Gov sheep tag update
- Thread starter hossblur
- Start date
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
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- 3,014
LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-16 AT 05:07PM (MST)[p]Wrong Tristate. What I said in prior posts and I will repeat myself here is I don't do criminal defense work (thank goodness) and I am fortunate enough to able to choose clients that I want to work for. As a result, I would likely never represent Mr. Lemon or anyone else on a matter like this.
Pookie, you raise some interesting points. I will tell you this. The DWR has a track record of selectively following and enforcing its rules. A law was clearly violated. However, I suspect the DWR did not push this matter very hard with the prosecutor, in part, because the DWR also apparently screwed up and didn't want to end up in a mud slinging contest with the outfitter.
Despite the mistakes of the DWR, I maintain that the outfitter, guides and the hunter still had an obligation to know and follow the rules. I never asked for these folks to get lynched but some type of citation or administrative action would have been appropriate. We agree on that point. You claim that you don't see a double standard. I disagree. I highly doubt that you or I would have walked away scott free if we were caught hunting outside our unit regardless of what excuses or explanations we conjured up.
-Hawkeye-
Pookie, you raise some interesting points. I will tell you this. The DWR has a track record of selectively following and enforcing its rules. A law was clearly violated. However, I suspect the DWR did not push this matter very hard with the prosecutor, in part, because the DWR also apparently screwed up and didn't want to end up in a mud slinging contest with the outfitter.
Despite the mistakes of the DWR, I maintain that the outfitter, guides and the hunter still had an obligation to know and follow the rules. I never asked for these folks to get lynched but some type of citation or administrative action would have been appropriate. We agree on that point. You claim that you don't see a double standard. I disagree. I highly doubt that you or I would have walked away scott free if we were caught hunting outside our unit regardless of what excuses or explanations we conjured up.
-Hawkeye-
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,894
LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-16 AT 05:33PM (MST)[p]So hossblur I must be missing something. Did the $95k check bounce. You keep saying that there was a 95k mistake but the state got the money and a sheep died out of a herd that the state said could support a harvest from.
You keep using the house building analogy. The reality is the customer paid the 95k. The house was built to code but the titty babies in the HOA are crying about the welcome mat. They think they should demand the entire house be torn down over this silly little discrepancy that the city said was OK.
You keep using the house building analogy. The reality is the customer paid the 95k. The house was built to code but the titty babies in the HOA are crying about the welcome mat. They think they should demand the entire house be torn down over this silly little discrepancy that the city said was OK.
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,648
>LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-16
>AT 05:33?PM (MST)
>
>So hossblur I must be missing
>something. Did the $95k
>check bounce. You keep
>saying that there was a
>95k mistake but the state
>got the money and a
>sheep died out of a
>herd that the state said
>could support a harvest from.
>
>
>You keep using the house building
>analogy. The reality is
>the customer paid the 95k.
> The house was built
>to code but the titty
>babies in the HOA are
>crying about the welcome mat.
> They think they should
>demand the entire house be
>torn down over this silly
>little discrepancy that the city
>said was OK.
The house was built out of code because the sub asked the inspector in dallas about wiring codes in houston.
#104 and the same question, if wlh really didnt know about the rotation, why did he call?
Last, the unit couldnt support the harvest, thats why there was a rotation.
No, the check cleared, thanks for making our point, again, the check cleared, so all the knuckkeheads can suck it!! I believe your "good friend" Wade already made that point.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
>AT 05:33?PM (MST)
>
>So hossblur I must be missing
>something. Did the $95k
>check bounce. You keep
>saying that there was a
>95k mistake but the state
>got the money and a
>sheep died out of a
>herd that the state said
>could support a harvest from.
>
>
>You keep using the house building
>analogy. The reality is
>the customer paid the 95k.
> The house was built
>to code but the titty
>babies in the HOA are
>crying about the welcome mat.
> They think they should
>demand the entire house be
>torn down over this silly
>little discrepancy that the city
>said was OK.
The house was built out of code because the sub asked the inspector in dallas about wiring codes in houston.
#104 and the same question, if wlh really didnt know about the rotation, why did he call?
Last, the unit couldnt support the harvest, thats why there was a rotation.
No, the check cleared, thanks for making our point, again, the check cleared, so all the knuckkeheads can suck it!! I believe your "good friend" Wade already made that point.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,894
LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-16 AT 06:12PM (MST)[p]You said it was a 95 k mistake but it sure seems like 95 k stayed right in the bank of the DWR. So I guess it isn't a 95k mistake.
The state said the herd at nebo could sustain a ram harvest and it did. So everything worked to biological and fiscal design. The only thing that broke down was the social design AND THAT AIN'T WORTH 95k.
The state said the herd at nebo could sustain a ram harvest and it did. So everything worked to biological and fiscal design. The only thing that broke down was the social design AND THAT AIN'T WORTH 95k.
johnnycake
Active Member
- Messages
- 575
>LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-16
>AT 05:33?PM (MST)
>
>So hossblur I must be missing
>something. Did the $95k
>check bounce. You keep
>saying that there was a
>95k mistake but the state
>got the money and a
>sheep died out of a
>herd that the state said
>could support a harvest from.
>
>
>You keep using the house building
>analogy. The reality is
>the customer paid the 95k.
> The house was built
>to code but the titty
>babies in the HOA are
>crying about the welcome mat.
> They think they should
>demand the entire house be
>torn down over this silly
>little discrepancy that the city
>said was OK.
Rather than a welcome mat, a better analogy would be this: House built to code by licensed contractor---except there is a title problem. The contractor built the house on the wrong lot! Even if the house was only 1" over the property line and a city surveyor said "nah, no big deal" guess what? STILL A TITLE PROBLEM! The only way to correct that would be to approach the neighboring property owner and purchase the land--and if the neighbor doesn't want to play that way, you bet you are going to have to tear down the house if necessary to correct the problem. Too frickin bad. But the homeowner would be indemnified by the contractor and the contractor would eat the expense.
However, you can't simply move the proverbial house back across the line--ram's dead. But there absolutely should be some form of punitive assessment on the parties that committed the error. The rest of the public are the "neighbor" here, not the DWR--the public owns the wildlife in UT. Economics would tell us that that ram is worth, well, $95k apparently. So yeah, a fine in that neighborhood would be appropriate. Moreover, a sense of common decency would tell most people that if you improperly obtain an item, you shouldn't be allowed to keep that item. The ram should be used a shining example to UT's commitment to wildlife enforcement, put on display at the poaching trailer whenever they set up shop. But it won't. Instead, it is a glaring beacon of the double standard the DWR employs to handle wildlife in the state.
>AT 05:33?PM (MST)
>
>So hossblur I must be missing
>something. Did the $95k
>check bounce. You keep
>saying that there was a
>95k mistake but the state
>got the money and a
>sheep died out of a
>herd that the state said
>could support a harvest from.
>
>
>You keep using the house building
>analogy. The reality is
>the customer paid the 95k.
> The house was built
>to code but the titty
>babies in the HOA are
>crying about the welcome mat.
> They think they should
>demand the entire house be
>torn down over this silly
>little discrepancy that the city
>said was OK.
Rather than a welcome mat, a better analogy would be this: House built to code by licensed contractor---except there is a title problem. The contractor built the house on the wrong lot! Even if the house was only 1" over the property line and a city surveyor said "nah, no big deal" guess what? STILL A TITLE PROBLEM! The only way to correct that would be to approach the neighboring property owner and purchase the land--and if the neighbor doesn't want to play that way, you bet you are going to have to tear down the house if necessary to correct the problem. Too frickin bad. But the homeowner would be indemnified by the contractor and the contractor would eat the expense.
However, you can't simply move the proverbial house back across the line--ram's dead. But there absolutely should be some form of punitive assessment on the parties that committed the error. The rest of the public are the "neighbor" here, not the DWR--the public owns the wildlife in UT. Economics would tell us that that ram is worth, well, $95k apparently. So yeah, a fine in that neighborhood would be appropriate. Moreover, a sense of common decency would tell most people that if you improperly obtain an item, you shouldn't be allowed to keep that item. The ram should be used a shining example to UT's commitment to wildlife enforcement, put on display at the poaching trailer whenever they set up shop. But it won't. Instead, it is a glaring beacon of the double standard the DWR employs to handle wildlife in the state.
pookiebar
Active Member
- Messages
- 580
LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-16 AT 07:08PM (MST)[p]Alright having worked in Real Estate for 8 years I follow what you are trying to compare to Johnny. Your analogy is MOSTLY right. Problem is WLH (the builder) did his diligence as best he understood, and contacted the DWR (state surveyor). The surveyor "looked" at where he intended to build (hunt) and said you are good to go. OOPS!! the surveyor looked at the wrong plat map, title problem exists. Sounds like the state gets a lawsuit for providing wrong information. Ultimately the house is torn down, the builder gets to charge the $95 K to the state for building the new home, cause the freaking state official provided the wrong information.
