I400 Condensed

[bobcatbess]

RE: JUDAS wiley!!!

DON'T START THIS BULL$HIT WITH ME Pro!!!

I'VE TOLD YOU MANY TIMES ABOUT AN LE UNIT THAT IS COMPLETELY JUNK NOW DUE TO PISS POOR MANAGEMENT!!!

I SEEN IT WITH MY OWN EYES!!!

I DON'T GIVE A #### RATHER YOU BELIEVE ME OR NOT???

YOU SHOOT NEARLY ALL THE COWS!!!

YES YOU'LL HAVE MORE BULLS THAN YOU NEED!!!

I WONDER WTF CAUSED THAT???

I AIN'T NO BIOLOGIST & DAMN SURE DON'T NEED TO BE ONE TO FIGURE THIS $HIT OUT!!!

SHOW ME A RANCHER THAT WAS DUMB ENOUGH TO DESTROY HIS OWN FRICKEN HERD!!!

AS FAR AS YOUR PISSCUTTIN SPIKE TAGS,THATS A BUNCH OF BULL$HIT TOO!!!

YOU BOYS HAVE BEEN BRAINWASHED BY SOMEBODY,I DON'T KNOW WHO THAT SOMEBODY IS BUT THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT TF THEY'RE DOING!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[proutdoors]

RE: JUDAS wiley!!!

Alright bessy, take a deep breath and relax a minute and THINK about what you are saying. You don't want the DWR to issue more bull tags, you don't want the DWR to issue as many cow tags, so how do you MANAGE the herd population? If 250 elk on a unit need to be killed and the bull/cow ratio is 80/100. How many bulls would YOU say should be killed and how many cows should be killed in order to keep the herd at 1000 elk?

On the spike issue, the WILDLIFE BOARD , you know the people who have FINAL say in these matters, gave an action item (ie a DIRECTIVE) to draw up a STATEWIDE SPIKE PLAN to be implemented in 2009. This is not made up, it is a matter of public record and anyone who was at the WILDLIFE BOARD meeting in December can attest to this!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: JUDAS wiley!!!

JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

YOU NEED TO CHECK IN TO A UNIT THAT WAS DESTROYED WITH THE SAME FRICKEN TACTICS YOU'RE PREACHING!!!

FUNNY HOW THE UNITS HELD MORE ELK ONCE UPON A FRICKEN TIME NOW AIN'T IT???

BUT ONE DAY THE UDWR DECIDES WE HAVE TOO MANY COWS ON THAT UNIT!!!

WTF???

TOO MANY COWS BUT NOT TOO MANY BULLS AT THE TIME!!!

WTF???

SO THEY SLAUGHTER THE COWS FOR YEARS!!!

BIG MONEY THERE!!!

THEN WHEN ALL THE COWS HAVE BEEN SHOT OUT WE DECIDE WE HAVE TOO MANY BULLS FOR THE AMOUNT OF COWS!!!

WTF???

WAKE TF UP Pro!!!

CAN YOU SEE HOW IT HAPPENED OR NOT???

ITS CALLED PISS POOR MANAGEMENT & YES BY YOUR BUDDIES RUNNING THE DWR!!!

IF YOU CAN'T COMPREHEND WHAT I JUST SAID THEN YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND ANY FRICKEN THING!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[proutdoors]

RE: JUDAS wiley!!!

Can you answer the question? You act like you got the answers, so lets here it, how many bull tags wouold you issue, and how many cow tags wouold you issue? I truly wouold like to know.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: JUDAS wiley!!!

YOUR QUESTION SUCKS!!!

YOU NEVER SAID HOW MANY ELK ARE PRESENTLY ON THE UNIT???

ITS NOT HARD TO CUT A BIG HERD DOWN ON A UNIT BY OVERHUNTING THE COWS & THEN WAKING UP A FEW YEARS LATER WONDERING WHY THE BULL TO COW RATIO IS ####ED UP!!!

WAKE TF UP Pro!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: JUDAS wiley!!!

I'M NOT GONNA SIT HERE ALL NIGHT & ARGUE WITH YOUR SILLY ASS!!!

GET YOUR NEW UNITS STARTED!!!

HUNT THEM ANY FRICKEN WAY YOU WANT TO HUNT THEM!!!

MAKE SURE & GIVE THE STICK FLIPPERS THE RUT,GAWD KNOWS WE WANT THEM HAPPY!!!

JUST SATISFY THEM ALL Pro!!!

DON'T INTERFERE WITH THE OTHER UNITS OR ME & YOU'LL HAVE TO SETTLE MATTERS OFF OF MM!!!

GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR DREAM UNITS/HUNTS!!!

OVER & OUT!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[proutdoors]

RE: JUDAS wiley!!!

Go back and re-read it. the herd population needs to maintained at 1000 elk. What is your answer?

I'll restate for you: LE unit "Land of no piss cutters" has 1000 elk on it when the herd is counted post-hunt(March) with a 80/100 bull/cow ratio, in the spring 250 calves are born. How many bulls and how many cows do YOU kill that fall to wind up with 1000 elk on the unit come next March?

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: JUDAS wiley!!!

JUDAS PRIEST!!!

YES!!!

MAINTAINED AT 1,000!!!

BUT NOT FRICKEN ONCE DID YOU MENTION WHAT THE CURRENT HERD SIZE WAS!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: JUDAS wiley!!!

THERE'D BE SEVERAL VARIABLES TO COMMING UP WITH AN EXACT ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION!!!

MY QUESTION IS TO YOU Pro!!!

HOW MAN FRICKEN COW SLAUGHTERS WERE THERE TO PUT THE HERD IN AN 80/100 RATIO???

YOU'RE PROBABLY ONE OF THESE GUYS THAT THINK WE'VE GOT BULLS DIEING OF OLD AGE BY THE DOZENS AIN'T YOU???

TELL ME YOU ARE!!!

AND I'LL TELL YOU YOU'RE FULL OF BULL$HIT!!!


THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[proutdoors]

RE: JUDAS wiley!!!

Come om bessy, don't DUCK the question. I said "MAINTAIN 1000 ELK", that means there are 1000 elk to BEGIN with. Why do you think there are 80/100 ratios? I say it is because the "anti-piss cutters" demanded it! If you won't let the DWR kill bulls, what are they supposed to do? Wake up indeed!

ANSWER THE DANG QUESTION!!! I am beginning to think you won't answer it because you don't like the answer(s). Pick in scenario(s) you want, just answer the question, then I'll answer one from you!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: JUDAS wiley!!!

THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION WOULD VARY ON RATHER YOU WANT SOME QUALITY LEFT IN THE HERD OR IF YOU'RE GONNA MANAGE THE HERD TO BE A PISSCUTTER HERD!!!

YOUR BIOLOGISTS THAT YOU'RE SO PROUD OF THINK 15 BULLS PER 100 COWS IS A GREAT RATIO!!!

DID I TELL YOU Pro???

I WAS IN AN LE UNIT AGAIN THIS YEAR & IT WAS SO BAD THE BULLS WERE BREEDING THE BULLS!!!

I SWEAR TO GOD THEY'RE TURNING GAY ON US!!!

NOW WE CAN'T HAVE THAT NOW CAN WE Pro???

WON'T BE LONG & THESE LE BULLS WON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT A COW CHIRP IS!!!

WE KILLED THE COWS TO SUCH AN EXTENT WE ####ED THE BULL TO COW RATIO UP!!!

LETS KILL ALL THE DINK BULLS NOW,WTF???

YOU'RE BAFFLING YOURSELF WITH YOUR OWN BULL$HIT Pro!!!



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[proutdoors]

RE: JUDAS wiley!!!

Bessy, you just proved my point. THANK YOU!

BTW, I asked what YOU would do. STILL waiting for YOUR answer.

Again, why do YOU think the DWR is issuing VERY few bull tags and a ton of cow tags? What incentive do they have? A cow tag goes for $45.00, a LE bull tag goes for $280.00. I hear it is all about the money, so WTH??

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[swbuckmaster]

RE: This dosent have to turn into a yelling match!

LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-08 AT 00:41AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-08 AT 00:37?AM (MST)


Bobcat either doesn't understand your question PRO or he doesn't want to. Something has to be done.

I don't care to make it a rifle or a bow argument.

I just want to see the herd managed to the absolute maxim number of elk. This equals the maximum number of bull tags we can give out.

If the particular unit maximum number of elk is 1000 than manage it at 1000. If we are at 80 bulls to 100 cows. This equates to aprox 445 bulls and 557 cows on this unit. 445/557=.80 = 80bulls to 100 cows

557 cows could have 557 or more calves in the spring half of which could be bulls and have could be cows this equates to 278.5 bulls and 278.5 cows.

The heard is now over the maximum number of elk by 557.

You have to kill 557 elk period to meet your goal of 1000 elk.

You could kill 278 bulls and 278 cows. This is what is getting bobcatbess undies in a bunch. He knows that if you give out that many bull tags he won't kill his 400? bull, especially if they are hunting with a rifle they are just two accurate and the cream of the crop so to speak will be taken out.

He also knows that you can't kill all the cows because he preaches this is what the division did to his deer heard, and what the division did to the fish lake elk unit.

