high fence hunt

G

giant34buck

Guest
i am wondering what do you think of high fence hunt on any animals, how big in acres do you think is more reasonable to hunt on high fence? etc? i know this might be hot topic but let's hear on that one from every body.
 
Just say no to canned hunts PERIOD. It does not matter how big the property is the animals cannot escape. I would never participate in one.
 
No such thing as a reasonable high fence hunt area. Wildlife ain't livestock - enclosing them behind high fences makes them exactly that. Fair chase is the rule for true sportsmen - high fences (no matter the acreage) negates that. If I was in a high fence area, I'd rather be the critter that gets shot than the critter that does the shooting.
mark
 
So whats the difference between an Island and a big fenced ranch? I definitely dont agree with fenced hunts, but acreage would matter to me!!!
 
Mule deer were never accepted by B&C from Santa Rosa Island off the California coast for the "fenced" reasoning. I believe that island is about 50,000 acres.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
Personnally I myself would never consider a fenced hunt of any kind, I agree with others that it is not fair chase.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-14-05 AT 09:40PM (MST)[p]Sounds like the first two responses were based on personal opinion rather than logic and experience dealing with high fenced properties. I've personally worked on 20,000 acres of privately owned property that was high fenced not with the intent of "enclosing " the animals, but rather to keep nieghboring ranches from shooting everything that moves, so that the landownercan could give the herd that resides on his land the ability to reach their full potential in in age class, the best in pasture quality for the best forage, and reep the benifits of having the best of genetics passed along to the future generations of trophys on his piece of land. There are tons of ranches out there with that intent. Not to "ENCLOSE" the animals so that they can be shot like fish in a bucket. Thats just not so.
Thats not to say that everyone is'nt entitled to their own beliefs and opinions. Sure, there are alot of bad apples in the high fence hunting industry that have given it a bad rap in some people's eyes, but to say that ALL high fenced properties are "canned" is bull. Hell, I'd be willing to bet that on your best outings ever, you've never covered that much ground of unfenced public land in your longest outings on hunts. That is a lot of ground to hide in for an animal and a helluva LOT of country to cover for a hunter, whether on foot, quad, truck, or any other vehicle for that matter. But hey, we all know what opinions are like!!! Cuz we all got one.....


---Scottyboy---
 
I agree with Scotty, acreage matters, what do you do when that big Muley buck bounds down the canyon on public land? Usually nothing, on a big ranch you would do the same thing, go check another spot....Now if it was 300 acres, youd keep chasing him till he got stuck in the corner:-( Some say it doesnt, but SIZE MATTERS!!!
 
Regardless of 'SIZE' or 'INTENT' it's just wrong and should be outlawed . It's not fair chase and shouldn't be considered hunting at all .
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-14-05 AT 10:41PM (MST)[p]If it's high fenced it's not fair chase. If it's a four strand barbed wire fence that deer can easily jump then it's ok. I don't care if people want to do it just don't call it hunting. Just my opinion.
 
I agree with the abstainers, it is a personal choice to me and it doesn't matter how many acres I won't pay to hunt behind a fence. I want to hunt free roaming wild game on my own terms and the fence is not included.
 
Scottyboy, first let me say this....
I do not dissagree with folks harvesting animals that are unnaturally enclosed, but it seems uncanny to me that "high fence" and "hunt" are used in the same sentence.
I am not sure which state you worked in that the "high fence" kept "neighboring ranches" from shooting "everything that moved" but I am venturing to say the majority of the "game" or "alternative livestock" in the enclosure you worked in was originally brought in from another unnatural enclosure that prevented them from escaping?
The way you make it sound, Mr. Landowner one day dropped a game proof barrier around 20,000 acres to prevent the game that happened to be there at the time from being massacred by the local nimrods.
The thought of some rich numbskull corraling a share of the wildgame my tax-hunting dollars have helped exist to see how big they can grow an animal, or how much $ they can get for it is ludachrist.
1. Saving game from an untimely death by the neighboring ranch hands? BS!!!!!!
2. Allowing the herd to grow old in peace? BS!!!!!!!
3. Letting the "prisoners" get fat on the wonderfull prison food? BS!!!!!!
4. Allowing "Grampa Trophy" to pass on his inbred genes to his daughter on some bigwigs peice of unexcapable land? (Which I am assuming is not accesible to you or I free of charge?) BS!!!!!!!
5. This is the cold hard truth.... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!, which is a very nice thing might I add, wish I had more. Again, I do NOT oppose harvesting animals that are enclosed, but please DO NOT call it a hunt or make an attempt to justify it for any other reason than somones profit!
NUFF SAID, Bittersweet
 
