ISB Controlled Hunt Second Chance Proposal

customweld

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This is a proposal from Idaho State Bowhunters.
Just for the record, I am not in favor of the proposal.


Idaho State Bowhunters proposal on 2nd chance draw process.

With the current draw system in Idaho, the first draw has a lengthy draw application period followed by a several weeks wait for results. Once results are available, successful draw applicants have until August 1st to purchase their tags. Each application costs $6.25 per species for residents and $14.75 for non-residents.

After the August 1st deadline, all unclaimed tags go into a second drawing with a 5-day application period followed by another 7-10 day wait for results. Many sportsmen find themselves paying the application fee twice to apply for the same tag. And frustratingly, often the tag they wanted goes to another person who applied in the second draw because they didn't draw their first preferred tag.

Sportsmen who applied for once in a lifetime hunts (OIL) such as moose, sheep and goat are also eligible to apply in the second draw. Vendors often find themselves stuck with long lines on the last day to apply. Second draw odds are generally very poor due to a lesser amount of available tags and more applicants. In addition, due to the 2nd application period and the wait for results, many of the hunts have already started before a successful applicant can even purchase their draw tag. All of these issues cause a frustrating situation and a high number of complaints from Idaho sportsmen.

While we all appreciate the opportunities for controlled hunts, the second draw odds are significantly diminished. Removing the second draw and the OIL tag applicants reverts the drawing process back to the original people who wanted the hunt in the first place. Second chance drawings did not happen until around 2004.

This proposal is to change the 2nd drawing process, to streamline results, and will add time to prepare for hunts that start earlier in the year.
While doing the original draw, alternates will also be drawn. By drawing alternates, 20% of the original tags, in the first draw would put people who put in for the first draw originally, in line for the unclaimed tags. Once the tags go unclaimed, it would only take a day or two to put the alternates into the system. If the applicant has put in for a second choice hunt; if the hunt is a limited draw then they would keep the tag they drew the first round (if drawn), if they put in for an unlimited draw, then they would have the option of choosing the tag they prefer. If they pick the unlimited hunt the limited tag would go unused for that year. This would allow them to receive a tag and they would then know they have the hunt by early August.

For tags that go undersubscribed, not as many people put in for them as there is number of tags. , those tags would go on sale August 15th over the counter.

There would be no lengthy application period and no delay to verify eligibility because, eligibility would be determined in the first draw, allowing sportsmen to plan accordingly for their hunt. Alternate draw results could potentially be available within a few days rather than weeks.

Earlier results would also allow ample time for IDFG to send out postcards to sportsmen who are successful in drawing a tags an alternate. Second chance draw fees would be eliminated due to people only applying once for a tag.

As an example, within 24 hours after the Aug 1 deadline, IDFG will announce what tags have been made available to the alternates.

After the initial public notification, the tags will be uploaded to the system for the public to find out if they have been selected or not selected. If the sportsman is selected, they have the option to purchase or opt out of the tag.

If the sportsman does select the tag, they will have the ability to purchase it online or at a vender. If the sportsman does not select the tag, then the tag is considered a lost and will not be redrawn for a third time.


We Believe this would be a fair and expedited system that would benefit everyone involved.
 
Yep, not in favor at all. Eliminate the second draw all together. Pay for app and fee up front. If draw then great. If you don’t go, win for wildlife.
 
I truly feel that the fish and game should pull the 50 archery tags out of unit 44 this hunt was always a rifle hunt. There was a meeting about 5 years ago to let 10 archery hunters try 44, no one at our meeting wanted the 10 archery hunts, last year they slipped in 40 more tags.
 
As far as this proposal. It has 2 flaws: 1) Way less revenue although they could have a corresponding application fee increase on the first go-around, and 2) excludes the OIL applicants and people who drew antlered hunts the previous year, which reduces the opportunity, fun, and (see #1) revenue.
 
I have to say I'm currently not opposed to this proposal but am open to the arguments as to why many of you think this is so bad. Perhaps, I'm missing something.
 
Does anybody else find it funny that in writing their proposal they couldn’t even take the time to get their numbers correct, they state that it is currently a 5 day application period when it is in fact 11 days
 
I did "see above." Is that the best you can do for an argument against the proposal because it's a lame argument if you ask me? So far, the only valid argument against it could be #2 from Downthepipe. And that's not enough to sway me so far.
 
I think there are some good and bad.

I'm not opposed to knowing if I drew a second chance tag at least a week before the opening day. I put in for the 2nd draw in a unit for deer that opens the 15th of August, but I will not know if I drew the tag until around the 25th. Makes it hard from a planning/time off stand point.

There is a lot of revenue in the 2nd chance drawing that would go away. Look at the number of applicants in the second chance drawing for all species. If you're going to take something away or change the system revenue wise, you've got to submit something that will at least replace it. Otherwise I think it is a bit of a non-starter.
 