Bobcat is right on both scenarios. But he doesn't offer a solution! He gets frustrated and throws his hands in the air.

Unfortunately something will be done in 2009. I am afraid it will be the state wide spike unit. We can't sell enough spike tags or cow tags in this state to maintain the herds. We have proven it already in the spike and cow units they already go undersold. If we don't as hunters manage the elk the division will take it in their own hands and slaughter them themselves. ?When a government agency takes things into their own hands we loose opportunity period.? Look at the problem bears. Why do we need an agency to shoot them when hunters are willing and ready? Selling more big bull tags and cow tags is the only way we can keep the herds at objective.

Here is where I see a fix. If you give out an ass load of archery tags you bet bulls will get killed. They will however get killed at different ages. You can't be very selective on a unit that has a lot of archery hunters because other archery hunters will screw you up. ?You still have to get close to the elk to kill one.? With other archers out calling it will defiantly shut the elk down to calling. They will also become nocturnal or unpaternable. This gives tons of opportunity to anyone that wants to pick up a bow.

Now their will be some bulls reaching the age that it takes to get 400? elk. If you give out the same amount of rifle tags and muzzle loader tags, as you do now these people will have the best chance at killing a 400? trophy elk. F?it give them the rut I don't care. They will also have the worst odds at the draw. This is how it should be! If you want the best chance at a 400? elk you will either have to become a very good archer and hunt every other year or lucky at the draw.

Maybe you could do both and have a unit that you can put in for bow and rifle tags at the same time. This way you can hunt almost every year with a bow but still be able to draw a once in a life time rifle elk tag in the rut. Everybody wins

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: This dosent have to turn into a yelling match!

LMMFAO!!!

LMMFAO!!!

sw WROTE: "YOU COULD KILL 278 BULLS & 278 COWS!!!

WTF???

YOU NEVER CHANGED ONE F###IN THING ON Pro's UNIT!!!

I'LL TELL YOU ONE THING RIGHT HERE & RIGHT F###IN NOW!!!

YOU AIN'T NEVER SEEN ME JUST THROW MY HANDS IN THE AIR!!!

YOU NEVER CHANGED ONE F###IN THING ABOUT THE HEARD & THATS WHAT Pro IS TRYING TO DO!!!

I'M NOT SAYING THE HERD IS NOT OUT OF BALANCE!!!

I'M SAYING AFTER THE DWR ISSUES SEVERAL YEARS OF COW KILLER HUNTS ITS GONNA HAPPEN!!!

THEY TRIED THE MANAGEMENT HUNTS!!!

I TOLD EVERYBODY THIS WOULD NOT WORK!!!

NOBODY LISTENS TO THE cat THOUGH!!!

THEY TRIED IT!!!

IT FAILED!!!

JUST LIKE I SAID IT WOULD!!!

THIS WILL BE REAL INTERESTING TO SEE IF Pro AGREES ON THE NUMBER OF ELK YOU SAID NEEDS TO BE KILLED???

I DISAGREE!!!

I DO AGREE HOWEVER ON ONE STATEMENT YOU MADE!!!

AND I QUOTE!!!

"HE KNOWS IF YOU GIVE OUT THAT MANY BULL TAGS THERE WON'T BE A DECENT BULL IN THAT UNIT WITHIN TWO YEARS"!!!

YUP,I'LL ADMIT TO THAT!!!

I DON'T KNOW ALL THE ANSWERS BUT I DO KNOW THIS!!!

WHEN THE BIG BULLS IN LE UNITS BECOME 300" PISSCUTTERS YOU ALL CAN KISS MY ASS!!!



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[bobcatbess]

WTF wiley???

HERES ANOTHER THING!!!

wiley CHIMES IN ONCE IN A GREAT WHILE JUST TO STIR IT UP!!!

I JUST MADE A COUPLE OF DONATIONS wiley!!!

NOW I'VE GOT TO GO GATHER MORE ALUMINUM!!!

IT AIN'T MUCH FUN AT -15 TO -24 WITH HIGHS AVERAGING 10 DEGRESS BUT I GUESS SOMEBODYS GOT TO DO IT!!!

YOU JUST SITTIN BACK WATCHIN THIS OR WTF???

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: WTF wiley???

O.K.!!!

I'M STILL LMMFAO!!!

WE LET sw MANAGE THE HERD FOR ONE YEAR!!!

HE NEVER CHANGED ONE F###IN THING WITH THIS HERD!!!

Pro IS STILL PISSED BECAUSE WE STILL HAVE TOO MANY BULLS PER COWS!!!

NOW ITS SOMEBODY ELSES TURN TO MANAGE THAT HERD!!!

I LIKE THE HELL OUT OF YA sw BUT YOU DIDN'T ACCOMPLISH WHAT Pro IS TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH!!!

DOING WHAT YOU DONE sw MIGHT BE BETTER THAN OTHER OUTCOMES & MANAGEMENT THOUGH???

THERE ARE MANY,MANY VARIABLES TO MANAGING A HERD!!!

TO MANY DIFFERENT GOALS BY TOO MANY JACK-ASSES!!!

ALUMINUMS WAITING,I GOTTA GO!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[wileywapati]

RE: WTF wiley???

Ya know cat I basically got on last night to thank Ty for putting my opinion in with others that I have a great deal of respect for.

But like a junkie to a needle I couldn't walk away without raising your blood pressure or giving my two cents. Thanks for the entertainment. I HOPE TO HELL YOU DRAW THIS YEAR!!!

I'm serious about the ISE Show. Not the freaking TAG GRAB EXPO in FEB but the old Doug Miller Show

 

[ktc]

RE: WTF wiley???

Oh..............the wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round. The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, all through the town.

Whatever it takes keep some quality boys!

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: WTF wiley???

O.K. Pro I'M BACK!!!

I THOUGHT IT ABOUT IT MOST OF THE DAY!!!

I GUESS I DON'T KNOW THE ETHICAL ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION!!!

FIRST OFF!!!

I ONLY KNOW OF ONE LE UNIT THAT HAS 1,000 ELK OR LESS & ITS ALREADY BEEN SCREWED UP WITH PISS POOR MANAGEMENT TACTICS!!!

SECOND,IF THERES ONLY 1,000 ELK LEFT IN THE UNIT YOU MENTION & 445 OF THEM ARE BULLS!!!

YOU WILL DECIMATE THAT HERD TRYING TO REACH WHAT YOU CALL A HEALTHY HERD RATIO,ADMIT IT TOUGH GUY!!!

IF YOU ISSUE LETS SAY THE 278 BULL TAGS THAT sw MENTIONS,AGAIN YOU JUST COMPLETEY DESTROYED THIS UNIT,I'D BET AT LEAST 98% OF ALL BIG BULLS WOULD DIE THE FIRST SEASON!!!

AFTER THE FIRST YEAR OF PISS POOR MANAGEMENT YOUR UNIT IS SHOT IN THE ASS & WORD TRAVELS FAST!!!

I GUESS THE SPIKES & PISSCUTTERS COULD DO THE BREEDING IF THERE WAS ANY PISSCUTTERS LEFT AFTER THAT FIRST HUNT/YEAR!!!

I PREY TO GOD THERE ISN'T ANY MORE LE UNITS SHOT DOWN TO JUST 1,000 HEAD BUT WHO THE HELL KNOWS,I'VE SEEN IT HAPPEN ONCE ALREADY,I'M SURE IT COULD HAPPEN ON OTHER UNITS IF WE LET IT!!!

SO,I'LL ADMIT IT Pro,I DO NOT KNOW THE EXACT PLAN THAT WOULD SATISFY EVERYBODY IN THIS STATE!!!

IF THERES A PISSCUTTER STANDING AFTER THE HUNTS,THERES 5,000 PISSCUTTIN FOOLS SCREAMING FOR MORE OPPORTUNITY SO THEY CAN KILL THAT BULL TOO!!!

SO SINCE I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION WILL YOU PLEASE ANSWER IT WITH AN ANSWER/PLAN THAT WILL SATISFY EVERY TARD IN THE STATE???

I LIKE THE HELL OUT OF sw BUT I DON'T THINK HIS PLAN IS YOUR ANSWER!!!

AN LE UNIT WITH ONLY 1,000 HEAD LEFT,THAT THOROUGHLY PISSES ME OFF JUST THINKING ABOUT IT!!!



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[wileywapati]

RE: WTF BESSY???

CAT what kind of elk can be killed????

You inch freaks have an orgasm every time somebody talks about killing more of your stinky and sticky's.

The DON has already told us "if ya just want to kill a bull go to Colorado" What the hell are the Biologists supposed to do?? You've already killed all the cows!! You bust a nut at the mention of killing a few bulls, tell me what is next?? Do we start with the extermination of mule deer like Trout Creek???
Do we put a bounty on squirrels and porcupines?? How unbalanced do we need to be before you and the DON let a few bulls get killed.

I can't stand by while you inch freaks turn Utah in to your own private elk farms. The only thing missing from the elk now is the orange ear tag, high fences and the 30 mullet heads with the Motorola's. Oh I forgot we already have the 30 mullett heads with Motorolas.

THE ONLY ww WONDERING HOW PRO WOULD LOOK IN A PINK SHIRT

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: WTF BESSY???

YOU'RE RIGHT ON ONE THING!!!

