More Poaching..more tribal issues

[boneaddict]

AS IN THE Yakima Herald 11-20-06

Three hunters-two of them Yakama Nation members and one non-tribal hunter- were caught Saturday morning and charged with illegallyusing a spotlight to hunt elk in the Oak Creek Wildlife area.
Sgt Morgan Grant of the enforcement division of the Washinton Department of Fish and Wildlife said that officer Skip Caton was patrolling Forest Service road 1400 often referred to by hunters the Oak Creek road- on Saturday morning when he saw 4 dead elk. He got out to check around and found some empty shell casings and called for back-up.
Continuing up the road another mile or two, Caton found three more dead elk. Further still up the road, he came upon a pickup truck with a dead spike in the truck bed and three-firearm toting men alongside. The mend said they had just killed three deer and were about to hike up onto the hill to retrieve the deer, Grant said.
At this point, Grant arrived with another officer, Shawn Myers. The WDFW crew conducted a more thorough interview of the men, who admitted having used a spotlight to kill the seven elk before sunrise and had intended to pick up the carcasses later.
Had they not used the spotlight, the two tribal members would have been within their treaty hunting rights, Grant said. But theres both tribal and state law that prohibits the use of spotlight to aid in the hunting of big game.
Tribal police subsequently charged the two tribal members with the hunting big game with the aid of a spotlight, Grant said. The WDFW officers forwarded to prosecuters the case of the non-tribal member, who was hunting out of season and for that matter, didn't even have a hunting license. All three hunters live in the Toppenish area, Grant said.

Does anyone else see anything wrong with this!!!!!!!!!!or am I just a bigot. I hope they hang whitie, but what a slap on the wrist for killing 8 elk and leaving the bodies. Why is that within treaty?????????????

 

[Craig]

I bet all the charges on the two tribal members will go away and nothing will happen to them. You would think the Yakima tribal members would stay away from the whole oak creek area after what happened there a couple years ago with the bull elk poaching.

 

[couesbitten]

Let's not pass judgement, this is probably just a time of the month where the tribal guys are in between their Government "because we mistreated the indians" checks, and they were only doing it to supply food for their families. Even if that's not the case, you know that they were just out there carrying on in the "Traditions of Our Fathers". I think Craig is probably right about the charges, they were only "charged" to create a smoke screen. I still say to he!! with the treaties, become part of the real world if you want to survive and prosper. You hunt off the reservation, you obey our rules/laws.

Scott

 

[Dmanmastertracker]

I was on that road just last year and saw four carcases laying next to the road, older kills deer and elk. All of the treaty hunting rights were signed in to being prior to 1900 as far as I can recall. The Rocky Mountain Elk is not native here and was not here at the time of the treaty signing, so I am not at all sure why tribes, or anyone else would be guarenteed a share of harvest of that particular species. It seems that WDFW should have exclusive right of management of that species, being they introduced it in to our State, much like WDFW does not allow hunting for our only Woodland Caribou herd, why are Rocky Mtn. Elk different? While I am in favor of protecting tribal rights, in this case, tribes simply never relied on the Rocky Mtn. Elk for sustenance prior to the treaties being signed in Washington. There should at least be a 50/50 split on that species between all elk hunting interests (per current treaty laws) and the only way to acheive that is by ALL hunters having to report harvest. You simply cannot manage game without this information. It really is a waste of our taxpayer dollars to pay our agencies to manage these species when they don't have the tools to do it effectively.

 

[old_man_of_the_hills]

I say let them shoot all of the animals they want whenever they want...with the technology they had before the whites came! That I would have no problem with.

 

[Hornseeker]

I'm with Old Man...they can hunt whatever...whenever...even at night! IF...IF...they use bows and arrows they made themselves and walk to the hunting area...

BS! I've seen some awful accounts of tribal poaching in the White River area in W. Washington...from what I could tell, if the elk didn't die on the road, they made NO effort to collect it, as it would have been too much work. We'd find gutpiles on the road, then find whole dead elk 100 yards downhill from the road....