Well I say there are to many variables. Down here in Texas folks began high fencing not to keep deer in but to keep bad neighbors out. If a man owns some property and hunts it and keeps passing on deer thinking he will let them grow up and meet their potential only to see them jump the fence and get shot by a group of blood thirsty killers, that blast everything that moves on their property then I say fence your neighbor out. Now of course I am talking about white tails, a non migratory animal down here in the south. Now don't get me wrong I know a vast majority of high fenced ranches also like to grow big deer and it is all about the money as it was so eliquently put in one of the post' above. Personaly for white tail down here in Texas I think a man should have at least 3,000 acres in order to high fence If I were going to hunt it. In other words I would not hunt a place smaller than 3,000 acres that was high fenced. That is just my opinion. Any smaller and I agree you are getting into canned hunts.

Now out West where elk and mule deer "migrate" great distances I do not think there should be a high fence any where and I would consider a high fence in this situation a canned hunt. Now with that said I would have to make an exception. That would be for that property that was so emence that the animals had a place to winter and to summer (and I have no clue what size ranch that would be) that a high fence in this situation would be OK for me.

I have hunted white tails on low fence and high fence ranches of many thousands of acres and there is no difference in the hunt. The deer behind a high fence are just as wild and wiley as low fence.

Now the last place I had been hunting on for the last 6 years was high fenced on 3 sides only just to keep the bad neighbors out.

Just my .02


"We MUST Hunt"
 
No Scottyboy my response is based on logic not opinion. If you lock out predators and keep game animals in it is still an artificial environment. I understand the point that the larger the ranch the tougher to find animals but the point is still that sooner or later if you put in enough time you should be able to harvest the animal you are seeking because it will always be in the "corral" somewhere. This does not happen on open range.


And to say that I have not covered 20,000 acres on one of my best outings is probably not accurate. I am not good at the converisons but on my recent scouting trip we walked about 20-25 miles in 48 hours. This does not include all of the terrain we used to cover with our eyes. Do the conversion and let me know how many acres that is.
 
I agree with what SoTX says. I too hunt in south Texas, and on a 20K acre high fenced ranch - I promise you that in that brush those deer dont give a rats #$% about the fence! I can't speak for muleys or elk on how much land they need and don't believe they can be compared to whitetails, but my opinion for whitetails at least is that it is ok for a pasture to be high fenced if you have fence line hunters on small parcels of land surrounding you. I have passed up many 2 and 3 year old "good" bucks only to see a bordering neighbor slaughter them one by one. Eventually the area gets "shot out" and takes years to recharge if it ever does. Having cooperative meetings with the neighbors is a good option that can work but many times does not. Short term hunters who disrespect the land are commonly found on those type places. Bottom line - I am ok with it for whitetails if the ranch is large enough - at least 5 thousand acreas. You guys will probably shoot holes in me now.
 
Bittersweet, this was a quate from your last post.
"I am not sure which state you worked in that the "high fence" kept "neighboring ranches" from shooting "everything that moved" but I am venturing to say the majority of the "game" or "alternative livestock" in the enclosure you worked in was originally brought in from another unnatural enclosure that prevented them from escaping?"
Well, you ventured to say and you ventured wrong.
Again, statements made based on personal opinion and not on facts. Oh yeah, the state I was working was the state of the Northern Providence in the COUNTRY of SOUTH AFRICA. Ya didn't see that one coming before ya fired back did ya?? So yes, everything you just said to try and make me look like the ass just backfired in your face because you hit the nail on the head!!!