I THINK HE'S BEEN WEARING THE PINK SHIRT TO THE MEETINGS!!!

IT WASN'T ME & DON THAT OVER KILLED THE COWS YOU FEATHER FLIPPINN THICK HEADED STICK FLIPPER!!!

MAYBE THE BIOLOGISTS OUGHT TO WAKE TF UP & REPORT THERE ARE TOO FRICKEN MANY COWS BEING KILLED!!!

FOR YOU STICK FLICKERS THAT DON'T UNDERSTAND,IT TAKES COWS WITH GOOD GENETICS TOO,NOT JUST BULLS!!!

I'M WONDERING HOW ww IS GONNA LOOK IN A PINK SHIRT STANDING NEXT TO ANOTHER GUY WITH A PINK SHIRT???



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[wileywapati]

RE: WTF BESSY???

CAT that question will never be answered!!! I don't own a pink shirt and I wouldn't wear one even at gunpoint!!!

OK CAT Listen up it's called herd management 101!!!

The DWR hasn't been given permission to manage elk the responsible way!! They have been given permission to grow 400 inch bulls at whatever cost. This looks good to SFW MDF RMEF and the millionaires that buy conservation tags. This looks good in the record books. This looks good to the talking heads at the DWR that can say that Utah has had more 400 bulls than any other state in the last however many years.

This looks horrible to habitat, mule deer and every other interconnected part of nature that is part of the chain reaction that your inch and money elk management scheme has created. The Biologists have been telling your inch obsessed ass for years that a crash is coming. The mule deer in your neck of the woods are disapearing faster than Hillary in the election but ya won't listen.

Let me ask ya this CAT, How many mule deer do ya ever see in Yellowstone??? Your Dang right not many. Why?? Because a mule deer cant browse six feet up a bush like an elk can. You are managing for inches and money not wildlife!!!

I have never ever asked to have more cows killed!! Not Once!!
Why??? Because I can see the forest for the trees.

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: WTF BESSY???

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH FRICKEN MONEY ON MY PART wiley!!!

THE ONLY FRICKEN CRASH A COMMING IS SELF INFLICTED BY YOU OPPORTUNISTS & THE DWR!!!

JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

WAKE TF UP!!!

YOU BOYS WILL SUCK ANYTHING DOWN AS LONG AS IT WAS THE DWR OR THE PISSCUTTIN CROWD FEEDING YOU FULL OF BULL$HIT!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[Packout]

RE: WTF BESSY???

Pro, you just have to understand that some of us have been on this site for 10 years. In that time we have seen the "wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round..." and we are all almost numb to the topic. Of course each still fights the fight where it matters, just now many of us relax and don't take these posts to seriously.

BobbyBoy rides the short bus and the wheels on his bus go circle n circle, circle n circle..... and the babies on his short bus go waa waa waa, waa waa waa....... and he still can't understand that if the groups don't allow (thru lobbying; as the biologists have NO say in the final numbers) bulls to be killed then the biologists have no other way to reduce numbers except for antlerless tags.

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: WTF BESSY???

WELL ###K ME!!!

IF THE BIOLOGISTS HAVE NO SAY!!!

WTF ARE WE DO HIRING/PAYING THEM???

ANSWERS PLEASE!!!

WAKE TF UP PackOut,I THOUGHT YOU WERE SMARTER THAN THAT!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[wileywapati]

DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

Apparently I don't habla CAT!! Myself Mulepacker SS and others have been trying to tell the KITTY that for years!!!

I really think that the CAT is convinced that every hunter issued a tag will in the first few years wipe out every elk with more than 340 inches of bone on his head. In some spots that have aggressive video scouters and the Mullett brigade in tow this may happen, but the majority of the units in the state would be safe for a minimum of about 7 years.

Give these big stinky sticky sumbitches some some credit CAT!! They didn't grow all that bone on their heads over night!!

THE ONLY ww THAT IS THINKING HE BETTER HIT THE ATM FOR THE CATS APPEARANCE AT THE ISE SHOW!!! PO I WOULD HOPE THAT YOU WOULD ACCEPT THE INVITE AS WELL!!

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

WELL wiley!!!

MAYBE YOU SHOULD ANSWER Pro's QUESTION???

sw IS THE ONLY ONE THATS TRIED ANSWERING IT!!!

IF YOU GO WITH HIS PLAN 278 BULLS WILL BE TOASTED!!!

IF THERES ONLY 1,000 HEAD PLUS THE CALVES HOW MANY FRICKEN BIG BULLS DO YOU THINK WILL SURVIVE THE MULLET BRIGADE???

ANSWER PLEASE???



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[wileywapati]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

You ain't gonna like the answer CAT But here goes.
If you are already at OBJECTIVE then common sense would tell ya to kill the number of animals to get back to objective.

If ya kill cows and does you are managing population once ya start killing bulls you are managing hunters. You and the INCH FREAK CROWD get all bent out of shape when either one are done now.

If the inch freaks crowd would realize that we have blown the balance of the herds so out of whack that we can no longer control herds by killing cows and that a few bulls need to be whacked then we will be farther along. How TF do ya think we got to the bull to cow ratio we've got now?? it ain't by nature saying that every elk born for several years will be a bull, it's because the inch freak crowd has left no other alternative but to manage to harvest objective by killing the less desirable of the herd (cows)

If ya think the herds ain't there if ya think the picture is rosy when ya come in I'll drive ya a couple miles from the house
and show what happens first hand when a herd gets out of whack!!
How many spike by fives ya ever seen?? I'll show ya plenty!!!

 

[Packout]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-08 AT 08:22PM (MST)[p]BobbyBoy, ahh you are catching on. Why do we pay biologists if the Board won't follow their recommendations?? Why pay biologists to give recommended numbers for bull permits based on facts, then have lobbyists change the biologically based numbers to "socially acceptable" numbers? You answer that and you might get off the short bus.

The easy answer to Pro's question of a herd producing 250 calves, to keep the herd at the pre-calving number, is 250. Was that hard?

To look further: Figure a 10% mortality rate and there are 225 or so animals which need to be killed. Figure half of those are bull calves and half are heifers, there should be around 110 bull tags and 110 cow tags. Adjust the tags because someone will shoot bull calves, so lets give 100 bull tags and 120 cow tags. Wait there are those who wound so we cut those bull tags back to 90 total. Antlerless tags probably get cut to 100 for wounding rates also. So at 100% success rates 190 hunters get to hunt. Or so.....

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-08 AT 09:16PM (MST)[p]PackOut!!!

YOU ARE UP IN THE NIGHT!!!

I CAN'T FRICKEN BELIEVE IT!!!

Pro MUST BE LAUGHING HIS ASS OFF ALSO!!!

YOU NEVER CHANGED THE PROBLEM WITH THE HERD DIP$HIT!!!

SO YOU SHOOT 110 BULLS & 110 COWS!!!

THE FRICKEN BULL TO COW RATIO IS STILL FRICKKED UP!!!

JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

DO YOU WORK FOR THE UDWR OR WTF???

GOOD GAWD THIS IS GETTING BETTER BY THE SECOND!!!

I'M LMMFAO!!!

I'M LMMFAO!!!

JUDAS FRICKEN PRIEST!!!

YOU OPPORTUNISTS CAN'T EVEN FIX A HERD OF 1,000!!!


LMMFAO!!!


LMMFAO!!!

GOOD GAWD ALMIGHTY!!!

EDIT: ((( }> }> }> !!! )))



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

ONE MORE THING PackOut!!!

YOU BOYS PUSHED FOR THE MANAGEMENT BULL TAGS!!!

I SAID THIS $HIT WOULDN'T WORK BUT YOU ARGUED WITH ME!!!

THIS $HIT DIDN'T WORK JUST LIKE I SAID IT WOULDN'T!!!

JUST ANOTHER WAY TO SNEAK MORE BIG BULL TAGS IN!!!

QUIT PISSING & MOANING wiley!!!

IF YOU'RE OPPORTUNIST BUDDIES WOULD OF SHOT THE BULLS THEY SHOULD OF SHOT MAYBE SOME OF THEM JUNK BULLS WOULD BE ON THEIR WALLS INSTEAD OF 360"+ BULLS THAT WERE BUSTED UP!!!

WAFJ!!!

KNOW WHAT THAT STANDS FOR???



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[Packout]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-08 AT 10:11PM (MST)[p]Bobbyboy,

Complicated as it may seem in Utah's management scene, the answer is the same. To average 5 years of age on harvested bulls we must carry those 125 bull calves for 5 years (on average). Speculate 25 mortality. 5 x 100 = 500 or so bulls in the herd. So you must still shoot around 100 bulls to make room for the new crop of bulls. That is why age objectives BITE. To average high ages (average not ceiling) we must carry way too many bulls. Now figure that many units are 2 years over objective, they are leaving 200% opportunity on the range.

As for management tags, that brain-storm came from the highend sportsmen's groups, trying to protect their gold mines and not effect the high-end quality. Never was wanted by myself.

The above scenario is why Spike Hunting was so productive; remove a certain number of bulls so you don't have to carry them for 5-7 years before you can harvest them. I am not a huge fan of spike tags, but they have served a purpose and made many herds very productive. This keeps down the mature opportunity.

