More Auction/Raffle Permit Law in the Works

OutdoorWriter

OutdoorWriter

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LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-12 AT 05:30PM (MST)[p]The following PROPOSED bill known as HB 2072, introduced by AZ State Representative Jerry Weiers, is being pushed by the AZ Sportsmen For Wildlife Conservation. A good source told me that it was written without any consultation with either the game department or game commssion.

It will go to committee on Weds. and likely will get through it since Weiers' brother is the chairman.

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/agendas/01110202107.doc.htm

If it passes, it means there will be an ADDITIONAL 54 AUCTION tags to the 30 already allocated through another law. It will also authorize more than 200 additional "raffle" permits.

The same good source told me that this proposed law is even worse than what has been going on in Utah for the past few years with SFW.

*******

AN ACT

amending title 17, CHAPTER 3, article 2, Arizona Revised Statutes, by adding section 17-347; relating to big game tags and permits.

(TEXT OF BILL BEGINS ON NEXT PAGE)

Be it enacted by the Legislature of the State of Arizona:

Section 1. Title 17, chapter 3, article 2, Arizona Revised Statutes, is amended by adding section 17-347, to read:

START_STATUTE17-347. Big game tags; sale in bulk to qualified nonprofit organization; definitions

A. Each year the department shall reserve certain hunt tags for taking big game species as specified in subsection b of this section for a qualified organization to resell rights to the reserved tags by auction and raffle at an annual sportsmen exposition in this state under the auspices of the qualified organization and at annual banquets in this state of any of its chapters. The proceeds of resale shall be used as authorized in this section. Within thirty days after the effective date of this section, the department shall contract with the qualified organization that has made the requisite payment and advance deposit under subsection C of this section. The original contract shall specify the terms and conditions consistent with this section for sale in bulk of rights to reserved tags, for the qualified organization to exercise its authority to resell rights to the tags at the annual sportsmen exposition and county banquets and for the department to issue the reserved tags after resale.

B. Tags whose rights are sold for resale by auction or raffle and that are reserved for issue by the department after resale shall be known as governor tags, legislator tags and sportsmen tags as follows:

1. Governor tags shall be reserved for resale by auction, shall be species specific and shall be valid for that species for any hunt area with any legal weapon for three hundred sixty-five days beginning August 15 of each year. Governor tags shall be issued in the following numbers for all of the following big game species:

(a) Two tags for each of the following species: elk, mule deer, whitetail deer, bison (buffalo) and bear.

( B ) One tag for each of the following species: desert bighorn sheep, rocky mountain bighorn sheep, pronghorn (antelope), merriam's turkey, rio grande turkey and gould's turkey.

2. Legislator tags shall be reserved for resale by auction, shall be species specific and shall be valid for any open season for that species for a specific hunt area with the legal weapon allowed for that season. Legislator tags shall be issued in the following numbers for all of the following big game species and apply to all of the following hunt areas:

(a) At least ten tags, and at least one tag for each hunt area, for bull elk in hunt areas that offer all of the following three types of hunts:

(i) Early archery bull elk hunts.

(ii) Either early muzzleloader bull elk hunts or early rifle bull elk hunts.

(iii) Late bull elk hunts.

( B ) One tag for whitetail deer for each hunt area that offers late hunts.

? One tag for mule deer for each hunt area that offers a general season hunt and is located north of the Colorado river.

(d) Two tags for antelope valid for all hunt numbers as the commission specifies in any of regions 1, 2, 3 and 5 as in existence on January 1, 2012, except that both tags shall not be from the same region.

3. Sportsmen tags shall be reserved for resale by raffle and shall be valid for a specific hunt number. Sportsmen tags shall be issued in the following numbers for all of the following big game species and apply to all of the following hunt numbers:

(a) One tag for each hunt number for mule deer and one tag for each hunt number for whitetail deer.

( B ) At least twenty-one bull elk tags for early bull elk hunts as follows:

(i) At least eight tags for rifle bull elk hunts with at least one tag for each hunt number.

(ii) At least five tags for muzzleloader bull elk hunts comprising at least one tag for each bull elk hunt number.

(iii) Eight tags for archery-only bull elk hunts comprising one tag for each of the following eight hunt areas as in existence on January 1, 2012: 1, 3a/3c, 8, 9, 10, 22, 23 and 27.

? Ten tags for late bull elk hunts from the general season with not more than one tag in any hunt number as the commission specifies.

(d) Two pronghorn (antelope) tags from the general season comprising one tag for each of hunt areas 10 and 19a as in existence on January 1, 2012.

(e) Fourteen spring Merriam's turkey tags with not more than two tags for each hunt area as the commission specifies and with hunt dates occurring in April or May.

(f) Twenty-five peccary (javelina) tags comprising ten tags from the general season, ten tags from the archery season and five tags from the ham season as the commission specifies. Not more than two of the twenty-five tags shall be for the same hunt area.

(g) Fifty antlerless elk tags as the commission specifies.

(h) Except as provided by subdivision (f) of this paragraph, the department shall reserve no legislator or sportsmen tags for hunt numbers that are exclusively for C.H.A.M.P. hunts, ham hunts or juniors hunts as designated by the department or for hunts assigned by the department only for bonus points.

C. The department and the qualified organization must enter into the original contract within thirty days after the effective date of this section. The original contract shall provide that the department shall sell in bulk to the qualified organization the rights to resell all the tags specified in subsection B of this section not later than September 1 of each year beginning in 2013. The date in the original contract for the first sale in bulk shall not be later than October 1, 2012, unless the parties mutually agree on a later date. For the original contract and each contract thereafter, the governor tags sold in bulk shall be for the three hundred sixty-five day period beginning the following august 15, and the legislator and sportsmen tags sold in bulk shall be for hunt seasons as specified by the department that are in the one-year period beginning the following July 1. As a condition to negotiating the original contract between the department and the qualified organization under subsection A of this section, a qualified organization shall pay the department:

1. A nonrefundable one-time fee of ten thousand dollars for the cost to the department to implement and administer this section.

2. For the first bulk sale of rights to resell tags an advance deposit of twenty-five thousand dollars, which shall be applied as a credit toward the amount due from the qualified organization under subsection D, paragraph 2 of this section.

D. Not later than September 1 of each year beginning in 2013, the department and the qualified organization shall enter into an addendum to the original contract to conform the contract to the current fees for tags. The original contract and the annual addenda are subject to the following conditions:

1. The rights to the tags shall be sold to the qualified organization at the generally applicable resident fee for those hunt tags as specified and published for the applicable season.

2. The right to resell the rights to the tags for issuance by the department after resale vests in the qualified organization on payment in full of the total resident fees for all tags rights to which are sold to it in bulk.

E. Notwithstanding section 17-332, subsection D, the rights to tags may be resold by auction and raffle as provided by this section. The qualified organization shall only designate to the department for issuance of a tag individuals who have presented to the qualified organization a valid hunting or combination license, except a three-day class H license.

F. Under the rules of the department and as provided by the original contract between the department and qualified organization, the department shall issue the reserved tags to individuals whom the qualified organization designates as having purchased the right to a specific reserved tag by auction or raffle, subject to the following conditions:

1. Nothing in this section, including subsection D, paragraph 2 of this section, requires the department to issue a legislator or sportsmen tag if a hunt is not established for the species and hunt area for which the tag was reserved.

2. If a nonresident individual purchases the rights to a tag by auction or raffle, the department shall not issue the tag until the nonresident pays to the department the difference between the published resident fee and published nonresident fee for the tag.

3. Except for payment as required by paragraph 2 of this subsection, a nonresident who purchases a tag by auction or raffle at the annual sportsmen exposition is not subject to any otherwise applicable restriction on issuance of the tag to a nonresident.

4. An individual to whom the department issues a tag may later transfer the tag only as department allows by rule.

G. The tag is valid for the year and season of the hunt that the commission prescribes, except for governor and legislator tags as prescribed in subsection B, paragraphs 1 and 2 of this section. The qualified organization shall not re-sell to an individual by raffle the rights to more than one tag per species per year, except that for the purposes of this limitation mule deer and whitetail deer are considered separate species. Big game taken under tags issued under this section do not count toward normal bag limits for the species that the commission establishes. The department shall not in any manner restrict participation by any individual in the department's annual draws for tags based on the individual's possession of, or participation in the process to purchase rights to reserved tags under this section.

H. The qualified organization shall first apply the proceeds from the resale by auction and raffle of the rights to tags to cover all costs associated with the annual sportsmen exposition in this state and any county chapter banquets at which rights to tags are auctioned or raffled. The qualified organization shall apply the remaining proceeds from the resale by auction and raffle of the rights to tags in this state for programs to achieve any of the following purposes, including the qualified organization's costs of administration:

1. To sustain or create sportsmen education and outdoor programs for youth of this state.

2. To facilitate access for sportsmen to cross private lands onto public lands.

3. To sustain or enhance habitat in this state and to increase targeted species populations for deer, sheep, elk, pronghorn (antelope) and turkey in this state.