Here are my reasons: The proposal will eliminate a second chance for applicants of OIL hunts. I almost guarantee that every one of us who doesn't draw their OIL hunt, puts in for the second go-around. It's a small chance that you will draw, but you're still in the running. Next, 2 of the hunts that I applied for did not have anything left over. So with the new proposal, I'm out . I like being able to re-plan my season depending on what tags my friends or family drew and apply for tags that may coincide with them. I'm not hung up on lost revenue, because really at the end of the day, it won't be a huge loss.
 
I see the only benefit is to give the people that actually applied for the tag a second crack at it.
But remember how they used to do it... Wasn't it just a free for all first come first served sale of leftover tags?
Complaints from that resulted in the second draw, then followed by open sale.
Opening things up to OIL applicants i think is a generous way to allow them a shot at a deer/elk/lope tag after removing them from the initial draw when they opted for OIL... which makes the odds better for the first round of applicants. I like that.
If timing is the main issue, fight to change the draw dates. No reason things couldn't be done much earlier.
The I feel second draw is a fair way to give everybody a second chance. Everybody wants a second chance right? :)
The additional application fee is small, and if F&G makes a few extra bucks this way good for them. Now if they use it properly is another thread all together!
So, I guess I'm not strongly against the proposal, but I really don't mind the way it is.
 
I truly feel that the fish and game should pull the 50 archery tags out of unit 44 this hunt was always a rifle hunt. There was a meeting about 5 years ago to let 10 archery hunters try 44, no one at our meeting wanted the 10 archery hunts, last year they slipped in 40 more tags.

And I have one of the 50 and cannot wait till Saturday ;-)
 
Customweld has raised some valid issues and I get the OIL thing but if everybody who drew picked up their tags or if ID did it the way every other state does it, there would be no second chance draw either. I can see it both ways. I think the draw odds are slim enough in the second draw that those willing to put in for a unit in the first go around should get a crack at drawing the unit they originally wanted and applied for.
 
Back before we had a second draw or the option to pick up unclaimed tags first come-first served, I believe the unclaimed tags simply went unclaimed and were not hunted that year. The second draw system was created to give everyone who is interested in the unclaimed tags the opportunity to apply. It also creates some extra revenue for the Department.

I'm fine with the way it is. If people want to make the second draw overly complicated, the Department may just as well eliminate the program and go back to one draw with unclaimed tags not being hunted.
 
A few things I hate about this proposal.

1. It gives you worse odds of pulling a leftover tag. I will gladly pay another application fee for a bit better odds. I have attached a picture that illustrates this point. (I did steal it from someone else facebook post, but it gets the point across. #'s are from 2019 draws) If you want to put in for the same tag, go ahead! You'll have better odds than being the alternate they drew from the much higher number of original applicants! The proposed system doesn't help people who originally put in for a tag that now has leftovers other than saving them a second application fee. It would actually hurt your odds of getting one of those leftover tags.

2. It takes away the opportunity for people who normally wouldn't be able to put in for a deer/elk/ antelope draw tag (OIL applicant, successful applicants from the year before, people whose plans change). It's a cool thing that you still get to play the game, even if it is long odds.

3. Peoples plans change by August and some times you don't want to hunt the same tag you did back in April or May. The second chance draw gives you the opportunity to change things up and put in for tags that fit your schedule as it sits in August.

4. To that same point, the leftover tags become available so late that I'm sure most people will have made other plans by then. If you have plans in other states, odds are you aren't going to want the tag or have time to hunt it when you get called as an alternate, especially for nonresidents. This will lead to coveted tags going to waste, when there are plenty of people who would love to use the tag. In the current system only people who know they have time to adjust their schedules put in for the second draw and so the tags go to people who are wanting to use the tag guaranteed. Look at Utah's system and how many returned tags don't get picked up by alternates and get wasted because they can't find someone to take them in time, and that's with contacting multiple alternates for each tag. This plan proposes only contacting 1 alternate, and if they don't want it, it just goes to waste!

5. While the 2nd draw isn't a huge money maker for the Fish and Game, money is money and this would cause lost revenue from no second chance applications.

In the end this proposal creates more problems and barely solves the problem of getting the tags out sooner.

A much simpler solution would be to just move everything up by 10-20 days and get rid of the stupid paper controlled hunt drawing notifications (saving fish and game more money, instead of costing them money).

If you got drawing results out by the end of June (I can only remember 1 year out of the last 10 that they weren't out by then anyway and that was a fluke), Tags would need to be bought by the 18th or so of July. 2nd drawing goes from 20th -30th of July and results are out around the 5th of August. All those early hunters won't be getting tags after the season has already started for the most part, and the problem is solved just by changing some dates.