I am NOT an indian basher...but it seems like they really have no respect for the game like historical accounts show they used to... (generalizing there....sorry).

 

[Hawkk33]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-06 AT 04:42PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-06 AT 04:39?PM (MST)

It seems your just a bigot, as I suspect most of you are. Which is fine, just free yourself and admit it, life would be so much easier.

Dman, I agree with your logic and think tribes with those kind of rights should cough up harvest data so that state F&W dept can set tag numbers based on empirical data.

Now onto my .02 cents.

The case hasn't gone to court and yet you immediately cast dispersions on the legal system's on that reservation. I hope they publically flog them a-holes.

NEWS FLASH: Not all natives have treaty rights and for that matter some have to abide by the same rules are regulations of the state in which they reside. But lets not use any brain matter to think in that context, lets judge an entire race by the actions of a few. It's way easier that way isn't it.

NEWSFLASH: Not every native condones abuses of wildlife that treaty tribes are guilty of. It is true that some have lost their connection with the old ways and have learned your ways.. yeah I said it.....your ways. Maybe not you per se' but one of you reading this post is guilty of doing the exact same sh*t those idiots did or you know some people that have.

Since you want to lump all groups into one bunch based on one action I can to;

D*** non native people, all they do is poach and get measely fine slaps on the wrists.

I would bet my eye teeth that more game is poached per capita by non natives than natives in this country.

-There are non native families that are generational poachers but we wont talk about those and how wrong that is ..will we?

-I bet some of the MM members have shot an animal and left it to rot once they figured out it wasn't "book" quality. But that is ok.. right?

-More of your kind use illegal means, trespass, and abuse the land per capita than any other race. Be that by illegal scouting methods chute planes, helicopters, etc.

-Your into using atv's, radios and other forms of technology. but lets not look at that. You are allowed to. Aren't you ?

Let's take a look at the post about the elk poachers in Nevada
http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID12/7059.html

I bet you all just think they were kids having a good time...right

what about these fella's ;

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID5/8828.html

This one was brought up and it was assumed poachers were native;

http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-b...az=show_thread&om=8770&forum=DCForumID5&omm=0

Seems there are two separate schools of thought where an issue like this is concerned and that is unfortunate.

 

[need2hunt]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-06 AT 04:52PM (MST)[p]As some of you fella's know I am an indian but I will choose to, for the most part, stay out of this one. All I can say is that all poachers suck. This type of behavior by natives only makes it hard for the rest of us indians to enjoy sharing our passion for hunting with our non-native brothers.

Have you ever tried telling a hunting story to someone only to have them fall silent and turn a deaf ear simply because they found out you were an indian?!

 

[motcha]

WOW, this subject comes up again and again, as it will over and over. I am mad because I am a Native, and seeing all the pointed fingers and such, but I say heck, take away their rights for years and years! We have that in place here, we have seasons and there are violators, and they are punished if they violate given hunting regulations set by the Tribe.

How many of you know a Native member of a affiliated Tribe? I mean really know them? Are all of your opinions and points of view carried on thorugh word of mouth?

But carry on and bash them, I say them because they are not one of us, they do not respect the animal as all sportsman should! But through the mentality of today, and the hunter wanting automatic success and gratitude of a trophy animal, you cannot say that you would be any better if you were one of them!

 

[Dmanmastertracker]

Thanks for the comment Hawk, good to hear other's feel the same. I have the unique distinction of having significant native heritage (great grandmother was Blackfoot), but I do not know her native name. My aunts/ uncle's don't know either, though I've been researching it for a while I would have to likely pay a lump some to find out. Sorry, went on a tangent.
This issue, like many hunting/ wildlife issues comes up frequently and like anything else, progress is never made by pointing fingers when 100% of the time your talking about a minority of bad eggs that ruin a good thing for others. It's really too bad they we're poachers -a non tribal and tribal member hunting together is a good thing when done legally. One of my hunting partner's is Ojibway.