Hoss, you're so far out of your league on arguing at this point that you might as well go back to framing, or wiring or whatever it is you do.
Hawkeye, I am waiting for a PM. Not being willing to consider the matter is just silly to me. I would NEVER take on a non-profit as a client, too much of a pain. But I would certainly do my best to understand an argument or point regarding a financial problem they have because hey I just might learn something in the process. Just curious, have you ever met or talked with Wade? I am not a client of his, never have been. But I do know him. And I know him to be a good man. Might have made a mistake here, but I think this was just a screw up. Don't know what type of citation would apply. Also don't know if one might still be issued. I do think that the largest part of blame lies with the state on this one. But it looks like we will just have to disagree on it.
Hoss, you're so far out of your league on arguing at this point that you might as well go back to framing, or wiring or whatever it is you do.
Hawkeye, I am waiting for a PM. Not being willing to consider the matter is just silly to me. I would NEVER take on a non-profit as a client, too much of a pain. But I would certainly do my best to understand an argument or point regarding a financial problem they have because hey I just might learn something in the process. Just curious, have you ever met or talked with Wade? I am not a client of his, never have been. But I do know him. And I know him to be a good man. Might have made a mistake here, but I think this was just a screw up. Don't know what type of citation would apply. Also don't know if one might still be issued. I do think that the largest part of blame lies with the state on this one. But it looks like we will just have to disagree on it.
pookiebar
Active Member
- Messages
- 580
This is a non-argument. NOTHING says which office he has to contact.
There are certain state codes and laws regarding building as well. On the STATE level codes it would not matter which inspector you contacted. If the STATE OFFICIAL in Dallas said you are good to go when it is a STATE WIDE CODE then the STATE official provided wrong information. The STATE gets to foot the bill for their mistake.
Do you understand there is a difference between National law, State law, County law, and City codes? Hope this helps pumpkin.
There are certain state codes and laws regarding building as well. On the STATE level codes it would not matter which inspector you contacted. If the STATE OFFICIAL in Dallas said you are good to go when it is a STATE WIDE CODE then the STATE official provided wrong information. The STATE gets to foot the bill for their mistake.
Do you understand there is a difference between National law, State law, County law, and City codes? Hope this helps pumpkin.
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,894
Actually not the same. Then there is a fiscal difference and someone looses a bunch of money. Nobody lost anyone money here.
Could it be that there is no good analogy which translates accurately?
Could it be our game laws have been so corrupted by social pressure that nothing is really similar anymore?
Could it be that there is no good analogy which translates accurately?
Could it be our game laws have been so corrupted by social pressure that nothing is really similar anymore?
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,648
>Alright having worked in Real Estate
>for 8 years I follow
>what you are trying to
>compare to Johnny. Your
>analogy is MOSTLY right.
>Problem is WLH (the builder)
>did his diligence as best
>he understood, and contacted the
>DWR (state surveyor). The
>surveyor "looked" at where he
>intended to build (hunt) and
>said you are good to
>go. OOPS!! the surveyor
>looked at the wrong plat
>map, title problem exists.
>Sounds like the state gets
>a lawsuit for providing wrong
>information. Ultimately the house
>is torn down, the builder
>gets to charge the $95
>K to the state for
>building the new home, cause
>the freaking state official provided
>the wrong information.
>
>Hoss, you're so far out of
>your league on arguing at
>this point that you might
>as well go back to
>framing, or wiring or whatever
>it is you do.
>
>Hawkeye, I am waiting for a
>PM. You're non answer
>is silly to me.
>I would NEVER take on
>a non-profit as a client,
>too much of a pain.
> But I would certainly
>do my best to understand
>an argument or point regarding
>their problem because hey I
>just might learn something in
>the process. Not to
>mention have you ever met
>or talked with Wade?
>I am not a client
>of his, never have been.
> But I do know
>him. And I know
>him to be a good
>man. Might have made
>a mistake here, but for
>you to say you would
>never take him on as
>a client is just ridiculous.
>
#108, still havent heard why he would call dwr IF he didnt know there was a rule.
$95k is what i read was paid for the tag, if thats a wrong ammount, so be it.
The point of construction example is simple, all trades are licensed by dopl, therefore wlh imo should get to have a chat with license board. I looked, cant seem to find guides code book, only that its based on some 2006 agreement?
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
>for 8 years I follow
>what you are trying to
>compare to Johnny. Your
>analogy is MOSTLY right.
>Problem is WLH (the builder)
>did his diligence as best
>he understood, and contacted the
>DWR (state surveyor). The
>surveyor "looked" at where he
>intended to build (hunt) and
>said you are good to
>go. OOPS!! the surveyor
>looked at the wrong plat
>map, title problem exists.
>Sounds like the state gets
>a lawsuit for providing wrong
>information. Ultimately the house
>is torn down, the builder
>gets to charge the $95
>K to the state for
>building the new home, cause
>the freaking state official provided
>the wrong information.
>
>Hoss, you're so far out of
>your league on arguing at
>this point that you might
>as well go back to
>framing, or wiring or whatever
>it is you do.
>
>Hawkeye, I am waiting for a
>PM. You're non answer
>is silly to me.
>I would NEVER take on
>a non-profit as a client,
>too much of a pain.
> But I would certainly
>do my best to understand
>an argument or point regarding
>their problem because hey I
>just might learn something in
>the process. Not to
>mention have you ever met
>or talked with Wade?
>I am not a client
>of his, never have been.
> But I do know
>him. And I know
>him to be a good
>man. Might have made
>a mistake here, but for
>you to say you would
>never take him on as
>a client is just ridiculous.
>
#108, still havent heard why he would call dwr IF he didnt know there was a rule.
$95k is what i read was paid for the tag, if thats a wrong ammount, so be it.
The point of construction example is simple, all trades are licensed by dopl, therefore wlh imo should get to have a chat with license board. I looked, cant seem to find guides code book, only that its based on some 2006 agreement?
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
pookiebar
Active Member
- Messages
- 580
No Tri it IS the same. The state lost a sheep. Apparently the sheep is worth (wait for it) $95K!!
So ultimately the state "foots the bill" in the lost sheep (no christian pun intended). If the ram hadn't been killed this year, you sure as hell could bet that WLH and every other guide service would have pictures of him for next year's auction. Tag would have probably sold for at least $95K.
So ultimately the state "foots the bill" in the lost sheep (no christian pun intended). If the ram hadn't been killed this year, you sure as hell could bet that WLH and every other guide service would have pictures of him for next year's auction. Tag would have probably sold for at least $95K.
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,648
>SO let me get this right
>Hoss . . .
>
>You have never called an inspector
>or anybody and wondered if
>you remembered a code correctly??
> Then if given the
>WRONG information you didn't argue
>the hell out how it
>wasn't your fault?
>
>You are full of #####!!
Sure i have. But i called the inspector for the city i was in, not one 200 miles away. I also didnt claim i didnt kow there was a code, then call an inspector. Last, when i did screw up, i got the job redtagged, the city didt look the other way and say everyone makes mistakes.
Hey Tri, you better get in the mule deer forum, they are prosecuting another poacher in there, ruining another life over a mistake.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
>Hoss . . .
>
>You have never called an inspector
>or anybody and wondered if
>you remembered a code correctly??
> Then if given the
>WRONG information you didn't argue
>the hell out how it
>wasn't your fault?
>
>You are full of #####!!
Sure i have. But i called the inspector for the city i was in, not one 200 miles away. I also didnt claim i didnt kow there was a code, then call an inspector. Last, when i did screw up, i got the job redtagged, the city didt look the other way and say everyone makes mistakes.
Hey Tri, you better get in the mule deer forum, they are prosecuting another poacher in there, ruining another life over a mistake.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,648
>No Tri it IS the same.
> The state lost a
>sheep. Apparently the sheep
>is worth (wait for it)
>$95K!!
>
>So ultimately the state "foots the
>bill" in the lost
>sheep (no christian pun intended).
> If the ram hadn't
>been killed this year, you
>sure as hell could bet
>that WLH and every other
>guide service would have pictures
>of him for next year's
>auction. Tag would have
>probably sold for at least
>$95K.
