JCR, statistics, counts, objectives and harvest reports

mightyhunter

Very Active Member
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I have been looking at Job Completion Reports put out by local Wyoming Game and Fish every year in an attempt to understand what is going on in hunt areas with deer and elk populations. Much if what is contained in those reports is often repetitious. The numbers are often used to justify changes in unit boundaries, season dates, antler restrictions etc. How Game and Fish arrive at the numbers they publish is not usually disclosed.

Objectives are published in the JCR every year. I note that with a mule deer herd they set an objective number that generally stays the same from year to year. In the Units I like to hunt mule deer the objective number in the early 90’s was 4,700. It is now around 4,000. My question is how do the Game and Fish arrive at the objective numbers they publish?

Counts are published every year. Often they are ground counts and sometimes aerial counts. I have seen the deer counts done in mid November all the way through late December. Logic would tell me mule deer counts during the rut would be the most accurate? Is that true? I also know that the accuracy of a deer count depends on the terrain. Is it heavily forested, a burn area or open country. I also think it can be difficult to determine if a deer is a female or an immature buck. It is obvious to me that you cannot count every deer. If the actual aerial count for a deer herd was say 2,000, what would be the formula or multiplier for determining the actual deer numbers in a herd? High end and low end? Any ideas. Obviously this number would be crucial in determining whether a herd is below or at objective levels.

Harvest Reports are also published every year. These have always perplexed me. Last year, I asked Game and Fish how many mule deer bucks were actually checked by Game and Fish employees in a particular general hunt area. They told me the count was 6 immature bucks. They published the actual harvest at 56 bucks. Does anyone know what formula they use to arrive at the actual harvest number? Obviously sheep and goats have to be reported. I know that the Game and Fish do not see every buck harvested. I also know they may get an idea from the voluntary harvest reports. I also know that a local Fish and Game biologist told me last year that he never looks at the voluntary harvest reports. That struck me as really odd.

Finally, in a deer unit I hunt the doe fawn ratio was 73/100 in 2021, 53/100 in 2022 and 63/100 in 2023. There never seems to be anything published concerning the cause for the discrepancy. Is it excessive predation, winter kill, poor winter range forage, or disease. I would think the why of it is crucial.

I realize that wildlife management is not an exact science. I would just like some input from others who might know the answers to my questions. Statistics are important. I am just trying to determine the basis for those published numbers. mh
 
Without mandatory harvest reporting it’s just speculation.
100%. Its not only important to see if there was harvest but such questions as the following:

what weapon you used rifle/bow/muzz
how many days hunted
how you accessed hunt area truck/hike/horses/helicopter/plane

Make it where you don't report you are not eligible for tags the following year.
 
Dave,
With all due respect, do you think MM is the place to find out the hows and whys of game management by the WY G&F? There are trusted sources in the G&F(I know you might not think so, but there are) and that's where I would start. The first comment you got on this thread is wrong. With voluntary reporting and models there is fairly decent information available, not perfect by any means, but also not just speculation.

I'm as frustrated as you are, to point I don't even want to be involved anymore. I see this Dept, under it's current leader, going to hell in a hand basket. Deer and antelope hunting going down the tubes, elk most likely soon to follow. Way too much politics and garbage, most of all the use of the Task Farce to sidestep biology and public participation. G&F employees afraid to speak out because of retribution.This draft bill SF 111 is a perfect example. Saying I'm frustrated doesn't even come close.

There's my 2 cents...
 
JM 77,
I share your frustration. I really don’t know where to turn for answers. I have folks in the area who no longer attend public meetings because they believe they are consistently lied to. I believe I have been labeled a crank by many local Game and Fish employees. Many hunters feel there voices are ignored in this part of Wyoming. I have problems with 1 or 2 persons making decisions year after year. Some of those decisions make no sense to me.

In this area, I have seen general deer seasons in migratory areas changed dramatically. Season end dates of November 10 dropped to a new close date of October 31.A few years later after the change, the close date becomes October 24th. The claim is the change is temporary but it usually isn’t.

When you go to public meetings they either have a dog and pony show with no time for questions. In the alternative, they break large groups at public meetings into small groups and send two or three employees to brow beat the public into accepting the decisions already made without public input.

