WTF? Has anybody else looked at the hunt recommendations yet? There is across the board tag increases for bull and cow hunts in 10. They have way too many tags in that unit now. I dont think I'll be hunting there any more. Theres maybe one or two good years left in that unit. I feel sorry for the NRs that have been saving points for so long wanting to hunt 10. It is going to be even more overrun than ever......but hey, we get "opportunity" right?
No more elk in 10?????
- Thread starter sremim
- Start date
Quest,
I agree the deer in 10 are bad too. I havent rifle hunted deer there in over 10 years. There are some monsters but very few and far between. It used to be an excellent deer unit. The late archery hunt can still be good in areas though.
As for the elk, every year there are fewer and fewer. Add up the number of tags of all the elk hunts. It is outrageous.
I agree the deer in 10 are bad too. I havent rifle hunted deer there in over 10 years. There are some monsters but very few and far between. It used to be an excellent deer unit. The late archery hunt can still be good in areas though.
As for the elk, every year there are fewer and fewer. Add up the number of tags of all the elk hunts. It is outrageous.
akamissedagain
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For several years the G&F has been trying to all but wipe out the elk in unit 10 because there is so much private land they are tired of getting lobbied for land owner tags.
Doubling the early rifle tags from 50 to 100 and increasing the archery bull tags by from 150 to 200 tags will make for tougher hunting and a less quality hunt in 10 if those numbers continue in the future. We'll just have to see how this effects the unit overtime.
billythekid
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LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-11 AT 09:52PM (MST)[p]i'll say it again b/c i can't resist. the azgfd are a bunch of jack asses. they can't even pull off managing one of the greatest elk resources sportsmen in the west have, elk in unit 10. it's not rocket science. but hey, like sremin said, "more opportunity."
ClarkW
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I think 10 has been the G&F's sacrificial lamb for a while now. They know it has a "legend" status and will draw in a lot of people (mainly NRs that think they are gauranteed a huge bull)if they can rid of the perception of you can never draw the tag. I don't feel they really care if the quality is there, they are willing to use it as a revenue maker. Unit 10 looses access every year and it is going to get worse with landowners realizing their are endless opportunities of "free" money with the windmill business getting so much govt. support. It will still hold some good animals, but hunters will be stacked on each other and looking over the fence to the game. They did this with the deer years ago, leaving it open for every OTC hunt there is and giving more tags than population.
muleymaniac
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LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-11 AT 01:42PM (MST)[p]
it doesnt matter which unit - G&F has systematically been killin off the elk herds by having so many cow tags - killing 500 cow elk in one yr means a decline of approx 10,000 elk within 5 yrs - think about ! do the numbers
all units accross the state have had way to may tags for cows the last 5 yrs - the days of big herds are gone in most of our lifetimes !
look at morman lake - it was nothing a few yrs ago to see 800- 1000 elk at any given day on the lake - this last yr the biggest herd was 400 or so
it doesnt matter which unit - G&F has systematically been killin off the elk herds by having so many cow tags - killing 500 cow elk in one yr means a decline of approx 10,000 elk within 5 yrs - think about ! do the numbers
all units accross the state have had way to may tags for cows the last 5 yrs - the days of big herds are gone in most of our lifetimes !
look at morman lake - it was nothing a few yrs ago to see 800- 1000 elk at any given day on the lake - this last yr the biggest herd was 400 or so
betterlucky
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"more opportunity." ......remember equals more money!!! AZGFD doesn't care anymore...all about the money, we are over hunting almost every unit for every species right now..Hopefully they will pull their heads out before they ruin it for our kids....Andy
DonMartin
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Easy boys..I too feel your frustration. I've been hunting Unit 10 since the 70's and I sure don't see the elk they claim are there.
A number of us went to the regional meeting here in Kingman and expressed our dismay at the thought that tags were going to be increased. Our collective opinion was that if anything, they should back off, especially on the cow hunts.