We keep forgetting there was a legal hunter, chasing this sheep. You know, a $10 knucklehead. That dude seems to be forgotten when everyone claims mistakes are made or no harm, no foul.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
> The state lost a
>sheep. Apparently the sheep
>is worth (wait for it)
>$95K!!
>
>So ultimately the state "foots the
>bill" in the lost
>sheep (no christian pun intended).
> If the ram hadn't
>been killed this year, you
>sure as hell could bet
>that WLH and every other
>guide service would have pictures
>of him for next year's
>auction. Tag would have
>probably sold for at least
>$95K.
We keep forgetting there was a legal hunter, chasing this sheep. You know, a $10 knucklehead. That dude seems to be forgotten when everyone claims mistakes are made or no harm, no foul.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
Pookie-
Pm sent.
Slow down and read more carefully. I did not say that I would NEVER represent a nonprofit. In fact, I have have represented several nonprofits over the years but I'm not sure how that is relevant to the present issue. Likewise, I never said Wade Lemon is a bad guy. What I said was I don't do criminal defense work and "I would likely never represent Mr. Lemon or anyone else on a matter like this."
Let's all stop wasting our time with analogies and focus on reality. They killed a trophy ram on a unit that was close to them in violation of the law. Surely somebody is responsible for that dead sheep. So who is it? The DWR? The outfitter and guides? Or the Hunter?
-Hawkeye-
Pm sent.
Slow down and read more carefully. I did not say that I would NEVER represent a nonprofit. In fact, I have have represented several nonprofits over the years but I'm not sure how that is relevant to the present issue. Likewise, I never said Wade Lemon is a bad guy. What I said was I don't do criminal defense work and "I would likely never represent Mr. Lemon or anyone else on a matter like this."
Let's all stop wasting our time with analogies and focus on reality. They killed a trophy ram on a unit that was close to them in violation of the law. Surely somebody is responsible for that dead sheep. So who is it? The DWR? The outfitter and guides? Or the Hunter?
-Hawkeye-
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,894
I have thought long and hard about this and really there has been no harm biologically to the herd or any herd of sheep for that matter. If there was any harm done to a sheep herd then that rests only on the DWR for saying a ram can be killed out of a herd that couldn't sustain it. By the way the DWR said a ram could be killed out of this herd for the past two seasons and no ram was killed. So we should be fine from a biological offtake angle here. As for a fiscal problem I can't see where any one has been wronged. The state was paid and the hunters received product, a sheep tag. I can't find any evidence, and neither can anyone else, that anyone involved was defrauded. In fact we can find evidence of due diligence with all parties involved. No one here can actually say the state hunter is getting screwed because he can still legally hunt any of the units included in his tag. HIS TAG DID NOT GUARANTEE A SHOT AT THIS SPECIFIC SHEEP. It only guaranteed him hunting opportunities permitted by the state, and he still has those opportunities. If he wants to still be upset I will give him his ten dollars back under the condition all you cry babies have to be quiet.
Here is the reality of it, and I have told you this before. We partake in the most heavily regulated hobby in the history of the world. There isn't even a close second to compare it to. The regulations are getting more complex by the year. They are getting so complex that the keepers of the law can't even keep it straight anymore. That's why we are in this little hick-up right now. These problems are going to become more significant and effect all of us at some time as we propel this issue into a monster for future generations of hunters to deal with. EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF YOUR HUNT IS REGULATED BY GOVERNEMENT. The minute you can hunt, projectiles, weapons, access, clothing, animal, juxtaposition, etc..... Is that freedom?
I want everyone to just step back and look with a very open mind for a second at all of this. To me the behavior I see on here is like two people that get in a fist fight over an assigned parking space.
Here is the reality of it, and I have told you this before. We partake in the most heavily regulated hobby in the history of the world. There isn't even a close second to compare it to. The regulations are getting more complex by the year. They are getting so complex that the keepers of the law can't even keep it straight anymore. That's why we are in this little hick-up right now. These problems are going to become more significant and effect all of us at some time as we propel this issue into a monster for future generations of hunters to deal with. EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF YOUR HUNT IS REGULATED BY GOVERNEMENT. The minute you can hunt, projectiles, weapons, access, clothing, animal, juxtaposition, etc..... Is that freedom?
I want everyone to just step back and look with a very open mind for a second at all of this. To me the behavior I see on here is like two people that get in a fist fight over an assigned parking space.
Wapitiwilly
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,257
Isn't it great we live in a world where RESPOSIBLILTY, ACCOUNTABLITY and INTEGRITY don't matter anymore!
Just sayin...
Just sayin...
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,648
>I have thought long and hard
>about this and really there
>has been no harm biologically
>to the herd or any
>herd of sheep for that
>matter. If there was any
>harm done to a sheep
>herd then that rests only
>on the DWR for saying
>a ram can be killed
>out of a herd that
>couldn't sustain it. By
>the way the DWR said
>a ram could be killed
>out of this herd for
>the past two seasons and
>no ram was killed. So
>we should be fine from
>a biological offtake angle here.
> As for a fiscal
>problem I can't see where
>any one has been wronged.
> The state was paid
>and the hunters received product,
>a sheep tag. I
>can't find any evidence, and
>neither can anyone else, that
>anyone involved was defrauded.
>In fact we can find
>evidence of due diligence with
>all parties involved. No one
>here can actually say the
>state hunter is getting screwed
>because he can still legally
>hunt any of the units
>included in his tag.
>HIS TAG DID NOT GUARANTEE
>A SHOT AT THIS SPECIFIC
>SHEEP. It only guaranteed
>him hunting opportunities permitted by
>the state, and he still
>has those opportunities. If
>he wants to still be
>upset I will give him
>his ten dollars back under
>the condition all you cry
>babies have to be quiet.
>
>
>
>Here is the reality of it,
>and I have told you
>this before. We partake
>in the most heavily regulated
>hobby in the history of
>the world. There isn't
>even a close second to
>compare it to. The
>regulations are getting more complex
>by the year. They
>are getting so complex that
>the keepers of the law
>can't even keep it straight
>anymore. That's why we
>are in this little hick-up
>right now. These problems
>are going to become more
>significant and effect all of
>us at some time as
>we propel this issue into
>a monster for future generations
>of hunters to deal with.
> EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF
>YOUR HUNT IS REGULATED BY
>GOVERNEMENT. The minute you
>can hunt, projectiles, weapons, access,
>clothing, animal, juxtaposition, etc.....
>Is that freedom?
>
>I want everyone to just step
>back and look with a
>very open mind for a
>second at all of this.
> To me the behavior
>I see on here is
>like two people that get
>in a fist fight over
>an assigned parking space.
Amazing how you can be do dead wrong on the first paragraph, yet dead on in the second.
Im glad the new defense for poaching is unit objective, or carrying capacity. Also glad that an outfitter now decides both. Goid to know, because there are a bunch of LEunits that meet your new criteria, and we still have a week of general season deer hunt left, so everyone is free to follow your new rule!
IF WLH DIDNT KNOW THERE WAS A RULE, WHY WOULD HE CALL? Still cant answer that one, and that one is the keystone as to whether it was a mistake or planned.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
>about this and really there
>has been no harm biologically
>to the herd or any
>herd of sheep for that
>matter. If there was any
>harm done to a sheep
>herd then that rests only
>on the DWR for saying
>a ram can be killed
>out of a herd that
>couldn't sustain it. By
>the way the DWR said
>a ram could be killed
>out of this herd for
>the past two seasons and
>no ram was killed. So
>we should be fine from
>a biological offtake angle here.
> As for a fiscal
>problem I can't see where
>any one has been wronged.
> The state was paid
>and the hunters received product,
>a sheep tag. I
>can't find any evidence, and
>neither can anyone else, that
>anyone involved was defrauded.
>In fact we can find
>evidence of due diligence with
>all parties involved. No one
>here can actually say the
>state hunter is getting screwed
>because he can still legally
>hunt any of the units
>included in his tag.
>HIS TAG DID NOT GUARANTEE
>A SHOT AT THIS SPECIFIC
>SHEEP. It only guaranteed
>him hunting opportunities permitted by
>the state, and he still
>has those opportunities. If
>he wants to still be
>upset I will give him
>his ten dollars back under
>the condition all you cry
>babies have to be quiet.
>
>
>
>Here is the reality of it,
>and I have told you
>this before. We partake
>in the most heavily regulated
>hobby in the history of
>the world. There isn't
>even a close second to
>compare it to. The
>regulations are getting more complex
>by the year. They
>are getting so complex that
>the keepers of the law
>can't even keep it straight
>anymore. That's why we
>are in this little hick-up
>right now. These problems
>are going to become more
>significant and effect all of
>us at some time as
>we propel this issue into
>a monster for future generations
>of hunters to deal with.
> EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF
>YOUR HUNT IS REGULATED BY
>GOVERNEMENT. The minute you
>can hunt, projectiles, weapons, access,
>clothing, animal, juxtaposition, etc.....
>Is that freedom?
>
>I want everyone to just step
>back and look with a
>very open mind for a
>second at all of this.
> To me the behavior
>I see on here is
>like two people that get
>in a fist fight over
>an assigned parking space.
Amazing how you can be do dead wrong on the first paragraph, yet dead on in the second.
Im glad the new defense for poaching is unit objective, or carrying capacity. Also glad that an outfitter now decides both. Goid to know, because there are a bunch of LEunits that meet your new criteria, and we still have a week of general season deer hunt left, so everyone is free to follow your new rule!
IF WLH DIDNT KNOW THERE WAS A RULE, WHY WOULD HE CALL? Still cant answer that one, and that one is the keystone as to whether it was a mistake or planned.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
wstrntines
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,870
Bottom Line WLH needs to be punished for the crime. I would be embarrassed if I was an out of state hunter and an outfitter put me on a unit I wasn't supposed to be on.
RoadlessHunter
Active Member
- Messages
- 574
I'd say at a minimum, if everything is true. They should at least confiscate the ram and the guide and other employees for that company should be banned from guiding for sheep for the rest of their lives. If you don't read the rules then you deserve to be punished. IF they let this go then they need to pardon everyone else that didn't read the rules, but got charged.
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
I think wstrntines got it right. WLH guided their hunter and took a ram on a unit that was closed to that hunter. That is a known fact -- not an ""under-informed internet opinion." See R657-41(1)(k) (https://wildlife.utah.gov/rules-regulations/970-r657-41--conservation-and-sportsman-permits.html)
WLH can make excuses and blame his mistake on others, including the DWR (which does appear to bear some responsibility for this collosal screw up), but is doesn't change the fact that WLH guided the state-wide governor's permit holder on a unit that was closed to that hunter.
By the way, is that ram the new state record bighorn? I never heard an official score.
-Hawkeye-
WLH can make excuses and blame his mistake on others, including the DWR (which does appear to bear some responsibility for this collosal screw up), but is doesn't change the fact that WLH guided the state-wide governor's permit holder on a unit that was closed to that hunter.
By the way, is that ram the new state record bighorn? I never heard an official score.
-Hawkeye-
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,894
Actually looks like you are the one who isn't reading. If you go back and read the rules in the proclamation, which they read, it gave out bad info. Sounds like they do know how to read. When they went to the state for clarification the state told them it was OK.
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,894
That is a known fact. However that isn't THE ONLY known fact. KInd of like when a citizen shoots and kills a man. It must be murder right??? Until you realize there are related laws that give him allow them to do so. That is when it becomes under-informed internet opinion, and it is being nice calling it only that.
You act like the DWR is just this little rinky dink co-conspirator in all this. THEY ARE THE GOVERNMENT WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE TO MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND THE LEGALITY OF THE HUNT. That is major.
You act like the DWR is just this little rinky dink co-conspirator in all this. THEY ARE THE GOVERNMENT WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE TO MAKE SURE YOU UNDERSTAND THE LEGALITY OF THE HUNT. That is major.
pookiebar
Active Member
- Messages
- 580
Hawkeye, I will give you a call later. I find your arguments compelling. Not entirely convincing, and we will likely just have to agree to disagree but I enjoy talking to people with a brain.
Hoss, in post 114 you said:
"Sure i have. But i called the inspector for the city i was in, not one 200 miles away. I also didnt claim i didnt kow there was a code, then call an inspector. Last, when i did screw up, i got the job redtagged, the city didt look the other way and say everyone makes mistakes."
First of all there is no rule stating which office WLH has to call. Additionally this is a STATE WIDE law and hunt, and all DWR offices are STATE authorities. Your comparisons are not the same, so give it up.
Also, you have answered your own question about whether WLH new about the law. Additionally you provided the explanation as to why they went and hunted the unit after getting the green light from a STATE representative. I realize you keep saying you have details you can't/won't share. That is inadmissible as far as your argument goes. If you can't/won't share information NO ONE will just take your word on it.
Essentially WLH pulled the "redtagged" explanation that is provided for in your profession.
As I have stated before you're in over your head. Get out!!
Hoss, in post 114 you said:
"Sure i have. But i called the inspector for the city i was in, not one 200 miles away. I also didnt claim i didnt kow there was a code, then call an inspector. Last, when i did screw up, i got the job redtagged, the city didt look the other way and say everyone makes mistakes."
First of all there is no rule stating which office WLH has to call. Additionally this is a STATE WIDE law and hunt, and all DWR offices are STATE authorities. Your comparisons are not the same, so give it up.
Also, you have answered your own question about whether WLH new about the law. Additionally you provided the explanation as to why they went and hunted the unit after getting the green light from a STATE representative. I realize you keep saying you have details you can't/won't share. That is inadmissible as far as your argument goes. If you can't/won't share information NO ONE will just take your word on it.
Essentially WLH pulled the "redtagged" explanation that is provided for in your profession.
As I have stated before you're in over your head. Get out!!
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
pookie-
Call me any time. I would be more than happy to chat with you about this situation.
Please understand that most of us did not have an ax to grind with WL or the Ms. Waldrip prior to this incident. However, we are frustrated that laws were violated and a trophy ram was shot in a unit that was not open to the hunter. Surely somebody should be responsible for this fiasco.
I will admit that the DWR appears to have made some mistakes and should be held accountable. However, I don't agree that the outfitter and the hunter get a free pass. When you enter the field as a hunter, you have a responsibility to know and follow the applciable rules. They did not doe this.
Futhermore, if I am lucky outfitter who is hired to guide the statewide governor's big horn tag, which was purchased for $95,000, you better believe that I am going to do my due diligence in order to understand all of the applicable rules and regulations that apply to that special tag. Rather than hiring a team of spotters, perhaps a little time should have been spent stuying the rules. I found the provision relating to the Nebo unit in less than 30 seconds on the internet. The outifitter and the hunter could have and should have done the same thing. There should be some consequences for guiding and shooting a trophy animal in the wrong unit but I believe the DWR is more interested in sitting back and hoping this mess blows over soon.
I will also say that the outfitter's statements to the reporter certainly did not help his cause. You can argue that his comments were "taken out of context" but I will tell you that there is no way to put a positive spin on those statements.
I am looking forward to your call.
-Hawkeye-
Call me any time. I would be more than happy to chat with you about this situation.
Please understand that most of us did not have an ax to grind with WL or the Ms. Waldrip prior to this incident. However, we are frustrated that laws were violated and a trophy ram was shot in a unit that was not open to the hunter. Surely somebody should be responsible for this fiasco.
I will admit that the DWR appears to have made some mistakes and should be held accountable. However, I don't agree that the outfitter and the hunter get a free pass. When you enter the field as a hunter, you have a responsibility to know and follow the applciable rules. They did not doe this.
Futhermore, if I am lucky outfitter who is hired to guide the statewide governor's big horn tag, which was purchased for $95,000, you better believe that I am going to do my due diligence in order to understand all of the applicable rules and regulations that apply to that special tag. Rather than hiring a team of spotters, perhaps a little time should have been spent stuying the rules. I found the provision relating to the Nebo unit in less than 30 seconds on the internet. The outifitter and the hunter could have and should have done the same thing. There should be some consequences for guiding and shooting a trophy animal in the wrong unit but I believe the DWR is more interested in sitting back and hoping this mess blows over soon.
I will also say that the outfitter's statements to the reporter certainly did not help his cause. You can argue that his comments were "taken out of context" but I will tell you that there is no way to put a positive spin on those statements.
I am looking forward to your call.
-Hawkeye-
TheDudeAbides
Member
- Messages
- 89
How do other states do it without the gobs of money coming in from auction tags?
Wyoming, Montana, and Colorado all rely on the common man's dime to fund the wildlife and many would argue the hunting is better in these states.
Wyoming, Montana, and Colorado all rely on the common man's dime to fund the wildlife and many would argue the hunting is better in these states.
TheDudeAbides
Member
- Messages
- 89
To be fair, if we had that money to blow we would be hunting them every year.
TerynItUp
Active Member
- Messages
- 618
Just curious onlooker here.....the $95k that keeps getting mentioned, who received it? DWR or WLH? I think that makes a difference here. If the DWR received it, what sum of money did WLH walk away with?
