New 2010-2014 UDWR Hunts......

Y

YoungCountry

Guest
I see the UDWR trying to get more changes for the Hunts/Hunt dates.
I see the Archery Hunts on LE elk units nudging later,slowly but surely.
I see there might be an early & late general deer season,we don't have enough pressure on our deer herds already?
From mid-August continuous & overlapped hunts as always.
One thing they ain't showing you is the cow & spike & other misc hunts throwed in there on top of that.
In 35 years now we have witnessed the worst Deer management upon the face of the earth & it ain't getting any better.
The UDWR knew our deer herds were & have been in trouble,did they cut back on permit numbers?No,they cut a few days off some of the general archery hunts (after they sold all the permits) & now they think they fixed everything,they got all their money & I guess some people think by cutting season a few days short the UDWR have fixed everything.
I'll tell you what's even worse than that,I've talked to alot of hunters in the field & just about all of them have 'tudes',one joker told me flat out he's taking a big deer no matter if he has to poach it in December,now thats quite an attitude,but I don't believe UDWR is helping any of the 'attitudes'?
We need change alright,but we need smart changes!
By God it's time for change that'll make a difference in a Positive way!
We've went from one of the best deer herds in the west to one of the worst & the changes made over the last 35 years have been nothing more than a slap in our faces.
Let's hear it boys & girls?

we are YoungCountry, we like all kinds
of music and people, 'cause we do draw some lines'
no our hair is not orange,we don't wear chains and spikes
but we know how to have fun come Saturday night
 
We have got some of the best hunting opportunities that there has ever been. I found an old proclamation yesterday. Looking through it I had forgotten how much more opportunity than we have now then we had back then. I was able to go on a Once in a lifetime hunt that wasn't even offered 10 years ago. As for the Mule Deer, there numbers have dropped pretty much everywhere due to a lot of factors. Whats your fix for all of this?
 
I absolutly love the new dates!

And I to have almost every years proclamations back 20 years.
All the new opportunity is truly amazing.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-11-09 AT 10:38AM (MST)[p]Biggest thing I noticed with any of the proposals is, muzzleloader deer hunters are getting screwed with a capital "F"!..

I also read comments on another forum where people were saying Utah is finally moving toward managing deer like Colorado with split seasons. Utah has 5 units and Colorado has how many?....

Five day hunts in this state really tick me off too! If an area has numbers low enough it warrants a shortened season, shut the SOB down for a few years! Problem is, the state isn't willing to lose the revenue, and even when they do close areas, they give way too many permits when it reopens! WAFJ!
 
Those proposed dates are good for elk, but hunting a struggling deer herd for 3 weeks straight seems like a train wreck in the making. Micro-management has not helped Nevada's struggling herd, nor has it helped Arizona's struggling herd. New Mexico's herd has not seen dramatic improvment with micromanagement. But Wyoming's herd is on the rebound, and they hunt more liberally than Utah, with regional or no restrictions. Colorado hunts mule deer like Utah hunts elk. Utah can't have Utah's elk quality and Colorado's deer quality.
 
2 point- you seem to confuse quality with quantity, micro managment has greatly helped the quality in Nevada, and probably the quantity somewhat, that state has other issues influencing overall deer numbers. Habitat conditions and weather are one issue, and regulating hunting pressure is another. In some places, Colorados deer herds are rebounding just like Wyomings do after a tough winter, but Colorado now manages deer like Nevada and that will be reflected in the amount of mature animals over time. Utah has both habitat problems and hunting pressure problems. Unless Utah micro manages deer like Colo. or Nevada, mature bucks will always be rare. Habitat conditions and favorable weather are the keys to herd size, and micro managment can only help on that issue so much
 
I'll add to that by saying, Utah needs to do something about cats or the deer herds will never greatly improve! Doesn't take a rocket scientist to notice the correlation between the drastic decline in deer numbers and the time they went limited quota on cats! Throw in a few hard winters and they don't stand a chance!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-11-09 AT 01:06PM (MST)[p]>I see the UDWR trying to
>get more changes for the
>Hunts/Hunt dates.
>I see the Archery Hunts on
>LE elk units nudging later,slowly
>but surely.
>I see there might be an
>early & late general deer
>season,we don't have enough pressure
>on our deer herds already?

Youngcountry I will strongly disagree with your statements and here is why.

lets start off with the two deer seasons you are talking about. Having two deer seasons is just like Colorado's three deer seasons except we will only have two. hunting the deer like this does a few things.

1. it helps the deer escape and not run into the hords of other hunters.

2. It helps because you dont have so many flush dogs so to speak to keep the deer moving all day long like you do on opening morning deer hunt.

3. After the deer get hunted like this for a few days it will only get harder for the hunter because the deer adapt and become more nocturnal in their ways. So seeing a deer later in the year will be harder.