I have heard that through the efforts of the Arizona Elk Society we may NOT see such a huge jump in tags when it comes before the Commission.
I sure hope so, as Unit 10 is an awesome unit and is a venerable elk factory, much akin to Unit 6A.
Best advice is write to the Commission and/or got the meeting and express your feelings about the proposed increase.
Don Martin
AWO
A number of us went to the regional meeting here in Kingman and expressed our dismay at the thought that tags were going to be increased. Our collective opinion was that if anything, they should back off, especially on the cow hunts.
I have heard that through the efforts of the Arizona Elk Society we may NOT see such a huge jump in tags when it comes before the Commission.
I sure hope so, as Unit 10 is an awesome unit and is a venerable elk factory, much akin to Unit 6A.
Best advice is write to the Commission and/or got the meeting and express your feelings about the proposed increase.
Don Martin
AWO
Utah400Elk
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Don I sent you a PM
DonMartin
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Utah400Elk: I didn't get any message from you...
Guys, I attended a meeting to day with the Region III Game Specialist and the Regional Supervisor Bob Posey came in and joined our conversation.
Pending Commission approval, looks like the early tags in 10 will go up to 75, not 100 as proposed.
Late season tags will go from 550 to 575, not 600 as proposed.
Early cow tags drop a little while late cow tags go up some.
G&F maintains that they are showing an increase in the elk population in Unit 10. This is based on their surveys.
It is obvious a very complicated situation, and while I personally have not seen an increase in elk in Unit 10, that's just me. But I have heard many of you that are out there a lot also feel the same way.
I say this, if you're not happy with the situation, then by all means show up at the Commission meeting and express your views.
I know that Arizona Elk Society will be there and they will address the Commission on this proposal. Maybe even some of the members of this group will also be there to express their own personal opinions.
I can't be there as I'll be on a desert bighorn sheep hunt in Unit 15D.
I'll say this. I believe that the original recommendations were based on what the Dept. has as far as survey data is concerned. There is no malice, no conspiracy to wipe out all the elk in Unit 10.
Here is something else to consider, and htis is just my opinion. Remember if they let the elk population grow like crazy, then they will have to answer to the Navajo Nation and the lessee of the cow operation.
The Boquillas is 750,000 acres, but 500,000 of that is PRIVATE land owned by the tribe. So we got to be careful what we ask for...what happens if it gets closed cause the tribe thinks the elk population is detrimental to their grazing operation?
Just keep that in mind..
Good luck at the meeting.
Don Martin
AWO
Guys, I attended a meeting to day with the Region III Game Specialist and the Regional Supervisor Bob Posey came in and joined our conversation.
Pending Commission approval, looks like the early tags in 10 will go up to 75, not 100 as proposed.
Late season tags will go from 550 to 575, not 600 as proposed.
Early cow tags drop a little while late cow tags go up some.
G&F maintains that they are showing an increase in the elk population in Unit 10. This is based on their surveys.
It is obvious a very complicated situation, and while I personally have not seen an increase in elk in Unit 10, that's just me. But I have heard many of you that are out there a lot also feel the same way.
I say this, if you're not happy with the situation, then by all means show up at the Commission meeting and express your views.
I know that Arizona Elk Society will be there and they will address the Commission on this proposal. Maybe even some of the members of this group will also be there to express their own personal opinions.
I can't be there as I'll be on a desert bighorn sheep hunt in Unit 15D.
I'll say this. I believe that the original recommendations were based on what the Dept. has as far as survey data is concerned. There is no malice, no conspiracy to wipe out all the elk in Unit 10.
Here is something else to consider, and htis is just my opinion. Remember if they let the elk population grow like crazy, then they will have to answer to the Navajo Nation and the lessee of the cow operation.
The Boquillas is 750,000 acres, but 500,000 of that is PRIVATE land owned by the tribe. So we got to be careful what we ask for...what happens if it gets closed cause the tribe thinks the elk population is detrimental to their grazing operation?