4. To facilitate public education and communications programs relating to sportsmen and wildlife issues.

5. To protect sportsmen heritage.

6. To conduct other programs or activities that promote concepts consistent with the north american model of wildlife conservation.

I. The legislature finds that all of the purposes in subsection h, paragraphs 1 through 6 of this section complement and enhance the department's management of wildlife in the public trust under this title to include current and future programs in the department's strategic plan and comprehensive wildlife conservation strategy. For the purposes listed in subsection h of this section, the qualified organization may use the proceeds, solely or in conjunction with other organizations, to make matching or other grants to the department and to organizations that are qualified pursuant to section 501?(3) of the internal revenue code and whose articles of incorporation or bylaws stipulate that the mission or purpose of the organization is to increase, sustain or otherwise conserve specific species of wildlife. Beginning in 2014, not later than march 31 of each year the qualified organization shall file with the department a report adopted by resolution of its board of directors that specifies for the preceding calendar year the amounts of the proceeds from the sale by auction and raffle of rights to tags at the exposition and annual banquets, of the costs associated with the exposition and annual banquets, of the monies paid for each of the six purposes listed under subsection h of this section and of the costs of administration. For the purposes of this subsection, "strategic plan and comprehensive wildlife conservation strategy" means the department's "wildlife 2012: strategic plan for the years 2007‑2012" and "arizona's comprehensive wildlife conservation strategy: 2005‑2015" and their respective successor and modified plans and strategies.

J. Unless defined in this subsection or for the purposes of this title, the terms used in this section have the meanings prescribed by the department by rule. For the purposes of this section:

1. "Early bull elk hunts" means hunts for elk with hunt dates occurring during weeks 37, 38, 39 or 40.

2. "Hunt area" means an area as defined by the commission as of january 1, 2012 or as later redefined but pertaining to the same or similar area.

3. "Hunt number" means the number assigned by commission order to any hunt area where a limited number of hunt tags is available.

4. "Late bull elk hunts" means hunts for bull elk with hunt dates occurring during weeks 47, 48 or 49.

5. "Late whitetail deer hunts" means hunts for whitetail deer with hunt dates occurring during weeks 50, 51 or 52.

6. "Qualified organization" means an organization that is qualified pursuant to section 501?(3) of the internal revenue code and that meets all of the following conditions:

(a) Its membership includes a significant cross-section of species‑specific wildlife conservation and sportsmen organizations from throughout this state.

( B ) It is not a member of, does not hold a charter from and is not a chapter of a national wildlife conservation or sportsmen organization.

? It has been in existence for at least five years.

7. "Tag" means the applicable hunt permit-tag as defined by rule. END_STATUTE

Sec. 2. Implementation; exemption from rule making

A. Within thirty days after the effective date of this act, the Arizona game and fish commission shall adopt any rules that are necessary for the department to timely enter into the original contract and make the sale in bulk of rights to tags for the hunt seasons beginning July 1, 2013 for legislator and sportsmen tags and for the hunting period beginning August 15, 2013 for governor tags.

B. Except as provided by subsection A of this section, for the purposes of this act the Arizona game and fish commission is exempt from the rule making requirements of title 41, chapter 6, Arizona Revised Statutes, for six months after the effective date of this act.

Sec. 3. Emergency

This act is an emergency measure that is necessary to preserve the public peace, health or safety and is operative immediately as provided by law.









TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
This is a bad bill.

We only have to look to our friends to the north. Utah and SFW! We cannot allow a repeat.

This bill qualifies only ONE, yes ONE group.....AZSFW!

They're after our tags boys and girls!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-12 AT 07:55PM (MST)[p]
the meeting is wednesday

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/agendas/01110202107.doc.htm


do not wait - maybe to late

contact your rep TODAY by email or call or both


http://www.azleg.gov/MemberRoster.asp


by their definition of qualifing groups - only one will qualify Sfw and they will control these tags for at least 4 yrs and they will use funds to first payoff bills for expo.banquets,and administrative organization - which they will start and control after this is passed -
no way to control spending and little if any will be left over for special wildlife projects!!

this is toal B>S> and YOU need to take action TODAY
 
I hope a lot of AZ residents are notified about this bill ASAP so they can squash it or AZ will take over from Utah with this debacle of a bill!!!
 
From the Arizona Elk Society:
We have talked with Rep. Weiers and HB 2072 has been put on hold. Jerry and others involved in this bill have called a meeting of all the Conservation Groups discuss the bill. The AES has been invited to that meeting and will attend.
I want to make it clear that both Rep. Weiers and the AZSFW have done good things for the Sportsmen of Arizona and provide much needed leadership in the political arena. Many of the battles that we face as sportsmen are decided at the polls and we need to have a voice in the political arena that represents sportsmen.
Thank you to those that took the time to speak up for something that you believe in. We feel that your voice was heard loud and clear.
Steve Clark, Arizona Elk Society
 
WE DO NOT WANT THIS BILL TO PASS!! It's good to see it's on hold right now! If someone can post an email to voice our opinions about this bill that would be greatly appreciated!
 
Get the word out to all of your friends and family and start a letter and call in campaign. It was stopped due to the tipoff from cousewhitetail and people are not happy. That little toad had the gall to support USO then flipped when the heat was turned up. He then started AZSFW and I knew it would be bad for Arizona hunters. These people need to be run out of town. Politicians.
 
SFW is having Weiers and the reps from the key hunting groups at their HQ for a meeting next week. Would be nice to find out the details and have a hundred or so hunters show up. Someone tip us off.
 
Why is this all being discussed behind closed doors?

I'd like to see where AZSFW actually asked their membership if they supported this crap or not?

Did AZSFW ask the hunters in AZ what they think of the bill?

Why wasnt the AZG&F asked?

How about the commission?

This group has taken corruption to all new levels and its more than obvious, as usual, that AZSFW doesnt really care what Arizona Hunters think.

SFW acts in the best interest of making money for themselves, period.

No accountability, no open books, nothing....just want more and more tags to peddle to the wealthy.

Business as usual at SFW Inc.
 
>>Why wasnt the AZG&F asked?

>>How about the commission?

According to my sources, neither of the above heard one word about this back-door stab until last Fri. The commission voted today 5-0 AGAINST every part of it. And...although the department cannot by law take an official stand on any legislative item, my understanding is that the prevailing "mood" is very unfavorable to the entire bill.

This is a PDF file with more from AZSFW

http://forums.coueswhitetail.com/fo...&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=39399


TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
Commission just vote 5-0 against this bill.

Would love to be able to attend this upcoming 'meeting' Will this meeting be published and open to the public? Or will this meeting be another secret, hush hush closed meeting?

This sure has left a sour taste. Total transparency is the only answer.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-12 AT 04:38PM (MST)[p]Funny how some of the strongest proponents for SFW in AZ, who were full of assurances their program would be different from Utahs, and this would never happen here, are eerily silent on the topic.... Terry
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-12 AT 05:04PM (MST)[p]Stopping this is the right move but we as sportsmen need to understand some things.

1) It takes money to improve access and hunting related issues in our state.

2)We lost on prop 109 because the antis ran misleading commercials on tv every 15 minutes on 4 stations to defeat the legislation!! WE DIDN'T HAVE MONEY TO RUN HARDLY ANY SPOTS!!

3) we need an ongoing vehicle to provide funding for sportsmen to be able to help wildlife and have monies available when needed.

4) sportsmen don't open their wallets voluntarily when needed and as such we're always behind the 8 ball when it comes to funding!!

5) in todays world it takes thousands of dollars to get things done and $10.00 donations don't buy you much when you're opposition is taking in $100,000.00 per week in many cases.

I THINK THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME GOOD INTENTIONS HERE BUT THE VEIL OF SECRECY WILL DESTROY SOME OF THE BEST INTENTIONS!

IT'S HIGH TIME SPORTSMEN WAKE UP AND UNDERSTAND WE HAVE TO CREATE SOME ONGOING WAYS TO KEEP MONEY FLOWING TO GET THINGS DONE.

AZG&f CAN'T SUPPORT MANY THINGS THAT ARE IN THEIR BEST INTERESTS BECAUSE OF THEM BEING A STATE AGENCY. FOR EXAMPLE WE COULDN'T DISPLAY SIGNS SUPPORTING PROP 109 AT BEN AVERY EVEN THOUGH THE LEGISLATION WAS IN THEIR BEST INTEREST AND JOB SECURITY AND THEY WERE CONDUCTING YOUTH FAIRS TO GET KIDS INVOLVED AT THE TIME.

WE AS SPORTSMEN CAN BE OUR OWN WORST ENEMIES BECAUSE WE ONLY SEE THE LITTLE PICTURE AND ONLY THINK ABOUT OUR OPPORTUNITY AND DON'T WANT TO TRUST ANYONE. THE ONLY THING WE'RE CREATING IS OUR OWN DEMISE BY THIS TYPE OF NARROW THINKING. THE NEXT TIME YOU WANT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT HUNTING IN AZ LOOK IN A MIRROR. THAT GUY STANDING THERE 99.99% OF THE TIME HASN'T DONE A DAMN THING OR CONTRIBUTED A SINGLE DOLLAR OR A FEW HOURS OF TIME TO PROTECT THAT WHICH HE LOVES. YOU NEED TO GET SOME NEW GUYS WITH THE MONEY INVOLVED SOMEHOW BECAUSE IT TAKES MONEY TO DEFEAT WELL FUNDED OPPOSITION.