 

[MrClyde]

All I got to say is that I think that anybody who poaches should get mandatory jail time and never be able to hunt in his or her lifeime ever again. I don't care what color you are or what your heritage is. Poachers suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Colville]

Hawk

First, the natives in question are different because they have no seasons, no limits, no GMU's, no sex/antler requirements. So compared to the rest of society their LEGAL behavior would be considered poaching.

Why haven't the nations in question established hard LIMITS and equally hard penalties? ie 1 elk/2deer per person/year? This isn't the 1800's they aren't subsisting on elk. When 3 guys have shot 7 this is long past subsistence no matter the time of day. The Q isn't a comparison of different kinds of poachers as their legal behavior is excessive behavior.

Elk weren't on the Yakima's diet historically. The logical solution would be to allow them to shoot every one they see on the nation and be subject to regular state law off of it, as "traditionally" they never hunted elk, anywhere.

As long as those with native blood continue to say that because it's "legal" no one should question it or that because it's a "right" its acceptable they'll be considered oblivious to the obvious.

Get a grip it's 2006. NO one needs 7 elk and 3 deer just to feed their families, who has that much freezer space? Don't take this annalogy out of it's specific context, but the reflection is similar to how many have seen muslims lately, I keep waiting and waiting to hear the outpooring of outrage and condemnation by the reasonalbe and moderate islamic people over the actions of others in the name of islam both here and abroad. What do people assume when popular and vehement condemnation doesn't come? Again the annalogy is about watching for the internal communities reaction to its own's behavior.

That's where this is. Show me the Yakima outrage. Please, show how they'll nail these guys, how they are dead serious about wildlife protection and how on the Yakima nation how these guys will be lambasted.

Point is they won't. That's not a reflection on guys who can only shoot 1 spike elk, during 8 days of the year, in select gmu's between dawn and dusk out of the rut and before the migration.

 

[nebo]

Things always seem very quiet about what happens to tribe members when a thing likes this happens. All pouchers should be treated the same no matter of race. There has been some good points made here.

 

[BuckGrunt]

i can't belive that ANYONE would be apart of such B.S. and to all no matter what you think it's not an indian thing it's a human thing.....It just goes to show you the class of some of the people we all hunt with!!!!!!!!!!

 

[boneaddict]

Back to the bigot calling.....
my point of this post was to again show how crazy this is. I hope they hang all three, but they won't. I bet the white guy gets it more just because he has more laws to follow. Colville says it all. Why is it OK to be able to shoot 8 elk and leave seven out in the sticks (oh yeah they said they were going to pick them up later) (course they also said they shot three deer) anyhow. Why is it ok for three guys or two indians to shoot that many animals that weren't even around when their treaty was signed? The ONLY LAW they broke was spotlighting????are you kidding me. How many is too many? What if every sould from Toppenish came up on the winter range and started shooting? Its crazy that this is allowed. When is legislation going to start. I used to drive up this road to take pictures, but after the last big incident they locked the gate and that kept the indians from going in there and slaughtering them because they had to walk. This is just CRAZY! I know there are bad apples in every bunch and there are lots of whites that poach, but why do we tolerate this abuse of resource? Where isthe self governing of these soveirgn nations?

 

[Hornseeker]

Colville did say it all...with a some "taste" too...good job.

 

[couesbitten]

Okay, this is going to be a long response.

I'm going to have to disagree somewhat with BuckGrunt. Yes, all races of people do and have poached. But, when you are part of a "Sovereign Nation", a "Proud People", and are not always subject to the "White Man's" laws, because of a treaty that you can hide behind, you are more likely to break the laws that you don't agree with, especially if you know from past experiences of your own or others, that you are only going to get a slap on the wrist, if anything. I have said it before, and o_m_o_t_h's said it here, that if they want to utilize their treaty rights,and hunt off of the reservation, then they must use hand made bows and arrows, with stone arrowheads. If they want to use modern firearms, they can follow our laws, bag limits, etc.

What is unfortunate, is that this whole subject is just a symptom of the much larger problem. The Native Americans use what was done to them 100's of years ago as an excuse to continue to hate, disagree with, and fight against the White Man's modern world that exists outside of the reservation. That is why you see so much poverty, unemployment, etc. on many or most of the reservations around the country. The rest of the world has moved on, and many of those on the reservations are falling further and further behind.

