New Arizona regs for 2005...No more online...No more credit cards....etc

[buglinst]

Does anyone think this is intended to make nonresident hunters balk at applying? A manual application process and send ALL your INFLATED nonresident application money(5 species). I do think all the out of state outfitter BS has gone to far. The money involved is getting ridiculous. The Arizona "Haves" are acting just like crybabies. The non resident "You have to set a direct percentage of the tag quotas to us" is BS also. I don't know how you guys feel about all this but it seems really simple to me.

ie. Everyone that wants to apply for unit 9 bull, puts their amount of draw chances into a hat, then randomly gets pulled until all availiable tags are pulled. How tough is that? No resident/non resident BS.

On the non res paying these incredibly outrageous fees: decide on a fair amount and make both equal. Tell me why nonres fees are expenentially more?



Anyone want to have a discussion?

 

[fin little]

buglist, long time no read. You ever draw your Pauns tag? I think residents should have an advantage. I dont like the use of money to gain the advantage. It should have been an honest 10% set aside for nonresidents and none of this crap would have happened. Now we will all live with the consequences. Please dont mention 9, its been shot out since the 90s. wink.

 

[BOHNTR]

Well first off, welcome to MonsterMuleys. For your first post (if in fact it is), it appears you may be after a desired reaction from folks here, which you will probably get.

I for one have absolutely no problem with what Arizona has done and I am a non-resident. They simply went back to how they used to receive applications just a few years ago. It should actually increase your odds of being drawn, as they require your money at the time of application. Sort of separates the men from the boys if you will.

As for the price differences, I feel non-residents should pay more. However, I would like to see it a bit more closer than what is proposed. I don't mind 4-5 times more, but not 10-15.

As for equal draw......absolutley not. I think 10-15% is a fair allotment for non-residents. Of course, who am I? Just an Ol' BOHNTR who doesn't mind waiting for a premium tag.

BOHNTR )))---------->

 

[Boskee]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-05 AT 10:39PM (MST)[p]Buglinst, You make a very uncompelling argument about the reasons you feel you should be able to hunt in AZ. with the same opportunity as a resident. When you can make an accounting to all of us in the west that shows you have made the same sacrifices and monetary committment as we taxpayers and residents have then we can talk. If it's equality you want pilgrim let's play by those points exactly! It appears at this time you seem to be woefully short of measuring up on your side of the ledger. What does your state offer to us in return? Equal opportunity at how many of the same species? Hmmmmm. Yep I can see that the only thing you seem to be concerned about is your right to hunt and it's very clear that you have little to no regard about anything but that point! Why don't you take the time to cultivate equal hunting opportunity in your state and then we can have a meaningful discussion where both sides can benefit equally in about 15-20 years. Maybe you need to reread your post because it appears to me the only one with tears in his eyes appears to be you,....Equality is a two way street and it appears you only have one lane on that road your traveling and you've got no way to return!

 

[782warbird]

Buglinst do you help manage Arizona's wildlife like alot of us do. (probably not)
Whats fair is fair
We believe that 10% is a fair number that we can live with
Do your homework some states don't even alow out of state applicants for there premium species. Arizona doesn't discriminate but we will take your money for those premium tags
Lets talk about our tags where can you go and harvest some of the largest Mule Deer and Elk around not to mention sheep.
Why don't you go to oregon or Arkansaw and shoot small deer if thats what you want to do.
Arizona spends alot of money and time to get the deer and elk herds the way they are and we expect whats fair is fair.
Equal oportunity is not fair.
The manual draw is only a temporally thing it has nothing to do with Arizona hoping less applicants apply, With the equal opportunity this year we will probably see record # of applicants this year
Next year Arizona will be raising its prices across the board residents and non residents and no non residents tag prices are not going to be at the maximum.
Arizona is providing a premium and non premium price for all applicants including residents.
If you want to have a premium hunt you have to pay a premiun price.
The best thing that will be happening to sportsman is when the REID bill gets past into law. And you bet it will pass

 

[Boskee]

Buglinst, Since it's equality you want maybe we should look at it in another way. Since you inferred and a fellow poster validated that you may have hunted in our fine unit 9 we count that as your opportunity to hunt in our fine state. Now we go forward and let all the other fine nonresidents (a mere few hundred thousand souls) come out here to hunt that have yet to recieve a tag, have their opportunity to hunt in some progressive fashion. Remember all they have to do is pay to hunt and we have never had an issue selling any tags period. When all of them have had the same opportunity as you,then it will be your turn again. According to a little quick math that should preclude you from being able to hunt out here again in your lifetime even if you're 15 months old!

