato

I disagree. It bans advertising...and it would be incredibly easy to run stings on suspected suppliers of such info.
 
Not me, it happens all the time. In Utah Mossback will pay a "finders fee" to anyone that puts them on a sweet buck or bull.

It will happen if you allow it....or if you dont. Tax it.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Aspen is right. Makes it real nice for a tag holder having dudes all over chssing a finders fee while guys are hunting. Draw guys get screwed, outfitter gets paid.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
It already does and is happening in nearly every western state. In fact it's probably less so in WY and MT than the others. This really isn't a new business scheme. It has been going on for at least a decade.
 
If anyone really needs to be policed about selling out coordinates it's 90% of the jacka55es on social media hunting on the WF. I wouldn't let half of these backstabbing spot telling dishonest little sh1ts in the same room as my wife with there lack of integrity. I wouldn't be able to turn my back to get a glass of water. I'm very careful about what I say and to whom I share it with, I have been burned multiple times. And every year a new face shows up. Hell the biggest problem of it all works for a major archery company. He killed 2 sweet bucks on the WF years ago but his mouth has been his demise and that's why I believe he hasn't tagged a bruiser since. What's even worse is he hunts about 4 of the basins I hunt and I will never take a soul to. Wish I could say the same for him on keeping his lips sealed. And I don't care which one of his buddies this offends I'm not looking for a sponsorship. And I'm sure founder can back that the WF has turned into a joke and to trust nobody with info on that mountain range. Founders scouting resource would be worth the money if I could afford it. It would really be worth it to someone in a management role at there job with a lack of time to scout, and a week or two to actually hunt. And it is a very innovative approach. Regulating it would be tougher than the war on drugs. When you stop a car full of drugs a dog can sniff it out you cant do that with a truck full of people ready to sell coordinates to a slammer buck I can see good and bad. Something we really should be looking at through the microscope even harder is long range equipment archery, rifle, & muzzleloaders. And yes the winter was a huge kick in the nuts to mule deer hunters and mule deer numbers across the west. I'm hoping we have a more mild winter this year. Hopefully the herds recover quick and we can all be hunting giants real soon.

"We don't have a gun problem we have prescription drug problem."
 
I know of someone that paid a service for this type of thing on a San Juan archery tag a few years ago. He got pictures from trail cams sent by this person/service all summer long and GPS coordinates to those cameras. There wasn?t a lot more info than that provided as I understand it.

Definitely not a new idea.
 
Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching- even when doing the wrong thing is legal.
Aldo Leopold



Simply defined, fair chase is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit of free-ranging wild game animals in a manner which does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the animal

By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game

Pope and Young





"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Which begs the question: Whose ethics rule the day? I mean, who is the ethical king that gets to determine which ethics are actually ethical, and which are not?

Do you just anoint yourself for that? If so, what made you so special that the rest of us have to just willingly submit to your anointed state? Can we get them all written down so we all know if we're being ethical or not?
 
Louis and Clark are guilty of the same thing.

I am guilty of the same thing.

You are all guilty.

If you have ever told someone about a spot, shared a picture, recomended a hunting unit, told someone about a spring to get water from, mentioned a guzzler in the Pinyons, given advice about seasons, then....on some level....you are guilty. Especially the guys on this website sharing pics and info with STRANGERS and saying...thanks, if you need info I will TRADE ya. I know about Utah if you give me info on Idaho.....etc

People on here often want a hunt report from guys they have given info to.

It has been happening since Louis and Clark were paid to scout a new route through the mountains. Many of us pay for Eastmans Journal....they have a MEMBER RESOURCE SECTION that details units to hunt, places to hunt in them, seasons to hunt, specific canyons sometimes, then there is EPIC Outdoors and Hunt'n Fool....they will let you call them for specifics on where to hunt if you buy there magazine for $150 per year or whatever it costs.

Where does it end? Founder saw a buck. He can tell someone about it just like OnX maps has the right to tell you migration routes, location of springs, access roads, etc.

This is a non issue. Outfitters are mad we hunters found a way to share info. Get over it...

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
>Louis and Clark are guilty of
>the same thing.
>
>I am guilty of the same
>thing.
>
>You are all guilty.
>
>If you have ever told someone
>about a spot, shared a
>picture, recomended a hunting unit,
>told someone about a spring
>to get water from, mentioned
>a guzzler in the Pinyons,
>given advice about seasons, then....on
>some level....you are guilty.
> Especially the guys on
>this website sharing pics and
>info with STRANGERS and saying...thanks,
>if you need info I
>will TRADE ya. I
>know about Utah if you
>give me info on Idaho.....etc
>
>
>People on here often want a
>hunt report from guys they
>have given info to.
>
>It has been happening since Louis
>and Clark were paid to
>scout a new route through
>the mountains. Many of
>us pay for Eastmans Journal....they
>have a MEMBER RESOURCE SECTION
>that details units to hunt,
>places to hunt in them,
>seasons to hunt, specific canyons
>sometimes, then there is EPIC
>Outdoors and Hunt'n Fool....they will
>let you call them for
>specifics on where to hunt
>if you buy there magazine
>for $150 per year or
>whatever it costs.
>
>Where does it end? Founder
>saw a buck. He
>can tell someone about it
>just like OnX maps has
>the right to tell you
>migration routes, location of springs,
>access roads, etc.
>
>This is a non issue.
>Outfitters are mad we hunters
>found a way to share
>info. Get over it...
>
>
>"The penalty good men pay for
>indifference to public affairs is
>to be ruled by evil
>men." - Plato

Nothing you describe above would be affected by the proposed bill in the Wyoming legislature.
 
>Which begs the question: Whose ethics
>rule the day? I mean,
>who is the ethical king
>that gets to determine which
>ethics are actually ethical, and
>which are not?
>
>Do you just anoint yourself for
>that? If so, what made
>you so special that the
>rest of us have to
>just willingly submit to your
>anointed state? Can we get
>them all written down so
>we all know if we're
>being ethical or not?

That was Pope and Young. Boone and Crocket statement is about the same.

I just posted those for the "if its legal crowd"

Reality is for me personally, its not an issue. I hunt deer on the same unit as my grandparents did. Its genetics don't have 190 deer. Founder, Rob, sns can sit up in Wyoming and eradicate mule deer, and it doesn't affect me personally one bit.

Mine is more of an overall, at what lengths do we go to kill a deer. It seems for mamy, there is no end. That grip and grin is all that matters. Once someone crosses from man vs animal, to whatever it takes vs animal, I personally fail to see the challenge.

Ya, I don't have 190 deer, or 400 bulls on my wall.
But if Founder found it, and told you where it is(and face it the natural evolution of his business is for him(consultants) to be on the mountain and sat phone into town for the shooter to come up and pull a trigger) do you really have one either? There are 200"+ deer for sale on KSL right now. You can buy them too.

I'm out. I only ask you guys keep me informed as to where all the "pros" are, so I can get as far away as possible. Sorry to all you guys who busted azz learning and hiking around doing the work. Innovation made that not necessary.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
"By the use of electronic devices for attracting, LOCATING or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game"

Didn't realize that Pope and Young eliminates entry of animals located with a trail camera. This statement seems to say that.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
The offer still stands hossblur. I'll point you towards a buck in Wyoming, you backpack in come mid-Sept the 4-5 miles and 2800 vertical feet or so, spend 5-6 days camped in a little tent dealing with rain, snow and cold trying to just snap a picture of that buck I send you after.
Then come on back and tell us how my information removed all the challenge from the hunt, that the pursuit wasn?t fair chase and you felt like all you were was a ?shooter?.
Like I said, talk is cheap. It's easy to sit here on the site talking about how easy it is, it's another to do it. Your opinion would mean a whole more if you had some actual experience to support your beliefs.