This is the worlds greatest country, and there are opportunities out there for every person, regardless of race, to achieve all that they are physically/mentally able as long as they put in the effort.

I don't think that any of these posts have anything to do with bigotry, as Hawkk33, would like everyone to believe, but are more an example of the frustration that many of us feel in regards to this subject.

Scott

 

[Shane]

I agree with Hawk33 on one thing and that is there are poachers in every race. The difference is some races can get away with it and some can't. The problem is not whites are more ethical as a race, or indians are all poachers but that they do not get punished for this type of behavior. I know lots of white guys that if given the chance to hunt with a rifle in the late season without bag limits would do just what these guys did. But they can't without getting in trouble and it is not tolerated by the majority. Indians on the other hand can do it without punishment and most tribal members would allow the guys to go unpunished. Do not say this is not true because it happens every year over and over and over. This post and others like it, just show the frustration and helplessness that most feel because they cannot do anything about it. Poachers are poachers and all should get the book thrown at them.
Shane

 

[old_man_of_the_hills]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-01-06 AT 00:53AM (MST)[p]This is a different day and age, and things accepted years ago are no longer accepted. People also do things for different reasons now. My grandfather killed over 100 elk back in the old days, party hunting. I'm not excusing his actions in anyway, but that was how it was back then and I doubt that anybody who had a grandfather or father or uncle that hunted back then can say that they did not hunt that way...but times are different now. Party hunting and poaching fed many families during the depression in the West, and of all types of poaching, doing it for food is the most respectable. The natives had their ways too, but again, things are different now. Just because a law says that something is ok (or wrong, for that matter), it doesn't mean that it is. I doubt if the ancestors(white or native) would approve of the above actions, even if they didn't include a spotlight...

 

[supersider34]

I hear more frustration than anything else. Not bigotry or racism. Good and bad in every ethnic group.
But I am not here to judge anything except what is legal. I dont agree with alot of laws out there but if it is legal then there is nothing to do unless the laws where changed.
Here is an example of the frustration I hear.
Sounds to me alot of people disagree with the Native Americans rights to hunt with no limits on there take limits. I personally dont agree with them because have seen some ways that show it is more against the system and to show they can and will do it. Not saying all do it but like all races they do. I have seen pics of trucks with 7-8 monster bucks in the back of trucks with 2 guys in the truck and its there right to hunt for food for there families. I always figured a doe or any deer that is seen would feed any family. Not just 180+ bucks.
But here is my example I was talking about......
I have read history stories of the white man back in the old days that went out and slaughtered buffalo herds by the hundreds and maybe thousands in a day. Only to take the hides off the buffalo for sale. Not much meat was taken if any. Whites thought it was legal and it obviously was as no one was arrested or went to jail for it. These hunters did it tomake money to feed there families or just for themselves because they can and it was legal.
Here is the same frustration. Wonder how the Native Americans felt to see there whole food source slaughtered laying to waste out on the plains. Did they feel the same way as alot of people today with the way the hunting laws are. Did they feel the same frustration as alot of hunters do today? The waste and wanton of a game animals.
This is an example of what I think all feel here.
Before anything is thrown at me is I am very good friends of alot of Native Americans and alot of them feel the same way and like was stated above is there are bad apples in every race. Kids grandfather is Native American and he strongly disagrees with the laws that are set and should be adjusted as he sees the recklessness of some others using the laws to do as they please. But its just a few not everyone that do this.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Hawkk33]

I never said it was ok. I vehemently oppose any abuse to wildlife at any level by any person. Search my posts and you will see just that stance.

"Where is the outrage" that is a good point. Until tribes can corral their own disrepectful poaching members posts like this will occur. "Subsistence" hunting should be limited to female of the species otherwise your just trophy hunting IMO. I also think rut hunts on winter ranges or any hunts on winter ranges should be stopped.

Anyhow, I have said it all along. You all elect congressmen, it is time to bend and ear or two. Step up and get this on the forefront of their radar.