You see, all you bring to the equation is a little money and I'm reasonably certain that AZ would be just fine without yours! I as a resident would much rather see somebody who's never had the opportunity to hunt have his chance since we the residents in AZ do have some ownership of the animals and by law will have some say in how they are harvested. I can assure you that argument, will stand up in a court of law because it is being administered in the least discriminatory fashion which was the judges intent with his ruling. Be careful what you wish for when you really have minimal input in the matter, because equality is a funny thing it can work for you or against you.

You have shown little to no regard for me or my fellow residents rights to hunt with your viewpoint and we may just see fit to return the favor. The only difference here is that we can change the rules in a much more effective fashion to protect every nonresident's right to hunt not just yours.
Now there's a little something for you to discuss since you feel we are being so unfair. Believe me, there's a million nonresidents out there that would love to see something like this enacted so their chances to hunt in our state and the other western states are improved.

Now close your eyes and imagine that!

 

[fin little]

For the record, Buglinst used to post on the bowsite. Thats what I meant with long time no read. I dont know if he's hunted 9 or not. Again my position is for the major advantage to be held for residents. I just hate to see money used to gain that advantage. Arizona has been a hold out state when it comes to turning big game hunting into big business. Price increases will be the first step down a slippery road. Look for landowner permits, ranching for wildlife and obscene numbers of conservation permits in the future. Someone said if the nonresidents are willing to buy Az is willing to sell. So true in a free market economy. Its just hard to swallow when the product is the publics wildlife. You raise the prices high enough and the bulk of the thousands waiting thier turn will drop out allowing a few the opportunity. Its where the world of hunting is headed. Many are cheering it on. Many are filled with dread.

 

[Boskee]

Fin, for the record I bid you no ill will and for the most part I have been one of the strongest proponets of nonresident rights to hunt in this state over the years. It really amazes me when one of these fair minded individuals steps forth and thinks that our rights to hunt should be compromised equally so that he can have more opportunity, when what can he offer in return. Nothing usually. The thing they fail to realize is that we have sacrificed much to make our hunting as good as it is. There are two sides to every story and if he spent the last 20-30 years out here not hunting because he can't get drawn he would have a much clearer idea of the magnatude of that of which I speak. There ain't no free lunch here and we all must wait our turn to hunt. Those that are concerned only about their opportunity to hunt are the reason this has happened to us all and need not apply. All of us have biological clocks ticking and our opportunity is diminishing every day. That's life. It's a free country he can move here earn less and enjoy the fruits of his labor and not hunt for years at a time and then he may fully understand why his equality idea is a one sided crock! He'll be singing a different tune within 3-4 years I bet! Funny how you have a different perspective on the matter when you put it to practical application on a daily basis.

 

[buglinst]

Boskee, Warbird,
Thanks for your rebuttal.
First let me tell you about my area. I live in an area that is abundant in agriculture,( melons, rice, avacados, artichokes, mandarins, grapes, etc..). Speaking of grapes, we make some of the best wines in the world around here and enough rice to feed many countries. Come see our coastline or come eat our cheese.
I welcome you to come hunt or fish around here but then again with what you have in Az you may not want to hunt here. Thats why I would like to hunt area 9(ha ha). What we do have to offer is fishing. If you are into that. The salmon, steelhead, halibut, panfish, stripped bass, albacore are very plentifull and excellent to catch. And the black bass fishing, which I happen to find very enjoyable,is argueably the best in the country.
Let me ask you this. How long would you or any of your neibors last if everything around you or your house cost ten to fifteen times the cost of what you pay now? You are sitting at your desk reading this reply on you pc. Where did your pc come from? Arizona? I think not. How about your desk? Your TV? Your lumber for your house(maybe, not likely)? How about truck outside? Did that cost fifteen times because it was not produced inside Arizona borders?
My point is, your game is the same a our wines, floridas oranges, or Ben Wallaces(Detroit Pistons)cadilac. These resources come from all over and you are not being discriminated against because you happen to want something that is produced outside your state. Please, don't try and tell me the majority of the sportsman in Arizona are clearing brush and digging tanks. It sounds as if you are and there should be an involved sportsman bonus point or something.
As far as taxes go. Are you kidding me? I obviously can't speak for you but I can assure you I pay my fair share, plus. When and if I do get a tag, I will spend money in Arizona(gas, groceries, some motel, laundry, emergency trips to the archery shop)
Truth is, what I want is simple. A fair chance to come hunt and not get gouged when I apply. I do feel residents should have a better chance to draw(percentage of the tag allotment). I think non res should get UP TO not neccesarily 20%. Randomly draw them out. I'm not into sueing anyone or keeping anyone out of the field. Do unto others and all that.