" The way you make it sound, Mr. Landowner one day dropped a game proof barrier around 20,000 acres to prevent the game that happened to be there at the time from being massacred by the local nimrods."
Local nimrods yes. They were everywhere. Of course. Ever heard that poaching is rappant on the continent of AFRICA!!! So yes there Bittersweet, he did EXACTLY that. He had the fence put up to protect the animals that resided on his land to be protected from being shot by the hundreds of poachers that lived in the area and made a living by doing exactly that: Poaching.... I protect my investments, don't you??

The reason I chose to use this one expirence of a fenced property was not to start an arguement, but to show you that there are very different circumstances with the fence can be used in a positive light and used correctly, a great management tool. But hey, I ain't twisting anyone's arm to go hunt behind one. Just don't knock it till ya aleast know all the facts.


---Scottyboy---
 
Scotty boy, Yes, you ARE right. I didnt see that one coming. It never even crossed my mind you were refering to a different country, with a different management system, a different economy, and a country where hunting really IS the life and death of the poverty struck citizens.
Sorry I "knocked it before I knew all the facts" but you could have in your first post mentioned you were refering to "high fence" harvests overseas, or mabey you could have ended with a "to be continued" or mabey a "before any of you MM ethical sportsman respond to this post let it be known I am just egging you on and I will post ALL OF THE FACTS at a later date so I can be the big dog that says, told ya so"
My OPINION is you STILL look like just a big of an ASS as you did before for "leading on the witness"
When you say the poachers "made a living" poaching, my OPINION is that some of them did JUST that , "made a living" as opposed to many poachers in the United States who poach for bragging rights.
Mabey I should just keep my babbling opinionated mouth shut until I am sure you have posted all the REST of the facts.
Mabey the exact African province, and location, owner at the time, what types of game, how they were harvested, the date you worked there and how much it cost to harvest an animal in the enclosure?
And then you can mabey give all of us your OPINION on high fenced harvest in the Western United States for, lets say, mule deer, 20,000 acres or less, 12 foot woven wire for under $6000.00 American dollars.
You wanna piss vinegar, Ill piss it right back. I would say "nuff said" again but you see how that worked last time.
Bittersweet
 
I get it ;
Just explain to the animals that the fence is for their own safety , to protect them from the bad guys on the neighboring ranches and they're free to leave at any time .

I'm sure those animals will feel better about being killed behind a high fence as long as the killer (not hunter) has a clear conscience .
 
and if their still not convinced explain to them the difference in quality between your feed pellets and the neighbors .
 
I say that hunting on Public Land is real hunting! I hunt on both private (no high fence) and public land. Public land hunts are the real deal. Start fencing and it becomes a game preserve in my opinion. I don't go to the zoo with a loaf of bread when I want to go fishing. It would be fun though.
 
You know this really is a crazy argument. We all know the difference between a high fenced ranch and a canned hunt. Which we can all agree none of us agree with nor condone canned hunts. We as hunters all share a common philosify and fellowship and we should be tollerant of different hunting methods such as the high fence issue. The anti's just love to see fellow hunters down on one another it just gives them more ammo. Yes we should police our own when we can but dogging out fellow hunters on a message board for everyone to see is not smart. Tollerance guys tollerance.
Hell down here in Texas it is perfectly leagal to set up deer feeder and hunt those feeders, perfectly leagal to hunt from a high racked vehicle, perfectly leagal to hunt from a "fort" as some on this web site call it when refering to a blind. But just cause it is different then the way guys hunt in the mountain states don't make it wrong. I just think we as hunters should pick our fights wisely and hang tough together against the anti's.
Again just my .02


"We MUST Hunt"
 
SOTX, My OPINION is that alot of anti hunters think calling an unnaturally enclosed (previously wild) harvest of an animal, "a hunt" is alot more ammo for their bandolier than other hunters reccomending people not to call it "a hunt" at all in fear it will be put in the same catagory by the antis as, lets say, a Rocky Mt. Goat hunt @ 10,000 ft 20 miles from the nearest road. Yes, you know the difference, I know the difference, all of us probably do including Scottyboy.
More than likely the anti hunters (in the back of their minds) know the difference as well. But their short title, I believe sums up the majority of them. "ANTI HUNTERS" not "anti high fence hunters" The picture they more than likely portray to the undecided, uneducated public (including our children) will be the one of animals being chased in circles, in an unexcapable enclosure rather than the one of me (Im dreaming and hoping I draw a goat tag one day) spending two days climbing with my gear in God forsaken terrain just to reach the area where the free roaming game I am "hunting" calls home.
Bittersweet
 