4. The deer will also be pushed so far away from the roads and into deep canyons the drive by hunters wont have a chance. which is a good thing because they are the ones that are taking most of the younger bucks.

I only wish they would take away 10,000 rifle tags and give them to muzzy guys so they can some what restrict the range and allow a few more animals to escape..

>witnessed the worst Deer management
>upon the face of the
>earth & it ain't getting
>any better.

I disagree

>The UDWR knew our deer herds
>were & have been in
>trouble,did they cut back on
>permit numbers?No,they cut a few
>days off some of the
>general archery hunts (after they
>sold all the permits) &
>now they think they fixed
>everything,they got all their money
>& I guess some people
>think by cutting season a
>few days short the UDWR
>have fixed everything.
>I'll tell you what's even worse
>than that,I've talked to alot
>of hunters in the field
>& just about all of
>them have 'tudes',one joker told
>me flat out he's taking
>a big deer no matter
>if he has to poach
>it in December,now thats quite
>an attitude,but I don't believe
>UDWR is helping any of
>the 'attitudes'?

so whats your plan. that will help relieve the bonus point butt plug without killing all the top end bulls. Whats your plan for managing the deer so we all can enjoy hunting them without killing every thing in sight.

>We need change alright,but we need
>smart changes!
>By God it's time for change
>that'll make a difference in
>a Positive way!
>We've went from one of the
>best deer herds in the
>west to one of the
>worst & the changes made
>over the last 35 years
>have been nothing more than
>a slap in our faces.
>

You want change well you are getting one of the best proposals in a long time coming. the state is starting to manage the deer more like Colorado which has the best deer herd in the country. We should flat out go to their system and dump ours theirs works so use it.

The state is leaning more towards Arizona elk plan which is the best for producing top end bulls "twice as many record book bulls have come from Arizona then Utah with half the elk as Utah." they do this while still giving opportunity to more Arizona residents. Utah has twice as many bulls as Arizona and if they went to Arizona's system Utah's elk hunting would be even better.

the proposal is a win win!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Piper, you seem to confuse an increase in mature bucks with the health of a deer herd. Sure, when hunter opportunity is cut drastically then we see increases in mature bucks. Nevada, while having an increase in mature bucks and a decrease in hunter opportunity, has not had overall herd growth.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-11-09 AT 01:20PM (MST)[p]>I'll add to that by saying,
>Utah needs to do something
>about cats or the deer
>herds will never greatly improve!
>Doesn't take a rocket scientist
>to notice the correlation between
>the drastic decline in deer
>numbers and the time they
>went limited quota on cats!
>Throw in a few hard
>winters and they don't stand
>a chance!


I would agree with you some what on the cat issue. To me it seems like the trophy cat hunting areas are all on general deer units. having high populations of trophy cats means way more female, cubs and mid sized males.

throw in the high bear numbers which seem to keep getting worse on the news every year. They used to be able to say it was a drought and that was why they all live in town. I think the bear numbers are way higher then the division even thinks. In all the years growing up I never saw bears. Now it seems like if i go a season with out even seeing a couple I am disappointed.

Then throw in all the coyotes we have and you have a real deer killing machine.

Here is where I will add to your predator list. I think most of the killing is coming from. Automobiles and 4-wheelers. It seems we now have truck size trails on every ridge. way to easy access for the ultimate predator "the long range magnum snipers"

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
well put sw, guys micro management controls the amount of hunting pressure on the deer herds. the problem you guys have now is everytime a few descent deer get killed in a certain spot the next year 10x as many hunters show up and over hunt an area.
 
2 point- there is evidence that an increase in mature bucks leads to an increase in overall herd health. Colorados deer numbers have increased dramaticly since they went to micro managment, thats not the whole reason Im sure, but its interesting to note. Colorado has 3 to 4 seperate rifle seasons on top of muzzleloader and archery. If no more deer were killed during the season, why would a longer hunt period be such a train wreck? also I don't see where Colorados deer are managed anything like Utahs limited entry bull hunts, except that they are both on a limited quota.
 
SW,
Don't get me started on the cat issue. All of you people that don't hunt them, but THINK you know how many there are really get me riled. There are plenty of cat hunters that will buy you steak dinners for a fresh cat track to run. YOU got very lucky and killed one fairly quick. Just because it happened once doesn't mean it happens all the time. You buy the gas and we'll see how many tracks you can find for me to run... deal?
Utah has definate issues with deer numbers but lets look at other things like: Why did the DWR increase the bookcliff deer numbers by 100 this year? And that doesn't include the increase the Tribe gets as a result. Look at the number of hunters in the feild. Utah needs to cut back on permits....yes its going to cut down on opportunity for a while, but with roadkill, over issue of tags and depredation "Mostly Coyotes, but yes lions kill too" utah has to do something different. How come we always blame predators when in reality we all know there's too dang many hunters in the field for the deer numbers we currently have?
 