let me have it

Steve

 

[buglinst]

fin little,
No Pauns tag yet. But can't wait. Good to see discussions are alive and well here. I keep applying and hoping. Tell me what you have been up to?
[email protected]

have a good one

Steve

 

[buglinst]

One more thing....Reid act

I just read about it on another thread. Sounds great to me. Keeping the feds out of fish and game regulation per state sounds logical and right. It is all about how the laws come down from the top(being the state gov). Still the decision makers can't act like "haves" and need to regulate fairly. Of course my fairly and your fairly seem to differ. Although I don't think we are that far apart.

Steve

 

[Ed]

Every state charges more for nonresidents to hunt. Check out Wyoming, NM, Utah, Colorado. People are mad because AZ has been fairly inexpensive for years for non residents to hunt. Now, we are just on par with other states high fees. If I remember correctly Wyoming and New Mexico charge significantly more for certain bull elk hunts over others. Bottom line, if it's not in your budget don't apply.

 

[Boskee]

Steve that's a little different tune than the one you started with and I think you'll find it will be better recieved by the individuals in the states that have the animals to hunt than your previous tact. Telling us you want equal opportunity when you bring little to the table is not going to endear your viewpoint to the residents of the western states. 20% to nonresidents for a tag allocation is too high, a figure of 15% is more realistic and seems reasonable in a separate set aside.

Your points about how much more things cost today is well taken and if you factor in inflation and such the tag prices today are still a bargain. That $18,000.00 4x4 pick up of yesterday will set you back upwards of $30,000.00 in todays world. A house here that used to cost $100,000.00 will cost upwards of $300,000.00. I can plainly see just how little those items have been impacted. These increases have only been over the last 7-10 years on the truck and last 3-5 years on the house. As to the cost issue for tags, for some strange reason quite a few of the western states didn't realize just how valuable those animals were until USO spent $350,000.00 to prove to us they were indeed worth more than we were charging and are now a commerce item as well. So on that point I suggest you contact USO and express your opinion on that issue straight to them. We all loved a bargain as well. That now seems to be a thing of the past. Funny how one little misdirected lawsuit could effect so many people in a negative manner isn't it. Boy, they really did us all a favor didn't they.........

 

[AZBuckSnort]

Keep in mind that this is a supply and demand issue when it comes to AZ's big game permits. When and if and until folks, resident and nonresident alike, have to stand in line to have the opportunity to purchase a bottle of California wine, or put their boat on the Feather to drift for steelhead, or draw a permit to spread a towel on the sands of Huntington State Beach, you really cannot compare one regions' dissimilar resources with anothers. Sticking to discussions about elk tags vs. elk tags and muley tags vs. muley tags will keep the debate real.

AZ should have offered the court an alternate plan, any alternate plan for that matter, that would have demonstrated a willingness to implement a lesser discriminatory manner of distributing permits than the "up to 10%" procedure. If an alternate plan would have been offered by the State I believe the judge would have went for it and we wouldn't be debating this issue now. Say a plan like this: setaside 15% of the permits into a pool that only NR competed for; this would have been an over 100% increase in the number of permits NR traditionally drew historically. It would have been less discriminatory, demonstrated a true willingness to issue more tags to NR applicants, and would have been more palpable to the residents of AZ. Certainly we would expect reasonable, gradual license & permit fee increases over time and they would have been met with grudging acceptance. The cost of everything is going up, ask your wives when they come home from the grocery store!

Take a look at the deer and elk fees charged by all the states bordering AZ. We've been a bargain for years and are only now talking about getting in line with what our neighbors are collecting for the same species. Those really high tag fees many keep shouting about are ceilings, limits, maximums that will take years to reach if they are ever even implemented at all.