IMG_9137.JPG
 
Easy fix 1st tag deadline April 10th results in 2 weeks April 25th , Successful 1st draw applicants dead line to pick up drawn tags May 10th 2 WEEKS PERIOD !!! 2nd drawing for leftover tags May 15th to May 25th successful 2nd draw applicants must pick up tags before June 8th all leftover tags FCFS DONE !!!! plenty of time to plan your hunts get your tags & crap together for your hunt IF not that's on you !!
 
if i'm understanding the reasoning for the proposal its basically to have more time before hunts start if you draw in the second drawing.

everyone realizes you dont have to put in for the second drawing ? and if you do you should understand the time frame for a tag you draw may be short or hunt already started. if thats an issue for you....dont apply

seems like a solution in search of a problem
 
This is a proposal from Idaho State Bowhunters.
Just for the record, I am not in favor of the proposal.


Idaho State Bowhunters proposal on 2nd chance draw process.

With the current draw system in Idaho, the first draw has a lengthy draw application period followed by a several weeks wait for results. Once results are available, successful draw applicants have until August 1st to purchase their tags. Each application costs $6.25 per species for residents and $14.75 for non-residents.

After the August 1st deadline, all unclaimed tags go into a second drawing with a 5-day application period followed by another 7-10 day wait for results. Many sportsmen find themselves paying the application fee twice to apply for the same tag. And frustratingly, often the tag they wanted goes to another person who applied in the second draw because they didn't draw their first preferred tag.

Sportsmen who applied for once in a lifetime hunts (OIL) such as moose, sheep and goat are also eligible to apply in the second draw. Vendors often find themselves stuck with long lines on the last day to apply. Second draw odds are generally very poor due to a lesser amount of available tags and more applicants. In addition, due to the 2nd application period and the wait for results, many of the hunts have already started before a successful applicant can even purchase their draw tag. All of these issues cause a frustrating situation and a high number of complaints from Idaho sportsmen.

While we all appreciate the opportunities for controlled hunts, the second draw odds are significantly diminished. Removing the second draw and the OIL tag applicants reverts the drawing process back to the original people who wanted the hunt in the first place. Second chance drawings did not happen until around 2004.

This proposal is to change the 2nd drawing process, to streamline results, and will add time to prepare for hunts that start earlier in the year.
While doing the original draw, alternates will also be drawn. By drawing alternates, 20% of the original tags, in the first draw would put people who put in for the first draw originally, in line for the unclaimed tags. Once the tags go unclaimed, it would only take a day or two to put the alternates into the system. If the applicant has put in for a second choice hunt; if the hunt is a limited draw then they would keep the tag they drew the first round (if drawn), if they put in for an unlimited draw, then they would have the option of choosing the tag they prefer. If they pick the unlimited hunt the limited tag would go unused for that year. This would allow them to receive a tag and they would then know they have the hunt by early August.

For tags that go undersubscribed, not as many people put in for them as there is number of tags. , those tags would go on sale August 15th over the counter.

There would be no lengthy application period and no delay to verify eligibility because, eligibility would be determined in the first draw, allowing sportsmen to plan accordingly for their hunt. Alternate draw results could potentially be available within a few days rather than weeks.

Earlier results would also allow ample time for IDFG to send out postcards to sportsmen who are successful in drawing a tags an alternate. Second chance draw fees would be eliminated due to people only applying once for a tag.

As an example, within 24 hours after the Aug 1 deadline, IDFG will announce what tags have been made available to the alternates.

After the initial public notification, the tags will be uploaded to the system for the public to find out if they have been selected or not selected. If the sportsman is selected, they have the option to purchase or opt out of the tag.

If the sportsman does select the tag, they will have the ability to purchase it online or at a vender. If the sportsman does not select the tag, then the tag is considered a lost and will not be redrawn for a third time.


We Believe this would be a fair and expedited system that would benefit everyone involved.
I think any tags not purchased by the deadline should be put in with the LAP system so you could show appreciation for the landowners
 
I do have to say, for the life of me, I don't understand why IDFG can't get their chit together and do these draws earlier in the year rather than drag everything out to just before the season starts.
 
These are pretty much all of my points. I’m actually the one that made the list and am glad to see it getting passed on. Idaho State Bow hunters has seemed to try to fight this from every angle, from the draw being too late, free application fees, believing it will have better draw odds. I’m all for keeping it the same.
 
One thing that has never been discussed and ISB will not respond is how would the proposal work for those that apply as a group in the first round. I usually apply as a group of 4 for deer and elk either a group of 2-4. If we have to be drawn as alternates with our whole group that would make it impossible since there is usually only 1-2 tags left.
 
The only thing I'd like to see changed is the drawing / notification deadlines moved to earlier dates...otherwise I like the current system. Many seem to have similar thoughts it appears?
 