Increasing mature bucks may help a deer herd to a point, if that herd didn't have any mature bucks before. But, having excess mature bucks doesn't grow more deer. Bucks compete (and win) with does and fawns for limited resources, and bucks don't have babies. Colorado has about 600,000 deer and about 100,000 buck tags each year. Utah has about 300,000 deer and gives about 100,000 buck tags each year. That is why quality is higher in CO than in UT, and why CO can offer late season hunts and still produce good bucks. Changing season dates and/or making smaller units will not have a significant effect on quality. Pretty much the only way to increase quality is to reduce harvest by reducing tag numbers.

The different proposed season dates don't have much of biological basis to them, they are primarily social/political. It is possible that having an earlier deer season will avoid a rifle hunt like we had in 2004 when all the bucks were on the winter range. But, a season like that only comes along every once in a while. On the flip side, some bucks will be more vulnerable during an earlier rifle season.

I agree that once again, muzz hunters are taking it in the shorts.

Personally, for deer I would rather see us keep our current season structure and unit boundaries and increase our post-season buck to doe ratio objectives to 20-25 from 15, and then adjust permits accordingly after each year.

Dax
 
Cat buddie
I am not against cats at all. In my post i mearly reference them because I was some what agreeing with some of what the other gentlmen was saying. I however probably did a bad job in explaining it and made myself look like a cat/predator rapist.

lets try this again.
I think the cat/bear numbers are up in general deer units because they manage them in those units for better quality. better quality means more cats/bears. having higher numbers of cats in areas where most people "general tag holders" is going to have a conflict cause there isn't enough deer to go around for the ultimate predator "man with his long range sniper"

I love cat hunting! It is one of the best hunts around! I am jealous that I cant chase them like you do every year. The area I hunt has loads of predators because you cant hunt them with dogs. "Water shed" These coyotes/bears/cats can live long healthy lives. I love seeing them! They can eat all the deer they want and it doesn't seem to effect the deer heard. This is why at the end of my last post I believe man with his roads on every ridge and long range weapon is the main reason the deer are declining in the rest of the general areas around the state. They simply don't have any place to hide.

I would have had a blast hunting cats with you I would have also paid all your gas and some if you would have taken me out but my schedule didn't seem to work with yours.

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
sw,
You usually make sense,but show me all the the quality herd management since 1972 please?
Sure the UDWR has improved certain units after completely shootin the units out.
All I'm saying is we need drastic change that will improve the quality of our herds.
If you think hunting big game non-stop & overlapped from mid-august through January is proper management you're way blinder than I ever figured you were.
I have a question for you sw?
They claimed the cats were eating all the deer in the Book Cliffs,they shot em out,the Quotas haven't been filled for several years & 70% of the cats taken are not mature,the deer numbers haven't changed much,ya there is deer but not much change after thinning the cats out,WTF sw?
90% of you boys don't have a clue to what kinda damage the coyotes in this state are doing.
So why haven't the Deer in the Book Cliffs ever came back like they were in the late 60's & early 70's sw?


we are YoungCountry, we like all kinds
of music and people, 'cause we do draw some lines'
no our hair is not orange,we don't wear chains and spikes
but we know how to have fun come Saturday night
 
The actual numbers for 2009:

colorado, 475,000 mule deer, 44,000 buck tags, all weapons.

utah, 310,000 mule deer, 93,000 buck tags, not sure if that includes archery.

oregon, 206,000 mule deer, 56,000 rifle buck tags, plus unlimited archery tags.

Logically, either Colorado is cheating hunters out of thousands of legitimate tags, or Utah and Oregon are over hunting their populations. In five years, we will know the answer. My prediction, Colorado will have 600,000+ mule deer in 5 years, Utah less than 300,000, Oregon 170,000.

Research done on multiple species makes it clear that one of the the keys to rebuilding a population is having sufficient numbers of mature males (3.5 years of age and older) to breed the females during the first estrus cycle. Oregon and Utah will not see significant increases in their overall mule deer populations until they manage for higher numbers of mature bucks in the post-hunt population. The only way to do that is to reduce harvest, ie, issue less tags.

Scoutdog
 
Scoutdog,
I just nominated you in to the Utah Deer committee.
The UDWR has a hard time managing Deer past age 3.5,it's a known fact for many years.
We got too many Tards proud to say:"I filled my tag"
Wow that impresses me when somebody braggs on killing a "milk on the lip" buck.


we are YoungCountry, we like all kinds
of music and people, 'cause we do draw some lines'
no our hair is not orange,we don't wear chains and spikes
but we know how to have fun come Saturday night
 
Two things
1- I believe the coyotes are doing far more damage to the deer herds than the Lions are.
2- I am with sw on the multiple seasons, it will take some of the pressure of "opening weekend" off the deer. Less people in the field per hunt=more places for deer to hide.
I know the dwr needs to make some changes, I dont know what those changes need to be, but the quality is lacking.
 