Not for me thanks. Everyone is entitiled to their own perception of "fair chase". This idea probably includes someones' capabilities and how much effort they can put forth in a hunt.
For instance, a disabled hunter might be inclined to accept a fenced area hunt based on his/her limited physical skills. The acreage and setting of the hunt are the issues that make it acceptable or unacceptable for some people.
Would you tell someone wheelchair bound that they are an unethical hunter because they chose to hunt a private entity with relatively easy access and a fence? Situational fair chase?
 
Well Bittersweet there may be a lot of god forsaken country to pack through to hunt. But in most states there is not. In fact Texas is 95% privately owned land and if a free American wants to high fence his land and hunt it then he should be able to just that. I agree your hunt you describe is one of great challenge and arguably more sporting. But don't deny a guy in a state with no public land to hunt the right to fence out bad neighbors or high fence for management.
If you have ever hunted private property you know the devastation a bad neighbor has on a deer heard.
I think you have to adapt and hunt regions differently based on what you are delt.
Yes I hunt out west on public and private land from Montana, Wyoming, Colorado and New Mexico but at the same time I hunt private property in Texas some behind high fences on large acerage and some behind a low fence.
We as hunters should not be so high and mighty about a particular way in which we hunt. Like hunting leagaly one way is somehow makes you a better person or hunter than another guy.
You follow me here. So if you follow your logic you could argue the same point between rifle hunters and bow hunters and trad bow vs. compound and centerfire vs. black powder and tree stand vs. spot and stalk and guided and unguided. You see what I am saying. I am not sure this is an argument the hunting community should be having.
Now I am not saying that what we are debating on this message board is the be all end all but it could affect attitudes towards our group of which I think in lies the greatest Americans of all. Hunters.


"We MUST Hunt"
 
SoTX ,
Agreed , we shouldn't give the antis more ammo .
Wouldn't it be easier not to talk about high fences , deer feeders or high racked vehicles ?
 
I'm against high fence hunting!

P.S. If anybody out there knows of a high fence hunt with 190 plus (net) mule deer for under $1000 please PM me!:)

Steve
 
I have a good friend who operates a high fenced ranch for elk. It is 1000 acres in prime elk habitat. There is timber and quakies towards the top of the ranch and oak brush and P&J on the lower section. They had a 400 class bull they were hunting on the ranch this year, and it just flat out eluded them for 6 days and finally the hunter took another bull. You get on a big ranch, and fence or no fence, it's a hunt. We booked my grandpa a hunt on this ranch this year. He's 79 years old and doesn't get around to well, and I know he'll be happy with whatever he gets. IMO this is a great hunt for him. While I probably wouldn't hunt a high fenced ranch right now I may consider it when I'm past my prime. I guess the bottom line is, if a guy wants to hunt a high fenced ranch that is his progitive.

Mike
 
high fence hunts,whitetail hunting! same thing just say nope not for me!
give me a muley in the open high country every time!
rack
 
I dont agree with high fenced hunts. The one occation that i do think that it is ok is for the disabled, kids that have cancer and cant get around in the mountains like the rest of us can. For those certain people i have no problem with the fences but everyone else can get off their lazy butts and do some actual hunting.
 