I don't have a dog in the fight at all but this has been quite entertaining and I am enjoying trying to form an unbiased opinion on the matter.
Hunt Hard. Shoot Straight. Kill Clean. Apologize to No One.
I don't have a dog in the fight at all but this has been quite entertaining and I am enjoying trying to form an unbiased opinion on the matter.
Hunt Hard. Shoot Straight. Kill Clean. Apologize to No One.
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
TerynItUp-
The $95,000 that was paid by the hunter for the statewide conservation permit went to the DWR and the sponsoring conservation group. I have not clue how much the hunter paid WLH to guide her on this hunt or how much was paid by way of a finder's fee to the individual that tipped them off to this ram.
-Hawkeye-
The $95,000 that was paid by the hunter for the statewide conservation permit went to the DWR and the sponsoring conservation group. I have not clue how much the hunter paid WLH to guide her on this hunt or how much was paid by way of a finder's fee to the individual that tipped them off to this ram.
-Hawkeye-
Robiland
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,091
>Just curious onlooker here.....the $95k that
>keeps getting mentioned, who received
>it? DWR or WLH? I
>think that makes a difference
>here. If the DWR received
>it, what sum of money
>did WLH walk away with?
>
>
>I don't have a dog in
>the fight at all but
>this has been quite entertaining
>and I am enjoying trying
>to form an unbiased opinion
>on the matter.
>
>Hunt Hard. Shoot Straight. Kill Clean.
>Apologize to No One.
That $95K goes to the DWR to use for Conservation project. WLH receives none of it. He only gets paid what the hunter and him contracted for. But hat money is given to the DWR. Yes, there are percentages involved And I can not remember off the top of my head.
>keeps getting mentioned, who received
>it? DWR or WLH? I
>think that makes a difference
>here. If the DWR received
>it, what sum of money
>did WLH walk away with?
>
>
>I don't have a dog in
>the fight at all but
>this has been quite entertaining
>and I am enjoying trying
>to form an unbiased opinion
>on the matter.
>
>Hunt Hard. Shoot Straight. Kill Clean.
>Apologize to No One.
That $95K goes to the DWR to use for Conservation project. WLH receives none of it. He only gets paid what the hunter and him contracted for. But hat money is given to the DWR. Yes, there are percentages involved And I can not remember off the top of my head.
txhunter58
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,628
So the takeaway from this in my book is that someone who paid the DWR $95,000 for a tag screwed up big time and gets a slap on the wrist. And if you or I did the same thing: Pow!
Thus ends the lesson in economics.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
Thus ends the lesson in economics.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
fin little
Active Member
- Messages
- 762
Why would WLH call the DWR if they weren't aware some units were off limits ? I doubt they were as unaware as they claim.
elkantlers
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,762
Everyone should e-mail the Wildlife board and tell the their thought on how this whole deal was handled.
John Bair, Chair
Email: [email protected]
Kirk Woodward, Vice Chair
Email: [email protected]
Byron Bateman
Email: [email protected]
Calvin Crandall
Email: [email protected]
Steve Dalton
Email: [email protected]
Donnie Hunter
Email: [email protected]
Michael King
Email: [email protected]
Gregory Sheehan, Executive Secretary
Email: [email protected]
John Bair, Chair
Email: [email protected]
Kirk Woodward, Vice Chair
Email: [email protected]
Byron Bateman
Email: [email protected]
Calvin Crandall
Email: [email protected]
Steve Dalton
Email: [email protected]
Donnie Hunter
Email: [email protected]
Michael King
Email: [email protected]
Gregory Sheehan, Executive Secretary
Email: [email protected]
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,894
The 95k is an illogical distraction for people who have a loosing argument and want to stimulate class warfare. It has nothing to do with the laws that people think were broken or the reason why the prosecutor decided it was an unwinnable case.
Hawkeye,
You keep saying we are arguing that the quotes were taken out of context. You conveniently look over and omit that Wade said the quotes "couldn't be further from the truth". That to me tells me he was misquoted or the tribune is telling out and out lies.
Hawkeye,
You keep saying we are arguing that the quotes were taken out of context. You conveniently look over and omit that Wade said the quotes "couldn't be further from the truth". That to me tells me he was misquoted or the tribune is telling out and out lies.
wstrntines
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,870
Tristate bottom line is no and if or buts about it that the law was broken. They broke the law and you know it I know it WLH knows it and the DNR knows it. It's called knowing right from wrong. So Tristate what do you think should happen if I did the exact same thing same scenario only I have the sportsman Tag?
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
LAST EDITED ON Oct-26-16 AT 03:40PM (MST)[p]Yes, WL claimed his comments were "taken out of context" and "couldn't be further from the truth" after people read the article and the crap hit the fan. You think the Tribune fabricated those quotes. I believe that WL made those statements while speaking off the cuff to the reporter. If the Tribune wanted to do a hatchet job on your buddy it certainly could have, but it didn't. Frankly, the reporter was more than fair and was too easy on all of the parties involved.
-Hawkeye-
-Hawkeye-
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,648
>The 95k is an illogical distraction
>for people who have a
>loosing argument and want to
>stimulate class warfare. It
>has nothing to do with
>the laws that people think
>were broken or the reason
>why the prosecutor decided it
>was an unwinnable case.
>
>Hawkeye,
>
>You keep saying we are arguing
>that the quotes were taken
>out of context. You
>conveniently look over and omit
>that Wade said the quotes
>"couldn't be further from the
>truth". That to me
>tells me he was misquoted
>or the tribune is telling
>out and out lies.
The $95k i brought up because you and others claim its just a sheep. If it was just a barely legal ram, wlh wouldnt have wasted time on it.
Hawkeye,
I will be interested to see on the record book thing. I know of a few folks that contacted b&c to let them know what was up. Curious to see if they accept.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
>for people who have a
>loosing argument and want to
>stimulate class warfare. It
>has nothing to do with
>the laws that people think
>were broken or the reason
>why the prosecutor decided it
>was an unwinnable case.
>
>Hawkeye,
>
>You keep saying we are arguing
>that the quotes were taken
>out of context. You
>conveniently look over and omit
>that Wade said the quotes
>"couldn't be further from the
>truth". That to me
>tells me he was misquoted
>or the tribune is telling
>out and out lies.
The $95k i brought up because you and others claim its just a sheep. If it was just a barely legal ram, wlh wouldnt have wasted time on it.
Hawkeye,
I will be interested to see on the record book thing. I know of a few folks that contacted b&c to let them know what was up. Curious to see if they accept.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,648
>Hossblur,
>
>the 95k was to go hunting.
> Not a guarantee to
>kill this specific sheep.
>THAT IS A FACT.
>SO the 95k is irrelevant
>to your argument.
Sure, it could have been $50k, or $500k, your right the actual number dont matter, but the size of the ram does. Wlh, the waldrips, and the tv show werent chasing "just a sheep", they were chasing THIS sheep. They wanted the state record. Otherwise they coukd have taken "just a sheep" on another unit.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
>
>the 95k was to go hunting.
> Not a guarantee to
>kill this specific sheep.
>THAT IS A FACT.
>SO the 95k is irrelevant
>to your argument.
Sure, it could have been $50k, or $500k, your right the actual number dont matter, but the size of the ram does. Wlh, the waldrips, and the tv show werent chasing "just a sheep", they were chasing THIS sheep. They wanted the state record. Otherwise they coukd have taken "just a sheep" on another unit.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
Wstrntines, tristate is correct. He would defend you if you shot a trophy ram outside your unit. Tristate has a long track record of defending every hoodlum, law-breaker and accused poacher on this forum. There is no reason to believe he would not defend you also. At least he is consistent on one point.
-Hawkeye-
-Hawkeye-
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,648
>The size of ram doesn't matter
>either. Are you telling
>me if the ram had
>been a 160 ram you
>would give WLH a pass?
>
He wouldnt have chased it, this wouldnt have happened. He decided that, i didnt
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
>either. Are you telling
>me if the ram had
>been a 160 ram you
>would give WLH a pass?
>
He wouldnt have chased it, this wouldnt have happened. He decided that, i didnt
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
NVBighorn
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 9,458
A little birdie told me the ram won't make book and isn't a state record. Low 170s. That's still a great ram but makes me wonder. It's a $95,000 tag and a high dollar outfitter with the entire state to hunt (except Nebo 
). Did somebody misjudge the ram or were they having trouble finding better so they decided to bend the rules?
In any case wouldn't you love to have been a fly on a rock after UDWR saw the Facebook pictures and got hold of WLH and told them they couldn't hunt where they just killed the ram? I bet some asses puckered and an emergency huddle was held on the mountain to get everybody's story straight.