 

[swbuckmaster]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

I also believe the management tags were a joke! Especially since they got to keep their points!

It did however kill some bulls that needed to be taken out to meet objective but it didn't kill the bulls a true management unit was designed for. In those units you take the older age bulls with less than desirable head gear. This doesn't in my book equal broken points.

Point restrictions hunts like 3 point or better/ elk with spike by 5 don't work. Utards will screw it up every time.

The only way in my book to keep 400 inch bulls on units that are at herd objective is to have a spike hunt. This takes out the bulls that need to be taken out to keep a healthy herd at objective. Than you have to severely limit the big bull tags to give the ones left to reach the age it takes to grow those kinds of antlers.

I personally don't think one bull in your life is worth that. I would rather see a unit that produces a mega bull once in a while and gives you the opportunity to take a garage full of 300? bulls.

I hate spike hunts. There isn't a spike in the world that is worth packing out of a deep thick canyon or a cow for that matter.

I hope you get your units Pro It is the only way I can see to manage the bulls/cows in a way I agree with.



Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[ktc]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

I no longer have a dog in this fight, but I sure hope quality does not suffer for whatever reason. If there is a legit ratio problem and it needs solving, I sure hope the quality is still there. I see no problem with having monster bulls.

I hope the elk have great days ahead however this problem is handled. I know how bess feels. It is not fun having lots of points and facing quality reduction!

.....and that! is all I have to say about that!

 

[swbuckmaster]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

Bess hope you draw that tag sooner than later. If you need to add one more spotter to your mullet possey I will help locating that 400 incher for ya. Just don't ask me to wear a mullet because it will look more like a skullet and be a distraction in your photos.

Archery is a year round commitment!!

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

PackOut!!!

YOU ARE "STILL" NOT FIXING THE PROBLEM WITH THE HERD Pro MENTIONS!!!

WILL YOU PLEASE RE-READ HIS QUESTION???

2-3 TIMES IF YOU HAVE TO!!!

THE FRICKEN UNIT HE MENTIONS HAS ALREADY GOT 80 BULLS PER 100 COWS!!! (THE UDWR MIGHT OD FILLED SOMEBODY FULL OF BULL$HIT ON THEM NUMBERS???)

YOUR NUMBERS MIGHT WORK PackOut IF THE HERD YOU STARTED OUT WITH HAD 35 BULLS PER 100 COWS!!!

PAY REAL CLOSE ATTENTION TO THIS NEXT SENTANCE!!!

WHAT Pro IS SAYING IS:THERE ARE TOO FRICKEN MANY BULLS PER THE AMOUNT OF COWS ON THIS UNIT/HERD,HOW DO WE MANAGE IT???

WITH WHAT BOTH YOU PackOut & sw HAVE COME UP WITH ON HOW TO MANAGE THAT HERD,YOU HAVEN'T DONE ONE FRICKEN THING TO TRY & GET THE BULL NUMBERS DOWN A LITTLE!!!

GOOD GAWD I AIN'T NO BIOLOGIST BUT YOU BOYS NEED TO THINK ON THE QUESTION A LITTLE!!!

I DON'T HAVE AN ETHICAL ANSWER FOR Pro's QUESTION BECAUSE I HATE SLAUGHTERS!!!

JUST TELL ME WHERE THIS HERD IS BECAUSE I SURE THE HELL DON'T WANT TO HUNT IT,ESPECIALLY AFTER THE MANAGEMENT PLANS ARE MADE FOR THE HERD!!!

AND sw YOU MAKE SOME GOOD POINTS BUT IF YOU THINK THEM MANAGEMENT BULL HUNTS DONE MUCH FOR OUR LE UNITS YOU ARE VERY SECLUDED & VERY WRONG,VERY FEW JUNK BULLS WERE KILLED ON THEM TAGS JUST LIKE I SAID WOULD HAPEN!!!

AND ONE MORE THING sw,I DON'T HAVE A POSSE BUT I AIN'T NEVER HAD AN LE ELK TAG EITHER,A LITTLE HELP IS ALWAYS APPRECIATED!!!

BUT THINK ABOUT IT BOYS,Pro IS ASKING HOW YOU'D MANAGE THAT 1,000 HERD THAT IS ALREADY IN A 80/100 SITUATION!!!

AND THINK ABOUT THIS!!!

NOT EVERY TARD IN THE STATE CAN HUNT IN THE LE ELK UNITS EVERY FRICKEN YEAR,WE HAVE QUITE A FEW BULLS BUT NOT ANYWHERE NEAR THAT MANY!!!

THE BEST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN IS THAT Pro GETS HIS UNITS GOING EVEN THOUGH I DON'T AGREE WITH HIM ON TAPPING INTO 4-5 EXISTING LE UNITS,I WISH YOU BOYS WOULD JUST GET YOUR OWN NEW UNITS APPROVED & MANAGE THEM ANY DAMN WAY YOU WANT TO MANAGE THEM!!!

Pro MUST BE MAD AT ME AGAIN,HE HASN'T CHIMED IN HERE FOR A WHILE,I AIN'T MAD Pro,I DOUBT ANY OF YOU'D EVER WANT TO SEE ME MAD!!!

SO AGAIN PackOut & sw,PLEASE GO BACK & READ Pro's SCENARIO OF THE HERD/SITUATION!!!

AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED ONCE YOU HAMMER A LE ELK HERD DOWN TO 1,000 HEAD YOU'VE DESTROYED THE WHOLE SOB ANYWAY!!!

AGAIN,LET ME KNOW WHERE THIS HERD IS,I PROMISE YOU I WON'T BE HUNTING THERE!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[ktc]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

I have a question?

Why can humans, jackrabbits, fox, coyotes, squirrels, and other animals thrive in a 1:1 ratio? Why can't elk?

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

WELL ktc!!!

THESE BOYS ARE GONNA BLOW AN OVERLOAD LONG BEFORE THEY GET YOUR QUESTION ANSWERED!!!

GOOD GAWD!!!

ITS FUNNY HOW THIS EARTH EVER EVOLVED WITHOUT THE DWR & THE OPPORTUNISTIC PISSCUTTIN FOOLS AROUND!!!

THAT JUST BLOWS MY MIND!!!

IF WE DECIDED THERE WAS TOO MANY MALES IN THE HUMAN RACE I WONDER WHICH ONES WE'D SHOOT???

OH NOW I GET IT,THE ONES WITH THE BIGGEST MULLETS OF COURSE!!!

FUNNY HOW MOTHER NATURE CAN TAKE CARE OF US,ITS A GOOD GOSHDAMN THING,THESE JOKERS CAN'T EVEN MANAGE ELK,CAN YOU IMAGINE THEM TRYING TO MANAGE HUMANS???



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[ktc]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

My question is one I would like to know? I can understand a farmer having bulls and heifers at 50:1 or whatever. He is trying to maximize his profits by using the minimum bulls. Less mouths to feed means more profit if all the heifers are getting pregnant.

I think when we talk maximum opportunity vs. maximum quality is there a fine line to walk? Certainly maximum opportunity will not meet maximum quality or vice versa?

From a biological standpoint, when comparing other non-hunted or hunted animals where male and females connot be differentiated, does it matter whether 20:100 or 1:1?

Just a curiosity question?

 

[proutdoors]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

ktc and bessy, are you serious? I had a good talk with SEVERAL biologists when we were transplanting bighorns of Antelope Island to the Stansbury Mountains and Newfoundland Mountains. I asked the state biologist over the island what the buck/doe ratio is on the island, I figured this would give a pretty good idea "what nature" thinks is the 'ideal' ratio. He told me the buck/doe ratio is right around 40/100. The biggest flaw, and there are MANY, with comparing humans/rabbits/foxes to elk/deer is that the first group are mostly monogamous, meaning one male mates with one female. The second group has one male breed multiple females. In the human/rabbit/fox world you need close to a 1:1 ratio. In the deer/elk world you do NOT! bessy, you talk abouot cattle ranches right? Show me a single successful ranch that has anywhere near 1:1 ratios when trying to have a healthy/balanced herd!

Back onto my question. I pulled the 1000 elk out of the air, and for some reason that bothers bessy, so let's look at a REAL live LE unit. The San Juan: according to the 2006 numbers there are 1100 elk post season, with a 80/100 bull/cow ratio. That comes out to 450 cows, 360 bulls, and 290 calves. In 2006 there were 70 bulls killed (including CWMU's) and 207 cows (including CWMU's). That keeps the herd at the same level since there were around 290 calves born in 2006, and 271 elk harvested. Problem is 3 out of 4 elk harvested were COWS! Why? Because of the mis-informed hunters who believe that killing anymore bulls than that would 'hurt quality'. You bessy, and others like you have tied the DWR's hand's, then you ridicule them for not managing the herd's 'better'. If 290 elk needed to be killed in 2007, how many do you think were bulls? Even by including the 10 archery 'management' tags it came out to LESS than 100, which means at least 190 cows needed to be killed to maintain the herd population at it's current level. In order to help the bull/cow ratio, MORE bulls MUST be harvested than cows until the ratio is somewhere more biologically reasonable. Now, do we want the majority of the bulls killed on the top-end, the middle, or the low-end (spikes)? Just to maintain the 80/100 ratio wouold require 145 bulls to be harvested EVERY year. If you increase the number of RIFLE tags during the rut, you and ktc are correct, 'quality' will suffer. So, what does that leave us with as realistic options? Option 1: issue spike tags where the number of bulls killed is 100% random, and will remove 65-70% of that age class from the herd PERMANENTLY. Option 2: Issue more tags, but give the additional tags to those who are less effiecient, thereby being less selective, meaning MORE of the older bulls escape from year to year. If there is another scenario, I haven't heard of it.