TAGS AND OPPORTUNITY ARE THE BEST INCENTIVES WE HAVE TO CREATE THIS VEHICLE AND FULL DISCLOSURE SHOULD BE PART OF THE PROCESS. WHAT WORKS BETTER? ASKING YOU TO OPEN YOUR WALLET AND GIVING $10.00 and then asking 99 other guys to do the same or raffle one tag for $5000.00? You can't get blood out of turnips boys and unless you've been involved you don't understand that getting sportsmen to ante up is the most difficult thing you've ever tried.... the reality is you won't be able to fund buying a cheap bicycle to raffle to get more guys to open their wallet.

FOR the record I'm not a AZSFW member and didn't support this, but we have a serious need for funding to get things done in AZ.
 
Take a look at the Utah Expo. It has generated a lot of money but for whom? Show me where wildlife has gotten anything out of the Expo? This is a bad idea. Selling the best wildlife tags to the few is a bad idea. Up the fees for the tags if that's needed but don't start selling tags like Utah. Once you start down this road it almost impossible to go back.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-12 AT 08:39PM (MST)[p]>Funny how some of the strongest
>proponents for SFW in AZ,
>who were full of assurances
>their program would be different
>from Utahs, and this would
>never happen here, are eerily
>silent on the topic.... Terry
>


Yup. These SFW liars & theives will try the same thing in New Mexico. They said the same thing there.

When will people learn? Just take a gander at how SFW raped nonresident point holders & gives us powerball draw odds for everything and ask yourself if that's how you want every state to operate. They have zero upside. Anyone dumb enough to join their scam is either hopelessly gullible, had money or a raffle tag stuffed in their back pocket.

Sick people.

If I were a resident I'd be forming a campaign to get Weiers thrown out of office, regardless of where this bill goes.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-12 AT 07:29PM (MST)[p]Zim I guarantee you Mr. Weiers has done more for wildlife than you ever will in your lifetime especially concerning our elk which you love to hunt yet endlessly complain about your draw odds every damn year. AZSFW isn't affiliated with the UTAH program. I agree with you this was a bad bill but, truthfully Mr. Weiers helped get it tabled when contacted by some people affiliated with the same organizations he belongs too that actually have done a lot for hunting within the state. Mr. Wiers was actually very instrumental in getting a bill to protect hunting and fishing on the ballot that failed as I mentioned above. We,re glad you're not a resident Zim because you have a propensity for jumping to conclusions without all the facts... Mr. Weiers isn't your enemy but uninformed individuals like you, surely manage to cloud the hell out of things, sully reputations on matters you really shouldn't be opining about. If you'd have stopped with the bad bill diatribe I'd agreed with you 100% but lets not damage a guy that manages to protect hunting in our legislature in the process we don't have that many hunting advocates in our legislature.
 
Boskee - According to the F&G meeting today, the bill was submitted Friday to be discussed yesterday or today by his brother's committee.

In additon the bill contains a provision (pg 5, sec 2) specifically exempting this bill from the public ruke making process and in section 3 says implementation is an "emergency...necessary to preserve the public peace, health or safety". Really?

Perhaps he only introduced a bill that someone else wrote and perhaps the timeing was a coincidence, as was the committee it went to...

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck - it might just be a duck.

I like the gentleman who said the bill needs a stake driven into its heart and laid to rest.
 
No we don't need to sell tags for money. No we don't need SFW in Arizona. No Weiers is not the stand up guy you say if he would sneak this bill through on emergency measures. No the meeting at SFW is not open to the public. No, we don't need Don Peay the USO fan messing with our Game and Fish. I do volunteer and we have done just fine so far. Leave us the hell alone.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-12 AT 08:51PM (MST)[p]Boskee, You have absolutely no clue what I've done for the conservation organizations I have served on and what we have accomplished without raping anyone. All volunteer. So please do not claim to.

We had great success getting things done without the necessity of jamming things down people's throats with "emergency......necessary to preserve the public peace, health or safety".

What a freakin joke.
 
I just received the inaugural free issue of Elk Hunter Magazine. Knowing that the staff of this magazine supports objectives that will ultimately destroy public hunting, I don't think I'll subscribe.

PETA can legislate our hunting rights away or SFW can legislate it to only a well-heeled few and reap the proceeds, in either case the average hunter looses.

The so called hunting conservation organizations have been changing these last few years from organizations that raise money to benefit wildlife to adopting the SFW model of using wildlife to raise money and pushing laws that protect their income streams.
 
Many years ago, on Bowsite, I made a plea for AZ sportsmen and women to try and stop AZ SFW. I believe it was Chris Denham, but I might be wrong, who said at the time that AZ SFW would not be anything like Utah SFW. I can go back through my PM's but it doesn't really matter. Whether it was Chris or not does not matter...What does matter are the facts. SFW Utah is a political machine that through lobbying, in large part, now runs the show is Utah. Conservation tags are through the roof, expo tags were taken from the public with no accounting or requirement that money be given back to wildlife. The arguments Utah SFW has used is the small number of tags will not hurt your chances at drawing. There is no other way. They claim that the average Joe is the main beneficiary of SFW actions. The average Joe is not willing to fork over an extra $10 so they need to sell tags to fund habitat. Most people on MM have seen the back-and-forth.

Now we are looking at AZ SFW, who stated they would be nothing like Utah SFW. They have used lobbying to try to get people appointed to positions. They are asking for expo tags, conservation tags (or whatever name you want to use). They tried to push the expo tags through as:

Sec. 3. Emergency

"This act is an emergency measure that is necessary to preserve the public peace, health or safety and is operative immediately as provided by law."

It looks and smells like a back-room deal to benefit a single organization. I could be wrong, but it sure looks that way.

AZ SFW can claim all they want that they are not Utah SFW, but it appears to me that they are doing the same things. Same name, same tactics. By rough calculations the Utah expo generates about $1,000,000 profit each year. Not sure because the data is not being relased. That is a lot of money and to claim that the people in these conservation organizations don't make serious money is a joke at best, and/or an outright lie.

I am a non-resident in AZ. My guess, this will eventually get pushed through in some form or another and the majority of the tags will be taken from the non-resident pool. It will be sold to the residents of AZ as a second chance at the draw. A way to get more tags to the AZ residents, etc. All of these thing were said in Utah. I fought it then and hope the AZ residents fight it now. In the end a few very rich people will soon be able to buy way more tags in AZ and the poor suckers who live all around AZ will be forced to drive to Phoenix to apply for the tags. Again this is a guess but I can only go by what SFW has done in the past. I am sure some will say I am wrong. I am even willing to bet that it will be the same people who told me AZ SFW is nothing like Utah SFW and that they would NEVER ask for tags.
 
Glen the bill was tabled at the request of Mr Weiers and yes it's a poorly concieved bill. HOW MANY OTHERS MEMBERS OF OUR LEGISLATURE HAVE INTRODUCED BILLS THAT AN ENTITY WANTS CONSIDERED? WELL OVER 50% of all legislation is the idea of individuals outside congress that's why the lobby is so successful (which you know).

WHO'S GOING TO PAY FOR PUBLIC ACCESS TO HUNTING LANDS? WHAT RESOURCE DO YOU PROPOSE WE USE TO GENERATE THE KIND OF CAPITAL WE NEED TO DO SOME OF THESE THINGS? OUR FISH AND GAME DEPARTMENT IS STRAPPED AS IT IS AND RELYING ON SPORTSMEN TO FUND THINGS JUST ISN'T GOING TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. WONDER WHY GUIDES ARE GETTING ACCESS TO MANY PARCELS WHEN THE PUBLIC CAN'T? SELLING TAGS FOR MONEY MAY BE ONE OF THE ONLY TANGIBLES WE HAVE TO KEEP LANDS OPEN W/O LANDOWNER TAGS. GLEN WE HAVE TO THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX AND FIND SOME VEHICLE TO BE ABLE TO FUND SOME OF THESE THINGS. Think about this we buy 200 antelope with some of the money and pay a few ranchers to grow them and control predators and we relocate the inital group to many other locations to establish core herds for future hunting. It takes money to do these types of things yet with money it can be done very easily. We aren't doing it now because there's no funding!