). Did somebody misjudge the ram or were they having trouble finding better so they decided to bend the rules? In any case wouldn't you love to have been a fly on a rock after UDWR saw the Facebook pictures and got hold of WLH and told them they couldn't hunt where they just killed the ram? I bet some asses puckered and an emergency huddle was held on the mountain to get everybody's story straight.
grosventrehunter
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,883
You can't speak logic with a unlogical turd like tri-state. Period....
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,648
>A little birdie told me the
>ram won't make book and
>isn't a state record. Low
>170s. That's still a great
>ram but makes me wonder.
>It's a $95,000 tag and
>a high dollar outfitter with
>the entire state to hunt
>(except Nebo ). Did
>somebody misjudge the ram or
>were they having trouble finding
>better so they decided to
>bend the rules?
>
>In any case wouldn't you love
>to have been a fly
>on a rock after UDWR
>saw the Facebook pictures and
>got hold of WLH and
>told them they couldn't hunt
>where they just killed the
>ram? I bet some asses
>puckered and an emergency huddle
>was held on the mountain
>to get everybody's story straight.
>
Im betting wlh remembered that phone number in slc about then. Not book, and all this noise, bet waldrips aint excited either?
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
>ram won't make book and
>isn't a state record. Low
>170s. That's still a great
>ram but makes me wonder.
>It's a $95,000 tag and
>a high dollar outfitter with
>the entire state to hunt
>(except Nebo
). Did >somebody misjudge the ram or
>were they having trouble finding
>better so they decided to
>bend the rules?
>
>In any case wouldn't you love
>to have been a fly
>on a rock after UDWR
>saw the Facebook pictures and
>got hold of WLH and
>told them they couldn't hunt
>where they just killed the
>ram? I bet some asses
>puckered and an emergency huddle
>was held on the mountain
>to get everybody's story straight.
>
Im betting wlh remembered that phone number in slc about then. Not book, and all this noise, bet waldrips aint excited either?
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
eelgrass
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 31,592
>Maybe they just went hunting for
>a good ram and the
>inches didn't matter.
Maybe, but the size of the ram is irrelevant. If you "accidentally" use a barbed hook while salmon fishing off the coast of California, the warden won't care about the size of the fish.
>a good ram and the
>inches didn't matter.
Maybe, but the size of the ram is irrelevant. If you "accidentally" use a barbed hook while salmon fishing off the coast of California, the warden won't care about the size of the fish.
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,894
I couldn't agree more eelgrass. The size of ram AND the amount of money spent are illogical distractions to the argument at hand.
Hossblur,
I have killed some pretty big critters all over the world. I don't believe a single one is in a book anywhere but I enjoy sharing pictures with interested people.
Hossblur,
I have killed some pretty big critters all over the world. I don't believe a single one is in a book anywhere but I enjoy sharing pictures with interested people.
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,648
>I couldn't agree more eelgrass.
>The size of ram AND
>the amount of money spent
>are illogical distractions to the
>argument at hand.
>
>
>Hossblur,
>
>I have killed some pretty big
>critters all over the world.
> I don't believe a
>single one is in a
>book anywhere but I enjoy
>sharing pictures with interested people.
Doubt you payed over $100k to do it and had a tv crew following.
Wait, i know, a texan is so concerned about the wildlife in utah that it was just charity, any old ram was ok. Damn, never thought of that, well, since wlh or waldrip really didnt care about inches, it was ok to shoot an illegal sheep. Now had she of cared only about inches, then it was wrong? I guess next your gonna tell me it was tithing? Seriously, they are in the mule deer section torturing some guy for poaching, and putting the head mount in the expo, u need to get in there. Poaching, the expo, taxidermy, man thats right in your wheel house!!
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
>The size of ram AND
>the amount of money spent
>are illogical distractions to the
>argument at hand.
>
>
>Hossblur,
>
>I have killed some pretty big
>critters all over the world.
> I don't believe a
>single one is in a
>book anywhere but I enjoy
>sharing pictures with interested people.
Doubt you payed over $100k to do it and had a tv crew following.
Wait, i know, a texan is so concerned about the wildlife in utah that it was just charity, any old ram was ok. Damn, never thought of that, well, since wlh or waldrip really didnt care about inches, it was ok to shoot an illegal sheep. Now had she of cared only about inches, then it was wrong? I guess next your gonna tell me it was tithing? Seriously, they are in the mule deer section torturing some guy for poaching, and putting the head mount in the expo, u need to get in there. Poaching, the expo, taxidermy, man thats right in your wheel house!!
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,894
What I paid and whether I had a tv crew is just as irrelevant as whether they did on this sheep hunt.
You are grasping at straws Hossblur. You really aren't even making sense anymore.
As for the other thread I commented back when that was new news. I heard the guy plead guilty. Looks like he will pay the price which the court decides. Doesn't matter what a bunch of internet haters think at this point. Its a done deal. Go hate over there all you want. I don't care. He has a lot bigger and real problems than dealing with public image. I hope his family makes it through OK. Hope yall tax payers up there can enjoy feeding his family for a while if he loses his job and goes to jail like most of them want.
You are grasping at straws Hossblur. You really aren't even making sense anymore.
As for the other thread I commented back when that was new news. I heard the guy plead guilty. Looks like he will pay the price which the court decides. Doesn't matter what a bunch of internet haters think at this point. Its a done deal. Go hate over there all you want. I don't care. He has a lot bigger and real problems than dealing with public image. I hope his family makes it through OK. Hope yall tax payers up there can enjoy feeding his family for a while if he loses his job and goes to jail like most of them want.
Gollywomper
Active Member
- Messages
- 274
Can this just go away!!
It was mildly amusing for a while, however it is now a distraction on a good forum.
The fact is the ram WAS killed in a unit that was closed to this tag holder. Arguing they had permission from a biologist is invalid, unless Utah allows their biologists to change laws when and where they see fit. We may or may not like the decision not to prosecute, however the fact remains that there is a law in the regulations that states this tag was NOT valid in this unit this year. I think we all agree on that......
It was mildly amusing for a while, however it is now a distraction on a good forum.
The fact is the ram WAS killed in a unit that was closed to this tag holder. Arguing they had permission from a biologist is invalid, unless Utah allows their biologists to change laws when and where they see fit. We may or may not like the decision not to prosecute, however the fact remains that there is a law in the regulations that states this tag was NOT valid in this unit this year. I think we all agree on that......
elkhunterUT
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,904
Wade Lemon says he was misquoted in the Salt Lake Tribune article, but I certainly wasn't. The tribune used some of my comments from a UDWR facebook post a few weeks ago in that article, and I stand by those comments 100%.
regular joe tag holder = full prosecution
big name guide/high dollar tag holder = no harm no foul
Many of us have worried and complained for many years about the direction of Utah's wildlife management with the absurd # of auction tags we have - this is where it leads folks and it is not good for the tradition of hunting and for the sportsmen and sportswomen that love hunting for what it really should be.
Shame on UDWR, Wade Lemon & guides, and the hunter that killed this ram illegally!!
regular joe tag holder = full prosecution
big name guide/high dollar tag holder = no harm no foul
Many of us have worried and complained for many years about the direction of Utah's wildlife management with the absurd # of auction tags we have - this is where it leads folks and it is not good for the tradition of hunting and for the sportsmen and sportswomen that love hunting for what it really should be.
Shame on UDWR, Wade Lemon & guides, and the hunter that killed this ram illegally!!
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,894
I bet you would love for it to go away as long as everyone believes all you said is all there is to the story. The problem is there is a lot more to this than just the word of a biologist and that is an inconvenient fact for the people who want to see WLH penalized.
Gollywomper
Active Member
- Messages
- 274
Please share all this information you have. I would like to be properly informed.
Are you saying there is no such law listed in the regulations? That was my one and only point, The law exists. There is no arguing the fact that the law exists.
Are you saying there is no such law listed in the regulations? That was my one and only point, The law exists. There is no arguing the fact that the law exists.
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,894
We know the law exists. Just like we know there was more in your last post than that point. Just like we know there is more to guilt and culpability than whether a law is violated.
The information was shared on this thread and others along with a letter from the DWR.
The information was shared on this thread and others along with a letter from the DWR.
Gollywomper
Active Member
- Messages
- 274
Ok. The two points I made.
#1 The law exists.
#2 Biologists usually do NOT have authority to change laws.
Are you saying either of these are false?