I am stunned by decisions made. A three year 4 pt rule. on mule deer bucks. A warden telling me a LE elk season should never have been changed from general. I could go on and on.

I would like annual reviews by the public of employees. It could be an eye opener. mh
 
I am just as frustrated as most. Tired of certain people having the power to persuade wardens with information. Tired of game and fish saying one thing and the opposite happens. Tired of meetings with great turn outs and almost everyone in the room agrees on how to handle things. Next they do the opposite. I feel the meetings game and fish has their minds made up and hold a meeting just to put the feelings out that we care. You ask a question and they answer it by circling it to another topic.

maybe these game wardens should be elected postions and give some power to the people. Don't know if that's a good or bad idea?
 
I am just as frustrated as most. Tired of certain people having the power to persuade wardens with information. Tired of game and fish saying one thing and the opposite happens. Tired of meetings with great turn outs and almost everyone in the room agrees on how to handle things. Next they do the opposite. I feel the meetings game and fish has their minds made up and hold a meeting just to put the feelings out that we care. You ask a question and they answer it by circling it to another topic.

maybe these game wardens should be elected postions and give some power to the people. Don't know if that's a good or bad idea?
You're right about meetings Michael. The real reason they have them though, is the requirement by law that they get public comment. We all know what mostly happens there. I have seen small issues changed after intense public lobbying, but to change anything after proposals are out is like getting blood out of a turnip.
 
You're right about meetings Michael. The real reason they have them though, is the requirement by law that they get public comment. We all know what mostly happens there. I have seen small issues changed after intense public lobbying, but to change anything after proposals are out is like getting blood out of a turnip.
I concur with nfh regarding those G & F "meetings"...you know, where the G & F presenters grin and nod when the audience makes suggestions, then later the public's thoughts and ideas meant nothing (G & F already decided action(s) to take before public comment). That's been going on for quite a while and now you see little to sometimes 0 public attendance at these meetings. To top this off, you have a bumbler as director Nesvik and I'm not too sure that the dude who crowned him, Gov. Gordon isn't even inept. Speaking for NW Wyoming, it doesn't help to have kiss ass Commissioners who rubberstamp anything G & F vs listening to the public. The current one is a rubbers tamper and the previous one was about as G & F Ass kiss as they come.
 
I am just as frustrated as most. Tired of certain people having the power to persuade wardens with information. Tired of game and fish saying one thing and the opposite happens. Tired of meetings with great turn outs and almost everyone in the room agrees on how to handle things. Next they do the opposite. I feel the meetings game and fish has their minds made up and hold a meeting just to put the feelings out that we care. You ask a question and they answer it by circling it to another topic.

maybe these game wardens should be elected postions and give some power to the people. Don't know if that's a good or bad idea?
I'm from Colorado. I have been active(in the past) going to public meetings, commenting on surveys, signing on bills, basically doing all I can. I'm definitely of the opinion that there is nothing, NOTHING, I say that matters. I'm not sure how to change this, but it is very frustrating when somebody says, "you let this happen", when in all reality I honestly feel like it is totally out of control. I also feel like common sense, and actual experts in the field have no place in current management.
 
I'm from Colorado. I have been active(in the past) going to public meetings, commenting on surveys, signing on bills, basically doing all I can. I'm definitely of the opinion that there is nothing, NOTHING, I say that matters. I'm not sure how to change this, but it is very frustrating when somebody says, "you let this happen", when in all reality I honestly feel like it is totally out of control. I also feel like common sense, and actual experts in the field have no place in current management.


Few years ago we had a big turn out at a mule deer meeting. Had hunters, outfitters etc... i think even @mightyhunter was there if i recall.

But they broke us up all into groups of 6-8 people. Each group was with one or 2 wardens or biologist. Each group came up with multiple ideas. It was funny in the end to see each group had the same thoughts. examples would be no doe hunting, no forkies, season length, late season dates and amount of tags. It was really nice to be in a room where everyone cared about the local deer herds and wanted to do the right thing

Everyone felt really good after the meeting. After sometime went by and the commission meetings past we learned they did the exact opposite. After this stunt is when meeting attendance went downhill.