>>Which begs the question: Whose ethics
>>rule the day? I mean,
>>who is the ethical king
>>that gets to determine which
>>ethics are actually ethical, and
>>which are not?
>>
>>Do you just anoint yourself for
>>that? If so, what made
>>you so special that the
>>rest of us have to
>>just willingly submit to your
>>anointed state? Can we get
>>them all written down so
>>we all know if we're
>>being ethical or not?
>
>That was Pope and Young.
>Boone and Crocket statement is
>about the same.
>
>I just posted those for the
>"if its legal crowd"
>
>Reality is for me personally, its
>not an issue. I
>hunt deer on the same
>unit as my grandparents did.
> Its genetics don't have
>190 deer. Founder, Rob,
>sns can sit up in
>Wyoming and eradicate mule deer,
>and it doesn't affect me
>personally one bit.
>
>Mine is more of an overall,
>at what lengths do we
>go to kill a deer.
> It seems for mamy,
>there is no end.
>That grip and grin is
>all that matters. Once
>someone crosses from man vs
>animal, to whatever it takes
>vs animal, I personally fail
>to see the challenge.
>
>Ya, I don't have 190 deer,
>or 400 bulls on my
>wall.
>But if Founder found it, and
>told you where it is(and
>face it the natural evolution
>of his business is for
>him(consultants) to be on the
>mountain and sat phone into
>town for the shooter to
>come up and pull a
>trigger) do you really have
>one either? There are
>200"+ deer for sale on
>KSL right now. You
>can buy them too.
>
>I'm out. I only ask
>you guys keep me informed
>as to where all the
>"pros" are, so I can
>get as far away as
>possible. Sorry to all
>you guys who busted azz
>learning and hiking around doing
>the work. Innovation made
>that not necessary.
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
What are we actually talking here in cost if the bill passed and guys were made to be licensed?

Is this an expensive, onerous process? Or are we talking $65 and fill out an application?

Just trying to weigh the reasonableness of the requirement.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
Vanilla it seems you and I disagree more often than not, however your last post was a perfect question and highly relevant. It is the essence of many many of these forum quarrels. You stated it so well and it should be read and reread by every internet hunter/activist.

I have new found respect for you this morning. Thank you.

Aspen- another very worthwhile post and added perspective as to the tools of hunting discussions. I did some research on Teddy Roosevelt and read a bunch of his personal writings and stories, wanted to better understand the man and his thinking when it came to hunting, how he hunted and the kinds of thinjgs he did on his hunts, so far as using guides, the best tools of the day, to be as successful as he wanted to be. I read , looking for what size and kinds of animals he killed, and why he killed them. Did he need the meat, was he killing the animal for the antlers only, etc. etc.

My research on Roosevelt was most revealing. All available via Google searching as well, for those who would like do the same. Anyway, thank you for your very appropriate post as well.

DC
 
>>Which begs the question: Whose ethics
>>rule the day? I mean,
>>who is the ethical king
>>that gets to determine which
>>ethics are actually ethical, and
>>which are not?
>>
>>Do you just anoint yourself for
>>that? If so, what made
>>you so special that the
>>rest of us have to
>>just willingly submit to your
>>anointed state? Can we get
>>them all written down so
>>we all know if we're
>>being ethical or not?
>
>That was Pope and Young.
>Boone and Crocket statement is
>about the same.
>
>I just posted those for the
>"if its legal crowd"
>
>Reality is for me personally, its
>not an issue. I
>hunt deer on the same
>unit as my grandparents did.
> Its genetics don't have
>190 deer. Founder, Rob,
>sns can sit up in
>Wyoming and eradicate mule deer,
>and it doesn't affect me
>personally one bit.
>
>Mine is more of an overall,
>at what lengths do we
>go to kill a deer.
> It seems for mamy,
>there is no end.
>That grip and grin is
>all that matters. Once
>someone crosses from man vs
>animal, to whatever it takes
>vs animal, I personally fail
>to see the challenge.
>
>Ya, I don't have 190 deer,
>or 400 bulls on my
>wall.
>But if Founder found it, and
>told you where it is(and
>face it the natural evolution
>of his business is for
>him(consultants) to be on the
>mountain and sat phone into
>town for the shooter to
>come up and pull a
>trigger) do you really have
>one either? There are
>200"+ deer for sale on
>KSL right now. You
>can buy them too.
>
>I'm out. I only ask
>you guys keep me informed
>as to where all the
>"pros" are, so I can
>get as far away as
>possible. Sorry to all
>you guys who busted azz
>learning and hiking around doing
>the work. Innovation made
>that not necessary.
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"


So are you against outfitters and guides? Or just scouting packages? It's extremely hard for me to see any difference between them. Oh, except for the fact that an outfitter packs you in, cooks your food, spots your animal, guts your animal, packs out your animal, etc. A scouting package tells you where an animal was seen. Man those guys that buy a scouting package have a huge advantage over anyone else on the mountain!! I bet it's 100% success rates for guys that buy scouting packages since it's so easy now.

So if I get info about a unit or animal through a pm that's probably not ethical since I'm spending money on internet to get access to that information?

If it is ethical, then founder can sell banner space on MM and as a by product of that he can give the banner space purchaser info on an animal for free.

This entire thing is so stupid to worry about and waste money on it's ridiculous. Instead of trying to get this stopped try to get the killing of does stopped and you would save way more animals and help the herds way more.
 
>What are we actually talking here
>in cost if the bill
>passed and guys were made
>to be licensed?
>
>Is this an expensive, onerous process?
>Or are we talking $65
>and fill out an application?
>
>
>Just trying to weigh the reasonableness
>of the requirement.
>
>Grizzly
>
>-----------------------------------------

Good question. All this talk of ethics and exaggeration of what this bill might affect is distracting from the reality of what the proposed legislation would do. The bill doesn't outlaw anything...it regulates commercial activity. Period.
 
It's not the cost of a license or anything. That's not what this bill is about. It's not that they just want me to pay a yearly fee. What the outfitters want is to eliminate me and anyone like me from providing information to others. The bill is written however to allow them to provide the information if they want. The general public guys behind the bill just want to stop me and others like me from sharing information most likely to reduce competition for them, but represent that it's for the good of deer. I'm sure the general public guys don't want the outfitters to do it either, but allowed that excpetion in the bill in hopes it would have a better chance of passing.
That's what I believe.

Outfitters and the state control who gets into the club, so in the end, they'd control who gets to share information.

Heck, I would have no problem paying for a license, permit, whatever (within reason) if that's all it was about. (Although I still don't think the state should restrict my speech)
But that's not what it's about. It's about protecting business for one group and reducing competition for trophy bucks for the other. Those two groups are usually against each other, but the enemy of your enemy is your friend sometimes.

This bill has nothing to do with protecting a resource, it's all about eliminating competition, especially from some guy from Utah.
The folks I help still have a deer tag and will still go hunting whether I help them or not. Their success rate is most likely going to be the same whether I help them or not. So, the herd as a whole is not hurt at all. The only affect my information has is that the average 5-8 year old buck doing the breeding come winter might have smaller antlers, as my client may have killed a larger antlered 5-8 year old buck because of my intell.

I think it's clear what the bill is all about. It's all about, "shut up Founder about where the best bucks live, cause we don't want other people messing up our chances".


>What are we actually talking here
>in cost if the bill
>passed and guys were made
>to be licensed?
>
>Is this an expensive, onerous process?
>Or are we talking $65
>and fill out an application?
>
>
>Just trying to weigh the reasonableness
>of the requirement.
>
>Grizzly
>
>-----------------------------------------
>
>"It's time to revisit the widely
>accepted principle in the United
>States and Canada that game
>is a public resource."
>-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>quoted in Anchorage Daily News
>


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
Founder nailed it.

His post just above calling out that guy is SPOT ON.

I have hunted H and G. First time I hunted H we were able to find 43 bucks in 5 basins. Six of them were shooters, one was 34" 6x6, one was a 26" 8x7, one was a crab clawed 4 point over 30 inches. I remember I wanted to get in there and KILL IT! I was so excited. I went back on the hunt. Hunted with a Biologist from Utah. Hunted hard with guys that NEVER ever give up. We pushed the top. Glasses, Hiked, and did everything imagineable. We snuck up on elk. We saw one 2 point and one small 4 point.

Deep early snow pushed em to G. We got NOTHING. The outfitter by us shot the 2 Point on the last day with a guy from Pennsylvania.

If Founder gives you the coordinates to a 250" buck. Good luck....you will need it. You better hope the weather cooperates, you better hope you have warm enough gear, you better hope you get there at the right time, you better hope no one else pushes that buck, you better hope, you can get work off, you better hope your horse or your buddy doesnt twist an ankle, you better hope you dont kick a rock that pushes the buck into the trees, you better hope you dont get altitude sickness at 10000 feet, you better hope you are in good enough shape to last all week, you better hope it isnt a drought and the buck moves towards water, you better hope the wind doesnt keep em in the trees for days or weeks, you better hope someone else doesnt shoot him first, you better hope you dont get buck fever and miss, you better hope.....ya you get it.

