More Utah tag opportunities

[Bugleguy75]

I've been following this forum for a number of years and have noticed that discussions on odds of drawing a tag and point creep have become more common. Many members are expressing dissatisfaction with the current draw system, the lack of animals, size of antlers etc.
About 30 years ago in MN we had many of the same issues with our deer herd (low numbers). It got to the point where deer seasons were actually closed for a year or two. The DNR came back with a different season structure that took some of the pressure off the deer and slowly the numbers and opportunities increased. Instead of a free for all shoot anything they broke the season into two weekends- you choose which. The first hunt was 2 days and the second hunt was 4 days long. People chose each hunt about equally. The DNR also went to a draw on does. The state was broke into about 50 areas and doe permit numbers in each unit were set by biologists. Sounds complicated but after a year people came to accept it. It was so successful in bringing back deer numbers that insurance companies complained about deer car collisions. After a while some areas allowed shooting 5 does.
This brings me to Utah. I spend a lot of time in the elk Units each fall helping with hunts and am familiar with dissatisfaction on hunt opportunities, point creep etc. It took one of our hunters 23 yrs to draw. I've often thought the different hunts were too long and then thought about the MN model. Would it be possible to break the hunts up and get more hunters in the field? Examples would be to make the early archery 10 days, then a break, and then the final early archery rut hunt 5 days. The early rifle could be 3 days and the second early rifle could be 4 days. Muzzle loader and mid season hunts could be broke up the same way. Game numbers would have to be monitored to make sure animals aren't over harvested. I suspect harvest success may be a bit lower because more hunters would be in the field but the same number of elk would be killed and hunters would have an opportunity to hunt much more often.
I also would close the spike season for elk. After a year or two the DNR could allow more branch antlered permits. Avg. bull age class would be lower but trophy hunters could still hunt for bulls in an older age class that each unit should still hold and hunters who are satisfied with a smaller bull should also be happy.
These ideas probably would need tweaking and many hunters would be unhappy with the change to their traditional hunts. Be easy on me boys with your responses, I'm just trying to stimulate some conversation for ideas that will get more hunters in the field. Forgive me for being a nonresident. I still love being in Utah each fall.

 

[woodruffhunter]

Not to be too negative, but have 3 day hunts and more of them would not be what I would want, personally.
I hate doe hunts and would never support them.
I do like your idea for the elimination of spike hunts.
Although there was success for Minnesota's whitetail management, I doubt using the same management practices would work for our mule deer. Maybe I’m wrong.
In my opinion, adding more hunts to an already over pressured herd(s) would fail.
You asked my opinion and I’m giving it.

As far as my solutions go, I’m not sure what will work. The bottom line in my opinion is that there is so much pressure on our herds currently, and also a bad winter kill from last year, it might be years before we see any progress. I hope I am wrong…..

And 99% of people are dissatisfied. Most of us want to shoot 200” bucks and 350” bulls every year. We don’t not want to see any other hunters either……

 

[elkassassin]

So?

I Take It you Don't Like Continuous Hunting From Mid-August Through January?

 

[Deerlove]

I love the Spike hunt it keeps 15K Hunters out of my way

 

[middlefork]

I've always wondered how the experts learned to hunt without being able to hunt.

 

[El_Matador]

There is definitely some merit to your ideas. The problem with Utah however is they are not looking for any ideas to change the current system. It is working exactly as it was designed so there is no reason to change anything major. The point creep and high demand for LE tags creates a market for those tags. The higher the demand, the higher the price people will pay. Since the law makers are directly connected to the money from auctioned tags and private CWMU permits its in their best interest to keep demand high. When the biologists, the hunting public, and the RAC councils all agree that more permits should be issued, the wildlife board usually does nothing or reduces permits to benefit themselves, the landowners, and the guide industry. All because of the money flow.

General season tags can't be milked for cash like the LE tags. So there is some effort to appease the masses on those hunts.

 

[2lumpy]

I've been following this forum for a number of years and have noticed that discussions on odds of drawing a tag and point creep have become more common. Many members are expressing dissatisfaction with the current draw system, the lack of animals, size of antlers etc.
About 30 years ago in MN we had many of the same issues with our deer herd (low numbers). It got to the point where deer seasons were actually closed for a year or two. The DNR came back with a different season structure that took some of the pressure off the deer and slowly the numbers and opportunities increased. Instead of a free for all shoot anything they broke the season into two weekends- you choose which. The first hunt was 2 days and the second hunt was 4 days long. People chose each hunt about equally. The DNR also went to a draw on does. The state was broke into about 50 areas and doe permit numbers in each unit were set by biologists. Sounds complicated but after a year people came to accept it. It was so successful in bringing back deer numbers that insurance companies complained about deer car collisions. After a while some areas allowed shooting 5 does.
This brings me to Utah. I spend a lot of time in the elk Units each fall helping with hunts and am familiar with dissatisfaction on hunt opportunities, point creep etc. It took one of our hunters 23 yrs to draw. I've often thought the different hunts were too long and then thought about the MN model. Would it be possible to break the hunts up and get more hunters in the field? Examples would be to make the early archery 10 days, then a break, and then the final early archery rut hunt 5 days. The early rifle could be 3 days and the second early rifle could be 4 days. Muzzle loader and mid season hunts could be broke up the same way. Game numbers would have to be monitored to make sure animals aren't over harvested. I suspect harvest success may be a bit lower because more hunters would be in the field but the same number of elk would be killed and hunters would have an opportunity to hunt much more often.
I also would close the spike season for elk. After a year or two the DNR could allow more branch antlered permits. Avg. bull age class would be lower but trophy hunters could still hunt for bulls in an older age class that each unit should still hold and hunters who are satisfied with a smaller bull should also be happy.
These ideas probably would need tweaking and many hunters would be unhappy with the change to their traditional hunts. Be easy on me boys with your responses, I'm just trying to stimulate some conversation for ideas that will get more hunters in the field. Forgive me for being a nonresident. I still love being in Utah each fall.