Those are the two things that I addressed. There is absolutely no doubt laws were broken. Who is at fault? Who knows. My opinion is most the fault falls on DWR. However that has not been the backbone of this topic. The constant defense is "no laws were broken". Which is false.
#1 The law exists.
#2 Biologists usually do NOT have authority to change laws.
Are you saying either of these are false?
Those are the two things that I addressed. There is absolutely no doubt laws were broken. Who is at fault? Who knows. My opinion is most the fault falls on DWR. However that has not been the backbone of this topic. The constant defense is "no laws were broken". Which is false.
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,648
>Wade Lemon says he was misquoted
>in the Salt Lake Tribune
>article, but I certainly wasn't.
> The tribune used some
>of my comments from a
>UDWR facebook post a few
>weeks ago in that article,
>and I stand by those
>comments 100%.
>
>regular joe tag holder = full
>prosecution
>
>big name guide/high dollar tag holder
>= no harm no foul
>
>
>Many of us have worried and
>complained for many years about
>the direction of Utah's wildlife
>management with the absurd #
>of auction tags we have
>- this is where it
>leads folks and it is
>not good for the tradition
>of hunting and for the
>sportsmen and sportswomen that love
>hunting for what it really
>should be.
>
>Shame on UDWR, Wade Lemon &
>guides, and the hunter that
>killed this ram illegally!!
He claims he was taken out of context, he used the words, somehow there is a context in which calling all of us knuckleheads was positive.
Tri, if you dont want taxpayers raising yoir kids, dont put inches ahead of their future. If you make bad decsions, suffer the consequences. Same here. If 40years of good buisness being soiled for one damn sheep is worth it, wlh made that choice, i didnt, neither did you. If there are consequences, wlh chose to accept them, obviously it was worth it to them.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
>in the Salt Lake Tribune
>article, but I certainly wasn't.
> The tribune used some
>of my comments from a
>UDWR facebook post a few
>weeks ago in that article,
>and I stand by those
>comments 100%.
>
>regular joe tag holder = full
>prosecution
>
>big name guide/high dollar tag holder
>= no harm no foul
>
>
>Many of us have worried and
>complained for many years about
>the direction of Utah's wildlife
>management with the absurd #
>of auction tags we have
>- this is where it
>leads folks and it is
>not good for the tradition
>of hunting and for the
>sportsmen and sportswomen that love
>hunting for what it really
>should be.
>
>Shame on UDWR, Wade Lemon &
>guides, and the hunter that
>killed this ram illegally!!
He claims he was taken out of context, he used the words, somehow there is a context in which calling all of us knuckleheads was positive.
Tri, if you dont want taxpayers raising yoir kids, dont put inches ahead of their future. If you make bad decsions, suffer the consequences. Same here. If 40years of good buisness being soiled for one damn sheep is worth it, wlh made that choice, i didnt, neither did you. If there are consequences, wlh chose to accept them, obviously it was worth it to them.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,648
The hope was, and the lack of pics i think proves it, was that it would just be a rumor, just a bunch of jealous knuckleheads yapping. It would blow over, and by expo season that mount would bring in big buisness for next year.
I doubt they ever figured their good friend, and defender Tristate would post a pic of the ram, shooter, and nebo in background. That one pic that went viral. That one pic that killed rumors. The pic that really lit a fire here, a bunch of other forums, and the dwr own page. Wlh had this covered, until....Tristate. talk about irony.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
I doubt they ever figured their good friend, and defender Tristate would post a pic of the ram, shooter, and nebo in background. That one pic that went viral. That one pic that killed rumors. The pic that really lit a fire here, a bunch of other forums, and the dwr own page. Wlh had this covered, until....Tristate. talk about irony.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,894
Oh Hossblur if you only knew half as much as you think you know.
By the way I wasn't making comment about the willingness of criminals having their kids raised by the state, I was commenting about the people's willingness to do it for them. You are so willing to foot that bill. I am sure you pay lots of taxes though and you are happy to keep giving more to feed a deer violator in jail plus feed his entire family on the outside.
How many years should a deer poacher spend in jail Hossblur?
By the way Wade Lemon didn't call everyone knuckleheads. I think that is the context he was talking about being misquoted in. But what do either of us know?
By the way I wasn't making comment about the willingness of criminals having their kids raised by the state, I was commenting about the people's willingness to do it for them. You are so willing to foot that bill. I am sure you pay lots of taxes though and you are happy to keep giving more to feed a deer violator in jail plus feed his entire family on the outside.
How many years should a deer poacher spend in jail Hossblur?
By the way Wade Lemon didn't call everyone knuckleheads. I think that is the context he was talking about being misquoted in. But what do either of us know?
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,648
>Oh Hossblur if you only knew
>half as much as you
>think you know.
>
>By the way I wasn't making
>comment about the willingness of
>criminals having their kids raised
>by the state, I was
>commenting about the people's willingness
>to do it for them.
> You are so willing
>to foot that bill.
>I am sure you pay
>lots of taxes though and
>you are happy to keep
>giving more to feed a
>deer violator in jail plus
>feed his entire family on
>the outside.
>
>How many years should a deer
>poacher spend in jail Hossblur?
>
>
>By the way Wade Lemon didn't
>call everyone knuckleheads. I
>think that is the context
>he was talking about being
>misquoted in. But what
>do either of us know?
>
No, just every general season tag holder.
Dont know about jail, but truck, gun, everything else, and a felony, and all that goes with it, no guns, no vote, etc. If it was just a deer/sheep it wouldnt be worth it. So because the poacher puts a big value on it, then their crime should be equal to the crime. Whether thats $100 or $100k, the market decided, but lets not pretend there isnt a market, the truckloads of "special" tags in utah alone proves their is.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
>half as much as you
>think you know.
>
>By the way I wasn't making
>comment about the willingness of
>criminals having their kids raised
>by the state, I was
>commenting about the people's willingness
>to do it for them.
> You are so willing
>to foot that bill.
>I am sure you pay
>lots of taxes though and
>you are happy to keep
>giving more to feed a
>deer violator in jail plus
>feed his entire family on
>the outside.
>
>How many years should a deer
>poacher spend in jail Hossblur?
>
>
>By the way Wade Lemon didn't
>call everyone knuckleheads. I
>think that is the context
>he was talking about being
>misquoted in. But what
>do either of us know?
>
No, just every general season tag holder.
Dont know about jail, but truck, gun, everything else, and a felony, and all that goes with it, no guns, no vote, etc. If it was just a deer/sheep it wouldnt be worth it. So because the poacher puts a big value on it, then their crime should be equal to the crime. Whether thats $100 or $100k, the market decided, but lets not pretend there isnt a market, the truckloads of "special" tags in utah alone proves their is.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,894
Well if the market decided then its only a few hundred bucks. You want to spend the money it takes dealing with a felon for the rest of his life over a few hundred bucks? Hey just other people's money right? State decided the market. Its a few hundred bucks.
johnnycake
Active Member
- Messages
- 575
a few hundred bucks for a "market" tag? You do realize the proper market would be the auction tag for the species and not the draw tag price, right? Then again, silly me to think Tri understands economic modeling!
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,894
Actually Johnnycake this is an extension of other conversations we have had here for years therefore I can see why you don't understand my point.
As long as the DWR wants to sell tags at grossly deflated values this is the argument you have to deal with. Many here would like to have it both ways but the simple fact is the auction tag and a drawn tag are like apples and oranges. If you want that to change then start paying auction tag prices for drawn tags.
As long as the DWR wants to sell tags at grossly deflated values this is the argument you have to deal with. Many here would like to have it both ways but the simple fact is the auction tag and a drawn tag are like apples and oranges. If you want that to change then start paying auction tag prices for drawn tags.
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,648
>Actually Johnnycake this is an extension
>of other conversations we have
>had here for years therefore
>I can see why you
>don't understand my point.
>
>As long as the DWR wants
>to sell tags at grossly
>deflated values this is the
>argument you have to deal
>with. Many here would
>like to have it both
>ways but the simple fact
>is the auction tag and
>a drawn tag are like
>apples and oranges. If
>you want that to change
>then start paying auction tag
>prices for drawn tags.
Didnt you just tell me the state sets the market? Now they sre deflated? Read your own posts. Tri, i know u and your friend think they are $25, they arent. In fact my dedicated tag cost me $280 this year.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
>of other conversations we have
>had here for years therefore
>I can see why you
>don't understand my point.
>
>As long as the DWR wants
>to sell tags at grossly
>deflated values this is the
>argument you have to deal
>with. Many here would
>like to have it both
>ways but the simple fact
>is the auction tag and
>a drawn tag are like
>apples and oranges. If
>you want that to change
>then start paying auction tag
>prices for drawn tags.