Lots of folks are crying for "equality". What does than mean? Do we want the Feds to step in and issue a federal hunting license and open up our state game and fish agencies to domination by the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service so we can have the same hunting opportunity from state to state? What happens when the resource it gone? Oh well, elk hunting used to be really awesome in AZ but now it's the land of the spike bull and soon will go the way of the buffalo? Is that what we want?

I can hunt in a premium unit in Utah IF I draw a tag that will likely take me 10+ years to draw. You can hunt in AZ for your mega bull elk but it will likely take you the same 10+ years to draw, where's the inequity in that? While you can also apply for two kinds of deer, two kinds of sheep, antelope, buffalo, and turkey while trying to get that elk tag in AZ, I CANNOT apply for any more than one limited entry specie in Utah, is that "equitable"? The bottomline is each state has unique issues when it comes to how it decides to manage its' resources. We all lived with the various plans in place and played the games we had to to try and draw a tag. What changed it all? One outfit that claimed its' opportunity to make money on the sale of antlers, ivories, hides, and meat was being restricted and they wanted to make more money.

Some people say it isn't about the money. They're wrong. It's always about the money.

 

[Gator]

The problem with the HIGHER TAG prices for the Average Joe is that is what USO wants to push out the average guy to make room for there high dollar clients. Az is playing right into their plan: I bet USO applys just as many clients this year as the have in the past, but average hunters will be not putting in for their tags(I still will) so now USO has a Better chance to draw tags for their clients.

What happens when the NR(due to Nr not applying) no longer carries the financial load for the F&G dept and they have to raise the tag fees for resident up to the NR fees, BOY I bet you can hear the hollering way over here. I just got another letter from USO, Telling me how great a job they are doing for me(kiss my A$$) I would love to know which F&G dept sold my name and address to this low life. Tell me why any F&G dept would crawl into bed with this Lowlife.

 

[gleninaz]

G&F departments in some states will sell the list or even give it out for free. I know an Alaskan guide that gets the list of license buyers to do mailings with. As for the cost you are correct in that Taulman loves the tag increases. Problem is that there are so few tags and so many hunters who have the money to pay that the average Joe withdrawing will have little or no impact on the sale of 100% of the NR tags. Hope SB339 gets passed. It will allow G&F to manage tags as they see fit and will stop the USO suits. Prices will not go down though. Too late to stop that and government agencies never give money back.

 

[Gator]

I don't know if they will still have a 100% sell-out,I see more not less lawsuits in the future But I know if the State thinks it can get more money by raising prices for NR, What makes you think they will stop with just NR,Now that they have those prices up there WHERE do you think they will get the next bit of money they will need in a couple of years.It's kind of like the gas thing, tell me why diesel is so high as it a by-product of making gas. Well the raise in resident tags will be a by-product of the raise in NR tags.
LET ME BE THE FIRST TO WELCOME YA ALL TO THE WORLD OF HIGH TAGS. LMAO Soon it will be all the same high prices for all residents and Non-residents.

 

[gleninaz]

Resident prices here are also going up and that is part of the USO reaction. You are right that we will all pay more but I don't think you will see any state with equal costs for res/NR. We won't see the increases until next year from what has been discussed and we still don't know how much they will be. The trophy rifle hunts are the ones that will jump the most and I bet they will still sell 100%.

 

[PleaseDear]

So if I'm reading this right...... for every species you apply for you have to include the hunting license fee 113.50 with each species-seperate-envelope..... ssoooooo for deer ya need 113.50 in that envelope with the deer tag fee and for elk a different 113.50 in that envelope with the elk tag fee and so forth???? Then ya get refunded for all the license fees 113.50 except one fee of 113.50..???

I don't have a problem now that I have been educated by the Azhunterswhocare Emails. I just missed the big clean-up project by one wknd when going down to visit my 'snowbird inlaws' in March.

Aint nothing cheap anymore........... 2.58 a gallon for gas in the truck..........

 

[Boskee]

I think that would be right unless you purchased your license before you made application and that way you could just input the number on all the applications. In any case it's my understanding that you will be credited back for the additional licenses you purchased at the time of application by the Game & Fish. They will send you the overpayment. Anybody feel free to correct me if this is incorrect. Hope this helps.