It is called hunting for a reason. I would have 10 bucks on the wall over 200 inches if every nice buck someone told me about was on my wall. I would have 3 really nice bucks on the wall if I hadnt missed my shot, left my extra bullets in the truck, left my muzz cap in my tent, etc...

It is called hunting for a reason. Outfitters will hold your hand. Brian is just giving you an idea of where to find the needle in the haystack....you still gotta go find the needle and outsmart it on your own.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Founder tells a guy he saw a good buck in July in X basin and then the guy shows up in Sept to hunt there isn't a buck in X basin due to other hunters,Wolves,etc or snow or whatever.
Selling a location isn't a lock that that buck is going to stay put. All he is really selling is a spot where a BUCK was seen, pretty much. It sure help to have a starting spot but that all it is.
Pretty much the same as the guy who hang a dozen trailcams and tells his friends where he has seen some nice animals.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-17 AT 11:12AM (MST)[p]Founder, I have a question for you. I've been pretty clear that I'm pretty much indifferent on this bill. I can see the requirement for a license since its a commercial activity and not merely "speech"; plus it includes photography for commercial purposes in a National Forest, for which a permit is already required. But I certainly get your point about merely sharing knowledge. And trying to draw an "ethics" debate as compared to outfitted hunts seems frivolous at best. Certainly somebody can't support outfitters and oppose your business from an ethics standpoint, in my view.

I've also been clear that my biggest reason for opposing is its support by WYOGA. Which brings me to my question...

If this bill also included language opening Wilderness Areas to NR as a compromise... would you support it?

For me the NR Wilderness Area ban is the much bigger hammer wielded against NR by the State of Wyoming. This seems to be an Equal Protection or Selective Enforcement fight that could actually be won in court. To forbid an otherwise-lawful activity on Federal land to a select group of people because of the state on their license plate seems ambiguous to say the least. Not to mention somebody could claim it was a de facto financial test imposed on those that couldn't afford an outfitter. It would be tough to imagine a court agreeing that was reasonable when they met all other requirements via applying and drawing the coveted tag, which was issued by a government agency.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
I agree with Brian 100%. It is the WYOGA trying to eliminate him. He's totally correct.

I just googled.

First time app$1600

Yearly $600.

How factual I don't know, didn't spend time.

So, founder would have to raise his prices to cover his costs.

Founder. You keep throwing out your "challenge". WHAT ARE MY ODDS OF KILLING THAT DEER HAVING NEVER BEEN THERE WITHOUT YOUR PKG?



In my estimation, my services can improve your odds of harvesting a "special" buck by 4000%

So, ill assume my odds are 4000x better.


I simply went off what YOUR saying, I truly believe your that good at what you do.

Hunters need to separate the "big shlong contest" from the issue. This ain't about Brian. If I was on copper states forum in Arizona, they would be the example.

I said I was done but
I actually got on here to thank most of you for a good debate. Problem with this medium is you can't convey emotion. I ain't pissed. I ain't trying to be confrontational. Just bouncing ideas. I used Brian's name too damn much, but I don't know his business name, so I used his. Brian it ain't personal. I actually admire you more now. First, you could shut this down and didn't. Second I saw what you wrote about not killing a goat, shows class. However. You live here. You hunt up there im guessing because you know how things have gone here. You know there is nowhere not LE to do what you do up there. And I'm guessing your old enough to remember when it wasn't that way. I have a 6yr old and a soon to be 12yr old. I ain't backpacking in until they can, and I'm guessing will be too broken down after they are. I only hope they have the opportunity to do what you and I do. And face it, high success, bad winter, highways, development, it ain't looking promising. Hunters can't control weather, development, roads. We can control success rates. 4000 guys at 25% success leaves a lot more than 4000 guys at 45%. And does it without a single tag cut.

Come Sept ill be on the Manti. So thanks for the offer, ill extend the same to you.

For the Wyoming boys. We plan on invading your state next season. But we will just stay in K, seems the school district thinks I'm a bad parent for the 10 days my kids miss hunting here, gotta get them home.

Hope you fellas figure it out, cuz your future is Utah if you don't.

Have a good xmas




"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Well, the state has the right to dictate where, when and by whom their game animals can be harvested. The wilderness law isn't federal, it's the state simply saying, ?non-residents aren't allowed to hunt our deer in that area unless they do as we request, hire a guide?. I'm sure the Forest Service thinks it's BS too.
I think it's a crappy law, but the state owns the game and gets to dictate who, when and where.
HOWEVER, with ownership, just like the individuals in this country, they don't have the right to dictate what people say about their property. I have the right to not allow someone to come onto my property, but I have no right to dictate what they say about my property that can be seen sitting in the street out front.

As for your photography stuff you mentioned, look into it.

>LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-17
>AT 11:12?AM (MST)
>
>Founder, I have a question for
>you. I've been pretty clear
>that I'm pretty much indifferent
>on this bill. I can
>see the requirement for a
>license since its a commercial
>activity and not merely "speech";
>plus it includes photography for
>commercial purposes in a National
>Forest, for which a permit
>is already required. But I
>certainly get your point about
>merely sharing knowledge. And trying
>to draw an "ethics" debate
>as compared to outfitted hunts
>seems frivolous at best. Certainly
>somebody can't support outfitters and
>oppose your business from an
>ethics standpoint, in my view.
>
>
>I've also been clear that my
>biggest reason for opposing is
>its support by WYOGA. Which
>brings me to my question...
>
>
>If this bill also included language
>opening Wilderness Areas to NR
>as a compromise... would you
>support it?
>
>For me the NR Wilderness Area
>ban is the much bigger
>hammer wielded against NR by
>the State of Wyoming. This
>seems to be an Equal
>Protection or Selective Enforcement fight
>that could actually be won
>in court. To forbid an
>otherwise-lawful activity on Federal land
>to a select group of
>people because of the state
>on their license plate seems
>ambiguous to say the least.
>Not to mention somebody could
>claim it was a de
>facto financial test imposed on
>those that couldn't afford an
>outfitter. It would be tough
>to imagine a court agreeing
>that was reasonable when they
>met all other requirements via
>applying and drawing the coveted
>tag, which was issued by
>a government agency.
>
>Grizzly
>
>-----------------------------------------
>
>"It's time to revisit the widely
>accepted principle in the United
>States and Canada that game
>is a public resource."
>-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>quoted in Anchorage Daily News
>


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
You know what the odds of killing a top 1% buck in western Wyoming if you show up and go in blind hoping for luck? It's a hair better than zero. My information might increase odds immensely, but odds are still much in the favor of the buck against the hunter I help. And it takes a lot of work for a guy I help to maximize his odds, even having my intell. as a tool.


> I agree with Brian 100%.
> It is the WYOGA
>trying to eliminate him.
>He's totally correct.
>
>I just googled.
>
>First time app$1600
>
>Yearly $600.
>
>How factual I don't know, didn't
>spend time.
>
>So, founder would have to raise
>his prices to cover his
>costs.
>
>Founder. You keep throwing out
>your "challenge". WHAT ARE
>MY ODDS OF KILLING THAT
>DEER HAVING NEVER BEEN THERE
>WITHOUT YOUR PKG?
>
>
>
>In my estimation, my services can
>improve your odds of harvesting
>a "special" buck by 4000%
>
>
>So, ill assume my odds are
>4000x better.
>
>
>I simply went off what YOUR
>saying, I truly believe your
>that good at what you
>do.
>
>Hunters need to separate the "big
>shlong contest" from the issue.
> This ain't about Brian.
> If I was on
>copper states forum in Arizona,
>they would be the example.
>
>
>I said I was done but
>
>I actually got on here to
>thank most of you for
>a good debate. Problem
>with this medium is you
>can't convey emotion. I
>ain't pissed. I ain't
>trying to be confrontational.
>Just bouncing ideas. I used
>Brian's name too damn much,
>but I don't know his
>business name, so I used
>his. Brian it ain't
>personal. I actually admire
>you more now. First,
>you could shut this down
>and didn't. Second I
>saw what you wrote about
>not killing a goat, shows
>class. However. You
>live here. You hunt
>up there im guessing because
>you know how things have
>gone here. You know
>there is nowhere not LE
>to do what you do
>up there. And I'm
>guessing your old enough to
>remember when it wasn't that
>way. I have a
>6yr old and a soon
>to be 12yr old.
>I ain't backpacking in until
>they can, and I'm guessing
>will be too broken down
>after they are. I
>only hope they have the
>opportunity to do what you
>and I do. And
>face it, high success, bad
>winter, highways, development, it ain't
>looking promising. Hunters can't
>control weather, development, roads.
>We can control success rates.
> 4000 guys at 25%
>success leaves a lot more
>than 4000 guys at 45%.
> And does it without
>a single tag cut.
>
>Come Sept ill be on the
>Manti. So thanks for
>the offer, ill extend the
>same to you.
>
>For the Wyoming boys. We plan
>on invading your state next
>season. But we will just
>stay in K, seems the
>school district thinks I'm a
>bad parent for the 10
>days my kids miss hunting
>here, gotta get them home.
>
>
>Hope you fellas figure it out,
>cuz your future is Utah
>if you don't.
>
>Have a good xmas
>
>
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
>As for your photography stuff you
>mentioned, look into it.