All I can say is "good luck deer".

The whole month of October will be a total slaughter of deer. Rifle deer, muzz deer, rifle deer. That's too bad they don't get somewhat of a break before the rutt. There wont be much energy left for the winter months. Just my opinion.

And honestly, who is going to buy a Muzz tag???
 
Us ML guys would be getting the royal hose job if these dates take place.

Give me a break. They want to put us right inbetween the rifle hunts. If they go to those dates I will pick my bow back up and or switch back to rifle.
 
and you know's whats crazy about CO? They have up to 6 deer season with 2 of those season in the rut with a rifle. A resident can hunt deer every year and every 2 years in an awesome unit. Even with limited tags there is still plenty of oppurtunity! UT would be smart to look at CO..............won't happen though!
 
So what are they planning to do with the Dedicated Hunters? Let them hunt for 2 straight months? Muzzleloaders sure get screwed. They should be later like it used to be.
 
So who planned this clusterf&*K out. If this plan goes through the DWR should be charged with harassing wildlife. The muzzy deer hunt starts the day after a general deer rifle hunt ends, WTF.

I think there's going to be a lynch mob at the next round of RAC meetings and rightfully so. Something has got to be done in Utah to stop four months of nonstop hunting. I would rather see less tags, shorter hunts and higher tag prices if it meant quality herds.
 
Isn't everyone an expert??

I've got an idea, if we want to let everyone hunt and not kill too many animals at the same time...We need to go bow hunting!

Sell one more archery tag and you just sold one less rifle tag and very likely saved the state a deer killed in the process.

State gets the money (which they need to manage the deer, contrary to what some of you may believe), and an extra deer. Cool huh!

Rifle hunters would sure cry a lot, but hey, they are the same ones whining about the lack of deer. Maybe a sacrifice other than "shut the damn hunt down" is in order.

Yep, you may have to admit that it is worthwhile to give more opportunities to bowhunters, even if you're not one, in order to better manage our resources. Besides, we all have the option to hunt with a bow if we so choose. No one is left out. Pick up a bow fellas and we all win. We get to hunt, the deer get to live (at least more of them do), and we still raise money to fund the management of the resource. Wow!

We need to promote an increase in archery hunting wherever possible, and a good start would be to stop limiting archery deer permit numbers.

In the end, this is a damn tough issue, and all us jokers with all the answers may want to walk a mile in the shoes of the guys trying to make these decisions before we throw them under the bus. I sure wouldn't want to be the guy trying to make us all happy.

Just my $0.02.
 
More bowhunters would give more opportunity with the same harvest but just imagine this scenario. The majority of rifle hunters shoot their gun one or two times a year before hunting season. These are not dedicated hunters for the most part. That commitment does not transfer well to bowhunting. Imagine the amount of wounded deer running around. Bowhunting takes dedication. Successful bowhunting takes a large amount of ethics and self-restraint.

I think pretty much everyone that committed to hunting already hunts with a bow. Including many that aren't. I used to sell archery equipment and set-up bows. There are already way to many knuckleheads buying a bow a week before the hunt. These people have no business bowhunting because it results in a much higher percentage of lost and wounded animals.

If there was a serious shooting competency requirement before being issued a license, I would be all for it. The state will never do that because it would require too much effort.

I'm not bashing bowhunting, I love to bowhunt. I think those shooting skill requirements should be across the board, rifle, muzzy and archery (just so you don't think I'm picking on one particular discipline).
 
Hunting deer and elk at the same time for 27 straight days will be devastating to the herds. I am not sure why this plan is even being considered.

I sure hope this doesn't happen.
 
Can someone post a link. Is this a proposal or are these dates set? Are they really going to have LE archery and muzzy elk at the same time, that does not make sense.
 
Once again I think Daxter is on. It would be nice to see the buck to doe ratios go up another 5 (if the reduction in tags and days weren't decreased too much.)

Once again, there are a ton of posts where people think that bucks are the element of the population that have babies. We aren't going to decimate the future deer herd by killing bucks.

Getting fawn survival rates up would help the total deer population far more than cutting buck tags.
 
Looks like if you dont kill your bull early on the LE elk archery your going to have company?? At least you get longer to hunt in the rut. I dont agree with muzzy deer hunt being AFTER the first deer hunt??
 
Scoutdog said:

"The actual numbers for 2009:
colorado, 475,000 mule deer, 44,000 buck tags, all weapons.

utah, 310,000 mule deer, 93,000 buck tags, not sure if that includes archery.

oregon, 206,000 mule deer, 56,000 rifle buck tags, plus unlimited archery tags."

That means that Colorado has 50% more deer than Utah and issues only half the tags. Let's all get together and discuss why Colorado has better herds...hmmmm.