In 2006 there were 76 LE tags and 15 CWMU tags issued on the San Juan. Of that 76 LE tags 44 were RIFLE tags, 19 were archery tags and 13 were muzzy tags. I would give 55 any-weapon tags, 55 archery tags, and 55 muzzy tags. That would compute to 150 harvested bulls, and only 140 cows would need to be harvested, the following year I would go 55 any-weapon, 65 archery, 65 muzzy, allowing for 170 bulls harvetsed, so only 120 cows would need to be harvested. That would reduce the bull/cow ratio down to 65/100 after year two. The following year you would want to harvest 150 bulls and 140 cows, and then 145 bulls/cows thereafter. On a herd of 1100, killing 145 bulls per year would more than ensure some monster bulls in the herd, it would also REDUCE the number of busted bulls, it would INCREASE the health of the herd, and it would still have a 60/100 ratio which is THREE TIMES as high as the EMP objective minimum calls for. I doubt there are very many units in Arizona/New Mexico that have bull/cow ratios anywhere near 60/100. So, the concerns/worries about quality are UNFOUNDED.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[ktc]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

Geezus pro, what is wrong with asking the question? Is all you want to do is fight and ram your knowledge down a person' throat?

 

[proutdoors]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

>My question is one I would
>like to know? I can
>understand a farmer having bulls
>and heifers at 50:1 or
>whatever. He is trying to
>maximize his profits by using
>the minimum bulls. Less mouths
>to feed means more profit
>if all the heifers are
>getting pregnant.
>
>I think when we talk maximum
>opportunity vs. maximum quality is
>there a fine line to
>walk? Certainly maximum opportunity will
>not meet maximum quality or
>vice versa?
>
>From a biological standpoint, when comparing
>other non-hunted or hunted animals
>where male and females connot
>be differentiated, does it matter
>whether 20:100 or 1:1?
>
>Just a curiosity question?

The three main problems I see with having 1:1 ratios in deer/elk herds in the wild are: 1)It LIMITS the number of calves born each year, which LIMITS the 'rsource' being 'renewed' each year. 2)If a drought/severe winter hammer the herd and reduce the overall number of elk on the unit, the recovery time is INCREASED due to the 'excess' bulls that do NOTHING to help the herd produce! 3)It limits the number of tags available to hunters w/o any TRUE value added to the herd and/or quality of bulls. I believe the quailty would be basically the same with a 50-60/100 ratio as with a 80/100 ratio, but the later would allow for more opportunity. Nowhere where 'nature' is allowed to take it's course, such as Antelope Island, are male/female ratios anywhere near 80/100, little lone 1:1.

PRO


Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[bragabit]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

BOBCAT,
YOU KEEP SPOUTING OFF THAT THE MANGEMENT HUNT DID NOT WORK. OTHER THAN NOT TAKING BONUS POINTS WHAT WAS WRONG WITH IT? I DON'T RECALL 1 ON 400 INCH BULL BEING TAKEN. I SERIOUSLY DOUBT ONE 350 CLASS BULL WAS TAKEN. SO WE KILLED 51 BULLS AND NOT ONE 350 CLASS BULL. SOUNDS LIKE WE TOOK SOME BULLS OFF THESE UNITS WITHOUT COMPRIMISING THE QUALITY. YOU HAVE OLD MATURE 5 POINTS BEING PASSED FOR YOUNGER 6 POINT BULLS IN THE EARLY RUT HUNT. THE INCH FREAKS LIKE YOURSELF DON'T WANT TO SHOOT THESE BULLS SO WHY NOT TARGET THEM, THEY ARE NOT DOING THE HERDS ANY GOOD. I KNOW I WOULD RATHER THEY KEEP SHOOTING 30 MANAGEMENT BULLS ON THE SW DESERT THAN OPEN IT TO SPIKE HUNTING.

 

[proutdoors]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

>Geezus pro, what is wrong with
>asking the question? Is all
>you want to do is
>fight and ram your knowledge
>down a person' throat?

I 'went away' for a day or two and bessy thought he ran me off, as-if. Now you are saying I am "ramming my knowledge down a person's throat". I can't win. I guess I'll just not answer the damn questions, then I would be like you and bessy! If you don't want an answer, don't ask the QUESTION! Think about it. If me using FACTS and statistics bothers you, I have to wonder why.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[ktc]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

You asked if I was serious. Yes I was. Excuse me for being a dumbass. Where is NUNYA when I need him?

 

[proutdoors]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

I didn't know there were so many 'sensitive' fellars on here. Funny how somehow it is OK to slam me, hell YOU even called into question not so long ago if I even guide for the 'Possee', remember? Yet, I am the 'bully', funny chit right there.

So, did I answer YOUR question good enough, or not?

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[Antler1]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

Pro, why do you use San Juan as an example? This thread is about your I400 Pro-posal. How about using your I400 units and give us an outline of the tag numbers you expect to issue for both bulls and cows.

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

WELL Pro!!!

I DON'T THINK I'VE EVER RUN ANYBODY OFF!!!

THATS RUS'S JOB!!!

bragabit DOESN'T KNOW WTF HE'S TALKING ABOUT,JESUS,I WISH PEOPLE LIKE HIM WOULD CHECK THE AFTER MATH BEFORE RUNNING HIS PIE-HOLE,PLEASE CLUE HIM IN Pro,EVERYBODY BELIEVES EVERYTHING YOU SAY SO PLEASE CLUE HIM IN TO WHAT HAPPENED ON THE MANAGEMENT BULL HUNTS!!!

WELL Pro,YOUR FIGURES ARE WAY,WAY BETTER & SMARTER THAN sw'S & PackOuts,NO OFFENSE BOYS,I LIKE ALL OF YOU,BUT YOUR TWO PLANS NEVER DONE ONE THING TO CHANGE THE BULL TO COW RATIO'S LIKE Pro WANTS TO CHANGE!!!

WANT ME TO CALL NUNYA Pro???

I SWEAR TO GOD THIS THREAD WILL BECOME "HOW TO COUNT TO 150 ON ONE HAND REAL QUICK"!!!

I SEE YOU'RE LEANING TOWARDS THE STICK FLIPPERS HAVING MORE TAGS THAN RIFLE HUNTERS,THATS BULL$HIT!!!

THAT KIND OF MANAGEMENT BELONGS ON YOUR OWN "NEW" UNITS!!!

I TOLD YOU Pro I DIDN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW THE ETHICAL ANSWER,BUT READ ABOVE,I KNOW ENOUGH TO KNOW THE OTHER ANSWERS BY OTHER MM BIOLOGISTS WOULD NOT SATISFY YOUR GOAL,CAN YOU SEE THAT Pro???

O.K.,I SAID I DIDN'T REALLY HAVE AN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION THAT WOULD SATISFY EVERYBODY,DID YOU HEAR ME Pro???

NOW???

I'VE ASKED SEVERAL TIMES???

WHY THE HELL,IF YOU THOUGHT THE RIFLE HUNTERS HAD THE ADVANTAGE DID YOU NOT PUT IN FOR THE "ANY WEAPON HUNT" & HUNT WITH YOUR BOW???









THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

I SWEAR TO GOD IF THE BULL$HIT CONTINUES I'M CALLING NUNYA!!!



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[ktc]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

pro,

Is not asking if you are a mullet-man not a legit question?;-)

I thought asking about ratios was legit also?

I am gonna call NUNYA. then we can get to the bottom of this. Seems he is in rare form on Sundays?

Give them hell pro. I also believe Antler1 has a legit question?

I was only asking about ratios to get your sage advice. I admit I do not know the answer. I am very very serious pro.

 

[bragabit]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

BOBCAT,
I SPEND 3 TO 4 DAYS ON THE SOUTHWEST DESERT EVERY WEEK. I SPENT 5 DAYS ON THE UNIT DURING THE MANAGEMENT HUNT. I KNOW WHAT I SEE. THE SOUTHWEST DESERT HAD MORE MANAGEMENT TAGS THAN ANY UNIT. HAVE YOU EVER BEEN ON THE SOUTHWEST DESERT? WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE THAT THIS HUNT IS A FAILURE? ARE YOU JUST TAKING PRO'S PHONY NUMBERS. THE TOOTH DATA IS NOT BACK YET TO TELL ANYONE WHAT AGE CLASS BULLS WERE KILLED. NOT USING POINTS WAS A MISTAKE, BUT THE HUNT KILLED OFF BULLS THAT WERE NOT DESERIABLE TO THE REGULAR HUNTERS. JUST BECAUSE YOU TYPE IN CAPS AND USE ALOT OF ##### SIGNS DOES NOT MAKE YOU THE EXPERT. MAYBE YOU SPEND SOME TIME ON THE SW DESERT. PAHVANT,MONROE, OR SAN JUAN BEFORE YOU RUN YOUR MOUTH ABOUT THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE HUNT.