Just keep that in mind..
Good luck at the meeting.
Don Martin
AWO
califhuntn
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sremim
PM sent.
JR
PM sent.
JR
Utah400Elk
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Don PM sent.
Utah400Elk I got a pm from you and responded.
Don,
I agree with a lot of what you say. Maybe the elk population has increased to justify the tag numbers. But even before the increases this year they have too many tags. Keep in mind this is just my opinion based on how many elk I've seen the past couple years compared 4-5 years ago. They are getting harder to find for a lot of people who don't regularly hunt the unit.
Have you looked at some of the comment left in the Sign In/Out books after some of the cow hunts? I'm sure a lot of them are road hunters, and that is something you can't do in this unit.
I wish I could make it to the meetings but unfortuneately I cannot. Oh well, I guess time will tell what happens to this unit in the next several years.....
Don,
I agree with a lot of what you say. Maybe the elk population has increased to justify the tag numbers. But even before the increases this year they have too many tags. Keep in mind this is just my opinion based on how many elk I've seen the past couple years compared 4-5 years ago. They are getting harder to find for a lot of people who don't regularly hunt the unit.
Have you looked at some of the comment left in the Sign In/Out books after some of the cow hunts? I'm sure a lot of them are road hunters, and that is something you can't do in this unit.
I wish I could make it to the meetings but unfortuneately I cannot. Oh well, I guess time will tell what happens to this unit in the next several years.....
Utah400Elk
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Sorry about that I guess fat fingers got to me.
DonMartin
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You hit it on the head. I think it is fair to say that MANY but not ALL antlerless elk hunters don't get that far off the road, thus they don't see a lot.
Late bull hunters tend to get off the roads a little and hoof it a lot, thus they seem to do better.
Archery and early bull hunters for the most part just go after it, and thus do quite well.
I agree that I too haven't seen nearly as many elk as I have in the past but that could be attributed to a number of factor. At this point I'll give G&F the benefit of the doubt.
Look at hunt success for the past 4 years. Pretty stable, so if the elk numbers were dropping a lot, would we see the success that is there? Pretty compelling info to say that the herds AREN'T dropping a lot, and yes they may even be increasing.
Tough call for sure, the more I got into the project the more I see why G&F did what they did.
I know one thing, it's not about money guys, really it's not. They got some pretty good data that would seem to justify what they are proposing.
But our opinions as consumptive users do and should count.
Wished I could go to the meeting, just have to wait and see what happens...
Don Martin
AWO
Late bull hunters tend to get off the roads a little and hoof it a lot, thus they seem to do better.
Archery and early bull hunters for the most part just go after it, and thus do quite well.
I agree that I too haven't seen nearly as many elk as I have in the past but that could be attributed to a number of factor. At this point I'll give G&F the benefit of the doubt.
Look at hunt success for the past 4 years. Pretty stable, so if the elk numbers were dropping a lot, would we see the success that is there? Pretty compelling info to say that the herds AREN'T dropping a lot, and yes they may even be increasing.
Tough call for sure, the more I got into the project the more I see why G&F did what they did.
I know one thing, it's not about money guys, really it's not. They got some pretty good data that would seem to justify what they are proposing.
But our opinions as consumptive users do and should count.
Wished I could go to the meeting, just have to wait and see what happens...
Don Martin
AWO
rthrbhntng
Member
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The Arizona Elk Society worked for days last week and reached an agreement with the Dept. to cut back on the increases in the Unit 10 tags like Don noted. We have hired Jim devos to work with the Department to look at all the data from the last 10 years and come to terms with where we think Unit 10 should be at regarding Elk numbers and carrying capacity. The AES and other groups have funded hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of habitat projects in Unit 10 and we are very concerned about the current trends. The same thing happened about 6 years ago in 10 with elk tag numbers and they backed off for a while. We will be requesting input from the guides and outfitters like Don that have history in the unit. Hopefully in the next few months we will have the answers to the issue about the number of elk tags in Unit 10 and a couple of other units that we feel need to be looked at very hard.