Look I didn't support this bill and clearly voiced my opposition, I would want full disclosure on any bill like this but I'm smart enough to understand that we have to find some vehicle to help. USO isn't the only guide outfit out there buying up access and windmills are encroaching on thousands of huntable acres. How many permits will be lost to access? There has to be a viable alternative and the average guy like always will pay the price. Times are changing and we have to understand that if the average guy can't compete in some manner he loses. I don't belong to AZSFW but I understand how utilization of the resource currently may be the one of the best ways to generate the amounts of capital necessary to fund these types of issues. Doing nothing isn't going to keep the gates unlocked when guides are offering $$$-$$$$ per hunter. You're a smart guy Glen but we have to think outside the box on this one because they're ain't no $$ in the box. CA
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-12 AT 10:32PM (MST)[p]>I just received the inaugural free
>issue of Elk Hunter Magazine.
> Knowing that the staff
>of this magazine supports objectives
>that will ultimately destroy public
>hunting, I don't think I'll
>subscribe.
>
>PETA can legislate our hunting rights
>away or SFW can legislate
>it to only a well-heeled
>few and reap the proceeds,
>in either case the average
>hunter looses.
>
>The so called hunting conservation organizations
>have been changing these last
>few years from organizations that
>raise money to benefit wildlife
>to adopting the SFW model
>of using wildlife to raise
>money and pushing laws that
>protect their income streams.

After contact with the Magazine, they do not support this bill.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-12 AT 09:58PM (MST)[p]

ZIM you don't shoot the guy that has passed more positive legislation to help the department and hunters than any other member in our legislature. But since you're not too well informed on this guy you instead choose to trash him on a public forum. The congressman HIMSELF tabled the bill after speaking with sportsmen and heads of conservation groups even before the commission voted no on the bill. He didn't write the bill AZSFW lobbyist did and wanted him to introduce the bill. I agree the bill sucks but if we removed every single member of congress who introduced a bill that they didn't write we wouldn't have a single member in the congress of the United States or at the state level. Don't be so damn naive You have a degree use your head.

How many politicians have introduced bills for organizations who donated to their campaigns? Answer probably every damn one of them in congress today!
 
Boskee,

I think you need to "think outside the box".

The average sportsmen/women in North America have done an outstanding job in regard to wildlife conservation in the last 80+ years. They did it without the "johnie come lately" SFW.

What your asking us to do is to sell out the foundation of what makes North American Wildlife Management the best thing going. That being equal access of the Wildlife Resource to EVERYONE. Every time SFW asks for another auction tag, commissioner tag, etc...another brick in that foundation is lost, and another sportsman is excluded.

Its a bunch of bullchit to have to listen to people like you cry that the "cheap" average sportsman dont pay the freight. I'm here to tell you that the average sportsmen pay their own way, have always done so, and always will. We've bore the burden the entire way with no help from SFW.

If you ask me, stripping quality tags from the group of people (average joe hunters) that have created the amazing wildlife resources we all enjoy today is the ultimate slap in the face. The average hunters in this country have worked their a$$es off, now that the heavy lifting is done, SFW swoops in and attempts to rob from us.

Its not fair...and further by god its not right.

There are many, many other ways to raise revenue for wildlife management other than subsidizing SFW through the peddling of the publics resources.

You seem like a smart guy...start taking your own advice and "think outside the box" for answers to the access issue you presented as well as the others.

A good place to start if you're so concerned with access is to ask hunters to foot the bill...Wyoming funds its HMA/Walkin program through donations at license point of sale locations.

This madness of tag thievery has got to stop.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-12 AT 10:07PM (MST)[p]As a sportsman who can read all the legislative mumbo jumbo - it's hard to believe he(WEIERS) couldn't see all the numerous flaws in this bill!

allowing more than one animal taken a yr - this alone allows a single $$$ person to acquire and shot numerous elk-deer etc. a yr

All tags shall be exempt from the bag limit established by the commission except that the qualifying organization shall not issue more than one tag per species per year to an individual except for auction tags.

So, not only are the tags exempt for the annual bag limit, one guy can buy all of them. - Disturbing

this is BS in itself and an insult to the normal hunter


who qualifies- only azsfw qulaifes and basically corners the market on these tags for 4 yrs.

they want the money earned at auctions /raffles to pay for everything first before a single penny is contributed to needy groups!

The qualified organization shall first apply the proceeds from the resale by auction and raffle of the rights to tags to cover all costs associated with the annual sportsmen exposition in this state and any county chapter banquets at which rights to tags are auctioned or raffled. The qualified organization shall apply the remaining proceeds from the resale by auction and raffle of the rights to tags in this state for programs to achieve any of the following purposes, including the qualified organization's costs of administration:


Why was this all being discussed behind closed doors?
I'd like to see where AZSFW actually asked their membership if they supported this crap or not?

Did AZSFW ask the hunters in AZ what they think of the bill?

Why wasnt the AZG&F asked?

How about the commission?

Nobody is answering these simple questions !

trying to sneek this past arizona sportsmen- their own members-the g&f-

the legislators meeting - with weiers brother as chairman

this STINKS -from top to bottom

they got caught trying to undermind the sportsmen /hunters of Arizona to benift themselves

now azswf wants to stop -- ok lets talk about it

to late


KIL THE BILL - KILL THE BILL - KILL THE BILL
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-12 AT 10:16PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-12 AT 10:15?PM (MST)

Dont stop there...theres a particular sportsmens group in AZ that needs to go.

Watch what happens...you'll see an official reply from AZSFW in the next few days, claiming they, "listened to the AZ Sportsmen and reconsidered on this bill"...in a lame attempt to show that they really do care about the average hunter.

How about some pre-decisional involvment from their membership and the licensed hunters of Arizona, the commission, the AZG&F before they try to steal tags???

Gee, theres an idea.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-12 AT 10:34PM (MST)[p]>>I just received the inaugural free
>>issue of Elk Hunter Magazine.
>> Knowing that the staff
>>of this magazine supports objectives
>>that will ultimately destroy public
>>hunting, I don't think I'll
>>subscribe.
>>
>>PETA can legislate our hunting rights
>>away or SFW can legislate
>>it to only a well-heeled
>>few and reap the proceeds,
>>in either case the average
>>hunter looses.
>>
>>The so called hunting conservation organizations
>>have been changing these last
>>few years from organizations that
>>raise money to benefit wildlife
>>to adopting the SFW model
>>of using wildlife to raise
>>money and pushing laws that
>>protect their income streams.
>
>After contact with the Magazine, they
>do not support this bill
>and the Marketing Mgr that
>was quoted has removed his
>Magazine signature lines from his
>posts regarding this topic.
>
>Bob


well which is it bob - more bs?

from Chris Denham:
Friends:

I am heading out the door to the first trade show of the year but I wanted to weigh in HB 2072.

You are probably hearing a lot about HB 2072, which was introduced in the state legislature last week. Most of what I read is a poor interpretation of the actual bill. I encourage you to read it all and make an informed decision.

Let me give you a very brief synopsis of the bill. HB 2072 allows a qualifying organization to purchase about 300 big game tags from the Arizona Game and Fish Department and re-issue them via auction and raffle. The majority of the tags will be sold through a raffle to be held at an annual sportsman?s expo to be held in Arizona. There are six purposes for which this money can be spent, and they are written into the law! Here they are:


1. TO SUSTAIN OR CREATE SPORTSMEN EDUCATION AND OUTDOOR PROGRAMS FOR
YOUTH OF THIS STATE.

2. TO FACILITATE ACCESS FOR SPORTSMEN TO CROSS PRIVATE LANDS ONTO
PUBLIC LANDS.

3. TO SUSTAIN OR ENHANCE HABITAT IN THIS STATE AND TO INCREASE
TARGETED SPECIES POPULATIONS FOR DEER, SHEEP, ELK, PRONGHORN (ANTELOPE) AND
TURKEY IN THIS STATE.

4. TO FACILITATE PUBLIC EDUCATION AND COMMUNICATIONS PROGRAMS RELATING
TO SPORTSMEN AND WILDLIFE ISSUES.

5. TO PROTECT SPORTSMEN HERITAGE.

6. TO CONDUCT OTHER PROGRAMS OR ACTIVITIES THAT PROMOTE CONCEPTS
CONSISTENT WITH THE NORTH AMERICAN MODEL OF WILDLIFE CONSERVATION.
I. THE LEGISLATURE FINDS THAT ALL OF THE PURPOSES IN SUBSECTION H,
PARAGRAPHS 1 THROUGH 6 OF THIS SECTION COMPLEMENT AND ENHANCE THE
DEPARTMENT'S MANAGEMENT OF WILDLIFE IN THE PUBLIC TRUST UNDER THIS TITLE TO
INCLUDE CURRENT AND FUTURE PROGRAMS IN THE DEPARTMENT'S STRATEGIC PLAN AND
COMPREHENSIVE WILDLIFE CONSERVATION STRATEGY. FOR THE PURPOSES LISTED IN
SUBSECTION H OF THIS SECTION, THE QUALIFIED ORGANIZATION MAY USE THE
PROCEEDS, SOLELY OR IN CONJUNCTION WITH OTHER ORGANIZATIONS, TO MAKE MATCHING
OR OTHER GRANTS TO THE DEPARTMENT AND TO ORGANIZATIONS THAT ARE QUALIFIED
PURSUANT TO SECTION 501?(3) OF THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE AND WHOSE ARTICLES


I seriously doubt that anybody would testify that these specific causes are not worthy, or that they are already being adequately managed by a government agency.