Since we all know it is $$$ to DWR. Charge all the residents $70, instead of $35, and cut the tag numbers in half. The hunting gets better and it is no-net-loss for the one thing that DWR actually cares about, $$$$.

Then to balance opportunity v. quality; if you hunt deer in a given year, you lose your points. The point creep drops dramatically, and with the better general season hunts, it may make sense for people to not wait 295 years for a Henry's deer tag and hunt general bucks every year.

Next question?

Grizzly
 
I take back my comment, dates are fine, but putting the general elk AND deer in a once in a lifetime type hunt is not cool.
 
The rifle deer hunt is the only hunt with a date set by state legislation.

Has the law been changed to allow for the two rifle hunts?
 
>The rifle deer hunt is the
>only hunt with a date
>set by state legislation.
>
>Has the law been changed to
>allow for the two rifle
>hunts?

the law was changed

4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-09 AT 08:48PM (MST)[p]>More bowhunters would give more opportunity
>with the same harvest but
>just imagine this scenario. The
>majority of rifle hunters shoot
>their gun one or two
>times a year before hunting
>season. These are not dedicated
>hunters for the most part.
>That commitment does not transfer
>well to bowhunting. Imagine the
>amount of wounded deer running
>around. Bowhunting takes dedication. Successful
>bowhunting takes a large amount
>of ethics and self-restraint.

Please dont take this as a bash to you on my part sometimes I come off strong and that is not what I am trying to do here. Im just presenting my experiences with your topic.

The Wasatch front is a gleaming example of why I would disagree with your statement. The fact that the front is hunted for 4 months straight and is also hunted in the rut is another example. The Wasatch front has a 35-40 buck to doe ratio and the herd grows out of control unless we have a winter kill like we had last year. Do deer get wounded? Sure once in a while! They also get wounded on the rifle hunts and the muzzy hunts. The difference is you have to get a lot closer to the animal before you can wound it. The front is an example of how you can hunt for months on end have loads of people crammed in with an over the counter tag and it works. The ones that loose are the ones that wont evolve and put their rifle down. every year more and more rifle hunters are making the switch. I see it with the draw odds. I keep getting passed up cause a rifle hunter cashes in his points. The general archery tags keep selling out faster every year cause the rifle guys that don't draw their first choice still want to hunt and I'm fine with that. opportunity is great. Ive been converted. If I could only hunt for 1 out of 3 years I would give it up and just go fishing.
>
>I think pretty much everyone that
>committed to hunting already hunts
>with a bow. Including many
>that aren't. I used to
>sell archery equipment and set-up
>bows. There are already way
>to many knuckleheads buying a
>bow a week before the
>hunt. These people have no
>business bowhunting because it results
>in a much higher percentage
>of lost and wounded animals.

while this may be true on opening day of the hunt, every day the hunt continues the deer are learning fast to stay away from the roads and become almost impossible to kill with a bow. thus living another year.
>
>
>If there was a serious shooting
>competency requirement before being issued
>a license, I would be
>all for it. The state
>will never do that because
>it would require too much
>effort.

I would agree with you on having a shooting competency test on any weapon. If you cant pass it with your rifle, bow, or knife you cant hunt.
>
>I'm not bashing bowhunting, I love
>to bowhunt. I think those
>shooting skill requirements should be
>across the board, rifle, muzzy
>and archery (just so you
>don't think I'm picking on
>one particular discipline).

I agree


4a7d1f93337c7fd7.jpg

Archery is a year round commitment!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-09 AT 08:48PM (MST)[p]>sw,
>You usually make sense,but show me
>all the the quality herd
>management since 1972 please?

To start off we probably only had 150 elk in utah back then.

>Sure the UDWR has improved certain
>units after completely shootin the
>units out.
>All I'm saying is we need
>drastic change that will improve
>the quality of our herds.

I think drastic change is coming

>
>If you think hunting big game
>non-stop & overlapped from mid-august
>through January is proper management
>you're way blinder than I
>ever figured you were.

I am not suggesting they hunt for that long i would like to see them hunt for two weeks back to back with a rifle hunt you pick which week you want to hunt and apply for it in the draw. then follow it up with a week muzzy hunt. Keep all these guys as far away from november as possible. I dont think deer or elk need to be hunted in the rut with a high percentage weapon.

>I have a question for you
>sw?
>They claimed the cats were eating
>all the deer in the
>Book Cliffs,they shot em out,the
>Quotas haven't been filled for
>several years & 70% of
>the cats taken are not
>mature,the deer numbers haven't changed
>much,ya there is deer but
>not much change after thinning
>the cats out,WTF sw?

