Indian Artifacts..(pic)

HunterHarry

HunterHarry

Long Time Member
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Here are some of the better Indian grinding bowls I have found over the years where I live.
I have found quite a few arrowheads and spearpoints too while hunting in eastern Oregon.
bowl25pe.jpg

bowl6qa.jpg
 
Wow, those are really something. My gradfather found some in Utah but they were not nearly that large or deep.
 
Very impressive! It looks like the one on the right in the second pic is actually worn completely through.

What a piece of history. Priceless! Do you know the name(s) of the tribes in that area?

Steve
 
WOW AGAIN HARRY, THOSE ARE UNIQUE TO SAY THE LEAST. TROPHYS IN MY BOOK. WHEN IS YOUR SHEEP HUNT, OR DO I HAVE MY WIRES CROSSED???? YD.
 
Nice finds, ever consider moving to another country? If the feds find you, you may have too! I would never post anything like this, espically on here, JMHO!, But i'm sure you found them on private property right!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-27-05 AT 08:16PM (MST)[p]Why do some people think that everyone lies?
I would NEVER post on the internet anything that was illegal!
I lived on an old cattle ranch in an area that had a lot of Indian settlements.
One winter after several weeks of heavy rainstorms, the banks of the creek behind the house eroded.
We found a lot of good stuff.
HH
 
I know a place in my home town where you could sift through the dirt near a small creek and dig up arrow heads. Seems to have been a popular place for the indians to make them.

Sadly near it got developed and people complained about the asthetics of the area so the brought in sod and "Beautified" it. It makes me sad to know whats hidden in the now unreachable ground.


-DallanC
 
Harry,

I hope you don't think that my last post even questioned weather it was or was not on PP. I should have said: Since it
was found on private property it is perfectly legal.

I apoligize for the bad grammar.

Woodruffhunter
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-05 AT 10:06AM (MST)[p]Eastern Oregon you say. The Tribe that was/is from here are the Paiutes of which I am a member.

Glad you found those on private property because we (Tribe) have prosecuted several people who have looted burials. One sick bastard kept the corpses of burials under his bed.

I find stuff all the time but I look at it and put it back where I find it. If its a good piece I will bury it to keep others from finding it and putting it up on ebay.

If you ever get the urge to donate those contact me. We are trying to get a tribal museum off the ground.
 
The way this post is going, HH is going to have to break out his "finger" pic again :).
Cool finds!!!
 
Hawk33,

While I agree that burial looting is very wrong, I do not see the point of leaving other artifacts where they lay. If a person finds say an arrowhead that is just "out there" where it was shot and left or lost which is better:
1. Looking at it and then putting it back where it was and you are the only person to ever see it or,
2. Taking it home and sharing it with someone else and having it where other people can enjoy it and maybe take an interest in the culture that made it.

Believe me I'm not trying to start anything here other than friendly discussion. I respect your culture and heritage and would not condone looting or defacing anything of significant archeological, cultural or religious value. But it seems to me that a single item out in the desert that will never be seen again is wasted if you leave it there. I realize there's a fine line between looting a site and finding one stone or arrowhead.

To me if I find a spent cartridge casing out in the hills and it's interesting to me and I stick it in my pocket and take it home it's not much different than doing the same with an arrowhead. I mean if you get right down to it, unless it's a grave or something like that it's really just litter isn't it? I know age has something to do with whether an item is an artifact or not. I have quite a number of antiques around my place. Things that were handed down and/or mostly left behind over the last century or so. Growing up around it all I tend to think something has to be fairly old to be collectible or considered an antique, but I am finding that people who are not familiar with the type of things I am think something that's maybe 40 or 50 years old is collectible and considered a historical artifact.

So where does one draw the line of when something changes from being someone's trash to being an artifact? And, yes I hate to see this kind of stuff bought and sold on ebay but there are also lots of other antiques sold on ebay or elsewhere. So where do we draw that line too?

Just some things I'd like your perspective on as a member of that culture and obviously someone who has a vested interest. Please no flames anyone.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-05 AT 04:31PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-05 AT 04:30?PM (MST)

I may not have been clear in my my original post.
I found the bowls on private property in northern California.
The arrowheads and spearheads that I have found were in eastern Oregon.
I wasn't real clear in my original post.
No, I did not loot a mound or gravesite.
Once again, a creek with steep banks had some serious erosion after a number of substantial rainstorms.
Ray Charles could have found these bowls.
Do you hunt down and prosecute every kid who has picked up a few arrowheads?
THE BOWLS ARE LEGAL.
As a matter of fact...My wife is close friends with a member of the local Indian Affairs Council he and his family have spent time at my house.
look him up.
PM me and I will give you his name and number...
HH
 
Might have to fire up the ole peace pipe and pass it around the room a coupla times before this thread is done. I get the first hit.
 
No drama happening here. Harry clarified himself and even if he didn't, a man does what he does because he is comfortable doing it.