My last meeting was roughly last year. Started off with a big argument with a guy known to feed a ex game warden around here with a line of crap and how to manage things. We were outside and a red shirt came out and said if we are going to continue we need to leave. So we shook hands and headed in. I hit the red shirts about CWD and their lies. I was told to talk to a biologist after the meeting. Well that person bailed out so quick i didnt get a chance. So i found 2 other red shirts. I was calm and discussed CWD. Was amazing how they turned the discussion into me being a deer hater. It was like being in a school yard with 2 bullies. They're trained very well how to answer a question but basically not answering your questions with a answer of confusion
 
Seems like everyone can agree that for the most part the meetings are a dog and pony show.

In AK we have a board of governor appointed people that are guides, resident hunters etc and they call it the board of game (BOG). They try to have a representation of all user groups on the BOG. Anyone can issue a proposal(s) once a year to get something changed. They have a one week meeting where anyone can testify for or against the proposal. And then it is voted on right then and there.

It’s the best public process I’ve seen for any of the wildlife agencies.
 
Seems like everyone can agree that for the most part the meetings are a dog and pony show.

In AK we have a board of governor appointed people that are guides, resident hunters etc and they call it the board of game (BOG). They try to have a representation of all user groups on the BOG. Anyone can issue a proposal(s) once a year to get something changed. They have a one week meeting where anyone can testify for or against the proposal. And then it is voted on right then and there.

It’s the best public process I’ve seen for any of the wildlife agencies.
Could you expand on the "one week meeting"?
 
Could you expand on the "one week meeting"?
They set a week for all the proposals to be heard. And because AK is so big they have the state broke into regions. So for next year it is in south central region so that is where they will have the meeting. In theory it’s so the locals being affected by proposals can come and testify.

All the board of game is at the meeting and members of the state, and Fish and game. They go through each proposal one by one. If the proposal is on a hot topic like sheep it may take hours to hear all the testimony. The board can then ask questions for clarification. Anyone that wants to testify can and their voice is heard. Then it is voted on. If it’s passed it goes into effect the following year.

The board of game meetings are usually packed and it’s not uncommon for all the hotel rooms etc to get filled in the area. There is heavy participation because your voice can be heard. Literally one guy two years ago got a huge area closed to sheep hunting due to his proposal and his testimony.

Sample links of our process:


Here is the description of the proposals turned in and how they voted:


List of proposals, it’s a few pages down. Shows what the proposal is, current regulation and who wants it changed. Even our Fish and Game have to submit their proposals to the BOG

 
They set a week for all the proposals to be heard. And because AK is so big they have the state broke into regions. So for next year it is in south central region so that is where they will have the meeting. In theory it’s so the locals being affected by proposals can come and testify.

All the board of game is at the meeting and members of the state, and Fish and game. They go through each proposal one by one. If the proposal is on a hot topic like sheep it may take hours to hear all the testimony. The board can then ask questions for clarification. Anyone that wants to testify can and their voice is heard. Then it is voted on. If it’s passed it goes into effect the following year.

The board of game meetings are usually packed and it’s not uncommon for all the hotel rooms etc to get filled in the area. There is heavy participation because your voice can be heard. Literally one guy two years ago got a huge area closed to sheep hunting due to his proposal and his testimony.
Do you know the process for picking members of the BOG and are any groups more represented than the others? This was the major downfall of Wyo's Wildlife Task Force. Sportsman were far under-represented.
 
Do you know the process for picking members of the BOG and are any groups more represented than the others? This was the major downfall of Wyo's Wildlife Task Force. Sportsman were far under-represented.

Exactly. our dumb governor keeps selecting his buddies
 
Do you know the process for picking members of the BOG and are any groups more represented than the others? This was the major downfall of Wyo's Wildlife Task Force. Sportsman were far under-represented.
Our board is typically commercial services heavy. Currently I would say 3 out of the 7 are representing sportsman. Maybe a 4th due to his subsistence background.