 

[boneaddict]

Well said folks. ALL very good points!

 

[Vek]

I just skimmed the thread - it reads like the dozens of others on Natives' rights to fish and wildlife in Washington State. Whitey's problem in WA is frustration. Maybe I'm wrong, but whitey cannot enforce tribal fish catch in salt or fresh. Tribal fish catch is tallied and reported by tribal fish cops. It's a one-way street. Trust but verify, and whitey can't verify. This is wrong and must be changed, with a shared resource.

With game, I have no idea how the hell these abuses happen. No active enforcement off tribal land by the tribes. Tribe members subject to vague "usual and accustomed" rules for harvest and location (coastal tribes hunting winter range east of the cascades). Limited enforcement effort by whitey during typical times of tribal abuse (late season / winter range hunting). No rules put in place by the tribes to protect the desirable animals (better meat on cows than on a truckbed load of big bulls). It's the lack of policing that hacks whitey off. Tribes in general won't self-police, both officially (police and/or tribal game cop) and unofficially (other tribe members).

So to the tribes and the responsible tribal members participating in this thread - please take action and actively police your own. Do not recommend talking to the congresssheep. No professional politician will touch this issue, ever. Media spin will influence the votes of the urban majority. It would be wasted breath and effort by whitey. Whitey's hands are tied. Only if the tribes propose a reasonable solution can anything happen.

Suggestions for a reasonable solution:

1. WDFW to establish legitimate subsistence hunting rules for natives. Something like one deer doe and one elk cow per household per year. Household defined as any family with minor children, or any male or female older than 60. Subsistence seasons will be very liberal. I forget what they call it in AK (proxy?), but able-bodied adults may hunt to fill the subsistence needs of elderly or infirmed households (again, one deer doe and one elk cow per household). This will be tricky to enforce, and the practice must be documented and enforced rigorously. Proxy hunters may not kill their own animals and their proxy animals in the same trip.

2. Outside of subsistence rules, tribe members may hunt off the reservation under the same rules as whitey, period.

3. Off-reservation, tribe members are subject to all normal WA hunting rules regarding retrieving game, and whitey may enforce this.

Step up to the plate, tribes. Tell me this isn't reasonable. Maybe there is some wiggle on the "household" definition for subsistence hunting, but that's it. If you want whitey off your back and the "hating" to stop, then do something. Otherwise, WA whiteys will resent you. Period.

-Jerry

 

[logger]

I think alot has changed since the treatys were signed. two indians did't have the means to kill 7 elk in a matter of minutes in the old days. working in the timber industry I see this yearround both east and west side not always tribes but probaly 85% of what i see is. I had a indian rigging crew when we logged in naches these guy sold most of there elk to the mexicans they never did put their enrollment numbers on the tribal harvest I seen that myself. I'm with vek thats the fairest propasal that I ever heard.

 

[AKCATHUNTER]

I agree with most of these posts but I have one question. Why did these poachers just get turned over to the tribe. Why couldn't the game wardens nail them for all the laws, not in the treaties, that were broken? The laws in question are shooting off of a road, hunting w/an artificial light, waste of a game animal, maybe even having a loaded gun in a vehicle. I am sure there were others also. This indian poaching problem is getting worse every year. Until a tribal official grows some balls it will never be solved.
AKCAT

 

[Bornforhorns]

Be Realistic.

Do their actions feel wrong? Yes!

Are they wrong for what they did? Yes!

Should elk be removed as source of sustince because their not indigenous to our state? Yes!

Prosecute them all the same...poaching is poaching.

Wildlife management does more and spends more on our game than it ever has in history...for what?...this! White Nonwhite who cares!!!!

If it doesn't feel right, look right...it probably isn't.

 

[kingfish]

RE: Be Realistic.

All poaching should be a felony!!! I believe it's state by state. It should be a felony in every state for all who live in that state under that states laws. If your convicted you will never be able to legally own another firearm, or vote, I don't care what color , what tribe, what religion you are if you poach you should pay and pay BIG!!!!