HA 102 tail spin

[feduptwo]

Thanks to the G&F refusal to cut hunter numbers in 102 the demise of what used to be a great hunt continues.
400 permits in a heavily roaded area like 102 are just too many hunters. For the last 5 years quality in this unit has been in a tailspin Age class has dropped (G&F statistics)
Do not put in for this hunt if you have any hope to chasing 165" deer. If your content with 140" (top end) bucks this is the unit for you. For the first time in 12 years I will not be putting in for deer in Southwest Wyoming. I don't even believe that with the unit in my backyard that I could scrape out a decent buck. I believe we now have a better chance of killing a nice buck in the general season areas of Southwest Wyoming.
I believe we should turn 102 into General season because it is obvious the G&F doesn't care about any quality limited quota hunt opportunities for mule deer in Wyoming. At least with 102 being general season we might see some relief of overcrowding in other units in Southwest Wyoming.
I would ask that you all call the Regional office of the G&F and express your dissatisfaction with their decision but I believe it's a waste of time as we've already had 20+ sportsmen at a ?idea? meeting ask the regional managers to lower the quota in HA 102. It apparently fell on deaf ears, again.

 

[TOPGUN]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-29-13 AT 06:28AM (MST)[p]How did you come up with 400 tags? I just added up all the 2012 tags issued to NRs in their four draws to the resident total and it added up to 371. That still seems like an awful lot for a LQ unit where there are problems, but it's quite a few less than 400. Looks like a lot of residents are being duped since there were over 4000 that applied for it as a first choice. Are you saying they're raisng it from that number to 400 for this year? If they are they have to be nuts from all the problems we're hearing about down there in southern Wyoming.

 

[SMOKESTICK]

I still contend that we should be demanding that the G&F start collecting the age of all mule deer harvested and that an average age of harvest be set for each and every mule deer unit.

How long have mule deer populations been in decline and exactly how has it worked out, as we wait for habitat conditions to improve? Seems doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome has already been define as lunacy.

Feduptwo,

Was Commissioner Anselmi at the meeting?

 

[TOPGUN]

With the deer in dire straights, I don't know why they don't start a mandatory reporting system online for everyone that has a tag just like NM does. If you don't report in you don't qualify for a license the following year and they enforce it. That, along with some tooth data taken from at least a decent percentage of animals at mandatory check stations during the season, would go a long way in at least knowing the exact number of anaimals being taken and what the age structure is. This garbage about using computer models only goes so far and if that unit is only producing animals like feduptwo stated it sounds like the age structure is out of wack and overkill may be one of the big causes.

 

[feduptwo]

TOPGUN if you add landowner tags (resident and nonresident) you will come up with 400. The quota has been 400 for 4-5yrs.

I didn't attend the meeting I was out of town working so I don't know who was there.

They take tooth data on a few deer and claim that last years age of harvest was 4.5 That is down from 5.5 and higher the last couple yrs. They claim the Buck/doe ratio is still low 30's. This year I'm doing my own classification because I think those numbers are nonsense.

102 is now completly ruined. General season here I come. I know of no quality LE opportunites for deer in Wyoming, pathedic. At least I can hunt Colorado every couple of yrs for a quality hunt.

 

[SMOKESTICK]

I know that we had some guys in attendance so I will check with them. I really wonder about getting a petition started to put before the commission at their next meeting, which is April 25-26 in Casper, WY. A petition was used by the G&F to shut down the late season hunt in hunt area 82. Maybe we need to take a similar action as well.

TOPGUN,

I think this may be the first time you & I have ever agreed upon something. If I were a betting man, I would bet that there will be a bill to require mandatory harvest reporting in Wyoming next year.

 

[TOPGUN]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-29-13 AT 09:32AM (MST)[p]Sorry about that, as I completely forgot about landowner tags coming into play that evidently don't show up anywhere in the draws to be counted. I'd like to see a few 4.5 or 5.5 year old bucks where I hunt because I don't think there are that many around. If the G&F is saying that's the age group being killed down there year in and year out with that number of hunters in the unit I'd have to say they are full of baloney!!! If you're not seeing bucks any better than you say you are, they are either young or are sure not growing any horns if they are 4.5+ years old.