I have...

"Commercial filming is defined as use of motion picture, videotaping, sound-recording, or any other type of moving image or audio recording equipment on National Forest System lands that involves the advertisement of a product or service, the creation of a product for sale, and/or the use of actors, models, sets, or props, but not including activities associated with broadcasting breaking news. For purposes of this definition, creation of a product for sale includes a film, videotape, television broadcast, or documentary of historic events, wildlife, natural events, features, subjects or participants in a sporting or recreation event, and so forth, when created for the purpose of generating income (FSH 2709.11 2008-2 (CH 40))."

Commercial filming in Wilderness Areas is even more strict.

If a person is including a photo of a deer as part of his scouting package, the law is quite clear that is "for the purpose of generating income."


Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
I just noticed an ad on this page for Yellowstone Horse Rentals.

This is very similar to what we're talking about here.

Brian, if you want to lend me your horses, or even pack in with me to hunt deer on your horses, we can do so as friends. But if you start advertising and charging for horse rentals, everything changes.

They could make virtually identical arguments to yours...

-People ride horses all the time. I'm just taking them on rides.

-The trails are public information, so they can't stop me.

-It's public land and I have a right to be there.

What do you want to bet that Yellowstone Horse Rentals has the proper permits to operate on public land? I'm guessing they're required to operate as a business and have proper permits, but I could be wrong.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-17 AT 12:34PM (MST)[p]>>As for your photography stuff you
>>mentioned, look into it.
>
>I have...
>
>"Commercial filming is defined as use
>of motion picture, videotaping, sound-recording,
>or any other type of
>moving image or audio recording
>equipment on National Forest System
>lands that involves the advertisement
>of a product or service,
>the creation of a product
>for sale, and/or the use
>of actors, models, sets, or
>props, but not including activities
>associated with broadcasting breaking news.
>For purposes of this definition,
>creation of a product for
>sale includes a film, videotape,
>television broadcast, or documentary of
>historic events, wildlife, natural events,
>features, subjects or participants in
>a sporting or recreation event,
>and so forth, when created
>for the purpose of generating
>income (FSH 2709.11 2008-2 (CH
>40))."
>
>Commercial filming in Wilderness Areas is
>even more strict.
>
>If a person is including a
>photo of a deer as
>part of his scouting package,
>the law is quite clear
>that is "for the purpose
>of generating income."
>
>
>Grizzly
>
>-----------------------------------------
>
>"It's time to revisit the widely
>accepted principle in the United
>States and Canada that game
>is a public resource."
>-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>quoted in Anchorage Daily News
>

"MOTION PICTURE" "MOVING IMAGE" A still photo or series of still photos aren't a motion picture nor a moving image and, apparently, don't require a license no matter what they are used for.
 
Correct. He'll need to not include anything like the videos he posts on this site.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
You don't need a special permit to rent horses. Business license is it. However, I don't know exact details, but a few years ago the outfitters were able to get rule changes implemented to no longer allow horses to be delivered to trailheads for individual sportsmen. They can deliver them to outfitters though. That was a little something to hinder competition that way.

>I just noticed an ad on
>this page for Yellowstone Horse
>Rentals.
>
>This is very similar to what
>we're talking about here.
>
>Brian, if you want to lend
>me your horses, or even
>pack in with me to
>hunt deer on your horses,
>we can do so as
>friends. But if you start
>advertising and charging for horse
>rentals, everything changes.
>
>They could make virtually identical arguments
>to yours...
>
>-People ride horses all the time.
>I'm just taking them on
>rides.
>
>-The trails are public information, so
>they can't stop me.
>
>-It's public land and I have
>a right to be there.
>
>
>What do you want to bet
>that Yellowstone Horse Rentals has
>the proper permits to operate
>on public land? I'm guessing
>they're required to operate as
>a business and have proper
>permits, but I could be
>wrong.
>
>Grizzly
>
>-----------------------------------------
>
>"It's time to revisit the widely
>accepted principle in the United
>States and Canada that game
>is a public resource."
>-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>quoted in Anchorage Daily News
>


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-17 AT 01:17PM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-17
>AT 12:34?PM (MST)
>
>>>As for your photography stuff you
>>>mentioned, look into it.
>>
>>I have...
>>
>>"Commercial filming is defined as use
>>of motion picture, videotaping, sound-recording,
>>or any other type of
>>moving image or audio recording
>>equipment on National Forest System
>>lands that involves the advertisement
>>of a product or service,
>>the creation of a product
>>for sale, and/or the use
>>of actors, models, sets, or
>>props, but not including activities
>>associated with broadcasting breaking news.
>>For purposes of this definition,
>>creation of a product for
>>sale includes a film, videotape,
>>television broadcast, or documentary of
>>historic events, wildlife, natural events,
>>features, subjects or participants in
>>a sporting or recreation event,
>>and so forth, when created
>>for the purpose of generating
>>income (FSH 2709.11 2008-2 (CH
>>40))."
>>
>>Commercial filming in Wilderness Areas is
>>even more strict.
>>
>>If a person is including a
>>photo of a deer as
>>part of his scouting package,
>>the law is quite clear
>>that is "for the purpose
>>of generating income."
>>
>>
>>Grizzly
>>
>>-----------------------------------------
>>
>>"It's time to revisit the widely
>>accepted principle in the United
>>States and Canada that game
>>is a public resource."
>>-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>>quoted in Anchorage Daily News
>>
>
>"MOTION PICTURE" "MOVING IMAGE" A still
>photo or series of still
>photos aren't a motion picture
>nor a moving image and,
>apparently, don't require a license
>no matter what they are
>used for.

https://youtu.be/GP_1R1OtgaI
"

Business or pleasure?

The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
^^^ Thx.

Like I've said, my issue is with WYOGA more than anything. Their constant desire to cut out special privileges for themselves, whether its this bill, apparently horse rentals, or the NR Wilderness Area rule is my issue. The law needs to be applied equally to everybody. No more special-interest groups!

Either everybody can do something or nobody can.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
>It's not the cost of a
>license or anything. That's not
>what this bill is about.
>It's not that they just
>want me to pay a
>yearly fee. What the outfitters
>want is to eliminate me
>and anyone like me from
>providing information to others. The
>bill is written however to
>allow them to provide the
>information if they want. The
>general public guys behind the
>bill just want to stop
>me and others like me
>from sharing information most likely
>to reduce competition for them,
>but represent that it's for
>the good of deer. I'm
>sure the general public guys
>don't want the outfitters to
>do it either, but allowed
>that excpetion in the bill
>in hopes it would have
>a better chance of passing.
>
>That's what I believe.
>
>Outfitters and the state control who
>gets into the club, so
>in the end, they'd control
>who gets to share information.
>
>
>Heck, I would have no problem
>paying for a license, permit,
>whatever (within reason) if that's
>all it was about. (Although
>I still don't think the
>state should restrict my speech)
>
>But that's not what it's about.
>It's about protecting business for
>one group and reducing competition
>for trophy bucks for the
>other. Those two groups are
>usually against each other, but
>the enemy of your enemy
>is your friend sometimes.
>
>This bill has nothing to do
>with protecting a resource, it's
>all about eliminating competition, especially
>from some guy from Utah.
>
>The folks I help still have
>a deer tag and will
>still go hunting whether I
>help them or not. Their
>success rate is most likely
>going to be the same
>whether I help them or
>not. So, the herd as
>a whole is not hurt
>at all. The only affect
>my information has is that
>the average 5-8 year old
>buck doing the breeding come
>winter might have smaller antlers,
>as my client may have
>killed a larger antlered 5-8
>year old buck because of
>my intell.
>
>I think it's clear what the
>bill is all about. It's
>all about, "shut up Founder
>about where the best bucks
>live, cause we don't want
>other people messing up our
>chances".
>
>
>>What are we actually talking here
>>in cost if the bill
>>passed and guys were made
>>to be licensed?
>>
>>Is this an expensive, onerous process?
>>Or are we talking $65
>>and fill out an application?
>>
>>
>>Just trying to weigh the reasonableness
>>of the requirement.
>>
>>Grizzly
>>
>>-----------------------------------------
>>
>>"It's time to revisit the widely
>>accepted principle in the United
>>States and Canada that game
>>is a public resource."
>>-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>>quoted in Anchorage Daily News
>>
>
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>on Facebook!