The Arizona Elk Society could always use more members and don't forget our Banquet is coming up March 24, 2012. We will have 4 Commissioner Special Big Game Tags for auction at the banquet; Elk, Buffalo, Antelope and Turkey. Mark your calendars and help support us.
The Arizona Elk Society could always use more members and don't forget our Banquet is coming up March 24, 2012. We will have 4 Commissioner Special Big Game Tags for auction at the banquet; Elk, Buffalo, Antelope and Turkey. Mark your calendars and help support us.
quest
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LAST EDITED ON Dec-01-11 AT 07:23AM (MST)[p]rthrbhntng, I appreciated the Arizona Elk Society for the work they have done and its great that the organization has some pull with the AZ Game and Fish. I worry sometimes, the increase in tags is because of the lack of money the Department Game and fish needs to operate.
quest
quest
quest
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Regarding DonMartin's earlier comment, "Here is something else to consider, and this is just my opinion. Remember if they let the elk population grow like crazy, then they will have to answer to the Navajo Nation and the lessee of the cow operation." Just out of curiosity, does Game and Fish pay the Navajo nation for allowing us to hunt on their land or is it part of an agreement? How exactly does that work out?
quest
quest
rthrbhntng
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LAST EDITED ON Dec-01-11 AT 08:49AM (MST)[p]To the comment about the money being a driver of tag numbers.
Currently we have a Commission and Department that is willing to listen and work pretty close with the public. There are many factors to managing wildlife in the state and the financial aspect is one of them and it is up to us, the public, to make sure that the financial needs do not drive the system of determining the number of tags. For this year there is a decrease in the number of elk tags. If you guys remember back about 6 years ago the bull/cow and calf/cow ratios were lowered to provide more opportunity. We all came unglued and the Commission refused to listen to the public. At the last elk guideline meeting the Arizona Elk Society, working with a wildlife biologist familiar with the State of Arizona, requested that the guidelines be reset back to the higher bull/cow and calf/cow ratios and the commission agreed. In a few units this meant a reduction of tags but overall there wasn't a big change. If the public approaches the Commission and Department with concerns that are based on science and biology, with the facts to back it up, we are able to affect changes. If the public approaches the Commission and Dept. with emotion and personal feelings we are listened to and pretty much ignored. That is where a group like the Arizona Elk Society and others can be effective. If we take all the emotion, bottle it up, thoroughly research the issue using the AZGFD data through a respected wildlife biologist and researcher like Jim devos, from the AES, and then professionally present it to the Commission and Department we can make changes and make sure that the decisions are based on science not financial need.
The Arizona Elk Society realizes that there are many factors governing the numbers of tags and this thread has hit on a few. One of the big ones is carrying capacity, carrying capacity has to be balanced between a lot of things including the health of the habitat and the relationship with cattle grazing. The AZGFD works very close with the Forest Service in balancing the amount of forage that is available and the split between the cattle and wildlife. The ranchers have a right to the forage through their grazing permit. This is another area that the Arizona Elk Society is working by meeting with both sides and being involved in many of the meetings that determine the ratios. Our goal is to identify areas where the hundreds of thousands of dollars we raise can do the most good to effectively allow an increase in the overall population of elk without elk/cattle conflicts. It is not only the cattle that we need to be concerned with, increasing an elk herd can have a very bad affect on mule deer and other wildlife populations too.