 

[proutdoors]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

I used the San Juan as an EXAMPLE, nothing more. Bess said he didn't know of any LE units with 1000 elk on it, so I used a real LE unit. I am in NO WAY trying to 'add' San Juan into I400.

Now bessy, you said this leans way to far to the 'stick flippers'. Two things, 1)the weapon that would see the HIGHEST increase in tags would be muzzy hunters. 2)As I stated, if you increase tags and give 60% of the increase to RIFLE hunters, 'QUALITY' will be affected GREATER than if the bulk of the increased tags go to primitive weapons. As long as people say that such a high percentage of the tags 'belong' to RIFLE hunters, we are STUCK in the mess we have right now; which is too many bulls on too many units.

Fair enough ktc, sorry for being a smartass.

On the 'management' tag issue, bessy is correct, it is a JOKE. There were SEVERAL bulls that were over 360 taken with these tags. In fact, the DWR stated only THREE out of the 51 bulls were considered 'management' bulls. The other 48 were either busted antler bulls, or younger immature bulls, neither being the 'desired' targets.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

WAKE TF UP bragabit!!!

IF ONLY CULLS WERE TAKEN WITH THE "MIS-MANAGEMENT" PERMITS YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO BELIEVE YOURSELF!!!

THATS NOT THE CASE brag!!!

WAKE THE HELL UP & SEE THE FRICKEN LIGHT!!!

THERE WERE A FEW AND WHEN I SAY FEW I MEAN DAMN FEW BULLS TAKEN THAT SHOULD OF BEEN TAKEN ON THEM PERMITS/UNITS!!!

SURE THERES BULLS YOU WANT CULLED OUT OF THE HERDS YOU WATCH,PROBLEM IS,ONE YEAR AFTER THE MANAGEMENT HUNTS THEM SAME BULLS ARE STILL ALIVE!!

CAN YOU SEE THE LIGHT OR NOT???

DIDN'T SAY IT WASN'T A GOOD IDEA,I SAID A YEAR AGO IT WOUYLDN'T FRICKEN WORK & IT DIDN'T!!!

WAKE THE ##CK UP!!!

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

bragabit!!!

READ THE LAST PARAGRAPH IN POST # 151!!!

THIS DIDN'T COME OUT OF MY MOUTH!!!

EVEN THOUGH A YEAR AGO I SAID THIS $HIT WOULDN'T WORK & IT DIDN'T!!!



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[bragabit]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

BOBCAT,
THE TOOTH DATA IS NOT EVEN OUT YET! THE DWR DOESN'T EVEN KNOW THE AGE OF THE BULLS. I STILL DON'T KNOW WHERE PRO GOT HIS NUMBERS I COULD TAKE YOU TO THE LOCAL TAXIDERMIST AND SHOW YOU FIVE BULL RIGHT KNOW KILLED ON THE MANAGEMENT HUNT. ALL FIVE BULLS WERE 5 POINTS OR LESS ON ONE SIDE, AND YES NO BROKEN POINTS. THERE WAS NOTHING IN THE MANAGEMENT PROPOSAL THAT STATED ANYTHING ABOUT AGE. IT ONLY STATED THAT 5 POINTS OR LESS ON ONE SIDE. DO YOU WANT TO KILL A BULL WITH 5 POINTS OR LESS ON ONE SIDE WHEN YOU DRAW YOUR PREMIUM LE TAG? I WILL AGREE THE TIMING OF THE HUNT SUCKS. IT WOULD BE MORE EFFECTIVE IF IT WAS A MONTH EARLIER. IT SHOULD BE WHEN ALL OF THE OTHER UNITS ARE HUNTING SPIKES THE FIRST WEEK IN OCTOBER. I DON'T CONTEND THAT THERE WERE BULLS KILLED THAT WERE BROKEN AND NOT WHAT THE PLAN WANTED, BUT I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT 51 OF THE 54 WERE NOT IN THIS CATEGERY

 

[proutdoors]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

bragabit, I got my numbers from the DWR employee in charge of the check stations for the management hunts. You are correct, not all 51 were busted. As I have mentioned NUMEROUS times, some where YOUNGER bulls. That was not the 'intent' of the management hunt. Were/are younger bulls 'legal', you bet, but what is GAINED by having younger bulls killed under the pretense of a 'management' hunt? It is a joke to think that a certain genetic trait can be culled out of an elk herd on free range anyway. It has proven ineffective on high fence operations, I guarantee it is less effective on public land. The Big Game Coordinator at the time, Mike Laughlin, flat out told me he didn't care what caliber of bulls were taken, as long as MORE bulls were taken. So, why not simpliy issue more tags?

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

SHE'S ALL YOURS BOYS!!!

HASH IT OUT!!!

I'M DONE!!!

YOU KNOW MY THOUGHTS!!!

I'M SICKEN FRICKEN TIRED OF ALL THE BULL$HIT EXCUSES ALL OF YOU MAKE TO INCREASE TAGS IN LE UNITS!!!



THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[rock5150]

RE: Dumb what.

Pro

Good post it has people talking and i hope thinking. I like it!!! I have been watching this post of a week and have said nothing. However I must know.

The only thing I would like is points used on the I400. I would like the people who put in for these units to be aware of the pending change, so they can give there input. I do not hunt these units so there is not much personal impact.

I am not against mixing it up however, in the middle of the game I do not know how I feel about it.

I must call bull crap to the management hunt only killing broke bulls. I call bull crap to there only being 3 bulls killed that were "real management bulls" According to the DWR there were only 3 bulls "harvested" with a bow on the SJ. Were they already broken?
SW desert had 35 tags, should have been 50 and, the first of sept so they were not broken or hide up yet.
That solves your broken tine issue. But, make them use points.

If you would like to go to Shane Maycock's Taxidermy shop you will see 3 management bulls all "real management bulls" 5x5 or 5x6 not broken.

I do not know where the numbers have come from or by whom but, they are not correct.

Fact: there were some bulls taken that none of us thought should be killed. However, I suggest that has more to do with the hunt dates than the Management Hunt.

Rock5150

 

[bragabit]

RE: DAMN,... THANKS,.... PO

Pro,
I agree that you will never eliminate a certain genetic. But, I believe that you could control it to some degree. The management hunt was set up to kill bulls and not kill the best bulls on the unit. I think in that aspect it worked. There was nothing I ever saw that said anything about the age class they wanted taken. The DWR just wanted bulls killed. what is GAINED by killing younger bulls under the pretense of archery hunt? Like I said I would alot rather see the 30 management tags given on each unit than open spike hunting.

 

[proutdoors]

RE: Dumb what.

rock5150, I NEVER had I400 w/o points, NEVER. There was a question about using the current hybrid bonus point system or a preference point system. It looks like the majority want to use the hybrid bonus point system, I am fine with that.

As for the 'management' hunt. I'll say it AGAIN, SOME where broken, OTHERS were younger bulls that were 5X5's. The younger bulls are NOT what those who implemented the 'management' hunt had in mind. That is FACT. The desired bulls were OLDER bulls that were 'undesirable' to the LE hunters, NOT younger bulls and/or busted bulls. Why even mess with a 'management' hunt? There is in reality no way to 'enforce' it, and it is doing exactly what simply issuing MORE LE tags would accomplish.

Again, younger bulls and busted bulls are NOT the desired bulls to be harvested under the 'management' hunt!

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[rock5150]

RE: Dumb what.

Pro

I am not saying You said anything. I was just saying my opinion is use points that is all.

I am with you give the Management tags to late rifle, bow and muzz and don't even have a management hunt. I am all for this. But, how do you get the tag % changed so this can happen. I do not know?

This would help answer you opportunity Question to a great extent.

The DWR Just WANTS BULLS DEAD, THEY DO NOT CARE HOW BIG THEY ARE we do. They want a healthy herd. The management hunt was one way to do it. I do not think the best way but a way.

Rock5150

 

[Addicted]

RE: Dumb what.

Ive been hanging around here for awhile but never registered the second coming of this proposal is what got me to do so. The first version with the seperate point system and spike hunts pissed me off and I hated it and thought that there was something suspicious with it, it just didnt sit right. But now Ive read more and the suggestion of keeping it in the same point system and a possible every other year spike hunt I like it. Why not try it? The Elk in this state are on a collision course with disaster, and the DWR doesnt seem to care or refuses to admit they have to much of good thing.
Somthing needs to happen or our Elk herd as we know it will be gone.


Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave in a well preserved body, but to skid in sideways totally worn out shouting HOLY SH!T WHAT A RIDE!!!

 

[WARBIRDUM]

RE: Dumb what.

Pro,
Are you serious on not taking any bulls this year on your hunt that would score under 390?You must be nuts.JK
I dont like changes with tag numbers being increased but I will be man enough to say I dont know enough about elk management and what it takes to keep a healthy herd on units.I think it will only be fair if tags are increased that they even them out between weapons used.Maybe one year the archers get more tags the next year the rifle hunters get more tags and the next year give the extra tags to the muzzle hunters.You say the rifle hunters have higher success rates which I know they do just dont give as many to them on the year they get them would this work out to make it fair depending on how the herd is looking on these units from year to year?I am just asking please dont smart ass me its only a question not that big of deal.HA ,I think I am done hunting elk in Utah but still have my opinion on elk and would sure like others to have a chance at hunting the big inch bulls we have now.
Thanks,
BIRDUM

 

[proutdoors]

RE: Dumb what.

birdum, I am serious about 390+ or nothing, so my odds are very high that I'll come home with NOTHING. Crazy I know, but that's the price you pay to be a Utard like me.