I'm sure everything you describe above is accurate...you know the inside baseball far better than I do. What I've read of the WYOGA...I'm not a big fan at all. Seems they are always trying to screw anyone who isn't a paying client. However...2 points:

1) Why not just link up with an outfitter as an employee offering this service? If there is demand (i.e., $$$) - and you know as an outfitter your competition may offer this - why not work out an arrangement? If this bill passes I would think your phone will be ringing with licensed outfitters wanting to hire you to manage this new endeavor.

2) While I'm sure there are many less than fair reasons this legislation is proposed...there are some legitimate concerns with needing to regulate this activity.

Safety is a big one - sending some uninformed non-resident into remote country with a dot on a map could turn out poorly. I'm not suggesting you do this...but without regulation, and with a profit motive - less responsible or caring people could end up enabling a scenario where someone not prepared to handle the elements is injured/lost/dies as a result of relying on some gps coordinates to find an animal...hunting an area they never would have gone to on their own. Heck - look at how many people get in trouble following there car gps on remote roads to get to some destination!

Managing pressure is another legitimate concern. Most states and federal land managers limit how much commercial activity occurs in an area or on a forest. An outfitter does not have free rein to guide clients anywhere in the state or country. In that sense, I can understand wanting to license people doing what your doing so there are not 1000 commercial outfits operating in Region G/H.

Anyways - just some thoughts. I will admit though - I'm not a supporter of the direction WYOGA tends to lean nor do I support the further commercialization of hunting...this bill puts a limit on the commercialization aspect (by at least regulating it in some fashion) so I am inclined to support the bill...a lesser of two evils from my perspective.
 
+1 to what DirtyTough said. Too many people worryin about the wrong things. If ya wanna help the deer, find some way to help the does survive.

I can't understand how you all can gripe about Founder when you all are members of a website that is made for sharing information to kill bigger and better animals.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-17 AT 05:52PM (MST)[p]"I can't understand how you all can gripe about Founder when you all are members of a website that is made for sharing information to kill bigger and better animals"

+1000 Finally, someone boils it down to one sentence.

What is the name of this website again??? Oh that's right: MONSTER MULEYS!

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>I'm going to throw something out
>there to those of you
>that answered..."if it's legal, I
>have no problem with it."
>
>
>Slavery was once legal...women were not
>legally allowed to vote once...people
>are legally stoned to death
>in some countries....you can legally
>use a scope on a
>muzzle loader in Utah...It's legal
>to carry a rifle that
>has an adjustable turret and
>then shoot at an animal
>at 1000 + yards....You can
>bait deer in some states...Marijuana
>is becoming legal in many
>states....the "bump stock" attachment in
>the shooting in Las Vegas...I
>could go on!
>
>So...you Folks only have a problem
>with something if it's illegal???
>For the record...I agree and
>disagree with stuff regardless of
>the legality.
>
>So to answers the OP's question...Yes
>I do see a problem
>with it. To me, this
>is another instance in which
>you take the true meaning
>of the word "hunting" out
>of the equation. These type
>of people are not welcome
>in my camp...and we probably
>wouldn't miss each other LOL.
>
>
>56 years old.

You make a damn good point! I miss the good old days! Bring back slavery, women not voting and not speaking in public! With the pro-marijuana laws people can now get legally stoned here, but no one has ever died from it.

As far as what founder does, it's nobodies fuggin' business and I wish all the best to him and all you crybaby, sniveling little bitczhes should mind your own business and fugg off as well! If you don't like it, delete your mm account and let the door slam your azz so hard it leaves splinters!

I'm 46 years old and don't see what fugg-all age has to do with this!

I swear to fetch, guys on here have sandier phaginas than the entire california coast.
 
If I were you guys myself included I'd not expand on this topic too far with the WGFD or wyomings outfitters. I'm sure they would love to use some of our comments to get this bill passed through. I've looked at both sides of the spectrum and this one is something to not get to excited to get the bill passed. It's dam easy to get a contractors license in utah. Much harder than california and other states. If for anything vote against the bill whether you like founder or not. Do it for yourselves for the chance to keep the American dream alive for your kids and grandkids. So that you can start your own business with as few regulations as possible and be super sucessful. I'll tell you it's very scary that in this country most young people (my generation) want a socialist society and giving the govt. more control makes it that much easier. And I don't want a socialist society where everyone is equal. It's downright hell and scares the sh!t out of me to think we should live that way look at how well it is working for countries that do it.

"We don't have a gun problem we have prescription drug problem."
 
>If for anything vote against
>the bill whether you like
>founder or not. Do it
>for yourselves for the chance
>to keep the American dream
>alive for your kids and
>grandkids. So that you can
>start your own business with
>as few regulations as possible
>and be super sucessful.

Part of what makes this country so great is the North American Model of Wildlife Management...the cornerstone of which is public ownership of the wildlife. A bill that regulates and limits the further commercialization of our wildlife is not an assault on the American dream...its quite the opposite.
 
I could go on and on about why I am opposed to what Founder is doing, along with why I wish outfitting/guiding would disappear in most areas, but I just can't get over the fact that a trophy hunter would sell out! No way in hell would I EVER consider putting a price on a "1%er", let alone multiple!! Just makes no sense at all to me and is pretty sad IMO. Anything to make a buck or kill a buck now days!

Funniest part to me is I watched one of Founders scouting videos earlier this year, and I remember him saying he can't find any 190+ bucks...?hmmm. Granted the winter was rough, but when you're selling coordinates to the only shooter bucks you're finding every year, at what point do you point the finger at yourself and think your little business might possibly be shooting yourself in the foot by lowering the average harvest age in the area?

To each their own I guess, but #####'s getting out of control.
 
Beyond outfitters, horse wrangles, motel owners, private property owner, information peddles, and trail camera many factors.........

Does the public ownership of wildlife and the publiic's relentless demand to hunt/harvest ever collide with declining big game populations?

What does the North American Model of Wildlife Manageent recommend when that happens?

DC
 
It would be difficult for one who has no problem with guided hunts (where another not only scouts the game, but then also packs one's gear up the mountain, cooks one's meals, helps to re-locate the quarry and then pack it out again) to make a case against one small piece of the total package (ie. scouting the game). That said, the more help one receives, the more degraded his own accomplishments. Quite frankly, I can't understand why some people even bother to hunt, as their own participation in "their" kill amounts to nothing.
 
It is pretty obvious that this argument is not going to be won or lost on this thread. We each believe what we believe and nothing here is going to change our mind.

I think Founder has shown more than normal tolerance with people who bad mouth him. More than I would. If someone kept coming into my business telling me how I was doing it wrong, I would tell them to go somewhere else.

On the other hand, if I were patronizing a business that had an "I support late term Abortions" in their window, I would stop shopping there. So there is that. Guess it depends on how strongly you feel about the issue. You have made your point, now it is time to fish or cut bait. Because continuing this discussion is getting no where

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Brian, rent out horses to hunters.

When they rent the horse for $1500 they get a trophy buck package as a bonus.

Or, sell a softdrink for $1500. When they buy the drink they get a trophy buck package.

Or, sell a flashlight, then, when they buy the flashlight, they get a trophy buck package.

Get a life guys...you cant stop this from happening. That is the whole point of this website, and gohunt, and onx maps, and ..... the point is to share info to get bucks. Da!

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
>It would be difficult for one
>who has no problem with
>guided hunts (where another not
>only scouts the game, but
>then also packs one's
>gear up the mountain, cooks
>one's meals, helps to re-locate
>the quarry and then pack
>it out again) to make
>a case against one small
>piece of the total package
>(ie. scouting the game).
>That said, the more help
>one receives, the more degraded
>his own accomplishments. Quite
>frankly, I can't understand why
>some people even bother to
>hunt, as their own participation
>in "their" kill amounts to
>nothing.