He wanted to know what natives were in Eastern Ore and I informed him. I then passed on some info about what we are doing to combat looting.
 
NVBighorn, I couldn't agree with you more. It seems like it should be legal to pick it up, just not legal to sell it. Seems like that would cut down alot of the looting. Now in burial grounds I don't think anyone should be messing around there.
 
burial gounds is one thing, but arrowheads...don't see what is wrong with picking them up. Shouldn't have left them laying around. Tell you what. If i drop my knife..whoever finds it 100 years from now can have it.
 
To answer your questions on the collecting of artifacts go to Ozarkrelics.com.
Another interesting story to inform the uninformed is the finding of "Kennewick Man". It is a 6,000 yr old officially carbon dated skeleton found washed out on the Columbia River a few years ago.
The presently called"Native Americans" wanted it reburied in their tribal grounds, the Army Corps of Engineers hastily filled in arch site and now the scientests have won a battle in the court systems to fully examine and prove to the scientic world that it is of caucasian decent. If this happens the term "Native American" is gonna have a whole new twist and I'll be first in line to get all the benefits including a MY OWN tribal reservation. Maybe a new 21st century Homestead Act. HOO HOO think of all the possibilites?

Another thing that is amazing is most historic tribes of North America even acknowledge the "Ancient Ones".
 
Has anyone been to the museum at Fort Rock? If you are into seeing arrowheads, spear points and other Native artifacts you will enjoy the visit. They also have several old homestead buildings and goods on site as well. The native pieces were supposedly collected by a man and his wife throughout the 40s, 50s, 60s prior to it being made unlawful.

It's unlawful to pick up these artifacts in OR as is posted in our hunting regulations (pg35) and it states that it covers both public and private lands.

I believe that it should be OK to pick up an arrowhead or spear point just the same as you would a spent cartridge and use them for storytelling and sharing history but I don't make the laws. I do think that if it was lawful to pick these items up that no person should ever be allowed to profit from these items. Too much of that has been done already and it not only robs the native people but others who respect and admire the skilled craftsmanship that it took to make these items.
 
If we are going to be firing up any peace pipes, we should contact the experts and get some direction in this regard. Does anybody have a contact for Youngbuck and his buddies.
Scott/couesbitten
 
Why fire up a peacepipe ? I have the legal expertise and the case law at my fingertips. As I said before we have prosecuted a few cases where the dipsh*ts were looting burial ON federal lands. We have one case now with a School Official doing the looting and teaching others how.

We wanted him placed on leave but did it happen ? Hell No!! not in this world where our culture and traditions are as misunderstood and disregarded as we are.

I go into a cemetary and loot some diamonds and whatever else those folks were buried with and I would not see the light of day until I get out of prison.

Those are the facts.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-05 AT 11:15AM (MST)[p]Hawk33

As I have said, looting a grave is wrong. But suppose you go onto some land where a person had lived years ago, but NO ONE lives there any more, and you find that same diamond. Should you keep it?
 
If you have case law right at your fingertips, then why can't you get that school official suspended? Seems like an open and shut case if what you are telling us is true.
 
You ever have to deal with a society that is one or two generations who were raised with the mentality that the only good indian is a dead one ?

The good ole boy system in my county is alive and well. You cant teach inbred people to think of things beyond what THEY conider as sacred in this instance .. cattle, and ranching. They really do not lend themselves to think or learn about the world outside of this county.

There is no if sampson, I do not lie or come on here offering grandiose stories.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-05 AT 04:18PM (MST)[p]"The good ole boy system in my county is alive and well. You cant teach inbred people to think of things beyond what THEY conider as sacred in this instance .. cattle, and ranching. They really do not lend themselves to think or learn about the world outside of this county."


Hawk,
I grew up on a Reservation and my Grandmother was a tribal council member for years. So I understand the culture fairly well and you comments are pretty funny.

You have case law, and you blame the problem on the ole boy network. Then you call them inbred, I would think that of all people you should understand the hurt even an offhand comment like that could inflict. I bet you would be incensed if someone made a derogatory remark regarding your ancestral history or half of it anyway. That kind of hypocrisy seems to be pretty well instilled in you though.

I think the reservations are the worst thing to happen to native people. The sovereign nation argument is mute also because for good or bad the native people were and are a conquered people. If you are enrolled in a tribe and recieving things like IHS, A8 entity priority, TARO preference etc, etc. You have a pretty good deal. To see a real old boy network in action you should oberve tribal governments in action.

The guy on this thread said he found these artifacts on private land and the tribe should have no claim to them, period.

Nemont
 
Ne Mont- one case was a guy who slept with a baby corpse under his bed and the funerary items were sold on ebay. Sentence- 5 years probation no time served-(3-5 years suspended sentence) he was allowed to travel back and forth 132 miles to work. He was let off slap on the hand any intelligent person would know that.

Pretty good deal are you kidding me ? this thread wasn't about what I know or what you assume to know. So it will be left at that.