AS 16.05.221. Boards of Fisheries and Game.​



(a) For purposes of the conservation and development of the fishery resources of the state, there is created the Board of Fisheries composed of seven members appointed by the governor, subject to confirmation by a majority of the members of the legislature in joint session. The governor shall appoint each member on the basis of interest in public affairs, good judgment, knowledge, and ability in the field of action of the board, and with a view to providing diversity of interest and points of view in the membership. The appointed members shall be residents of the state and shall be appointed without regard to political affiliation or geographical location of residence. The commissioner is not a member of the Board of Fisheries, but shall be ex officio secretary.




(b) For purposes of the conservation and development of the game resources of the state, there is created a Board of Game composed of seven members appointed by the governor, subject to confirmation by a majority of the members of the legislature in joint session. The governor shall appoint each member on the basis of interest in public affairs, good judgment, knowledge, and ability in the field of action of the board, and with a view to providing diversity of interest and points of view in the membership. The appointed members shall be residents of the state and shall be appointed without regard to political affiliation or geographical location of residence. The commissioner is not a member of the Board of Game, but shall be ex officio secretary.




(c) Members of the Board of Game serve staggered terms of three years and, except as provided in AS 39.05.080 (4), each member serves until a successor is appointed. An appointment to fill a vacancy in the membership of the Board of Game shall be made in the same manner as the original appointment and, except as provided in AS 39.05.080 (4), an appointment to fill a vacancy is for the balance of the unexpired term.
 
This whole situation saddens me. For several years, I thought I was alone in my total lack of faith in Game and Fish. Now, it appears that everyone has the same experience and sentiment. G&F has their dog and pony show, never actually listens or changes anything and does exactly what they want. And almost every time, the Commission passes what is recommended without hesitation.

I have never seen an entity that's so "closed" in their opinions. Wyo G&F only listens to themselves and a very few cronies. In our area, when they do something, they "hand pick" the committee and already know the outcome before they have the meeting(s). Manipulation at its finest. I have told them multiple times to their faces that they are both delusional and delusive.

The problem is exacerbated by the fact the G&F folks are stubborn and hardheaded about their beliefs. The best example is CWD. Wyoming drank the Colorado Kool-Aid and believes CO has all the answers to CWD. When in fact CO has had a series of dismal failures in their management and approaches to CWD. And all of that when there is new research published that's completely counter to their established policies and opinions. They seem to be so entrenched they are incapable of changing opinions or management strategies. Perhaps they are just unable to admit they are and have been wrong.

I'm not sure what can be done to fix this. The G&F is so entrenched in this management scheme and philosophy that it would take a "full house cleaning" of upper-level decision makers to make a meaningful difference. As has been mentioned, maybe outside input on personnel evaluations that's tied to job security and pay increases might help.

We have even discussed proposing legislation that would make the Commission seats elected on a district basis. That would certainly make for a greater public influence, but we might go from the frying pan to the fire with that approach.

I just know something significant needs to change because we are, and have been, headed in a bad direction for a long time. But Wyoming is not alone in struggling with game management and meaningful impact from public input into wildlife matters.

We are seeing more people, and more legislators take a political approach because of the poor management of our wildlife resources.

This is all tough stuff and I really wish we could change the management and public input process. Where we are headed looks to be a very bad direction.
 
This seems to go on in every state nowadays. Many are so focused on R vs NR and ignore (miss) the fact that we are all loosing.
 
IMO, what is really needed is some basic wildlife background for those appointed to the commission.

The people on it aren't there to challenge and ask questions of the department policy like they should be. None of them have even a basic understanding of the regulations even.

They rubber stamp anything the department recommends, I've been told that by several of the commissioners.

The commissioners aren't bad horrible people. They're just not savvy on what's going on and are, imo, manipulated by the GF Department.

It's not going to change and elected commissioners would only be worse for a wide variety of reasons.

The best thing might be to have some requirements before a commissioner can be appointed. Background in wildlife and resource management, holding hunting licenses for at least 10 years, proven knowledge of the regulations/statutes, etc.

The appointees are mostly just good ol' boy deals by the various governors. That's never going to land on what we need in a commission to fully vet the GF proposals.
 