^^^Now here's someone who gets it^^^

Not arguing legality...just that it takes away from the true experience.
 
You know, when it comes to "pre-season scouting", what percentage of hunters do that at all? Maybe 10%, maybe... So, I really don't think "pre-season scouting" would qualify as part of the hunting experience for most sportsmen. Wouldn't you agree?
So, if that wasn't going to be part of their experience anyway, does the information they get from me really take away from their experience???
I don't think so. 90% of people who hunt western Wyoming don't do any pre-season scouting, so a guy who buys my knowledge is simply part of that 90%. The difference is, I'm sending him to a good spot and all the others are hoping to be going into a good spot.

Heck, I'm the first the say and have shared much on this site encouraging people to scout deer, but the fact is, most people only have so much available time each year. It's easy for me to say, "go scout", because I have a very flexible job and scouting is part of what I do. But for someone with a real job that gives them 3 weeks vacation, a bit tougher to swing.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
>23-3-310. Sale of wildlife location and identification >information for hunting prohibited:

>No person shall advertise or provide to a hunter for remuneration the location and >identification information of any previously scouted big or trophy game animal for the >purpose of aiding the hunter in the taking of that specific previously scouted big or trophy >game animal.


"for he purpose of aiding the hunter in the taking of that .....game animal"

Well if this bill passes you will just have to change your business model and sell information to help people find and photograph big deer. Just be sure to plaster disclaimers all over your website that your information is not intended to help people take big game. Its intended purpose is for photography only.


Such a stupid bill.
 
:D A wise business owner always plans two or three jumps ahead, just in case the "system" changes.

Just saying.

I would wager a info package, regardless of how this House Bill goes, Founder has a plan B. Out of spite/principle if for no other reason.. Winners win, losers lose. It's been the same since we crawled from the sea.

Have a Merry Christmas folks.

DC
 
You know, when it comes to "pre-season scouting", what percentage of hunters do that at all? Maybe 10%, maybe... So, I really don't think "pre-season scouting" would qualify as part of the hunting experience for most sportsmen. Wouldn't you agree?
So, if that wasn't going to be part of their experience anyway, does the information they get from me really take away from their experience???

I think it does take away from the experience if you're actually committed to the hunt rather than the kill.

IME, those that don't want to invest in the experience do so by choice because they aren't willing to sacrifice something to get the job done. Its not because they lack time, its because they don't want to invest in the sport they claim to love so much.

Those that short-cut the experience are robbing themselves of what makes a hunt worth doing. IMO, those that take every short cut they can, where a-holes when they left, and a-holes when they got back.

My hunting is not defined by a kill, but the experiences and dedication it took to get there. From reloading my own ammo, to getting my rifles shooting well, to scouting, learning animal behavior, to stalking, to processing the game, cooking it, etc. etc. etc...the whole experience.

Funny thing is, I remember the difficult hunts, both the successful and unsuccessful ones, wayyyy more than those where I found easy success.

YMMV...
 
After adding up all your comments on this matter founder I've come to the conclusion the only reason you're doing what you're doing is to poke the outfitters in the eye. Close?



#livelikezac
 
>You know, when it comes to
>"pre-season scouting", what percentage of
>hunters do that at all?
>Maybe 10%, maybe... So, I
>really don't think "pre-season scouting"
>would qualify as part of
>the hunting experience for most
>sportsmen. Wouldn't you agree?
>So, if that wasn't going to
>be part of their experience
>anyway, does the information they
>get from me really take
>away from their experience???
>
>I think it does take away
>from the experience if you're
>actually committed to the hunt
>rather than the kill.
>
>IME, those that don't want to
>invest in the experience do
>so by choice because they
>aren't willing to sacrifice something
>to get the job done.
>Its not because they lack
>time, its because they don't
>want to invest in the
>sport they claim to love
>so much.
>
>Those that short-cut the experience are
>robbing themselves of what makes
>a hunt worth doing. IMO,
>those that take every short
>cut they can, where a-holes
>when they left, and a-holes
>when they got back.
>
>My hunting is not defined by
>a kill, but the experiences
>and dedication it took to
>get there. From reloading my
>own ammo, to getting my
>rifles shooting well, to scouting,
>learning animal behavior, to stalking,
>to processing the game, cooking
>it, etc. etc. etc...the whole
>experience.
>
>Funny thing is, I remember the
>difficult hunts, both the successful
>and unsuccessful ones, wayyyy more
>than those where I found
>easy success.
>
>YMMV...

^^^Here's another person that gets it!^^^
 
I'll be scouting in Wyoming. Hopefully will have a tag for myself, but still need to find someone to share their max points and my knowledge with so we can both hunt big bucks in September.
But tag or no tag, I've committed to explore western Wyoming and share my knowledge with an outfitter, as I did last year. I'm sure even if the bill passes, there'll still be a way to share some of the knowledge I gather. I'll obviously abide by the rules.
All this talk has me ready to get after it. Need to get up on the winter range and see what I should be looking for this summer.

I'm betting it won't pass though. It?ll be fun to hear how the sponsors of this bill try to sell it to their colleagues. Hopefully the legislators educate themselves on the whole thing before trusting those pushing the bill. I think if they educate themselves as they should, the bill will be tossed out just like last year.

Hope you all have a safe and Merry Christmas. I think my wife will get me the Lamborghini..........


>:D A wise
>business owner always plans two
>or three jumps ahead, just
>in case the "system" changes.
>
>
>Just saying.
>
>I would wager a info package,
>regardless of how this House
>Bill goes, Founder has a
>plan B. Out of
>spite/principle if for no other
>reason.. Winners win, losers
>lose. It's been the
>same since we crawled from
>the sea.
>
>Have a Merry Christmas folks.
>
>DC


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
If you all don't scout 30 days a year you're not investing in the sport. I hope you're putting your 30 days in BUZZH or you might be one of those guys using a lack of time as an excuse.
Geeesh, jumping up on this high horse and using my situation that allows me to invest 30 days into scouting to put others down makes me feel like a prick. I'm getting down and calling BS on those who think their way is the way.

BTW - the hunting adventure is awesome, but scoring on a trophy at the end makes it a little better.
No?


>You know, when it comes to
>"pre-season scouting", what percentage of
>hunters do that at all?
>Maybe 10%, maybe... So, I
>really don't think "pre-season scouting"
>would qualify as part of
>the hunting experience for most
>sportsmen. Wouldn't you agree?
>So, if that wasn't going to
>be part of their experience
>anyway, does the information they
>get from me really take
>away from their experience???
>
>I think it does take away
>from the experience if you're
>actually committed to the hunt
>rather than the kill.
>
>IME, those that don't want to
>invest in the experience do
>so by choice because they
>aren't willing to sacrifice something
>to get the job done.
>Its not because they lack
>time, its because they don't
>want to invest in the
>sport they claim to love
>so much.
>
>Those that short-cut the experience are
>robbing themselves of what makes
>a hunt worth doing. IMO,
>those that take every short
>cut they can, where a-holes
>when they left, and a-holes
>when they got back.
>
>My hunting is not defined by
>a kill, but the experiences
>and dedication it took to
>get there. From reloading my
>own ammo, to getting my
>rifles shooting well, to scouting,
>learning animal behavior, to stalking,
>to processing the game, cooking
>it, etc. etc. etc...the whole
>experience.
>
>Funny thing is, I remember the
>difficult hunts, both the successful
>and unsuccessful ones, wayyyy more
>than those where I found
>easy success.
>
>YMMV...


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
I would guess that is not his motivation. However, if it were, I certainly wouldn't admit it on a public forum. Just ammunition for the other side.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I'm not anti-outfitter at all. I completely see the need for one for many people. No, no. In fact for some people in certain situations I'd for sure recommend they use the services of an outfitter.
The outfitter I work with I'm sure wants the bill to pass. We simply have opposing opinions. No biggie. We can still work together.
I do have a problem with an outfitter who lies about me and tries to portray me as the problem, as Wiley did.

I'm not sharing information to get at anyone or hurt anyone?s business. I do it to pay for my time to be looking for me a deer and to help out a few dudes and to get to spend more time in the mountains.


>I would guess that is not
>his motivation. However, if
>it were, I certainly wouldn't
>admit it on a public
>forum. Just ammunition for
>the other side.
>
>txhunter58
>
>venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore
>I am)


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
As many page views as I've got you lately you can just buy that Lamborghini.?