I have read multiple e-mails that raise false concerns or are simply incorrect. Here are some examples:

1. This will affect how auction tags are currently distributed. False. HB2072 specifically avoids the subject of special auction tag and will have no bearing on how those tags are distributed.

2. These tags can be resold. False. These tags can only be transferred under the current rules that regulate tag transfers.

3. These tags are being taken away from the average hunter. True, in the short run. Of course we are talking about 0.2 of 1 percent of the tags, the change in drawing odds is so small that it cannot be calculated. Besides, how difficult will it be to increase our big game herds by 0.2 of one percent with a serious cash infusion? These tags will improve the average hunter?s odds of drawing a tag within a very short period of time.

I have read some concerns that are very accurate, such as, ?there are very few groups who could qualify for these tags?. This is very true, the bill is limiting in this regard. But, given the strict controls on how this money is to be spent, what benefit can be derived from splitting the money and further diluting its effectiveness?

I encourage you to read the bill for yourself. I am confident that once you have done that, you will join me in support of this bill.



--
Chris Denham
Marketing Director,
Elk Hunter Magazine
Western Hunter Magazine
480-993-8627
www.westernhuntermagazine.net
www.elkhuntermagazine.com
 
HEY BUZZ JUST HOW MUCH EXTENSIVE HIGH LEVEL FUND RAISING HAVE YOU DONE IN YOUR LIFE? What source do you recommend to replace the $7,000,000, dollars the legislature swept from our departments operational budget? Are you an Az resident? Would it surprise you to understand that even our department has tossed around increasing our auction tags to help with revenue issues. That way they don't have to increase the tag fees to the average sportsman. See Buzz our tags have been virtually cut in half on many species. Why don't you open your wallet Buzz and lets see how far that gets us with these high dollar issues, since many of our regular major contributors are tapped out. See we have high unemployment here and the sportsmen are tapped out too, so while you want to pontificate about sportsmen contributing more ask our conservation groups how that's going. I think you'll see that they aren't breaking any records quite the contrary. Wyoming's issues are Wyoming's issues but when your tag numbers are as low as ours currently you have to find ways to get more bang for you bucks! The best fix for our issues is cold cash and since you seem to think you have the answers come on down and show us how to pass the costs on to the sportsmen concept goes.... but be prepared to scrub off the tar and feathers.

When you understand that many of our residents go 6-10 years w/o a deer tag it's hard to ask them to ante up more when they aren't getting the opportunity you're asking them to fund. Different area and certainly different issues but not anything that a good dose of money couldn't eventually cure.....So how much is it that you're going to contribute since my neighbors are a bit tapped out? Can we put you down for 10 or 20 thousand dollars? Because we can sell an elk tag for many times that but hey since you're sending the check we can have one more tag for the draw! You've got more animals than hunters we on the other hand can't give guys the opportunity they deserve.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-12 AT 10:53PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-12 AT 10:52?PM (MST)

Boskee,

You seem to have a one-track mind...there are answers to funding woes beyond peddling the publics tags to the wealthy.

Take your own advice...think outside the box.

I've contributed an a$$pile of money to Arizona in the last 11 years...2 NR bull permits at $600 each, 2 coues tags at 230 each, 12 years worth of hunting licenses at $150 a pop, 6 years of yearly NR fishing licenses at $70 each, 8 javelina tags at $97 each, and a few short term fishing licenses as well.

Maybe not ten grand...but I'm not afraid to spend some money on supporting Arizona wildlife.

Heres an idea, ask SFW to donate some of their membership money to cover the shortfall.

See how much they offer up.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-12 AT 05:33AM (MST)[p]Buzz I sent you a pm! Having a guy with deep pockets help defray costs for the average guy is a viable solution in my book. Like you said it's not the only solution but none the less it's a workable alternative.

By the way Buzz, what you mentioned are forms of support with the intention of recieving something in return, bonus points, big game tags etc kind of like a raffle. Most guys think they're actually giving and are by doing those things. What I'm talking about Buzz is sitting down and opening your wallet and writing a big fat check knowing full well that you're never going to get a thing out of it except the personal gratification of the moment. Knowing you're not going to see a tag, rifle, hunt, but you're making a large donation to benefit wldlife and other hunters in the process. Writing a check for a weeks wages, months wages or more then you'll understand just how difficult getting guys to open their wallets is. Guys will drop $100.00 in a bar on a night of fun or $500.00 a night in Vegas but most of them have never given a dime to support hunting in any form. What I'm talking about is writing a check for some serious money and with most guys the discussions over way before this point and that's why a raffle works it's a donation just in a smaller form with the chance of knowing you may win something to help entice you to buy that ticket.

To get the really big donations Buzz the ones that could buy a car, or an RV or a house are much more difficult and believe me these guys have been asked more times than you may want to imagine, these donations are really difficult to obtain yet very necessary. Those guys have the same dreams as you and I and bidding on that tag at levels that many can't afford while distasteful to many actually enables the departments and conservation groups to do things at todays bargain prices rather than 10 years down the road with inflated prices.

All donations are important Buzz, but large donations make big things happen and can open gates and improve habitat at the speed of light compared to weeks months or years of collecting smaller donations. We have a need for all of them and there's a place for every single dime it's just up to us to make sure the funds are spent wisely and earmarked for the benefit of wildlife with the highest percentages we can not padding some guys pockets with no accountability. So while you think it's wrong please understand I shared your viewpoint until I actually saw first hand the big returns on big donations and understand that those donations if handled right are funding hunting's future in their own way. It takes big chunks of monsy Buzz so while you think I'm simple minded it's you that needs to think outside the box and truly open your eyes.

When the conservation groups and sportsmen own the lands they can make the rules and that right there is the only way to preserve hunting's future for posterity. Lands set aside for hunting and fishing free of encroachment and the environmental lobby just like Theodore Roosevelt envisioned with his plan before the states and the feds and the Clintons got to work protecting it from the common man and taking away our right to use it one case and cause at a time all the while getting the taxpayer to fund the costs and ill concieved notions along the way. Using the resource to fund the concept to protect & preserve the resource is not a bad idea it's fundamentally brilliant. We used to be able to access our forests and many millions of acres of BLM land that we're being locked out of every single day. When we own it or have long term access contracts future generations will still be able to hunt, yes it may cost us a few tags now but in the end the rewards outweigh the costs and each of us contributes deep pockets or not in their own way.
 
Chris Denhams response posted above,if it did come from Chris,was well scripted but still failed to answer the biggest question in my mind. If this is such a good thing for AZ sportsmen and women why the need to push it through the back door as a pseudo emergency measure? To me this speaks volumes about the integrity and ethics of the very organization that will gain the biggest benefit and be responsible for managing most of the money generated by this measure... Terry
 
The bill flat out stunk Terry and the way it was handled smelled even worse! I'm betting it never sees the light of day!
 
Boskee-you are a drama queen. We can and will continue to manage the herds well here and G&F just made a statement that they in no way support any part of this sneaky bill. I learned 40 years ago managing a large business that you cannot compromise your ethics. You are either ethical or not. What was done here by SFW was unethical and self promoting. They wrote this bill and gave a monetary incentive to the politicians as part of the deal. If we allow whoring our big game we are just like Utah. You can talk the line all you want but if Weiers continues to support Peay he will find a growing contingent that will support his opponent in the next election.
 
>http://azgfd.net/artman/publish/New...to-oppose-HB-2072-sale-of-big-game-tags.shtml
>
>+1 for the azgfd commission!


>>>>>>>>>>>As part of its 5-0 vote to oppose the bill, the commission also directed its representatives to ?clearly inform the sponsor and supporters of this bill that our opposition is not just to the bill as written, but to the entire concept of removing or adding any big game tags from the pool of big game tags available for the general public and transferring them to any private organization.?

In discussion leading up to the vote, several commissioners expressed strong concerns over the bill.

?We have a trust responsibility to manage wildlife for all the citizens of this state, and I see some real issues in this legislation that takes part of that away from us,? said Commission Chair Robert Woodhouse. ?I think we need to speak on behalf of all citizens of this state.?

Among the concerns commissioners expressed over this particular legislation are which organizations would qualify, how money would be spent, who would benefit, and what accountability there would be over expenditures.

Commissioners pointed out that the proposed legislation differs from current law that authorizes the commission to issue a small number of big game tags to nonprofit organizations dedicated to wildlife conservation. Awarding these tags is through an open and competitive process that allows the organizations to auction or raffle those tags. All the proceeds come back to the Arizona Game and Fish Department for projects that support wildlife management.

?Public trust assets must never be diverted to benefit special interests,? said Commissioner Norm Freeman. ?The language of the bill itself is fraught with problems, and the very premise should be discarded in its entirety.?<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I agree 100%, word for word, with everything stated in this article. Clear, simple, common sense.

As a nonresident I'd sooner give all my points (14 lope, 14 sheep, 10 elk, 11 deer) back to AZG&F for nothing than allow one single big game tag be whored out to any special interest group.