I am not sure I get the jist of your suggestion, are you saying that in year "1" the archers are the only ones to get big gains in tags numbers, year "2" the rifle guys get the increased tags, and year "3" the muzzy guys get the increased tags? Is that correct? If so, would you have 1/3 of the units that get the archery increases in year one, 1/3 of the units that get rifle increases in year one, and 1/3 of the units that get muzzy increases in year one? It's a thought, I'll have to think on a few things and get back with you. Worthy of a kudos, at least you are looking for solutions.

P.S.
Since I have set such a crazy standard for myself, are you willing to show me a few honey-holes? I'll need all the help I can get.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[WARBIRDUM]

RE: Dumb what.

Let me see if I can get lucky and draw the archery or early any weapon expo tag first.How sweet would that be to get ol Ktc down there for one more year of abuse.HA
I would bet you know a hell of alot more honey holes than I will ever know on that unit.That place got the best of me last year thats for sure.Well I have to take my hat off to ya for going for a bull of that caliber.Thats something I dont think I could ever do those screaming bulls always get the best of me when the tag is in my hand, but it sure is easy to tell someone I am helping to pass.HA
If you see me at the expo lets chat.

 

[WyoXtec]

RE: Dumb what.

Alright, get your flame throwers out, MY 2 CENTS;

Utah does not have to re-invent the wheel on Elk management. Utah is a relatively new state in worrying about how to manage a trophy elk herd. Many states have already been there and done that, look at Arizona and New Mexico for the trophy aspect and Wyoming and Colorado for the opportunity aspect (Nevada has such a limited resource and issues so few tags that they may or may not be considered, up to you). I'm not going to split hairs with exact tag numbers (every unit is different) but the bottom line is you can issue quite a few archery tags in the rut and a few muzz and rifle tags during that September timeframe also. But in order to maintain herd objectives, opportunity AND QUALITY you have to move the rifle hunt out of the rut. It's that simple. Put the majority of the rifle tags in the middle / end of October. Hunting elk in the middle of the rut with a rifle should be very limited (I'm a rifle hunter too when I need to be as is most of my family so set the flame throwers to LOW).

Imagine if the majority of mule deer tags were issued in the November rut and they don't even bugle.

PRO's proposal is probably about as good of a compromise as can be proposed (and it is only being proposed on a handful of units, and not the top end one's). Utah cannot continue down the path it is on. The bull:cow ratios have to decrease, don't take my opinion - ask a biologist. By allowing the quality of the hunt (when a tag is finally drawn) to be dictated by the amount of spike tag hunters defeats the purpose. This is the preferred method and one that WILL be implimented by the DWR unless a better proposal is issued. If you want something different then you better speak up. I'll say it again, the PROposal isn't perfect but there is no such thing. You can't please everybody but you can sustain the quality of the elk herd by proper management.

For those that would argue that the system isn't broke, my opinion is this; move the majority of the rifle tags to latter October, offer a few during the rut and the Quality will remain. At the same time opportunity is provided with lower efficiency weapons as well as keeping a check on the bull:cow ratios. Arizona, in my opinion, is the master of opportunity and quality. Utah could easily have a similar management strategy, but much more opportunity because of the excellent habitat available in Utah.

 

[bobcatbess]

RE: Dumb what.

ONE MORE TIME!!!

IF ALL YOU STICK FLIPPERS THOUGHT THE "ANY WEAPON" PERMIT HOLDERS HAD THE BEST TIME FRAME OF HITTING THE RUT,WHY THE HELL HAVE I NEVER SEEN A STICK FLIPPER DURING AN "ANY WEAPON" HUNT???

ANSWERS PLEASE???

ITS PERFECTLY LEGAL!!!

AND I'M SURE IT MIGHT OF HAPPENED A TIME OR TWO BUT I SURELY NEVER SEEN IT HAPPEN!!!

A FEW RIFLE SHOTS MUST SURE PISS YOU STICK FLIPPIN OPPORTUNISTS OFF,THATS ALL I CAN FIGURE???

OR IS IT A COMPETITION BETWEEN LEATHAL WEAPON RANGE TYPE OF THING???

AGAIN I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST STICK FLIPPERS,I HAVE SOME GOOD FRIENDS THAT ARE GREAT HUNTERS,JUST DON'T SEE WHY THERE SHOULD BE MORE ARCHERY TAGS THAN RIFLE TAGS???

THIS IS MY NEW GUN,YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT,YOU'LL LIKE IT A HELL OF A LOT LESS WHEN IT HITS ITS DESTINATION!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

 

[bragabit]

RE: Dumb what.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-08 AT 10:07AM (MST)[p]I would like to see the wildlife board increase the archery, muzzleloader, and late rifle tags up to the number of early rifle tags. Leave the early rifle tags where they are. That would be big increase of tags without a huge impact on the top quality of bulls.

In 2007 SW DESERT had:
Archery----13
E Rifle----19
L Rifle---- 9
Muzz------- 7
total------48

If we made every hunt equal:
Achery-----19
E Rifle----19
L.Rifle----19
Muzz-------19
Total------76

Rifle hunters still get twice as many tags as the other weapons. What do yo guys think too many tags or not enough tags? 28 additional tags I would guess that maybe on average 18 to 20 more bulls killed each year.

 

[huntin100]

RE: Dumb what.

It would likly be fine on that unit. Lots of remote places.

An modified Arizona type management would be:
Archery 35-40
Muzzle 10-15
Early Rifle 10 (25% of rifle tags)
Late Rifle 40 mid-end Oct (75% of rifle tags)

This would be around 100 tags and still maintain quality. 380-400+ class bulls. And double opportunity. Lower the bull to cow ratio. A few more bulls killed. No more upper end bulls killed than present.

I think I400 is a good plan to try imo.

 

[jims]

RE: Dumb what.

If you guys REALLY want to complicate things you may want to throw cow hunters in with the mix! It seems like so much of the controversy on these posts is in regard to bulls...how about the cows? It seems like there is little to 0 talk about controlling cow numbers? Here in Colo the DOW biologists are concerned with keeping cow numbers in check. Our bull:cow ratios and bull age class are super low so we may have a different scenerio than UT.

If there is additional hunting pressure in a given unit/season due to the addition of cow hunters you can bet the additional hunting pressure will wise up those 6 to 9 year old bulls! Colo is notorious for having doe/cow seasons open during the same time as buck and bull seasons. Anyone that has hunted limited Colo deer in a unit that is open simultaneously to general elk knows the affect of hunting pressure! Can you imagine what havoc would take place during the early rifle hunt if cow hunters were in the unit at the same time as bull hunters!

In units like Dutton or SE Desert that have problems with cow harvest success late in the season I have a feeling it would be a lot easier to locate cows and harvest cows when bulls are bugling! Obviously this would not be as good a quality early hunt experience and you can bet it would take more days/harvest....but it may allow some of the older, smarter bulls to live through the season if there is more hunting pressure spooking them?

I still can't figure out why UT wants to change anything? Looking at the B&C books I sure don't see downward spiral of quality of bulls? I would only think negative changes would happen if the UDWR continues it's goal for lower age class bulls?

Obviously if UT must continue on it's coarse to provide more hunting opportunity things are definitely going to change....and not in a positive way for bull quality? From my limited knowledge and experience in UT it will be difficult for UT to improve what they currently have? If the quality of bulls is stable why mess with it?

I am still bewildered by the notion that too many bulls is a bad thing. If there are any biologists out there please fill us all in on how and why this is possible?

 

[MulePacker]

RE: BASIC BIOLOGY

Why do 1:1 ratios work?

Humans there are 2 million humans in Utah with life expectancy of 75+ years and a twenty year reproductive period.
How many elk? and what is there reproductive term?

Fox, Squirels, Rabbits multiple offspring per birth with multiple birthing periods per year. Pretty Simple compared to large ungulates.

Why do 1:1 ratios not work.
Lack of attractive age females = honery emotionally broke males, that spend too much time posturing, pi$$ing and screaming.

I may not know much but this thread indicates I do know why 1:1 ratios don't work.

ktc, anything else I can help with?

 

[ktc]

RE: BASIC BIOLOGY

Nah. Good enough for me.

 

[rock5150]

RE: BASIC BIOLOGY

Let me try to explain why herds must flux and why 1/1 ratio does not work in a management plan.
1. The biggest issues with herd numbers are habitat. There is what is called indicator species, plants. For instance on the southwest desert it would be mountain mahogany. This is a plant that grows very slow and is used for winter brows. When these kinds of species loose ground each year it is a clear indicator there is too much grazing and, the over all habitat is in decline. This could be due too, to many animals? not just elk. On the SWD wild hoarse are major contributors to this problem in some areas. The weather, habit predators and disease once were the dictators of herd numbers. Not as much so know. Aka feeding programs etc. This lets us have numbers that do not really indicate what the range can hold. I am all for this if it is done right. Side note, man (hunters) should be the top predator not some enviro bureaucratic commie tree hugging wolf kissing peace nick. If the over all herd numbers are not regulated the whole system can dump.