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Well If wg&f caters to the outfitters over the public. If this bill passes, you'll give the outfitters more say and power on your hunting rights and sounds like they'd love to limit the public the wilderness rule is guaranteed revenue to outfitters in Wyoming.

"We don't have a gun problem we have prescription drug problem."
 
I just don't get why Deerdon and Buzz think it takes away from the experience. The hunt doesn't really start for me until I find something to hunt. I wander around looking for a buck. It is pretty tough to find a good buck anymore in the Wyoming Range. Once a buck is found then it takes a good hunter to get the buck. Before you find a buck you are just looking. Hunting starts once you find something to hunt.

What Brian does for a guy is give him an idea of where a buck "might" be. How many of us have done that on here? I personally have sent guys to an exact ridge to get a buck on this site. If that guy gave me $20 would it be against all humanity? If I didn't take it would it make me any better?

No, we give each other advice all the time on this site. Better shut down Eastmans forums too because I helped a guy on there get a buck as well. Better shut down Utah's DWR forums because I helped a guy on there as well. Better shut down Huntn Talk because I helped a guy on there as well. Oh, quit sharing stories on here because occasionally I get a gem from them and I go hunting there as well.

All those guys, paying me or not, must feel really bad that their "hunt" wasnt holy and pure. They should have worn a blindfold to make it just that much harder to find a buck. In fact, why even hunt a good unit. Lets make it a real hunt and hunt some horrible unit and just use archery equipment. Ya! If you use a rifle you must feel guilty inside for using something that gives you an advantage. Ya! Slingshots only on this website. If you drove there too then you cheated! Walk boys! Get out and walk with those sling shots!!!

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-22-17 AT 08:33AM (MST)[p]>I just don't get why Deerdon
>and Buzz think it takes
>away from the experience.
> The hunt doesn't really
>start for me until I
>find something to hunt.
> I wander around looking
>for a buck. It
>is pretty tough to find
>a good buck anymore in
>the Wyoming Range. Once
>a buck is found then
>it takes a good hunter
>to get the buck.
>Before you find a buck
>you are just looking.
>Hunting starts once you find
>something to hunt.
>
>What Brian does for a guy
>is give him an idea
>of where a buck "might"
>be. How many of
>us have done that on
>here? I personally have
>sent guys to an exact
>ridge to get a buck
>on this site. If
>that guy gave me $20
>would it be against all
>humanity? If I didn't
>take it would it make
>me any better?
>
>No, we give each other advice
>all the time on this
>site. Better shut down
>Eastmans forums too because I
>helped a guy on there
>get a buck as well.
>Better shut down Utah's DWR
>forums because I helped a
>guy on there as well.
> Better shut down Huntn
>Talk because I helped a
>guy on there as well.
> Oh, quit sharing stories
>on here because occasionally I
>get a gem from them
>and I go hunting there
>as well.
>
>All those guys, paying me or
>not, must feel really bad
>that their "hunt" wasnt holy
>and pure. They should
>have worn a blindfold to
>make it just that much
>harder to find a buck.
> In fact, why even
>hunt a good unit.
> Lets make it a
>real hunt and hunt some
>horrible unit and just use
>archery equipment. Ya! If
>you use a rifle you
>must feel guilty inside for
>using something that gives you
>an advantage. Ya!
>Slingshots only on this website.
> If you drove there
>too then you cheated!
>Walk boys! Get out
>and walk with those sling
>shots!!!
>
>"The penalty good men pay for
>indifference to public affairs is
>to be ruled by evil
>men." - Plato

When Founders competitor is selling real time GPS coordinates your cool with that too?

When the next guy is "lighting targets" for a LR guy out of sight distance, your great with that too?

Get over the hero worship. Its not about Brian. Its about at what lengths, and what cost we will let things go.

Hornady is introducing bullet cams. The military is r&d GPS guided bullets. The military already "lights targets".

At some point can we stop with the hero worship and big schlong contest and actually decide that perhaps we need to have a minimal standard? Is it too much to expect a hunter to ACTUALLY BE IN THE FIELD?

Its only about Brian because this is Monster Muleys. It has nothing to do with the man(I still can't believe HE would sell), its about a newer industry. How far until we as hunters say, ENOUGH.?

I totally agree with Founder. The guides are trying to eliminate competition. If his info sucked, he wouldn't be competition, so stop with the "he's just some random internet dude", we all know who he is, and how damn good he is.

I use gohunt. Read the access tips. Its extremely vague. Founder may be saying "a buck was here two weeks ago", his competitor in order to beat Founder will need to be more specific, more real time.

I fail to grasp why drones are a bad thing, but a guy(s) on the mtn. with a sat phone is different. The outcome is the same.

Im all for setting a standard. No trail cams, scouting reports, etc, 2 weeks prior to the opener(pick your timeframe). But right now there is none, and its king the thing that we all supposedly love, HUNTING, especially world class animals at a success rate that nature can't replace.

Brian wasn't the first. He sure as hell won't be the last.

Or, shall we just have a free for all? And if that's the case, so be it.

Where does Founder draw the line? Does he believe there should even be one? I'm curious as to his thoughts, not as professional, but as a guy who is on the mtn a ton.

Personally I like the open sight idea.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>>Hornady is introducing bullet cams.
>
>This is beside the point but
>simply curious, this was an
>april fools joke right?

http://americanshootingjournal.com/vortex-hornady-bullet-cam/

-Back to hossblur's post, he makes some good points. And they are responses to valid points by Founder.

This issue maybe should be left to personal ethics instead of Legislation; but then again I support the ban of drones while hunting, so it's tough to discern where to draw the line.

I don't really have an ethical complaint against outfitters, so I certainly can't see one with Founder. Certainly his business model is less of a threat against the resource than the guide physically watching the animal through the shot. My only issue is whether a commercial permit should be required... and I can see both sides of that argument as well.

PS. I have a ton of Wyoming deer points, which I feel have some value. If Founder and I put in together so he gained some of my points and I gained some of his knowledge, I could argue we exchanged "consideration" but I don't feel that's unethical. That would just be two guys working together for a passion of hunting... and isn't that part of what our sport is all about?

Good discussion, all.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
No. It not a joke. Science. Innovation. Using physics. New tools to do a job better. For good or evil. Human DNA drives for the next tool. It's how we crawled from the sea to the moon and beyond.

Cool, huh! See it as a marvel not a joke. Our future is bright. As we discover it, we also learn how to manage it, but there are failures along the trail.

Celebrate human nature!!!!

DC
 
I wont address the personal attacks above. They are baseless.

This was said above
____________________________

I have a ton of Wyoming deer points, which I feel have some value. If Founder and I put in together so he gained some of my points and I gained some of his knowledge, I could argue we exchanged "consideration" but I don't feel that's unethical. That would just be two guys working together for a passion of hunting... and isn't that part of what our sport is all about?

Good discussion, all.

Grizzly
_______________________________

Exactly.

And if I buy a drink for a guy....and he gives me an idea of where to find a buck...with words, pics, maps...whatever....did he "RUIN" my hunt? Make it less sporting? No.

And neither does giving any of us an idea of where to go find a buck. You CANNOT tell me you will be able to regulate this. I buy a guy a tank of gas for $1000 and get back a GPS coordinate for a buck. Good luck regulating this.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
"I don't believe it's unethical"

Heavy on the "I". That the final tine we ever need to discuss etihics. It's absolutely true, on all ethic issues. PERIOD. PUT A FORK IN IT.

DC
 
Founder, when I draw a G tag this year.....

I would like to buy you a really great tank of gas.

Or call you for your opinion on where to place my fire pit in the back yard.

I am willing to pay $1500 for your opinion on my fire pit.

Hey, lets talk about hunting when we meet up.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
If a scouting service is regulated you can enforce it. Same as you enforce contractors licenses.

I hate "ethics", I realize this is where we are tiptoe ing, but when that word comes in it becomes personal. What's best for the resource, while not cutting out hunters?

You can play "what if" all day, so is that an excuse to do nothing.

How about this:

MULE DEER ONLY

LE units-primitive weapon only. 2 seasons, bow/side hammer muzzy

Open units. Open sight, red dot, 1x scope.

Professional scouting, guide scouting, trail cams. 2 week prior to archery season prohibited.
(Yes, locals get an advantage on that because they are there).

Something along those lines everybody gives a little. Success rates go down. Might see more and bigger deer.