I watched the whitetail States rise out of the ashes so I know exactly what you all did to rejuvenate your herds. Yes, as you said, to the point the auto insurance companies began to pressure your States into reducing your populations again.

So….. Utah could fix this mess, if it wanted to, but it doesn’t. Until they do, except to see it continue to ebb slowly downward until some single event wipes the majority of our mule deer, like it did our pleasant hunting, 30 years ago.

Private land will very soon hold our only sustainable mule deer populations. Your States are primarily privately owned, Utah is 69% government owned……. the bureaucrats have us by the short hair.

 

[Bugleguy75]

Not to be too negative, but have 3 day hunts and more of them would not be what I would want, personally.
I hate doe hunts and would never support them.
I do like your idea for the elimination of spike hunts.
Although there was success for Minnesota's whitetail management, I doubt using the same management practices would work for our mule deer. Maybe I’m wrong.
In my opinion, adding more hunts to an already over pressured herd(s) would fail.
You asked my opinion and I’m giving it.

As far as my solutions go, I’m not sure what will work. The bottom line in my opinion is that there is so much pressure on our herds currently, and also a bad winter kill from last year, it might be years before we see any progress. I hope I am wrong…..

And 99% of people are dissatisfied. Most of us want to shoot 200” bucks and 350” bulls every year. We don’t not want to see any other hunters either……

Thanks for the reply woodruff,
Like you I prefer a longer 10 day hunt but I'm not sure that model is sustainable with the number of hunters seeking tags. Offering shorter hunts where you are limited to a 3, 4 or 5 day hunt may not be the answer either but it would allow more tag opportunities. You mentioned you don't like seeing other hunters- I don't like seeing other hunters either flooding the canyon I'm in. After the first day though it seems like we see a lot fewer hunters, those hills can be brutal Lol. I've eaten a couple of pretty good tags holding out for a stud but I've also noticed many other hunters who came with ideas of a 350" bull in their head after 3 days want to shoot any bull over 280". I'm not sure what changes to the system can be made to satisfy the need for more tag opportunities.

 

[Elkrunning-Scared]

How about this! Let’s see what the harvest success is on the early and the Mid season hunt with the pressure.

Then I will throw my 2 cents in.

 

[elkassassin]

Our DWR Did Shorten The Early LE RIFLE Elk Hunt Season To a 5 Day Hunt!

Then Added Another LE Hunt With A Longer Season!

JFP!

 

[Bux n Dux]

As long as public land guiding is allowed in Utah, $FW has the DWR and other groups by the balls and the sportsmen continue to let it happen, you’ll never see the elimination of our current management structure, which is essentially a trophy hunting model. Eliminate the spike and general hunts, you’ll eliminate about all that is left for most hunters to participate in on a yearly basis.

Axe everyone from the WB, the higher ups at the DWR, tell $FW to pound sand, kill every “committee” and replace it with people who care about wildlife and their health and give zero cares about social management and things might change. Of course other things would also have to take place at the same time to see true results, but that’s about what it will take. Utah will never see that.

 

[El_Matador]

Back when Jonathan Johnson was running for governor in 2016 I arranged a meeting with him and a few of the members here on MM. After discussing many of these issues we all agreed the best solution would be to completely replace the wildlife board. He even asked which of us would be up for the job. Unfortunately he was not elected and nothing changed. But I do believe with the right governor in place we could see some big changes happen. All we need is someone who doesn't take bribes, so that should be pretty easy to find

 

[2lumpy]

Many, not all, sportsmen complain that politics has no place being involved in wildlife but they forgets all wildlife/ big game is managed by a bureaucracy, which is only controlled by politicians. Other than politician they are a law unto themselves and they answer to no one and account to no one but the Governor and the Legislature.

The only way Colorado, Utah or any other western State is going right this ship is at the ballot box and as it sets right now Colorado is screwed, blued and tattooed.

But……. Thanks for giving it a go and please keep trying.

 

[cannonball]

The Wildlife Board as well as the Utah DWR is like a Sloth Group, you can hardly see them move.

 

[cannonball]

They have some good ideas, then table them for another day.

 

[elkassassin]

That Was Directed To The OP woodruff!

But I Like Your Input!

Correct

 

[woodruffhunter]

Sorry Bess, my mistake.

I would like to see our herds get a few days of rest!!

 

[elkassassin]

You're Fine woodruff!

I Totally Agree With You!

Sorry Bess, my mistake.

I would like to see our herds get a few days of rest!!