Bob---I actually think we agree on an awful lot more than you may think. If anything comes up where us NRs can be of help on changing some of the G&F thoughts on this stuff please keep us advised. I know a lot of emails went out from us and made a huge difference in AZ a couple years ago and recently on various Bills in Wyoming and Montana.

 

[Zeke]

This is a sad deal but one which is repeated across the West!

I've never had the luck to hunt 102 but I knew it WAS a good unit..... up until about 5+ years ago. Too bad it's been run into the ground.

I think any good sportsman would be willing to participate in a mandatory reporting system but this will require additional funds for the cash-strapped G&F dept. Someone needs to step up and swallow a resident fee increase so the NR's don't have to cover it all! Come on Bob, we agree on a bunch of things but to keep the resident tag fees at the current bargain-basement price is ridiculous.

Something has to give!

Zeke

PS: Thanks all for the updates and your ideas. This affects us all whether we ever hunt 102 or not!

 

[HiMtnHntr]

I think they've kept the quota there the same even since the winter of 2007/2008 simply because the odds are already terrible. If they lower the quota the odds will be even worse and I think even now the odds for resident to draw are sub-10%! The bummer is that the chances of finding a bigger deer are about the worst they've been and deer are still getting killed.

Older age-class bucks (6+) are going to be rare in areas affected by that 2007/2008 winter. The amount of 6+ year old deer is very low. Hence the 140" younger bucks running around. To add insult to injury, most guys who draw 102 will settle because they don't want to go home empty after waiting so long, so they dump the 140" 4 pt on day 3 after seeing 10-15 little bucks every day. What older age class deer there are left are extremely tough to hunt in October and in addition to some scouting and serious persistence, lady luck will have to shine as well . . .

I agree that the quota in 102 needs to be adjusted. Too bad this comes at a time with the G&F is really hurting for money. I'd be surprised to see any major tag cuts this year.

 

[mulecreek]

TG said that residents were duped because 4000 put in for it. I dont think this is the case. A good portion of Rock Springs puts in for the tag because it is an easy hunt. I know several of my friends that when they get the tag will shoot the first buck they see. I was fortunate to have hunted 102 with a friend in 2000, my tag in 2001 and with my wife in 2002. I saw good trophy class bucks each of those years. I agree that a person stands just as good if not better chance for a trophy buck in many of the General areas of Wyoming but you wont find an easier hunt than 102.

Wyoming does not manage for trophy class animals. They manage for oportunity. Whether it is deer, elk, moose, sheep, whatever. It will take more than harvest reporting to change that. The number of people in Wyoming that want opportunity is much higher than those that want trophies. I believe they are managing to what the majority wants.

 

[Triple_BB]

They do manage some areas for trophy, but they don't call it that. The areas where they're trying to increase quality is where they manage for higher buck to doe ratios. 87 & 89 are two areas that come to mind. Don't know if that's still the case, but they talk about it at their spring meetings. As for opportunity, I'd agree with that. Way more folks just want to go hunting than are concerned with trophy quality. And I hope it stays that way as I think it'll be a significant factor in keeping the G&F from changing everything to limited quota state wide for deer...

 

[TOPGUN]

I'll bet that is the case mulecreek. I'm probably the one being duped because when I see a unit is LQ I immediately think of a trophy opportunity. If the animals are doing real well that may be the case, but when they're not it's a whole different story like you guys are mentioning. I'd hate to be a G&F Biologist and do all my work, make my suggestions after all that work, and then have the higher ups say that's nice but we can't go educated suggestions because the tag numbers need to stay the same or go up so we can make our budget. That's just another big reaosn why the G&F needs to be either supported a lot more from General Fund money or some other type of tax that results in money coming in that doesn't depend on the animal populations.

 

[Zeke]

Do you guys who know the unit think that it's LQ because of the ease of access then? Must be huh?
Zeke

 

[PleaseDear]

The number of applicants affect your draw results---more so than the number of tags..