Sorry for the long post. As President of the Arizona Elk Society I am very driven to balance the needs and wants of the elk hunters in Arizona. I am very passionate about our elk herds. I really enjoy elk hunting and elk watching and have a ton of friends that feel the same way. I want more elk, I want more tags but I realize that there are many factors involved and must use the system to get what I want. My feelings are echoed by all the members and Board members of the Arizona Elk Society. I have always said that there is strength in numbers. If there is a group out there that has your interest at heart then support them by joining. We can accomplish a lot if we band together. The Arizona Elk Society is very concerned about many issues in Arizona and we are actively working on them for the sportsmen. These include elk management, forest health, habitat improvements, Mexican wolf reintroduction, Forest Service Travel Management Plans and many more. We have representatives at many of the meetings to make sure that Arizona Sportsmen are involved and heard.
Steve
Currently we have a Commission and Department that is willing to listen and work pretty close with the public. There are many factors to managing wildlife in the state and the financial aspect is one of them and it is up to us, the public, to make sure that the financial needs do not drive the system of determining the number of tags. For this year there is a decrease in the number of elk tags. If you guys remember back about 6 years ago the bull/cow and calf/cow ratios were lowered to provide more opportunity. We all came unglued and the Commission refused to listen to the public. At the last elk guideline meeting the Arizona Elk Society, working with a wildlife biologist familiar with the State of Arizona, requested that the guidelines be reset back to the higher bull/cow and calf/cow ratios and the commission agreed. In a few units this meant a reduction of tags but overall there wasn't a big change. If the public approaches the Commission and Department with concerns that are based on science and biology, with the facts to back it up, we are able to affect changes. If the public approaches the Commission and Dept. with emotion and personal feelings we are listened to and pretty much ignored. That is where a group like the Arizona Elk Society and others can be effective. If we take all the emotion, bottle it up, thoroughly research the issue using the AZGFD data through a respected wildlife biologist and researcher like Jim devos, from the AES, and then professionally present it to the Commission and Department we can make changes and make sure that the decisions are based on science not financial need.
The Arizona Elk Society realizes that there are many factors governing the numbers of tags and this thread has hit on a few. One of the big ones is carrying capacity, carrying capacity has to be balanced between a lot of things including the health of the habitat and the relationship with cattle grazing. The AZGFD works very close with the Forest Service in balancing the amount of forage that is available and the split between the cattle and wildlife. The ranchers have a right to the forage through their grazing permit. This is another area that the Arizona Elk Society is working by meeting with both sides and being involved in many of the meetings that determine the ratios. Our goal is to identify areas where the hundreds of thousands of dollars we raise can do the most good to effectively allow an increase in the overall population of elk without elk/cattle conflicts. It is not only the cattle that we need to be concerned with, increasing an elk herd can have a very bad affect on mule deer and other wildlife populations too.
Sorry for the long post. As President of the Arizona Elk Society I am very driven to balance the needs and wants of the elk hunters in Arizona. I am very passionate about our elk herds. I really enjoy elk hunting and elk watching and have a ton of friends that feel the same way. I want more elk, I want more tags but I realize that there are many factors involved and must use the system to get what I want. My feelings are echoed by all the members and Board members of the Arizona Elk Society. I have always said that there is strength in numbers. If there is a group out there that has your interest at heart then support them by joining. We can accomplish a lot if we band together. The Arizona Elk Society is very concerned about many issues in Arizona and we are actively working on them for the sportsmen. These include elk management, forest health, habitat improvements, Mexican wolf reintroduction, Forest Service Travel Management Plans and many more. We have representatives at many of the meetings to make sure that Arizona Sportsmen are involved and heard.
Steve
quest
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rthrbhntng hey thanks for your response it all makes since and its great to have advocates out there for all of us. How does the Indian land and Boquillas private land and Fish $ Game all come together to allow us to hunt on there land? I've always wonder about how this all plays out.
quest
quest
DonMartin
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Maybe I can answer your question about the situation on the Boquillas as I have been personally involved with it for many years.
The Boquillas Ranch (about 750,000 acres of which 500,000 is private deeded lands)) is owned by the Navajo Nation. The ranch is NOT TRIBAL LANDS! They (Navajo Tribe)own the land as private landowners. Only Congress can decree sovereign tribal lands and in the case of the Boquillas Ranch, that has not been done. So the tribe are in effect, at least on paper, a major landowner with no special perks.