As of March 15,2024 the Wyoming Game and Fish has yet to publish online the JCR for 2023. They also have not published online the harvest reports for deer and elk for 2023. The public meeting in Powell is scheduled for March 21, 2024. It is my understanding that most of the meetings in the Cody Region will involve proposals for elk and deer seasons and the changes in unit boundaries.

I am amazed that the Game and Fish will have a public meeting before providing the public with crucial information from the JCR for 2023 and the harvest reports for elk and deer in 2023. Obviously, this information is available to G&F or they would not be making proposals at public meetings. This reinforces the opinion held by many that the G&F in Wyoming doesn’t want an informed public just a compliant public. Just sayin…mh
 
Stopped at Cody Headquarters when I was in town today. Asked for the JCR, harvest reports and proposed regulations for this area. I was told the communications person would be in touch. The Powell meeting is Thursday and the Cody meeting the next week. Just sayin…mh
 
Stopped at Cody Headquarters when I was in town today. Asked for the JCR, harvest reports and proposed regulations for this area. I was told the communications person would be in touch. The Powell meeting is Thursday and the Cody meeting the next week. Just sayin…mh
I just asked them in Casper, they told me everything I wanted to know.

Other than that, it's ridiculous how long they are taking to get this info out.
 
I don't know if you guys have seen it, but the WGFD has a notice on the website that says "By March 20, updated proposals and video presentations on the proposed changes for the fall 2024 and spring 2025 hunting seasons will be posted."
 
I don't know if you guys have seen it, but the WGFD has a notice on the website that says "By March 20, updated proposals and video presentations on the proposed changes for the fall 2024 and spring 2025 hunting seasons will be posted."
So the day before the meeting in Powell.
 
I used to email the dept and get them as soon as they were dispersed internally, they have since published them on the web site the 2nd-3rd week of March for quite a while now.


2023, 3/15
2022, 3/16
2021, 3/23
2020, 3/25
2019, 3/13
2018, 3/20+-
2017, 3/15 +-

New website goes live April 10.
 
I used to email the dept and get them as soon as they were dispersed internally, they have since published them on the web site the 2nd-3rd week of March for quite a while now.


2023, 3/15
2022, 3/16
2021, 3/23
2020, 3/25
2019, 3/13
2018, 3/20+-
2017, 3/15 +-
If I'm correct, the meetings have been pushed to earlier dates over the years.
 
I believe so but I recall being told the info would be at the meetings, which didn't do me any good as a nr and doesn't help a resident to prepare before hand.
 
Went to headquarters again in Cody seeking the information I requested the previous week. No JCR will be available until late Summer. Lots of good information in those reports but it won’t be available. I received the proposed regulations for 2024. In the Cody area they have yet again altered the elk units boundaries. In 2014 they created units known as 53-1 and 53-2. Those units are now gone and have been added to other units. Most of the 54-1 late season elk hunts have been tossed. Now 54-1 is an October hunt and 54-1 late season is 54-3 now with 10 tags. This is a large reduction in those late season tags. 51-1 has an increase of 20 tags but the “increase” is largely the result of ending the tags from other units now eaten by 51-1. Good grief.

The Clarks Fork deer herd has jumped from 3,100 in 2022 to 3,800 in 2023. The low end of the objective is 4,000 with 5,000 at the high end. In 1991, pre-wolf it was 4,700 according to the G&F booklet “The Mule Deer of Wyoming”. I don’t know what the true objective number is or what it should be. We may actually be at objective numbers based on the December aerial count of 2,150.
In 2021 the fawn/doe ratio was 73/100. Huge drop in 2022 to 53/100. 2023 it was 63/100. So the population jumps 700 despite a low fawn/doe ratio in 2022. The harvest report for 106 general in 2022 was 56 and 84 in 2023. Actual documented harvest (GF checked or voluntary harvest reports) was about 15% of those numbers. No weather to push deer migration in 2022 or 2023.

I will attend a meeting. Everyone should try to gather information and judge for themselves as to what is going on. Attend the meetings and ask questions at the meetings. If you don’t raise any questions, it will just be another presentation by G&F with the sole intent being to satisfy the public meeting requirement. That means 2-3 G&F employees call all the shots. Just sayin…mh
 

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