SOTX, I "kinda" agree with you on the private property thing, and "kinda" dont. I agree that a person that owns his own property may keep other people off of it. I do not agree that just because a person owns a peice of property they can entrap the animals that exist there at the time for whatever reason.
I AM NOT familiar with the Texas game laws, although I have met alot of nice folks from Texas.
Is it legal in Texas to totally high fence your private property, keeping whatever animals live inside from leaving? If so, the part of that plan that bugs me is the game that is entrapped more than likely had benefitted at one time by other "free American" tax dollars, and I am assuming the private landowner doesent cut everyone else a little (I know its little $, but the principal) that no longer has access to the game they once supported?
On the other hand, let me tell you a couple OPINIONS I have that show I am not a total anti high fence nut.
I believe it is ok (at least in my book) to confine "alternative livestock" for whatever reason as long as it was purchased legally from another "alternative livestock" keeper, I am refering to stock that has been kept and bred for several generations in enclosures, with paperwork, vet checks ect.
I do not have a problem with people harvesting those animals (humanely as possible), I jusdt wish there was a better term to lump that in besides a "hunt"
And yes folks, Mr. Bittersweetmuleymeat voted AGAINST an innitiative that passed in Montana that will inevidabely weed out most folks keeping deer and elk in pens, of any size, for whatever reason. It is NO LONGER legal here to acept $ in ANY FORM for allowing somone to harvest most previously wild game, (Muleys, Whiteys, Elk) I voted AGAINST banning "game farms" here, but I still dont like to call it a hunt and I still dont like the fact that somone can entrap wild animals on their private land to benefit from them and keep the rest of them from ever being able to acces them again.
Bittersweet
 
that is good to hear from everybody's opinions and please keep it coming and we need to hear from other guys and their thoughts!
I learns something new and should be good for others! thanks!
 
I have to go with Pope and Young and Boone and Crockett. High fence hunting should be outlawed everywhere in the U.S. Don't give me the Texas sob story, either. Texas is the land of corn feeders and high rack trucks. Lots of bad sportsmen from Texas. Lots of great sportsmen, also. It's time for Texas to clean up it's act and tear down the fences and go hunting like the rest of the world. If your neighbor shoots "your" deer, go shake his hand and help him clean it. Unless, of course you are afraid to get blood on your hands. Then, just pay a Mexican to clean it for him.
 
Cabinfever said: "..79 years old and doesn't get around to well, and I know he'll be happy with whatever he gets" referin to this High Fence, I'll call it "event".

Exactly the point people is trying to make. He WILL get an elk. Take a look at hunts in open public land units in the west. Elk hunters have Nominal success rates less than 10% usually. This 79 year old man will be happy with whatever he gets, and he's CERTAIN to "get".

He just won't have hunted. Hunting hasn't occurred when the outcome was certain. Selecting between animals in an environment that guarantees success, unaturually high populations, with limited and known areas for feeding and bedding and elimination of predators is a way to put meat in the freezer or make a profit if your the land owner. But no one has hunted.

I don't care if you want to harvest meat from somebody selling meat. But don't dress that pig in a skirt and call it a lady.
 
Warren, you have proved yourself not only extremely ignorant but racist as well. I bet you're fun to share a campfire with.
 
Warren,
I try my best to stay away from the ?mud-slinging? & name calling that sometimes goes on around here, however after reading your post I'm embarrassed for you. Seriously, get a grip
 
Getting back to the subject, I like the term "guide" in high fence hunts, or at least how it is with elk hunts in these shooting shops as I call them. The guide is there for one reason only, to be the sales clerk, quoting what price one bull is from another. I like the term 'management bulls' these shooting shops harbor too, seems unless the white horned, humand domesticated non-wild elk are 350 + bulls, they are sub-standard, low priced hunts. You guys who hunt these high fence elk hunts in the west, and east into South Dakota, etc. are in no way harboring fair chase. I liked the real time story of a high fence elk operation near Craig, CO. that imported (these bulls are inventory folks) a 6 pt. tame bull in on a horse trailer, then released the bull about an hour before the great white hunter showed up. Seems the elk when released chased the horse trailer back, seemingly knowing that was his only sanctuary. A neighbor witnessed it all. An hour later the confused bull was someones TROPHY. Enough to make Teddy Roosevelt roll over in his grave. Make no mistake the high fence hunts will be the poster child of the anti hunters, and they will likely find strange bedfellows in alot of other real hunters whom are outraged by any animal being held prisoner so some fool can take a picture with a dead tame animal. Real what Jim Posewitz says about these high fence hunts. Jim espouts what should be the future of hunting, and it is exactly opposite from these shooting shop, 1 day guaranteed, country club style, yes I am your guide and do you have certified funds, and yes I know where the buck or bull lies every afternoon, kinds of slaughters.
 
walltenthunter,

Have you been drinking????