I said in a post earlier that I am not so sure the cats are the problem in a LE area. those cats are hunted way harder. The quality of the cat sucks cause the numbers are down. Some people have to shoot a female just to fill their tag. The cats are few and far between on the LE units. Now it is a different story on the general deer units. these units are managed for better age class of cat. In those units there is to much competition between humans and any predator. So predators will get the blame. The area I hunt has loads of cats we see them once in a while. I always see their tracks but they don't really do anything to the deer herd. Cause it keeps growing every year. The only thing that effects that herd is winter kill.

>90% of you boys don't have
>a clue to what kinda
>damage the coyotes in this
>state are doing.

I believe If I were to hammer any predator for killing more than its share of deer it would be the coyote. I shoot every one I can. I hunt them in the spring also. I don't give a rip about coyote pelts.

>So why haven't the Deer in
>the Book Cliffs ever came
>back like they were in
>the late 60's & early
>70's sw?

maybe it is cheat grass, maybe it is some other habitat issue. but what I do know is every time I go out there I want a tag in that unit. If that unit gets some moisture to grow the horns like it did this year, it can compete with just about any unit in the state for quality despite what people say about 3x4, and crab claws. Same with the elk! I should have burned my archery deer points this year out there horn growth was fantastic for all species.
 
After comparing the two plans that on the table I want option 2. That is because I do not want the muzzle loader elk hunters slaying my elk the same day that I am trying to stick one with an arrow. I would accept option 1 (which is the better option all around) if the bow hunters get to start before the muzzle loaders come in. Say they start the Saturday before giving them four days to seal the deal or compete. From what I see they start and end the same day. Is that right?

I agree that other than that option 1 is the better option because it opens up the hunting season for more days. In option 2 the muzzle loader LE elk hunters get stuck in November with the late rifle LE elk hunters (cutting down their amount of time to hunt). But in Option 1 the Archery LE elk hunters get to compete with the muzzle buster boys.

The general deer hunt from the 5-31 of October should be fun, and a lot of people should get their bucks. I think that the muzzle loader general deer is in a good place after the first rifle, because they migrate then (at least on the Zion unit).


Dillon ( I love archery )

Are they changing the dates on the OIL hunts?
 
The problem is, they're trying to schedule everything around the early rifle hunt. That's their focus, rifle in the rut. Then adding in archery, muzzy, and youth, all of which want the rut too, makes it pretty tough. Somebody is going to get moved out, just a matter of which group.
 
Why in the world would they have the General muzzleloader deer hunt after the first rifle hunt? And at the same time as the General season any weapon spike elk hunt? The muzzleloader hunters are getting the short end of this deal.
 
What utahheadgear said is right on! I also like the idea of passing some sort of shooting test for all weapons. It just sounds pretty tough logistically. But the fact will always remain that animals will get wounded and not recovered (with all weapons). I also like how sw buckmaster is at least bringing some logical points to the table and is articulating his ideas.
Since you were the one that started this post youngcountry, I still haven't heard any of your ideas of what you would do if you were in the "hot seat." It's real easy to sit back in hind sight, and bash what others do. Kind of reminds me of all the "armchair" politicians we watch on tv sunday mornings. If what the dwr is proposing is so bad then what will, in your opinion, bring the the deer quality/quantity back to the glorious 60s & 70s? If you're gonna bash the dwr for their mis-management of the deer herd (and wildlife in general), then you better have a better plan. I'd love to hear it-specifics....and then let everyone stomp all over your ideas.
Is it a perfect system?-of course not, but it seems whatever the dwr does is a big fat failure to alot of people. Quit bitching and hunt! Looking at some of the amazing animals on these forums is what keeps me in the game. Hopefully from time to time it can be my grinning face with a trophy animal and story to share posted up on mm. By the way I don't work for the dwr so don't ask.
I like the proposed changes and changed dates. How about a late (november), limited entry, archery deer, rut hunt for all LE & General units? Increased trophy opportunity, water down the bonus point system a bit, won't slaughter all the big bucks...just a few pluses...negatives??
 
Archery is the greatest management tool available. Although it is not a popular idea...if we had more bowhunters we would have more deer. Plain and simple sucess rates are much lower and overhunting is irrelevant. Bowhunters can not possibly hunt out the deer herd. To many variables and to few opportunities. If more rifle guys converted or at least agreed to bowhunt 2 out of 3 years there would be this "drastic" change everyone is looking for!

Jason Yates
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Archery is a good managment tool, but you can't just take away rifle hunts and make everything archery. Tons of dads want to take kids out for the first time and get them a shot at a buck, and usually the weapon of choice is a rifle. They have a better success rate with a rifle. Also, you have those older guys that still enjoy hunting, but can't really bowhunt. There are many good reasons to keep the rifle hunts around. Many people just enjoy hunting with a rifle period. I love to bow hunt, but I also love shooting my rifle. There needs to be a good balance of all of it. You can't say you want archery equipment for all hunts, just because you are an archer. You need to think of everyone else too buddy.
 