BTW- the people of this county joke about how the family trees don't branch that much-not us natives mind you but the people I referred to.

When its talked about in that context in county court meetings or meetings in general its fair game to repeat is it not ? But your not from here and do not know this first hand.

time for the thread to die IMO
 
Hawk,

I don't want to get into the middle of any pi$$ing match over the subject matter that you and Nemont and others are into. Not my argument at all. But you have not answered either of my posts directed to you. All I want is an objective answer about finding a single artifact, whether it be an arrowhead, spear point, grinding stone, bead or whatever. I know what the law says. My question is what do you think and why? Should I go to jail for picking one up? Are they better off left where they are found or in someone's possession and why do you feel that way? Again, I'm NOT talking about desecrating anyone's burial ground or anything of the kind. And I am not talking about selling the stuff on ebay.

Here's an example: When my son turned twelve I took him archery hunting for deer. He and I had a great time and his youthful exuberance was an inspiration to me. One evening he and I decided to sit by a rock and glass in hopes we would see a deer as they came out to feed. We were sitting there whispering when I looked down and there, beside my son, was a a small obsidian arrowhead. Obviously in the distant past another hunter had either shot at something there or lost the tip. To me there was a lot of symbolism in the fact that centuries apart we had chosen the same hunting spot. What should I have done? Picked it up and treasured it or given it to my son so he could treasure the momento from his first deer hunt? Or left it there never to be seen again? What would you have done? What would anyone else have done?

Please do not take any offense as I mean none.
 
NV Bighorn,
I know what I would of done--I would of picked it up. I have studied the laws for years of both Federal and State. Each state has its different rules and they change all the time for both public and private ground.
I definitely agree with the looting laws and do condone that practice trying to make a financial profit over artifacts. I consider myself an amateur archeologist with over 40 years experience and am greatly intregeed with it. In fact this summer I am going to volunteer time on an archeological dig of a buffalo kill site on public ground in SW Wyoming. And once completed it will enjoyed by EVERYONE.
Hawk33- Do you realize your tribe wasn't first ones there? The Paiute nation moved there from the Great Plains pushed off by the Sioux who moved from the woodlands of the Great Lakes Region.
The artifacts you found were they on the Paiute reservation? Why didn't you pick them up and put them in your own tribal musuem.
Here is an interesting story. Back in "81" I was falling timber on a USFS sale in Northern California and our Federal Forester was a full blooded "Native American". They were breaking in a new female forestry intern. She and I and "Stub Kelly" was his name along with the Ranger were walking thru the woods and this gal finds a perfect Elko Corner Notch Arrowhead and leans down to pick it up. The Ranger hollered leave it there! Stub looked the ranger right in the eye and said"By God, my Greatgrandfather said I could pick up all of them spent Indian Bullets I find". The Ranger just shut up and kept walking.
 
I have a similar story that went the other way. I was on a field trip once back in my college days. We were up near Cedarville, Ca looking at some range/wildlife stuff. Since that area is rich in Native American culture I was always looking at the ground and found several broken tips and chips over the course of the three day trip. There were some kids there who I don't think had ever been out of the city and they were completely intrigued by my finds. Well, one day we picked up a BLM Range guy in Cedarville and there was a fresh out of college archeologist that came along with him. We made a stop along a road and were looking at stuff when the archeo guy looks down and on the berm of the road sees a arrowhead and picks it up. Those two city kids went nuts looking at it. They had never seen anything like it. Keep in mind this was a totally disturbed graded road, not some burial ground or pristine archeo site. After the two city kids drooled over it the archeo guys says "Pretty cool, huh?" and gives it a chuck. Actually throws it off into the desert. I still remember the look on city kid #1's face. You'd a thought that guy just burned a hundred dollar bill. The guy explained that it could not be kept and then made sure no one went after it when we left. I couldn't believe it. He took a single arrowhead which was obviously out of context on the roadside and then in the name of the antiquities act throws it even further out of context and it is never to be seen again. Made no sense to me then and makes no sense now.
 
To the winner goes the spoils. We won, so we get indian artifacts. Indians don't get our artifacts.
 
NV Bighorn- I know who is intending to offend and you and some of the others who posted in this thread I know have a sincere desire to learn.

You know we have a NWR that was our winter home where tribes/bands would merge every winter and stay. IN the 80's we had massive flooding and the receding waters unearthed centuries of burials and what not. That incident had positive and negative impacts on the Tribe and neighbors.

Positive, were the excavation by qualified archy's and carbon dating of artifacts found dating back more than a millenia. This data helps us in quantifying our ties to the land in eastern oregon and puts us on solid footing when dealing with federal state and local agencies.

Negative, of course was the opportunists who came out in droves to loot. not appreciate or learn from but to profit from those artifacts. Negative

Not every person who picks up an occasional arrowhead is a looter in my opinion but those who go out in parties with the intention of looting are the scourge I loathe.
 

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