400-- 102 deer tag's is way overboard and the LO tags will never change....as SFW-Wyo needs the LO's and the Outfitters as a major part of their Political Clout.

I spend allot of my freetime in 102 Deer/31/32 Elk and I see less and less deer most every spring/summer/fall.

Antelope are just fine.

Maybe blow out/increase the elk tag numbers every 3rd year and see some benefit to the deer herd??

Or----have a sub-unit 102-A for the unit 30 elk overlap north end as many of the LO 102 deer tags are up in that area of 102 deer/elk 30...?

We that really enjoy--almost love 102 deer from many years, just do not have any group to beleive in without them having a freaking self gain agenda involved.

Robb

 

[onthehunt]

Seen this slowly coming for about 10 years. The G&F has been asked to cut tags year in and year out. But only one thing is important to them, MONEY NOW. They use the excuse 102 is an opportunity hunt. Therefore they issue a higher # of tags. They have been asked for years to reduce the tag #'s and increase the fees. It dont happen. WHY? The G&F can control the tag #'s but they cant control the price of the tags so they push a unit to destruction to pay the bills and keep in buss. Its pathetic!

Avid hunters show up at our local meetings religiously expressing thier thoughts and giving ideas hoping to see more deer and better quality. These people truly care about our muledeer and enjoy them whether they draw a tag in the unit or not.
You never see the guy or family at the meetings that just want to kill a deer. Never. And they are the ones that draw this tag.These people our the G&F opportunity hunters and they pay the bills.

 

[wolfhunter]

For the number of 102 applicants you can thank the guys that are in the business of recommending hunt areas. Not too long ago 102 was a sleeper unit. But one magazine in particular changed that.

Sooner or later the nonresidents are going to figure out holding on to max points is simply a ponzi scheme. Wyoming has no Henry Mountains. And will not until they stop managing for the budget. Too many hunters for the resource is a common theme for the WGFD they must have learned that from IDFG...

I also wonder when hunters are going to have realize with all of technology to shoot from one mountain range to the next we are going to pay the price. Less hunters are doing far more damage to the resource. We need to take the pressure off our mule in all of western Wyoming!!!

 

[piper]

wolfhunter- I think we are already paying the price, seems to me that its been a steady downhill ride for most of Wyomings deer herds for some years now, at least as far as the quality goes.
The region G and H biologist has printed up a paper implying that the deer quality is as good as its ever been in those areas, and there are some good bucks still being taken,
the problem is he overlooks the fact that intense hunting pressure and technology is mostly responsible for that fact, its definitely not because the herds are as good as the once were.

 

[wolfhunter]

Piper,
I could not agree more... The WGFD is using data to smokescreen the truth! They use their numbers to push the tag selling agenda. When you confront them with it and attempt work with them for better management they always go back to... How can you document the decline in mule deer. When if they (WGFD) were being honest with themselves a blind man could see they are allowing the slow destruction of the last stronghold of good public land mule deer hunting...

The Wyoming resident has the power to change this direction we are on if they/we simply could agree to give up something for the future. Idaho could never give up their opportunities either. Mule deer should be put on the endangered species list in some units in Idaho. I hope Wyoming is a little smarter in the end....

I guess this is what we get when the liberal professors are teaching our biologists how to think... Over Educated and blind to common sense!!!

 

[TOPGUN]

Rather than putting all the blame on the biologists, maybe a lot of the blame should be put on an outdated system that is now self defeating. I'm talking about the fact that tags sold are what keeps the department running. Change the fact that the majority of money to run the department comes from license sales and just maybe we would be on the way to changing the problems we're talking about. As long as license sales pay for 60% or more of the yearly budget, IMHO nothing is going to change for the positive, no matter whether the biologists recommend the proper things to the higher ups or not! I believe if we could all get together and come up with a new funding mechanism that could lessen the requirement to keep tag sales high, we then could begin to solve this problem.