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
I have a family ranch in Texas that was purchased by my grandfather in 1908. We have always tried to be good stewards of the land and its critters. We hunt/harvest the excess and leave a good population to continue the resouce. Recently a ranch on one side of us sold and is being split up into small "ranchettes". It is fairly common for a real estate company to buy such places and break it up into small, "ranchetes" with "great hunting". Usually these are 25 to 50 acres each. In our area, there is about a deer per 10-15 acres, so on 50 acres, there could be maybe 5 deer.

There is no way to hunt deer on a 25-50 acre property and maintain good wildlife ratios, etc. What happens is they set up a couple of feeders on their fenceline to draw deer from neighbors pastures to hunt. Now, the deer that reside on my land and the "ranchetes" are both public property, but I don't think that gives someone who owns the 50 acres to kill 10 bucks on his property. And belive my that happens all the time around here.

If that comes to reality on the boder of my property, I will do my best to be able to afford building a deer proof fence on that boundary. I won't have a high fence around the entire ranch, and I don't see that happening, but If I was surrounded by such "ranchetes" I would consider it.

Of COURSE I am against canned hunts.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
David as Texans we can understand your point. But these boys on this site that hunt out west on public property don't understand it. I will try and illistrate my point.
I say we don't fence deer in we fence bad neighbors out. No I am not for canned hunts and despise them and those that do it. What a lot of these guys do not understand is that there is little to no public hunting land in the Great State of Texas. 95% of the land here is privatly owned and has a fence around it. So if ya want to hunt deer you have to either own land, lease land or buy a package hunt. If you want to have trophy quality deer you have to either have a very large property, great neighbors with common goals, or a high fence. With out one of these things working for you you will most likely have very, very few if any trophy class animals. It could be equated to a limited entry area for hunting out west. Sure there is no high fence but in lieu of a high fence the Government makes the area a limited draw so only very, very few can hunt the area; hence the Government is esentially "Fencing" hunters out, so only those lucky enough can hunt this area that season. We have no option like this in Texas so a lot of times a high fence is a land owner/hunters only option.

Now I want to reitterate I in no way support the type of hunting that was described above where an elk is trucked in by horse trailer for some person to kill and calim a great hunt and set of horns. That my friends is not hunting, that is killing.

"We MUST Hunt"
 
SOTX,
Good argument you put forth. These guys just dont understand but when tags are almost non existent due to to habitat loss from development etc.. They will be begging to hunt Texas or bitchin still . See ya on TBH brother
 
If hunting ever gets so bad I have to "shoot", notice I didn't say "hunt" a high fence ranch that's when I'll hang it up.I don't care how big the enclosure is it's still a canned hunt IMO. I'd rather take a spike on a fair chase hunt than a 455 safari club on a canned shoot.
 
do a little search, this topic has been discussed in some depth and I am sure you find some very good arguments!

E
 
Bittersweet..

It offends you that some high-fenced hunts are called "hunts?"

If the challenge for hunting and opportunity for the animal to escape is there... how is that different that say an unfenced hunt where theres extremely easy hunting for large trophies (limied quotas during the rut and on winter range and/or on a big exclusive private property with tons and tons of large trophies)??

Seems that most who are offended and cry foul to a good hi-fence property are the first to apply for special permits that offer childs-play type hunts, or line up to hunt on Ted Turner's place or the bearpaws or something like that. And what about these bison "hunts"?

I say hypocracy is worse than a high fence.
 
High fence "hunting" of mule deer and elk I am totally against and would not support no matter how large the area. Whitetail deer it's a little more acceptable, in my opinion, as long as the deer are truly wild. I don't agree with whitetails being bred like livestock and then sold to "hunters."
 
Yea Bob D. I know what ya mean. I know a guy that owns 2,000 acres all high fenced in South Texas. There is 500 acres that he uses for whitetail breeding. Big time genetics. The remaining 1,500 acres does not have a single living breathing deer on it. Two months before deer season he sells hunts for a certain amount of bucks from his breeding area. All the bucks are 51/2 years old or older. He has guys come out or he sends them film of each of the bucks aloted. Then the guys pick the buck they want and about a month before the season starts he turns these pen raised deer loose into the 1,500 acre pasture and his customers come in and hunt the pasture for their pre selected deer. I just do not see how a guy could be proud of hunting like that. I think he is what they call a scientific deer breeder. That kind of hunting is messed up.