If there ever comes a day when any state wants to whore out tags, if there were no politics involved, why wouldn't they just post them on the AZG&F website and deposit all the funds directly into a AZG&F account? We all know why.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-12 AT 08:34AM (MST)[p]Boskee-- As stated above, everyone, and I mean everyone involved with this back door, behind closed door, and deliberately sneaky, failed attempt to passed this falsely labeled "emergency" bill, deserves to be considered suspect in the eyes of the average Joe hunter. If it was such a great idea, done with the interest of that average Joe hunter, there is absolutely no excuse for not submitting this in the open and having it proceed in the normal process! I really do not care what you may say about how good the supporters are, no way could such good people be caught up in such a deceitful effort.

As to the merits of your stated concerns, I do agree our hunting community faces serious attacks by the Anti Hunting groups and have difficult ongoing issues to address. But the manner in which this effort was made, especially when everyone agrees the bill was poorly written, is not the way it should be done. As far as I am concerned, those involved should be viewed with complete distrust.
 
The fact of the matter is simple. SFW and organizations like them are out to destroy the North American Model of Wildlife Management. They seek to turn hunting into a sport for the wealthiest and best connected people at the expense of the public. They are in the business of selling wildlife to line their own pockets plain and simple. They may start out with good intentions but always succumb to greed.

If their motivations were so well meaning, they would have no paid employees or directors. They would get the work done strictly by volunteers and turn 100% of the proceeds of their efforts over to Game and Fish. This is not the case. A small non-profit cannot justify paying huge salaries or providing a lavish lifestyle to employees, but if they can get their revenues up into the millions, the big salaries and expense accounts are expected.

AZSFW may not be affiliated with Don Peay, but if that's the case, they sure took a page right out of his playbook. Maybe they want to buy a hunting ranch in Canada next to the one the UTSFW bought with wildlife funds so they can have a nice private place of their own to hunt and raise funds with their sympathetic legislators and fat cat whales.

Why is there no Oklahoma SFW or NY SFW? I'm sure all of the other states need representation for sportsman and have wildlife issues as well. I'll tell you why. Those states don't have tags that will bring hundreds of thousands of dollars at auction.

Sportsman need representation. We don't need to be fleeced. And we sure as hell don't need the SFW.
 
Okay point out 1 post where I stated that i supported this legislation you won't find that statement by me. It's not there in fact i went to lengths to say on different posts that I didn't support the bill. I am guilty of stating that we need to create a vehicle where we can accumulate monies to improve access with full disclosure. Maybe I'm moving to fast for some of you on here to understand my logic or position. TO CLARIFY ONCE AGAIN THE BILL SUCKED AND SHOULDN"T BE PASSED!!!

Glen you accuse me of being a drama queen yet you know full well these two organizations aren't affiliated and were set up differently not allowing auction or landowner tags for that very reason yet you link them back to PEAY. Prop 109 was defeated because the hunting community itself created enough doubt's from uninformed hunters thinking conspiracy about the legislation that was drawn up to protect hunting and fishing to make it harder for special interest groups to create issues.

Since you have vast business knowledge please expound on a few ideas you have to help solve the issue and create large sums of capital Im sure our conservation groups are all ears and so is the department. I think the concept had merit but wasn't in the best interests of sportsmen as written w/o disclosure & controls. Then maybe you can tell me just how ill conceived the RMEF plans for nature conservancy and long time access agreements is flawed because those plans have proven to be successful and allowed hunters & states to qualify for matching funds from different sources to to fund programs where rights are set up for future generations and premium tag sales & hunts are one of many sources to help achieve this goal. The resource being utilized to help fund future acquisitions is an essential component in that plan flawed as it may be.

Issues we got folks it's the money to alleviate the issues that seems to be in short supply and we need some varied vehicles to allow us to be be to generate capital. Is this the right vehicle? I don't know but those of you even with limited math skills can't argue about the (ROI) return on investment that's possible with these tags compared to the long term methods smaller donations generate. Our auction tags have always been extremely limited but maybe our frugality as end users isn't necessarily getting us the best ROI. We don't have to go the UTAH route but it's the undisputable leader in revenue generation that we are utilizing today bar none. How many guys do you piss off increasing the application fee to $15.00 a whole lot more than allowing tag fees to stay at the same level yet allocate a few more tags to do the work we need to achieve. It has a lot more upside than down IMO and that was my point.
 
One way to get extra money is to audit the G&F and eliminate waste. I will be willing to bet there are thousands and thousands of dollars going to waste due to lack of accountability.

I did a temp job with the Colorado DOW and in the short amount of time I was there I saw tons of money being wasted. Put limits on letting employees have free reign with a department credit card.

A few years back G&F printed the regulations in spanish. Does anybody know if they still do this? Doesn't it seem like a waste? Of course it wont solve the entire money issue, but it is a start.
 
"Issues we got folks it's the money to alleviate the issues that seems to be in short supply and we need some varied vehicles to allow us to be be to generate capital."

You can't take tags from the $15/hr Joe6Pack hunter, then turn around and auction them to the $150K/year hunter.
While it generates the needed revenue, it's short sighted and alienates the core group of hunters.

That's what's wrong with SFW, and what's wrong with this Legislation.
 
As a matter of fact I do have vast business knowledge since I ran a corporation for the last 30 years. You act like this state will fall apart unless we adopt the SFW model. You are wrong. Get by on what we have and stop trying to open up our G&F to outside political influence. You are also full of crap on Peay. If you think Don has zero to do with Arizona just because they are a seperate corporation I call BS. If he has zero influence why is SFW trying to pull off the exact scam they pulled in Utah? AZ tags would be the crowning gem if he can gain access. Not going to happen so give up on defending them.
 
Gee glen I'm disappointed all that knowledge and the best you can do is control expenses.... :^) Hostess tried that and the twinkie sales still didn't carry the day Imagine how our declining resource numbers can impact those figures.. That's the best you got? See I have no issues with the AZGFD controlling the tags but there are advantages to having the conservation groups with departmental approval holding some monies since any surplus not earmarked is subject to the whims of our legislature and their scrutiny.

I'm sure that AZSFW will most likely meet its demise as a result of this epic blunder so your suspicions about the Peay ties will be moot. In any case we'll see how monies for access and other related issues arise and just where we'll find the funds to solve the issues going forward. I'm done on this.
 
So who got the WYSFW started? I heard a Don Peay chosen stooge was sent from Utah and got the organization started there, possibly even using money out of the Utah SFW coffers. Any truth to that?
 
Well Boskee we all know the side you are on. You want to hide funds from view so SFW and whoever else wants to pig the system can get away with it. If you are serious about selling Twinkies you need to write the bill to mandate 90% of all proceeds be given to G&F to use for wildlife. Not for you and your buddies to hide away and sprinkle around. This has to be the best thing that ever happened for Arizona hunters. You clowns just buried yourselves.
 
as most people have responded, this bill stinks and shouldn't have been set for the last minute. sremin hit the nail on the head, if an independent efficiency group reviewed azgfd operational budget, millions of dollars could be found that are misspent or wasted that could go to wildlife and field officers instead of spent inefficiently. in addition to these potential dollars, the increase of auction tags may be necessary but without consulting sportsmens groups, the public or the commission, how did Arizona sportsmen for wildlife look out for me? boskee makes some logical points, but Arizona sportsmen for wildlife was to be our representative watching out for us the average Joe who couldn't lobby on their own. after this debacle I wonder who can be trusted. don't all the AZ conservation groups send something like 10% of proceeds to AZ sportsmen for wildlife now?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-12 AT 11:29PM (MST)[p]run over to the other site and see where all the money fron azsfw went in 09 - impressive - pockets got lined!
 
Here are the board members

ARIZONA SPORTSMEN FOR WILDLIFE
CHAIRMAN: Alan Hamberlin

BOARD MEMBERS

Chris Denham
Brian Dolan
Randy Gaskill
Hays Gilstrap
Floyd Green
Todd Hulm
Nick Heatwole
Mark Nuessle
Art Pearce
Trent Swanson

LOBBYIST: Suzanne Gilstrap

For information contact us at:

Arizona Sportsmen for Wildlife
P. O. Box 13116
Phoenix, AZ 85002-3116

or email us at [email protected]his e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it
 
Our Mission...

To make Arizona Sportsmen an effective force in determining political, legislative, educational and administrative issues that promote wildlife, wildlife habitat and the continuation of our hunting and fishing traditions.

What is Arizona Sportsmen for Wildlife?

AZSFW is a political advocacy organization that actively represents the interests of wildlife and sportsmen by promoting legislation that is beneficial and aggressively opposing legislation that is harmful at the state, federal and other levels of government.

The positions of AZSFW are very clear:

AZSFW will advocate for public policy issues of importance to preserving
Arizona?s wildlife populations and its habitat.

AZSFW will advocate for issues that positively impact Arizona?s wildlife and
wildlife habitats.

AZSFW will advocate for policies that reflect the role hunting and fishing plays
in a comprehensive wildlife management program.