 

[wolfhunter]

Topgun,

So what your saying in YHO is we could just let the top level Biologist go or fire them for not doing their job!! Noticeably the money we pay them is simply thrown down a rat hole. They will never do what is right because it may hurt the budget. They should be accountable for the lack spine to do their job and really help the mule deer left.

In the end, all they (WGF) will do is stick up for each other and continue on until there is nothing left of the herd. Then blame it on habitat, winter kill, oil'n gas, ranchers and outfitters. I have never heard one red shirt stand up and say.... We were wrong about our management or even their counting methods. Which truth be known they were dead wrong about both for decades!!!!!

 

[TOPGUN]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-30-13 AT 06:30PM (MST)[p]Not sure what YHO means? No, I think you somewhat missed my point in that maybe they are doing their job the best they can and when they go back and tell their higher up bosses what needs to be done they are told to go back out and make excuses to the public because it isn't possible the way the G&F is funded. I'm not saying that's the case because I'm not out there in a G&F Office seeing what is happening, but if they tell the big brass to cut tags and/or do other things and they won't do it there is not much they can do other than play along or quit. I faced that same BS for years up here when I worked for the state. I put forth a lot of ideas that could have saved money and increased productivity in our Division and nothing ever happened. It gets to the point where you just say "f**k it" and count the days until you can retire and get the he** out of Dodge. I was asked one day by our Assistant Director why I didnt apply for one of our Regional Supervisor positions when they opened up because I would surely be picked for one. I told him I had to put up with enough BS out in the field from the brass and would just as soon stay out there for the little difference in pay and being as far from politics as I could be. He smiled and said I probably was right! Again, I'm not saying that is the case that is causing the Wyoming problems at all and maybe the biologists aren't worth a dang, but just offering an idea that maybe that could have something to do with it.

 

[CAelknuts]

A couple week ago I ran into a buddy who hunted unit 102 last year. He told me it was terrible and that he had a real tough time finding any bucks older than 3 year age class. The last day of the season he got lucky and killed a bomber of a buck, scored 212". Even with that buck of a lifetime, he told me it was a poor hunt and he would not recommend it if I was interested in a good deer hunt. This particular guy hunts big mule deer all over the west and Mexico and has killed more giant bucks than most of us will ever see in our lifetimes. He told me he got plain old lucky to bump into this buck, nothing more than that. When he told me the unit sucks, I scratched it off of consideration for my future applications.

I think it says a lot when an experienced hunter kills a giant buck in a unit and still says it sucks.

 

[nontypical]

Bob-Amselmi was in attendance at the meeting.

Also,before the subject of genetics could even be brought up,the regional biologist stated that G&F was not going to introduce any management changes to address the obvious genetic problems that many of us locals can plainly see in the unit.Reasoning was that the doe supplies 50% of the genes.I guess if the genetically inferior buck isn't there to breed the genetically inferior doe,it wouldn't matter?Sure seems to me it would help by about 50%.But then,I'm just one of those idiots that keep attending these meetings hoping for change.I would like to see 50 of the 400 tags put into a management draw for 3 pt or less on one antler to relieve some pressure off of the trophy segment of the buck population.

CAelknuts-Your friend was indeed lucky last year!That is the best buck I've heard of coming from the unit.Until I heard of that buck,the biggest I know of last year was a sub-180 class.My outfitter friend looked over 400+ bucks last year and never found a shooter buck for his hunters.Maybe it was the drought conditions?We'll find out,I suppose.Could be the winter of '07-'08?I sure hope so!!Maybe he just sucks?Not.

Someone above mentioned good hunting in 2000 through 2002.It was good hunting back then,but that's probably about the time the general decline began.The 190 and 200 class or better bucks are fewer and farther between these days-and every year seems to be worse than the previous.By G&F's own admission,age class dropped last year from 5.2 to 4.5 avg on harvest.HELLO!!!!Is anyone home there???

Business as usual.

 

[feduptwo]

1 big deer out of the 350 harvested. There is not a General area in Wyoming that I don't have that kind of chances. Did your friend happen to stumble into unit 201 in Colorado?