Founder can still scout, guide can still guide, rifle guy can still shoot that .375 super mag.

Or do we sit and pretend that every year tech isn't chipping away at hunting?

Did our grand dads never kill deer because they were using 30-30 and old Enfield?



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Founder
Just tell me where you lost that button off your coat up there with some GPS cordinates and I will try and find it when I'm up the hunting.
I'm will to have ya check out my property in Ut and give me some idea's willing to pay ya for the service call.




"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
They killed some big ones with those tools hoss...................cuz they was there to kill! Image that. Nay, don't............ too painful........... speaking from personal "imagining" experience.

DC
 
2Lumpy, you are 2funny, I am able to understand a lot of guys.... but your posts just make me laugh...I dont know what you are saying half the time. I must have missed the class where they taught huntn speekn' :)

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
"If a scouting service is regulated you can enforce it. Same as you enforce contractors licenses."

"Professional scouting, guide scouting, trail cams. 2 week prior to archery season prohibited.
(Yes, locals get an advantage on that because they are there)."

So a friend that you are going hunting with can't go up 1 week before and scout and then tell you what he sees? You would make that illegal in your scenario.

And NO, you can't regulate it like you are talking about. Tell me how you can tell if someone is just out for a stroll on public lands, vs scouting for himself, vs. "scouting" for someone else? Founder I am sure would abide by the law, but others won't and there is no way to prove that someone is "scouting" for someone else. A phone call leaves no paper trail and unless they do "stings" and record phone conversations, you won't have any evidence. So they get photos and maps and locations before the deadline and a phone call after. So easy to get around.

You are trying to herd cats and it won't work. Please read the regs that "outlawed" tag brokers in Colorado. Seems really straightforward and should have done the trick. Not! This will fail worse than that.

The only thing that would work is a complete ban in scouting for pay. Don't think that would pass the America is free test.

You have a valid point of view, it is just not one that will get anywhere.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-22-17 AT 04:30PM (MST)[p]Gal Dangit Aspen, you sound a hell of lot like my wife!!! :D

""If any man have ears to hear, let him hear!""

DC
 
>"If a scouting service is regulated
>you can enforce it. Same
>as you enforce contractors licenses."
>
>
>"Professional scouting, guide scouting, trail cams.
>2 week prior to archery
>season prohibited.
>(Yes, locals get an advantage on
>that because they are there)."
>
>
>So a friend that you are
>going hunting with can't go
>up 1 week before and
>scout and then tell you
>what he sees? You
>would make that illegal in
>your scenario.
>
>And NO, you can't regulate it
>like you are talking about.
> Tell me how you
>can tell if someone is
>just out for a stroll
>on public lands, vs scouting
>for himself, vs. "scouting" for
>someone else? Founder I
>am sure would abide by
>the law, but others won't
>and there is no way
>to prove that someone is
>"scouting" for someone else.
>A phone call leaves no
>paper trail and unless they
>do "stings" and record phone
>conversations, you won't have any
>evidence. So they get
>photos and maps and locations
>before the deadline and a
>phone call after. So
>easy to get around.
>
>You are trying to herd cats
>and it won't work.
>Please read the regs that
>"outlawed" tag brokers in Colorado.
> Seems really straightforward and
>should have done the trick.
>Not! This will fail
>worse than that.
>
>The only thing that would work
>is a complete ban in
>scouting for pay. Don't think
>that would pass the America
>is free test.
>
>You have a valid point of
>view, it is just not
>one that will get anywhere.
>
>
>txhunter58
>
>venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore
>I am)

I have been checked twice in the last 3yrs by the state of Utah. They run a sting. Have me come bid, try to get me to bid outside my license.

I can't access the WMA around here prior to waterfowl season to scout. Now, sure I can hop a fence, etc, but the majority don't.

I mean no disrespect personally. But to most of us in the west, the hunting that you guys in Texas do, and get used to scares the hell out of us. The hunting via professional isn't what 90%of us want. If I'm not mistaken doesn't Montana have a trail cam law? And guides, easy to police that.

As for your "friend" scouting. Its a small world in the high country. Not been there but I'm betting most of the locals knew Founder a long time ago.

There no law here against ground pounding pheasants or pond shooting ducks. Most guys just don't. My bet is Founder will follow whatever law comes at him.
Just like I'm betting other would be "scouts" will do anything for fame or money. Those are the dudes we should be concerned with.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I bet even Jeremiah Johnson offered the Indians a snort or some beads to tell him where the Bison were last seen, or the location of a beaver pond.

It's human nature, so get off your high horses...
 
Preseason scouting is the best part of my hunt. It lasts for week and allows me to enjoy every aspect of the hunt except pulling the trigger and dragging a buck--and without all the other people on the mountain. It is what gives me the confidence to know which buck to shoot and prevents me from killing the first decent buck I see. My scouting trips are what build excitement for the real thing. But, the fact that I see so few people out tells me that you are right--most people stay home until the season opener.
 
0ld fashioned is..... is .... is ........ Old fashioned . We don't do Old Fashioned nooooooo mo.

DC
 
>I bet even Jeremiah Johnson offered
>the Indians a snort or
>some beads to tell him
>where the Bison were last
>seen, or the location of
>a beaver pond.
>
>It's human nature, so get off
>your high horses...

Howd that turn out for the bison or beaver?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-23-17 AT 06:20AM (MST)[p]Hoss. Please stop assuming all Texans are like some taxidermists. 95%+ are not. I have been on 2 guided hunts in my life and decades of DIY hunts. Also own land in Colorado and love what public land means in the west. The reason Texas is the way it is is because it is basically all private. And all efforts to privatize western public lands will be strongly opposed by me. As I have stated repeatedly, I think anyone who blocks access to public lands should not be allowed to lease it or outfit on it. It is obvious if you were king, there would be no outfitting of any kind. With that I disagree as do I about scouting. Is there a hunting method that goes too far? Sure. But we just draw the lines in a different place. I wish all muzzy hunts were actually primative. And I fought allowing crossbows in Texas during bow season. I am sure many like you oppose what founder is doing for pure hunting reasons. But I also believe that the main thrust to try and get him stopped is coming from his competitors. I think many things already allowed are much worse than scouters. Such as having a guide locate an animal and basically sit on him until the hunter arrives.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Just for some background info on how this was ever brought up to be proposed. Many residents hunters and also game and fish were opposed to this service. We ( we as in the residents sportsmen) didn't get together though and lobby to have it stopped. It was well know by most of us that there were actions taking place to make this service illegal. WYOGA and also muley fanatic lobbied together for the proposed change.

When the masses seen how it was written to say we were pissed would be a huge understatement. There is public record of myself and others voicing our displeasure of how it was wrote up and who backed it.

Take all of this for what it is worth just thought I would shed some light on a few things that seem to be very misunderstood about this.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-23-17 AT 06:42AM (MST)[p]That said the law has more holes than a fishing net. Not worth the paper it is written on. So I can understand why you would be pissed. Prob written so narrowly so that it would be legal. But as is will be a waste of taxpayers money to write and record.

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
Question. How can you write a law that outlaws scouting for pay without outlawing someone writing a magazine article about a trophy area and publishing that for pay. The article does a lot more damage to a unit /area than any scouters but no law banning it would be legal

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
hoss, it wasn't the Indian scouting service that caused the demise of the Bison and beaver. It was the failure of the Indians to issue tags or set a daily bag and possession limit. :D

97172deliverancebanjo.jpg
 
Tx what fired me up more than anything is the fact it would allow guides and outfitters to do the very thing it is trying to stop people like founder from doing.

WYOGA at its finest and personally I might add it is very discouraging to see who they seem to be bringing along for the ride.
 
I'm in total support of this service.
I think it helps so many different age groups of hunters.

1) Young inexperienced hunters 16 to 30 YO. (That didn't have a love one teach them these skills) So should they just run blind into the mountains not knowing what dangers came and sometimes do happen? We all say we need to keep our hunting life style alive! Can't do it if there's no new hunters coming up!

2) Young family men and women 25 to 35 that are raising their families, who want to learn how to hunt to share then formation and life style with their family. And mostly want to bring home meat for the family

3) Older Guys 50 to 65 who can't get around like their younger days that have been drawing for a tag for 20 plus years. And those who now have moderate emphysema from years of smoking like an idiot as I did! And the ones that have zero hunting skills compared to a lot of my MM friends! Can't afford a fully guided hunt. But still want to live that dream.

Thanks for your time

Joe


"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 

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