AZSFW will work diligently with its membership throughout the state to ensure
its members have a voice to identify short term and long range issues that impact
Arizona?s wildlife and wildlife habitat and dedicate itself to designing strategic
solutions to effectively address such issues. ...read the entire Arizona Sportsmen for Wildlife Policy and Position Statement

Why should you be a Member of AZSFW?

Sportsmen have a long history of conserving wildlife and supporting modern wildlife management. Unfortunately, while we have been the watchdog for wildlife, only a few have been "watching out" for sportsmen. We need YOU to join with us to fight for the things we value most; our ability to hunt and fish, and thus insure that wildlife will be here long into the future.

To join is quite easy, you can mail in your donation,
just download an application and attach your check. ...Pay by Mail and Membership Application

or

Donate online using the PayPal option in the left column of this page
 
Figures that the Gilstrap clan was in the middle of this mess. Peay tapped her right after they started this branch. If any organization is tything 10% to this bunch of crooks you deserve to get slammed by the membership. Sucker move right there.
 
bad day is coming, a guy will have to join a country club and pay for a land owner tag from a crony broker just to hunt.
 
I have known 3 unquestionable SP's in my life. Based on everything I have read about DP, I have a strong suspicion we are all dealing with another one. It would be a very valid explanation for these latest totally irrational actions. Does anyone know him well enough for an opinion? If so, PM me. If you have not had significant interaction with a SP, you won't understand this. Thanks.

 
I haven't served on that board in well over a year. I know another guy on that list isn't on their board anymore either.

I know this info is the most recent published on their website but its incorrect.

FYI, I'm totally against this bill.

Nick
 
off another site

looks like from 06-07-08-09 this organization racked up a cool 348,ooo dollars in managament/professional fees - whos says non - profit groups aren't profitable
 
Nick...... I have a lot of respect for you and the efforts you have made for sportsmen and women over the years, did you leave the board because the mission was drifting off course?.... Terry
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-12 AT 08:44AM (MST)[p]Glen, it's about time you brush up on your reading comprehension skills. Apparently you can't understand the verbage in I DON"T SUPPORT THIS LEGISLATION, and would require full disclosure. Now wise guy, I'm not a member of this organization and never have been.

Here's a little something for you to ponder. If we created a few more auction tags and used the proceeds from the sale of those tags to purchase 200 antelope from Wy. That would give us a good starting point to increase our depleted numbers. We take these antelope and put them up on Anderson mesa and use the additional funds for predator control and growing the resource. No increase in permits for 3 years. Just how many small groups do you think we could transplant to other areas of the state from that core? We've done it before and it worked for antelope, elk, sheep and deer so it can work again. From this herd of antelope we purchase, we use them as a basis to fund the same types of plans with other species to increase the resources. Now the beauty in this is there was no reduction in permits net( in fact we created more tags) and a huge upside in game numbers and hunting opportunity in the future. Now there's a hell of a lot more upside to this, than just watching your expenses skippy.

The problem with people like you is that if you implement and manage programs like these you can do a world of good. But you have to look past the lack of opportunity card first and that's where people like you get overwhelmed. The problem is MONEY and that's the part where we have to get creative and use the resource in a manner that can work for us to create more hunter opportunity for the future not just the same opportunity we have which is declining every single year especially with antelope..

I AGREE WITH YOU that you have to control things and we can't line anyone's pockets in the process. But guys like you need to wake up a bit and realize there are organizations out there that have done wonderful things for hunters in AZ like the Arizona Elk Society. They use auction tags and the proceeds on access issues and habitat improvement projects all year long and work very closely with the department. For the record I'm not a member of that organization either, but I have nothing but admiration for what they do for sportsmen in our state. This is an example of a club that does things the right way so it can be done. See that's why I don't have any issues with the department's involvement in the process.

Now by creating vehicles like these, more doors open for sportsmen in that when you have money it avails you to qualify for matching fund programs from several much larger organizations. Big organizations like RMEF, Sheep Foundation, NRA, and other well funded organizations can assist with projects. In addition the AZG&F department working in conjunction with the clubs may have programs that qualify for federal matching funds. So what was $50,000 became $100,000 and then could grow again by state and federal participation. Not all programs work that way, but habitat improvement projects can qualify in many cases.

Now Glen I managed to show you in 10 short minutes how auction tags can actually work for you. So next time you think you're going to drag me thru the mud by linking me with an organization that I publicly stated I'm not now or ever have been a paid member of you need to accept that. People can agree with a concept but not agree with the way somebody intended to utilize it and still manage to see where good ideas can be cultivated.

You see Glen when you've worked for and managed big companies that handles millions of dollars every single day you learn to listen and try to understand what your employees are saying. Many good ideas come from other people's thoughts or intentions when if massaged can be beneficial. So when I tell you the concept was good on this yet the bill bad and I don't support it, that's what I mean.

Now skippy, lets see you find all the flaws in my thoughts on this and then expound on just how auction and raffle tags can't be used to be beneficial to sportsmen and wildlife. I created more opportunity, than we gave up initially, we grew the resource, we improved habitat, controlled predators, and increased revenues and future tags for hunters. YEP it'll never work.... but it's sure better than controlling expenses isn't it and look at how many more permits we created hundreds. Now what was your plan again? You may have owned a company but I managed to run a few and managed to get big fat bonuses for being able to think outside the box. Now one last time I didn't support the bill and phoned my congressmen to oppose it. Got It?
 
Bottom line on that deal Terry was I was sick of fighting. I lost my passion. Some of it was personalities, some of it was issues, but most of all I was ready to go back to hunting and not fighting about hunting. I drew a sheep and goat tag in 2010 and was basically a worthless representative, so I cashed in my chips and am now one of the regular Joes again.

I like the way this new gig is working out a lot better!
 
OK skippy, you don't and never have supported this bill or SFW. Good. Explain from your vast corporate knowledge why the pre-SFW groups could not work with G&F to come up with just a few more tags, maintain the higher auction prices and do the work you stated? Why do we need to bastardize our G&F and Commission by forcing them to bend to SFW? Why would we trust SFW to be honest and ethical with our resource when they have proven over and over that they utilize the funds to line their pockets? Look at the money they have generated to date then look at the compensation to Gilstrap and tell me they did enough to wad a shotgun. One thing I learned from corporate life that cost me a small fortune was if the CEO was a crook he would do anything to continue to line his pockets.
 
Some of you guys are missing the point. The issue is not about providing Game & Fish with more money or supporting specific projects that need funding. Looking to cut waste at G&F is a great idea but has nothing to do with the motivation behind this bill.

This bill is simply a way to legalize the sale of wildlife in the state of Arizona so a few select people can make a huge profit. A profit that comes at the expense of the citizens and wildlife.

SFW should change their name to Profiteering From Wildlife to match up to their true mission.
 
Glen we didn't need to bend to SFW I think SFW got overzealous and tried the old end around. There's no reason why the older established groups couldn't have done as you suggested if they could have demonstrated to the department their intentions But other groups probably would oppose it unless they got more tags too. The key for us in the checks and balance sytem is the department and commission always had the control. I like you not being a member of AZSFW had no idea of how or what they were spending their money on. I like you was blindsided by this little exercise.

One of our issues as sportsmen is we never seem to be able to find common ground to make positive things happen. AZSFW was supposed to be the group that represented all sportsmen and had the clout to be able to make things happen. Hunting groups aren't organized and never seem to be able to get things done from a legislative point of view. AZSFW was supposed to be that arm and with the people involved, their knowledge the experience was there.

But..... it takes money to pay a lobbyist and support staff etc. These are things most hunters never can understand, because we aren't involved in the legislative process. I'm not DEFENDING THEM but it costs money to lobby. I like you had no way of knowing anything about their organizations budget etc. I suspect they exhausted/ depleted their funds and saw the auction tags as the remedy to fix that & drafted the legislation and asked Weiers to introduce the bill ( as a paid supporter of his reelection) saying they had support (pure speculation on my part but I'll bet I'm close). That's how we got where we are today... The public found out and stopped the presses. AZSFW used that unwadded shotgun to blow off their foot!

Going behind the publics back in any organization and trying to divert or take away funds politically is dangerous business. Going behind the sportsmans groups and fellow hunters only compounds the matter since your organizations function and purpose is to represent them. To say this thing was handled wrong is a gross understatement.

No matter what the circumstances were, they should have communicated better and let people know what the hell was going on. Handling things in this manner lost them the trust of sportsmen and their groups. As a businessman you know full well, if you lose the publics trust......it takes 10 times the effort it took in the first place just to get them to listen let alone the difficulty involved rebulding the relationship. You used the word ethics Glen, and that right there was what was lacking in this mess. Too bad because now we have another black eye to deal with as sportsmen.
 
Going behind the publics back in any organization and trying to divert or take away funds politically is dangerous business. Going behind the sportsmans groups and fellow hunters only compounds the matter since your organizations function and purpose is to represent them. To say this thing was handled wrong is a gross understatement.