Didnt you just tell me the state sets the market? Now they sre deflated? Read your own posts. Tri, i know u and your friend think they are $25, they arent. In fact my dedicated tag cost me $280 this year.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
Robiland
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,091
Hes a freaking idiot. He cant even keep his own thoughts straight. I am completely at loss of words to try and explain any more to this idiot. You can tell him the sky is blue and he will argue other wise. You can tell him the grass is green, then he will try and tell you its not, because of 1 dang reason to another. PURE IDIOT!
I bet he votes for Hillary too.
I bet he votes for Hillary too.
txhunter58
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,628
Rob, et al
Give it up. Are you old enough to remember nurse Ratchet from one flew over the cuckoo's nest? If so, just think of her and move on.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
Give it up. Are you old enough to remember nurse Ratchet from one flew over the cuckoo's nest? If so, just think of her and move on.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,648
As the OP, im done. Unless something else comes out, my original post served its purpose. Even folks who dont think its poaching, except Tri, can see wlh got off on a technicality. The hows and whys dont matter, it was shady. I thinkthe pressure of public comments exposed wlh beliefs, context or not. Sure there will be another innocent mistake soon, but we get the actions we allow.
Please look for my line of Knucklehead Outdoors t shirts, should be in all the average peoples stores.
Im out of this one
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
Please look for my line of Knucklehead Outdoors t shirts, should be in all the average peoples stores.
Im out of this one
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
elkantlers
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,762
>Wade Lemon says he was misquoted
>in the Salt Lake Tribune
>article, but I certainly wasn't.
> The tribune used some
>of my comments from a
>UDWR facebook post a few
>weeks ago in that article,
>and I stand by those
>comments 100%.
>
>regular joe tag holder = full
>prosecution
>
>big name guide/high dollar tag holder
>= no harm no foul
>
>
>Many of us have worried and
>complained for many years about
>the direction of Utah's wildlife
>management with the absurd #
>of auction tags we have
>- this is where it
>leads folks and it is
>not good for the tradition
>of hunting and for the
>sportsmen and sportswomen that love
>hunting for what it really
>should be.
>
>Shame on UDWR, Wade Lemon &
>guides, and the hunter that
>killed this ram illegally!!
^^^^^ Like ^^^^^
>in the Salt Lake Tribune
>article, but I certainly wasn't.
> The tribune used some
>of my comments from a
>UDWR facebook post a few
>weeks ago in that article,
>and I stand by those
>comments 100%.
>
>regular joe tag holder = full
>prosecution
>
>big name guide/high dollar tag holder
>= no harm no foul
>
>
>Many of us have worried and
>complained for many years about
>the direction of Utah's wildlife
>management with the absurd #
>of auction tags we have
>- this is where it
>leads folks and it is
>not good for the tradition
>of hunting and for the
>sportsmen and sportswomen that love
>hunting for what it really
>should be.
>
>Shame on UDWR, Wade Lemon &
>guides, and the hunter that
>killed this ram illegally!!
^^^^^ Like ^^^^^
johnnycake
Active Member
- Messages
- 575
Tri, I might not post much, but I've been a browser on this site for the past 15 years or so. I am well aware of the discussions but given the reality of the market we have you cannot insert a hypothetical value with no basis on what the tags would sell for if they were all auction tags. You use the actual data. But hey, I'm just an economist-turned-regulatory lawyer that does economic forecasting on a daily basis so what do I know about markets?
And Hoss, I'm with you on the Knucklehead Outdoors! But I don't agree that it was a technicality that got everybody off the hook---it was flat out corruption.
And Hoss, I'm with you on the Knucklehead Outdoors! But I don't agree that it was a technicality that got everybody off the hook---it was flat out corruption.
NVBighorn
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 9,458
In post 177 Tri said "your tag cost $25"
Out of context maybe but you said it.
Adios MFer
The tag that costs a few hundred bucks and the one that cost $95,000 are not the same tag so do not have the same market value. With one tag you can hunt anywhere in the state (except Nebo in even numbered years), the other you are confined to one unit. What is allowed under one permit is completely different than what is allowed under the other.
Go away boy, ya botha me.
Out of context maybe but you said it.
Adios MFer
The tag that costs a few hundred bucks and the one that cost $95,000 are not the same tag so do not have the same market value. With one tag you can hunt anywhere in the state (except Nebo in even numbered years), the other you are confined to one unit. What is allowed under one permit is completely different than what is allowed under the other.
Go away boy, ya botha me.
johnnycake
Active Member
- Messages
- 575
LAST EDITED ON Oct-27-16 AT 11:52PM (MST)[p]The tag your referring to is after a draw. The value of luck/time to draw versus obtaining that tag for money only is why you see auction deer tag or landowner tags for much more than $280. The use of a government rate with additional variables included to obtain it is not the proper measure for the market rate.
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,894
"The value of luck/time"
That's one of the best ones I have ever heard. What a load of el torro doodoo.
THERE IS NO MARKET RATE FOR THE TAG WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. You can't engage in commerce or sales with the tag. The only entity that gets to "profit" from the tag is the state and they get to set the price, which they have. It can easily be argued that the value of an auction tag is synthetic because the tag is advertised as tax deductible donation. No one buys an auction tag and eeeeeeeeeeever thinks they can get a tiny sliver of fiscal return on their investment. It is as close to p155ing money away as one can get. Tax deductible donations don't determine a market rate. YOU KNOW THAT IS TRUE if you are what you say you are.
That's one of the best ones I have ever heard. What a load of el torro doodoo.
THERE IS NO MARKET RATE FOR THE TAG WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. You can't engage in commerce or sales with the tag. The only entity that gets to "profit" from the tag is the state and they get to set the price, which they have. It can easily be argued that the value of an auction tag is synthetic because the tag is advertised as tax deductible donation. No one buys an auction tag and eeeeeeeeeeever thinks they can get a tiny sliver of fiscal return on their investment. It is as close to p155ing money away as one can get. Tax deductible donations don't determine a market rate. YOU KNOW THAT IS TRUE if you are what you say you are.
wstrntines
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,870
LAST EDITED ON Oct-28-16 AT 07:11AM (MST)[p]And Tri big horn tags are $513 dollars in the beehive state on a drawn basis for a resident $1518 for a non resident. But after all this isnt a drawn tag we're talking about. Quit side stepping that they are guilty and comparing the gov tag to a standard sheep tag.
shadowhunter88
Member
- Messages
- 13
LAST EDITED ON Oct-28-16 AT 09:13AM (MST)[p](No one buys an auction tag and eeeeeeeeeeever thinks they can get a tiny sliver of fiscal return on their investment.)
Horsesh*t!!! Look what Huntin Fool done with the Henry's auction Tag a couple of years ago. Tri you run your mouth like you know what went down with this Illegal Ram and all you really know is what your buddies WLH & Waldrip's want you to hear.
Horsesh*t!!! Look what Huntin Fool done with the Henry's auction Tag a couple of years ago. Tri you run your mouth like you know what went down with this Illegal Ram and all you really know is what your buddies WLH & Waldrip's want you to hear.
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,894
Westerntines,
Hossblur went this direction and it wasn't about a sheep tag. I was amusing his hijacking. As for them being guilty, I guess we can get rid of the entire judicial system and just appoint you as omniscient lord of the courts and from here on out accept that western tines verdicts are all we need as a republic.
Hossblur went this direction and it wasn't about a sheep tag. I was amusing his hijacking. As for them being guilty, I guess we can get rid of the entire judicial system and just appoint you as omniscient lord of the courts and from here on out accept that western tines verdicts are all we need as a republic.
Tristate
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,894
Where are the "Henerey's"? All kidding asside could you please elaborate on your huntin' fool story. I would love to see how they resold a tag and made money off of it.
As for what went down, I have always stated I don't know what happened, BUT NEITHER DO YOU. So lay off the mudslinging.
As for what went down, I have always stated I don't know what happened, BUT NEITHER DO YOU. So lay off the mudslinging.
wstrntines
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,870
Well Tristate we wouldn't want you in the judicial system your lack of common sense and spelling are enough to deal with on a day to day basis. As well as your support for the guilty. Your last name wouldn't happen to be Clinton would it?
shadowhunter88
Member
- Messages
- 13
Henry's action tag was bought then used in their Bi-annual membership drive raffle. Granted One could not buy just a Henry's raffle ticket. Instead it was used as and enticement to buy a $200 ticket package consisting of their other hunts and they would include a Platinum Henry's raffle ticket.