Your point is valid, but I would say alot more damage can be done, and is done by "undedicated" (or whatevery you want to call them) guys with a rifle in their hands than they could do with a bow.

There will always be the types that don't put in the effort to become proficient with whatever weapon they choose. If that weapon is a bow, or a gun, it doesn't make much difference in my mind.
 
Read carefully. I did not say it was a popular decision I just said it would work. As far as doing away with rifle hunts I never said that at all. I just said more archery hunts equals more deer. Limiting rifle hunts to where a guy hunts every 2 or 3 years would help a ton. If you are worried about the youth let them do management rifle hunts. Older guys would be happy to hunt a big deer with a rifle every other year rather than small or no deer every year. I am not saying everyone is going to agree with the idea but it is hard to disagree with it. If everyone bought in it would work and deer problems would fix themselves. I think if they opened up the entire state (minus limited entry units) to archery from aug-november 30th just like the extended archery areas and then made guys choose between a 3-4 month archery season or a 1-2 week rifle season alot of guys would choose archery and then you could make all the rifle hunts draw with good odds and bigger deer. I realize many will not like this idea and it is ONLY MY OPINION but it is hard to argue the power of archery hunting as a deer management tool. I think it should be looked at strongly by the DWR but more importantly by the average hunter.

Jason Yates
Basin Archery Shop
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This debate is completely missing the point without addressing the larger issue of REDUCING TAG NUMBERS!!!!!!!!!!! Colorado must be doing something right. Look at the quality that state produces all the while still having units that residents can draw every year if they HAVE to kill a buck every year. Maybe Utah could learn a little something from Colorado which adjusts tag number in smaller micro-managed units depending on deer numbers, winter kill, etc. But this will never happen because money is the ONLY thing that matters to DWR. Changing season dates will in fact hurt in the long run if they don't address the larger issue. Pushing deer around for more days can't help.

Besides, this is a non issue anyway. I thought the 5 year plan for deer was in place now for 4 more years. All because the geniuses that brought our deer situation to its' current status didn't think a change was needed when the plan got drafted last year. All the geniuses could think to do was to add a management buck hunt to the Henry's, Pansaugaunt. Oh and limit archers in Southern region on the opener.

Apparently, this problem is all in our heads.
 
I'll miss the general rifle hunt the way it is right now. Will anyone be interested in the second rifle hunt?

Should be easier for fish and game to monitor the hunts the way they are stacking the deer and elk together.
 
HOLY SH!T WHAT A CLUSTER F!!!!!

Why in the hell would they have the archery and muzzy elk hunts on the same days, that has got to be the stupidest thing I have seen, why cant they make things simple.

Heres an Idea, put the LE rifle hunt so it starts in OCTOBER why the hell wouldnt they.

Ok fine you have to have the rifle hunt in the rut, then combine the muzzy and rifle hunt, or start the archery hunt on sept. 1 and have it end when it dose and keep the muzzy hunt where it is giveing the archery hunters some time in the hills without a bunch of loud bangs going off.

Also they should limit the amount of early rifle elk tags to 20-35% of what they are now.


And yes the muzzy deer hunters are getting screwed.



Jake H. MM Member since 1999.
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
Why reduce numbers when you can accomplish the same goal of reviving the deer populations while still letting hunters hunt....with a bow???

Admit it guys. It would work. And I'm not even talking about limiting rifle hunts, I'm talking about making changes that ENTICE people to archery hunt, and then to NOT limit archery permits so much.
 
I listen to the archery guys cry about everything every year, and you want to put more of these clowns in the field?

and before you ask, I was bow hunting before it was cool. back when we did it for better seasons and less people. that is the reason it became popular. now we got all the "pro staff" crowd out and their gonna change the world cause they have been shooting with their city league at foam targets, now they are gonna take on hunting. makes me want to go shoot something in the face every time I hear here guys preaching archery is the savior of hunting.

I get an instant case of nausea because of this crowd every time I hear the word "archery". thanks for that, it used to be something I enjoyed.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-17-09 AT 07:04PM (MST)[p]Hey REDDOG

Go shoot yourself in the face with that post pal! Aren't you supposed to be out with rest of the pumkins (state) blownin legs off from 2 canyons away, then racing to be the first one to the swiss cheesed, bloody pulp, only to go to fists over who killed the poor thing! Talk about nausea!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-18-09 AT 07:42PM (MST)[p]OHHH the antis just love this $hit dont they... keep dogging the other guy he aint a hunter he hunts with a _____ or a ___ and wounds every animal on the mountain or the next mountain over...

I will say no mater what the fish and game do in Utah it will be wrong in most peoples eyes as it is different and we dont know what is going on... because we are all Biologists and we know whats the best thing to do but less then 1% go to the rack meetings to let them know what needs to be done... Yes I am just as guilty as the next guy...
 