An likely the biggest PR boondoggle by any organization to occur in this state. Now everything AZSFW does will be viewed with a critical eye and lack of trust.





TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
Where the heck did Boskee go? That guy was perfectly reasonable! All I know is the Gilstraps and SFW have been plotting from the start to do exactly what they just tried. They were caught and just ruined their chances here. I just read that SFW raised $384000 in the last three years and Suzanne got 90% of that money so there is no way they have helped us here at all. I think SFW had a plan to set up the commission with their cronies and whore out a few politicians. I have written to both republicans and democrats in the legislature so I hope they meet some real resistance next time they try this type of con game.
 
The bill is dead. Weiers met last night and said he pulled it and it was never coming back. He said he got hundreds of emails and calls and some were down right ugly. Hope SFW ends up as dead as this bogus bill.
 
from a member of azsfw - postedon cwt


I was a participant this morning in a meeting with Representative Jerry Weiers. The group apologized for the problems that we had caused him, particularly in light of the fairly crude and vicious e-mails he has received. We all agreed that the voice of the hunting community has been heard and that any further work on the bill would simply prolong an ugly process. Representative Weiers has informed the AZGFD as well as the legislature that the bill is permanently pulled. For all of those on this website, it means that there will be no further action and the bill is history. The AZSFW apologized for the pain it has caused all parties and will not be pursued. I suspect that this will not be enough for some, but at the very least this issue is now gone. Thanks for those who participated in a thoughtful and cohesive manner. I enjoyed to some extent learning what people thought and I have to admit I was surprised by some of the venom. The issue was one that brought immediate response, and that is also part of the process. I would hope that for those who have vilified Rep Weiers that you can reconsider any action against his political future. He currently is also the sponsor for the AZGFD Omnibus bill and that speaks volume of the respect that the department and commission have for him. As for those of us who supported the bill, you may of course continue to question our methods and ideology it is every one of your rights to do so. Thanks for all the postings, critiques, suggestions and my new nicknames.
 
Watch what happens...you'll see an official reply from AZSFW in the next few days, claiming they, "listened to the AZ Sportsmen and reconsidered on this bill"...in a lame attempt to show that they really do care about the average hunter.


Shocking...who'd a thunk it?
 
Any politician or public servant that promotes handing over the public's resources to the Big Game Country Club needs to realize without any doubt they will be targeted for political and career destruction. Keep the Big Game Country Club out of AZ. There are many ways to solve the problems without these cronys.
 
thanks TONY -

we do not need organiztions who offer a pretence of helping AZ wildlife when tax records show - they only line their own pockets first!!
 
This bill and the method with which it was "introduced" is the most perverted politics I've ever witnessed in my 20 years of wildlife proaction. I seriously have to question the psychological stability of the dictator, DP, to have actually believed he could pull this off.

I have known 3 unquestionable SP's in my life. Based on everything I have read about DP, I have a strong suspicion we are all dealing with another one. It would be a very valid explanation for these latest totally irrational actions. Does anyone know him well enough for an opinion? If so, PM me. If you have not had significant interaction with a SP, you won't understand this. Thanks.

 
Congrats to all of us in AZ that wrote emails and made a few calls to help stop this!!!!! Great JOB!!!!!

Now the AZSFW can go back under the rock they crawled out from under!!!!!!

Now.... Maybe a boycott of some of the guys that own companies that sell hunting gear and sell magazines to us!!!! I for one will never do business with any of them now that I know their true colors!!!! Goodbye OUTDOORSMANS!!!
 
Dont forget to thank the NR hunters who enjoy hunting Arizona that sent emails, made calls, etc.
 
I, for one, am a little reluctant to pass judgement on the AZ SFW and their leadership. I have talked to Chris Denham a few times over the years and I have found him to be a very honorable person. I knew Floyd Green when I was younger and I know people thought very highly of him as well.

I wrote to all the legislators and let them know that I didn't approve of this bill and I thought it should be stopped.

With that said, I can't figure out what their motivation was. I would like to hear an official response from the organization explaining what their "real" purpose was in trying to get this fast-tracked. I find it really hard to believe that they would be so arrogant to think they could get this passed for the reasons so many on here aledge.

I was at the meeting a few years back when Don Peay came to speak. I'll admit Don is a very convincing man and has a way with words. I can see why does well in political circles. However, the AZ representation at the meeting promised us the AZ SFW would not be like the Utah SFW. But they made it very clear that it takes money to fight the political fight.

Face it folks. It's a dog-eat-dog world out there and we sportsman need political representation. Representation is not free and it takes people with thick skin and clout. Simply volunteering to do a clean up or fence removal is not enough anymore. We still need to do all thiose things but we need someone fighting for us in this ever changing environment.

I have no problem creating 15-30 auction tags of various species every year to pay for lobbyist and representation. I just don't want people trying to sneak something through without the support and knowledge of AZG&F and the hunting community.

Treat us honestly and explain your intent and then we can talk.


John Hay
 
Buzz, Absolutely thank you to all the NR that helped out with any and all efforts!! It was huge and successfull!!

John, Thats what really stinks about it, I too really had alot of respect for both of these guys! A ton to be exact. They have been amazing in the past with spearheading all kinds of pro AZ hunting issues. I guess greed, with money tags or power, can get ahold of anyone.
 
John
I can understand your concerns about hastily rushing to judgment. But the facts are undisputed, these "good people", in a deliberately deceitful way, tried to sneak thru a falsely labeled bill, which everyone agrees was poorly written and was not written for the benefit of the average Joe. It is undisputed these "good people" wanted to make sure the average Joe did not have the opportunity to participate in the review process. I have no doubt they can talk a good game, and will have a story to tell in their attempt to explain how they are still good people who can be trusted. That is the problem with these types, they are very good at deceit and very good as hiding what their true intentions are. Bottom line, when you catch them in a mess such as this, in my book, I have seen enough to know they can't be trusted.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-13-12 AT 12:25PM (MST)[p]"...........a little reluctant to pass judgement on the AZ SFW and their leadership".

You're joking.....right?

What exactly do they need to do to get your attention......rape and murder your family? You may have a buddy or two who may be nice guys, but my guess is they have little input on DP's slithery decisions.

If it looks like a skunk, smells like a skunk, sounds like a skunk, and acts like a skunk............for 10 years no less!........I'm going to deduce it is a skunk!

Here maybe this will help out your decision making.........Hot off the presses, as in this morning:

Don Peay/SFW cronnie resigns as director of Alaska Game & Fish for 12 counts of poaching. This was after unilaterally deciding to divert 4 of the 11 Alaska governor's tags to SFW.

http://www.adn.com/2012/01/12/2260922/wildlife-chief-charged-with-hunt.html

http://www.themudflats.net/2011/11/16/a-disaster-for-alaskas-department-of-fish-and-game/
 
Hello again OUTDOORWRITER,
I have followed this thread with extreme interest. I have seen the arguments of both sides presented with passion, determination & respect.
It is amazing to me how quickly this Bill was squashed and the truth exposed.
We have all witnessed how powerful this media can be.
There remains only one thing I have to add.

THANK YOU FOR BRINGING THIS ISSUE TO OUR ATTENTION!

Had you not done so, I suspect the results would have been much different.

Again, Thank you.

Douglas Karraker
(aka) Elkchaser
 
+1000 KUDOS TO TONY elkchaser!! but the commission and the department still would have been able to veto it because of the safeguards in the system. As I understand it the commission must approve any tags allocated for auctions or raffles within the framework of the law and regulations. WHEN THE COMMISSION VETOED IT THEY KNEW IT WAS OVER!

The system worked!! Make no mistake about it the public outcry was heard but knowing the quality of the individuals within our department and our esteemed commissioners it was doomed from the day the poisoned pen drafted it. Even with legislative support it still can't happen because our AZG&F isn't governed by the legislature. Our department takes it's direction from the commission.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-12 AT 08:44AM (MST)[p]Boskee,

I'm not positive the above is true, i.e. the commission overriding a state law. I believe Title 17 takes precedence over any "rule making" by the commission, and all it can do is either support or be anti to any proposed legislation.

And by law, the G&F department itself, as a state agency, cannot take any stance on legslation. That's why I didn't name any of my sources in regards to this.

IOW, had this bill passed, I believe the AGFD and the commission would have been helpless to not follow its mandates. That's probably why neither of them were consulted and didn't even see the bill until a week ago -- a few days before it was to go to committee.

BUT..I will be at the commission banquet this evening to get my "outdoor writer of the year" award for 2011 and will definitely bring up that point in conversation.

Stay tuned.

TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-12 AT 12:13PM (MST)[p]Good job Tony, appreciation from a NR that doesn't like the Big Game Country Club. btw I did call AZDFG, told them I will be spending my money in AZ not Utah or NM because of the way they make sure the tags are drawn to the public. There are many and much better ways to solve our problems than creating Crony Big Game Country Clubs. (Big Game Country Club = politically connected cronies using deceptive and corrupt tactics to acquire public resources for the benefit of the few that can afford to join their club)
 

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