"We MUST Hunt"
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-05 AT 02:03PM (MST)[p]Here are my ideas on the subject

1- I guess high fence hunts CAN be real hunts, if the size of the fenced ranch, the cover, the number of animals.. are such that the hunt is difficult enough. Personally I've never hunted behind high fence, and would prefer to remain inexperienced in that regard.

2- Hunting methods vary from place to place, depending on many factors : private/public land, habitat, cover, species, traditions. Some places, on large tracts of public land, are very challenging to hunt. Others are much easier to physically access and hunt. Most of us hunt where we can, not where we would like, at least most of the time.

3- Easy access generally means poor hunting, unless you control a lot of acreage, or licenses are limited.

4- Now if you own/lease a huge tract of prime habitat, then control hunting pressure, make foodplot, you will obviously improve hunting conditions with more/bigger game, with or without fences. Does that makes you a better hunter ? NO !!! If you use a outfitter to access such private land, does that make you a better hunter ? NO WAY !!!

5- A 5 year old animal of typical size for the species is a better trophy than a 3 year old animal of gigantic proportion, wihen such size was attained with foodplots, management "hunts" and such.

6- The ultimate trophy is not only an animal of this or that size. It is one relative to the hunting conditions in which it was taken. If you kill a 280 bull on public land with unlimited tags, or kill a 340 bull on a private ranch, with a guide, on a 8000$ hunt, during migration, which one will make you prouder ? I'm not saying that it's wrong to pay a guide, or to access private land, but stay modest when someone else is doing a lot of the work for you.
My buddy stalked a moose this september, after calling him in himself, then shot him with bow and arrow at 30 yds. So what if the bull was only 32 inch wide. Another hunter there got a monster 64 inch bull, with a guide and a rifle, and he was nice enough to say that my friend was a heck of a hunter, much better than he was.

7- Canned killing is not hunting. And hunting magazine should get rid of these ads that say "no permit required", "guaranteed trophy" and such.

8- Commercial ranches using "management tools" such as foodplot, selective killing of non-trophy animals, restriction of hunting pressure, exist to make $$$$$. It is wrong when the fee dictates the size of the animal you're allowed to shoot, behind high fence or not.

So hunting ethics is more than a matter of fence or no fence.

Martin Cloutier
 
Okay, I'll be honest. I do have less of a problem with fenced hunts on very large acreages, let's say about 30,000+ acres, as long as there's plenty of natural habitat and places for the animals to hide. (30,000 acres is almost 47 square miles or nearly an 8 mile by 8 mile square) That being said, I have absolutely NO desire to hunt behind a high fence. I think that there are enough places where I can hunt that don't have the fences, to where I'm sure I'll never see them all. What really aggrevates me is like what soom of the others have said before - these small "ranches" that treat the animals like livestock - I mean if thats what you want, I'll sell you a trophy Black Angus hunt for a couple G's. I also don't like the prices that some of these places are getting for these farmed deer, I like a huge buck as much as the next guy, but that ain't everything is it? I know some people want the head to show off and brag about thier "hunt" and that if someone is willing to pay it then "why not?", but I don't think that everything should be about the almighty $$$. I think that these enclosures with the huge animals are killing the sport we all love. Sorry, I got to rambling there...

Keep the Sun at Your Back and the Wind in Your Face
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-05 AT 02:06PM (MST)[p]The National Rifle Association's magazine "American Hunter" has a large number of ads for hunting with "guaranteed kills," "100% success," "no license required," etc.

If NRA membership wasn't a requirement for the shooting range I am a member of, I would cancel the NRA for that reason.

Anytime you have guaranteed success with no license required, that is obviously a "canned hunt." I don't think any hunting magazine should give those types of businesses any advertising space.

I have to wonder what non-hunters will think if they happen to look through one of these magazines.
 
You covered 20-25 linear miles. Linear measurements don't just "convert over" to area measurements such as acres. Methinks you weren't real good in geometry.
 

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