Great post REDDOG. You hit the nail on the head. Many archers are becoming far too much like the elitist fly fishing crowd who frown on some guy fishing with a worm or a lure. I used to LOVE to fly fish but havent done it for a few years because of this mentality. I also like to hunt archery, but I cant stand to be associated with the elitist archery types either. Lets face it, many archers shoot as many in the guts that get away as they actually recover, so maybe we ought to limit archery hunters to recover the deer herd. Let the skilled marksmen with a rifle make a one shot kill on one deer instead of having bloated up carcasses being consumed by maggots with an arrow hole in the guts.

Bottom line is you need to lower tag numbers if you want to make a difference.

If you dont want to lower tags, then one hunt any weapon is in order. Open it for 7 days and use a bow, muzzleloader, a rifle, a spear, a knife, a slingshot, or whatever you personally deem as "sportsman like" and go make yourself happy.
 
The argument that archers gut shoot a lot of deer and ruin the deer population does not hold water. Again look at the Wasatch extended archery area. No rifle hunting but EXTREME pressure by archery hunters, yet still great buck to doe ratio and great quality mule deer. Archers just can't kill as many deer as rifle hunters it is impossible. Archery only areas manage themseleves.
That being said there is no elitist mentality from me. I want better opportunities for everyone and I never said anything bad about rifle hunters. In fact for the first time in a while I went on a General rifle deer hunt up in Idaho last weekend and shot a 177 3/8 muley with a 8.5" inline cheater. It was a blast. I prefer archery but I have nothing against rifle hunting. I was just pointing out that archery is a good management tool and could be used to increase quality and numbers for archers, rifle hunters, and muzzy guys.
Everytime this subject comes up certain rifle hunters go up in arms but if they would really think about it, it could work to their advantage as well.


Jason Yates
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I like the LE and archery dates, but I thing there are some problems that will definitely arise out of this proposal for the general rifle and muzzleloader deer hunts. I put some thought into it and here is what I came up with that in my opinion is a compromise that I think most could live with.

Still keep 3 "General" deer seasons in October but with modifications:

General Early Season Any weapon deer: Oct. 3-11 Limited Combo tag given only to those who apply for a general rifle deer and elk tag and (use deer pref points the same as the other general deer tags) Take 10-12% of the quota for each region for this hunt. The northern region already has something like this anyway, just expand it statewide. It will take about 10,000 of the 81,000 deer hunters out of pool. They will already be out there hunting elk anyway so it would not increase the crowds during this time. It's limited quota because I think the bucks will not be as wary because they haven't been pushed since the archery hunt. It will definitely give greater hunter opportunity though.

General Late Season Any Weapon Deer: Oct. 12-20 Same regional quota's minus the 10-12% going to the early season and whatever is taken out for the muzzleloader deer. Moving the any weapon date earlier than what its normally been in the past will put the hunt into a little better weather(no major snow falls) most likely and some leaves will still be on the trees which will give the deer a little better chance of surviving.

General Muzzleloader Deer: Oct. 21-29 I think this hunt will take a few hunters out of the any weapon pool as I think it would have the most desirable hunt dates. It's still a little early for the rut but the chance of pre-rut activity and a snow storm are more likely giving this "primitive" weapon hunter a better chance, but will give the deer a better chance too compared to an any weapon hunt during these dates. Taken out of the same pool with no limits other than the regional quotas, similar to what it is now.

I like keeping the dates each year the same regardless of where they fall during the week, except Sunday of course.

One more thing: Only allow the dedicated hunters to hunt 1 season opener of their choice during their 3 season adventure. I know they got the shaft having to do 40 hours now, but I think we can all agree the deer herds are struggling and we can all give a little something to help out.
 
The Utah DWR has proposals for dates on their website. They are proposing 2 general deer seasons, LE Muzzy hunters will have 5 days to fill their tag....after that they share the season with rifle hunters...Go look at it and see what you think. I hate to see anymore deer hunts...crap there's no deer already, and now they are proposing a late Oct. rifle deer hunt after a early Oct. rifle deer hunt. They are going to opportunity these herds into extinction. It also looks as though they are combining deer/elk together? Look at their dates and see what you think
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-22-09 AT 09:39PM (MST)[p]Without micro management, multi rifle seasons are foolish, imo.
 
This is a step in the right direction as far as the Elk hunts are concerned, I wish they would move the rifle dates back even further to October 1. As for the two Deer seasons, I believe they are just trying to enhance the quality of the Deer hunt, by spreading the Deer hunters out so there are not as many hunters afield at the same time, somewhat like Colorado does.

Its not perfect but @ least they are trying, attend your local RAC meetings to voice your opinion or send a E-mail if you can't attend.
 
so bess & wiley will be able to hunt deer with their favorite weapons at the same time?
that ought to be a fuster cluck worth watching.......

great post/pic, thanks for sharing

JB
497fc2397b939f19.jpg
 

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