G&F does work very close with the tribe on management and habitat issues, but as of last report there is no formal agreement to allow long term sportsman access on the ranch. Seems to be a year-to-year "gentleman's" agreement between the Nation and the Department.
Think about it. What would happen if the tribe decided to close all of the access points on the ranch to sportsmen? Under state law, A sportsman cannot cross (trepass) on private lands to reach state lands, of which there are 250,000 acres of state lands within the Boquillas boundaries.
So could they (the tribe) at least in theory charge for access, kind of like some other ranches do? Absolutely!
So the Department and others (conservation groups) work with the tribe to keep as much of the ranch open as they can for all of us to recreate on..
This is one reason why over 20 years ago when I was President of the Mohave Sportsman Club that I started the annual Boquillas Ranch cleanup. For a one day a year turn out, we as sportsmen agree to clean up the ranch in exchange for keeping the ranch open. That's why I am so passionate about it, and why I get so upset when folks don't bother to turn out. It is a situation that quite frankly, many just take for granted.
We (MSC) had a written agreement with the tribe and G&F on this. I wish I could find the document we all signed. It was done under the auspices of the Department's Landowner/Sportsman group. .
So it is not always easy for the Department to manage the Boquillas like many of us or they want.
Like Steve Clark of the AES said, there are lots of things that play into the management of this huge property.
Sure we'd all like to be able to go elk hunting and the Boquillas has some of the best in AZ, but the Department has to answer and balance out a lot of things to a lot of people, including us.
Just imagine if we lost access and/or we had to pay trespass fees to hunt on the Boquillas. Is that a better situation than we are now? I think not...
Don Martin
Government Liaison
Mohave Sportsman Club
The Boquillas Ranch (about 750,000 acres of which 500,000 is private deeded lands)) is owned by the Navajo Nation. The ranch is NOT TRIBAL LANDS! They (Navajo Tribe)own the land as private landowners. Only Congress can decree sovereign tribal lands and in the case of the Boquillas Ranch, that has not been done. So the tribe are in effect, at least on paper, a major landowner with no special perks.
G&F does work very close with the tribe on management and habitat issues, but as of last report there is no formal agreement to allow long term sportsman access on the ranch. Seems to be a year-to-year "gentleman's" agreement between the Nation and the Department.
Think about it. What would happen if the tribe decided to close all of the access points on the ranch to sportsmen? Under state law, A sportsman cannot cross (trepass) on private lands to reach state lands, of which there are 250,000 acres of state lands within the Boquillas boundaries.
So could they (the tribe) at least in theory charge for access, kind of like some other ranches do? Absolutely!
So the Department and others (conservation groups) work with the tribe to keep as much of the ranch open as they can for all of us to recreate on..
This is one reason why over 20 years ago when I was President of the Mohave Sportsman Club that I started the annual Boquillas Ranch cleanup. For a one day a year turn out, we as sportsmen agree to clean up the ranch in exchange for keeping the ranch open. That's why I am so passionate about it, and why I get so upset when folks don't bother to turn out. It is a situation that quite frankly, many just take for granted.
We (MSC) had a written agreement with the tribe and G&F on this. I wish I could find the document we all signed. It was done under the auspices of the Department's Landowner/Sportsman group. .
So it is not always easy for the Department to manage the Boquillas like many of us or they want.
Like Steve Clark of the AES said, there are lots of things that play into the management of this huge property.
Sure we'd all like to be able to go elk hunting and the Boquillas has some of the best in AZ, but the Department has to answer and balance out a lot of things to a lot of people, including us.
Just imagine if we lost access and/or we had to pay trespass fees to hunt on the Boquillas. Is that a better situation than we are now? I think not...
Don Martin
Government Liaison
Mohave Sportsman Club
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