2. Now as to 1/1 ratios. YOU CANNOT STOCK PILE BULLS. Let me explain. You have a unit that has to be managed for 1000 elk. The higher the age objective is for all bulls killed on that unit the more inverse the relationship becomes. This happens for many reasons the biggest in my opinion is the hunter does not know how to judge how old a bull may be etc. Remember the DWR does not care how big a bull you kill, just if you killed one. Thus you get a 1/1 ratio, if this is not stopped the ratio will turn into more bulls than cows. This happens because the DWR has to keep the total numbers at 1000 so if they can only give 50 bull tags then the rest of the number of elk taken has to be cows. Once you have less cows than bulls or even equal numbers the calf production go's way down and the herd blows up if it is not stopped.

3. This is what has happened on many units. How many bulls does it take to get 50 bull elk to at least 6 years of age? VS 4 years of age? You have to calculate mortality rates at all ages, harvest rates, age of animal harvested, etc to start to figure this all out. A healthy herd is about 70/30. With approximately 300 new bulls each year with a 85% birth rate and 300 cows. Birth rates have to be calculated each year by the DWR. This is done by counts and then statistics. Giving you 600 total bulls in that given year. The older the bull is the fewer tags that can be given, due to the total number of bulls, it takes to get to the age of bull that is in that units age objective. If you only can have 1000 elk on the unit you can see where the issue is.

Rock5150

 

[NeverStopHuntin]

My two cents.

I think that the proposal is great as long as the units are treated the same as any other le unit. Same waiting period same points.

I have read a bunch of post with people crying about wiping out all the trophy bulls. If you take another look at the units that would be involved they really aren't the 400" units like everyone thinks. There are still plenty of great units in utah that will not be affected.

I think that utah has way too many people with max points and it would be nice to be able to go on a quality hunt without waiting fifteen plus years. By changing the season dates around and allowing for more archery and muzz tags the quality on these units shouldn't drop and a few more people will finally be able to enjoy a utah elk hunt.

Anyone that says rifle hunters should be the only ones getting to hunt bulls in the prime of the rut doesn't know anything about management. It just doesn't make sense.

Look at arizona. In my opinion arizona manages their elk better than any other state and they have been producing 400" bulls way longer than utah has. If you look at the numbers a large majority of their rut elk tags are archery, allowing only a few rifle hunters towards the very end of september after the archery hunts are over.

Anyone that wants to hunt the prime of the rut with a rifle can just apply for another unit that typically produces larger bulls anyways. I bet most of the people crying about this proposal have never once applied for any of these five units and should find another shoulder to cry on.

 

[scoutdog5]

Greetings:

This has been a great thread, with lots of good discussion and a minimum of name calling. A couple of points I think are relevant:

1. Utah is the only state I know that uses age of bulls as a measuring device for the health of an elk herd, as opposed to cow/calf ratios. In my view, there are multiple problems with this approach. One of the most important is that, in an LE environment such as exists in Utah, hunters don't shoot old bulls, they shoot big bulls. In a lot of cases, these are the same, but in significant numbers of cases, younger bulls can actually be larger than many older bulls. On the Hanford reservation in Washington in the 90's, a 4.5 year old bull (4th set of horns), exceeded the minimum Boone and Crockett requirement of 375. Looking at some of your top LE units, average age of harvested bulls is 7+ years, which is when most bulls enter their prime. One would expect the average bull to score in the high 300's, yet that is obviously not the case. There are potentially serious long-term consequences that will occur if the top end of the genetic pool is consistently removed from the population, leaving much of the breeding to the remaining bulls.

2. As far as I know, Oregon and Utah are the only two states that use a spike only scheme to manage elk herds on some units. In Oregon's case, it is all about selling tags and raising more money, and i would guess that is major factor in Utah as well. I will try to find time tomorrow to put together some statistics and post them, but I am confident that those statistics will show a decrease in bull/cow ratios and herd productivity over time, at least in Oregon. Although I am certainly not smart enough to understand why, I am convinced that recruiting substantial new members to an elk herd, both male and female, is critically important to maintaining the overall health of that herd. Spike tags which result in a high percentage of spikes being harvested interrupt the natural recruitment of new bulls into taht herd. Those of you are most adament about maintaining the current quality of high scoring bulls in Utah should be very concerned about a plan to initiate spike hunts on a statewide basis.

Scoutdog

 

[proutdoors]

Good post Scoutdog, good to see you are still 'kicking'. Did you apply for the LE units we talked about? If so, I'll keep track of a couple of good bulls for you.

Scoutdog ahs pointed out what I and others have been saying, if you think adding more LE mature bull tags with 'hurt quality', what do you think statewide spike hunting will do? The DWR says they estimate 60-65% of the spikes in a given unit are REMOVED from the herd each year. What do you think that will do to 'quality' a few years down the road?

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[shedcarver]

Pro,
I am new to this site but I've been following along with your proposal. Please help me understand why statewide spike will ruin the quality. I live on the Beaver elk unit where spike only has been implemented for a number of years. When they first started spike only we all thought that it would be the end of our elk herd. Anywhere from 50 to 100 spikes in the last 7 years have been taken per year. Yet we still continue to see 390 to 400 plus bulls taken every year. I don't want to hear how many bulls the Pahvant or Panguitch is feeding the Beaver, because I know for a fact that bulls are coming as well as going from unit to unit.

 

[proutdoors]

shedcarver, that is a valid question. Here's the deal, in 2006, the latest data available, there were 139 bulls killed on the Beaver, and 92 bulls killed on the Dutton. Problem is, only 38 of the bulls killed on the Beaver were mature bulls compared to ALL 92 out of 92 were mature bulls killed on the Dutton. That computes to 73% of the bulls killed on the Beaver were well under 300", and that on a herd with 400 FEWER elk on it, with a LOWER bull:cow ratio, MORE bulls were harvested. Now you are correct, there are some big bulls on the Beaver, just not very many. I have spent time on both units, and the number of 350+ bulls on the Beaver is nowhere near the number of 350+ bulls on the Dutton, and the Dutton is NOT one of the 'top-end' units. if they were to let those 101 spikes that were killed in 2006 GROW UP, how many MORE big mature bulls would be on that unit? Now tell me how the 'quality' has NOT suffered, because I just don't see it. That comes out to nearly 3 out of every 4 bulls killed on the Beaver in 2006 were spikes. Great plan, have 73% of the bulls killed be YEARLINGS! Your right, sounds like what we should do on the Pahvant, remove all those spikes, so you MUST reduce the big bull tags, which WILL lower 'quality' on the BEST trophy elk unit in the world. I am sure all those folks applying for 15+ years will be all excited for that to come to fruition.

PRO

Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.

 

[goldhunter]

It is very simple; the more bulls you kill out of a given population the more the "quality" will be hurt. It doesn't matter if they're spikes or 200 or 300. None will ever reach 350 plus. I do not see any reason to harvest those spikes. I believe it would be much better to let poeple hunt more of the branch antlered bulls. How many archers would be delighted to harvest a 330 bull?

I do think you have to keep numbers under control and I do think lowering the bull/cow ratios is important. Assuming the herds are at or over a wll thought out population objective, Utah is heading for disaster if nothing is done. Pro's ideas are great as far as I'm concerned. Mix it up with a little Arizona type management is the best solution IMHO. This will also let individuals with less than max points have a better chance of drawing.

But have no dilusions that quality will not suffer. Having said that, Arizona has proven that some pretty good quality can be maintained with good management. And they provide pretty good opportunity if your willing to rifle hunt out of the rut or pick a bow.

 

[slamdunk]

Goldhunter-
EXCELLENT reply!!










Skull Krazy
"No Bones About It"

 

[shedcarver]

Pro,

You are right I am not wanting to see spike hunts on all limited entry units. I am trying to show how we have had both opportunity and trophy hunting on the Beaver. After you kill a few elk, killing a spike or even a 300 class 6 point is not a great challenge. Although it fills the freezer. No we cannot compare the Beaver and the Dutton with the overall kill numbers. We can compare Beaver and the Pahvant or the Beaver and the Soutwest Desert where only 15 early rifle bulls are killed and no spikes are harvested. Resulting in the management hunts and the bull cow ratios completely out of whack! What I would like to see done is end all spike hunting and in place of the spike hunt have a very limited 5 point or less hunt. This will do two things it will balance out the bull cow ratios and provide a hunting opportunity for those that want to hunt more than once in their life. An added bonus is implementing this in the regular bonus point draw and for those choosing the {opportunity} 5 point or less hunt they will only have to sit out the drawing process for 2 years before being able to apply again. The hunters willing to wait out the bonus point process will have their once in a lifetime shot at a big bull. With 11,000 spike tags issued every year if we change that to 5 point or less and cut the number of permits back and spread it evenly on all units we could help balance the bull cow ratios and not affect the trophy quality that so many have waited their entire life for. There were 30,367 people that applied with one bonus point last year for the elk draws. If we don't find some way soon without affecting the the trophy quality it is going to be pointless with the rising fees to ever apply for elk in Utah.

Please don't crucify me I am just trying to throw another idea out there.