Everyone keeps saying they would like earlier draw dates, why would the fish and game do something so stupid, when they can keep raking in the money that you all keep sending in for that 1 tag in 52, how many guys applied for the 3 tags in 44, this is the last chance for anyone in the United States to draw any kind of tag to have somewhat of a hunting season. Idaho farm, fish and game isn’t going to give up that money so a handful of snivelers can plan their hunting season earlier.
 
How would earlier dates cheat F&G out of money? You still have to pay to apply in both draws and both super hunt raffles.
 
How would earlier dates cheat F&G out of money? You still have to pay to apply in both draws and both super hunt raffles.

The IDFG has strategically set the dates for the first draw so they can capitalize on other states draw results coming out before the application dead line. Idaho is known as a backup state for non residents and applying for hunts. They aren’t out anything to not apply every year since we don’t have a point system. This allows them to apply at will when they are notified they are unsuccessful in other states or to apply for hunts that correlate with there other hunts. So having the data set where they are they get more applicants.
 
I suspect this is the case. However, it still doesn't justify the delays in getting results out and the extended period between the first and second draws. It should NOT take over a month to perform the draw once the app period closes. It's a damn computer program. Run the frickin program and get the results out. Make people pay for the tag in 3-4 wks and run the second draw in the first couple wks of July. Is that so hard???
 
I suspect this is the case. However, it still doesn't justify the delays in getting results out and the extended period between the first and second draws. It should NOT take over a month to perform the draw once the app period closes. It's a damn computer program. Run the frickin program and get the results out. Make people pay for the tag in 3-4 wks and run the second draw in the first couple wks of July. Is that so hard???
I agree. This is my thoughts on fixing the problem. Move the app deadline up 5-10 days move the tag pick up date up about the same. Then have a short 5 day application period for the second draw. I think by doing this we could make the second results available close to August 1st.
I think ISBs main push for this has been for 3 reasons they want a free application into second draws, they BELIEVE it is better odds (you’ll have far worse odds, you’ll be competing with all the first round unsuccessful applicants to be the first of a few alternates) and they want the results for second draw to be sooner.
 
I agree. This is my thoughts on fixing the problem. Move the app deadline up 5-10 days move the tag pick up date up about the same. Then have a short 5 day application period for the second draw. I think by doing this we could make the second results available close to August 1st.
I think ISBs main push for this has been for 3 reasons they want a free application into second draws, they BELIEVE it is better odds (you’ll have far worse odds, you’ll be competing with all the first round unsuccessful applicants to be the first of a few alternates) and they want the results for second draw to be sooner.
4) like congress they must justify their existence so they are looking for new rules that most people don’t care for but they will claim to have backing
 
I truly feel that the fish and game should pull the 50 archery tags out of unit 44 this hunt was always a rifle hunt. There was a meeting about 5 years ago to let 10 archery hunters try 44, no one at our meeting wanted the 10 archery hunts, last year they slipped in 40 more tags.
Those are a top tier hunt and should definitely not only be a rifle hunt.
 
Folks,

IDFG is solely funded by hunters and fisherman. The legislature has very little say (yes I know they changed the trespassing laws) in hunting and fishing funding. Is it annoying we have to wait so long with such bad odds....yes.... But if this extra revenue helps keep politics out of IDFG I’m all for it. Ten times out of ten. Keep it as it is.
 
They are separate from the Genera Fund and are primarily funded through license sales and federal programs . But IFG’s budget is submitted and approved by the legislature. They do indeed have a lot of say.
 
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I'm a life long resident of Idaho & have bow hunted since the 80"s. Idaho State Bowhunters has no business sticking there nose in a draw issue. They should stick to archery issues, great way to divide there ranks. Personal preferences on non archery issues should be banned from Idaho State Bowhunters endorsements!!!!!!!!!
 
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I did "see above." Is that the best you can do for an argument against the proposal because it's a lame argument if you ask me? So far, the only valid argument against it could be #2 from Downthepipe. And that's not enough to sway me so far.
I agree MO, if I want a tag that I put in for all the time why should I have to battle it out with every Tom, Dick and Harry (that put in someplace else) in the second go? most of these guys dont even know the area they are putting in for.
 
I agree MO, if I want a tag that I put in for all the time why should I have to battle it out with every Tom, Dick and Harry (that put in someplace else) in the second go? most of these guys dont even know the area they are putting in for.

Even though you are battling it out with the OIL guys and guys that put in for other units it is far less people then the remaining unsuccessful applicants trying to become the first of maybe a few alternants. Simply put less people are willing to pay the extra app fees Now vs the amount of people that didn’t get drawn the first round.
It boils town to pay for bad odds or get free horrible odds.
 

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