Non Res bonus points

[bucks]

So I have decided to give up on Colorado all together,
I have 4 non resident deer points,I will sell to the highest bidder,Minimum bid
100K

 

[dmandoes]

I'll give u $200,000 if i can point average.

 

[Crampy]

A change to 50% bonus weighted appears to be almost imminent. But will be good to see some more folks get frustrated and drop out before that goes in for 2026-ish...

 

[AZGuy]

A change to 50% bonus weighted appears to be almost imminent. But will be good to see some more folks get frustrated and drop out before that goes in for 2026-ish...

Can you please articulate on this? I’m in the dark.

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

Colorado has preference points not bonus points. I haven't heard of any changes of going to bonus points at any meetings. Doubtful it will happen with their cash cow of preference points they have going

 

[elkantlers]

Colorado has preference points not bonus points. I haven't heard of any changes of going to bonus points at any meetings. Doubtful it will happen with their cash cow of preference points they have going

I think they would increase applicants if they did a weighted point system for NR. Right now, there isn't much incentive to start building points for quality units when there are so many ahead of you.

 

[MrDoe]

https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Commission/2024/March/Item.27_March_2024_DWG_Memo.pdf

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

They already do a hybrid draw for residents on the high demand units.

 

[Crampy]

The BROKEN true preference system in CO for deer/elk will almost surely be going away (finally). It's anyone's guess what the committee and commission will later decide and when it will go in to effect. But it will have some random/bonus component. Something like 50% preference, 50% random or bonus seemed to be the leaning of the committee. 2026, ish???

Fast forward to the final few slides at the end of this 8 hour meeting:

 

[Crampy]

Sounds like some NRs aren't familiar that this is coming. Some of the smart ones are aware and will be cashing out their points this year if they can get the tag they want using true preference.

Many in the vast no-man's land of Colorado points are probably hanging out a few more years. And looking forward to finally having a chance at a "premium" CO elk tag where they can shoot a 320 bull.

After going 50/50 (or similar), the preference side will soon be a 100 year draw. So, then Colorado will realize they need to abandon preference altogether.

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

Knowing CPW they will do something stupid like weighted points for all species.

 

[Crampy]

Knowing CPW they will do something stupid like weighted points for all species.

There was some discussion about the benefits of using one system for all species. And, weighted MSG is a system they understand.

I suspect they will end up with one system someday for all species. But sure sounds like they want to retain 50% preference for a while to help folks transition out. But with preference tags cut in half, the 50% preference side will be 100 years plus in no time and then everyone will agree to abandon preference altogether.

 

[LIK2HNT]

The little I listened to they seem to not understand what they are talking about..
Sounds like they are going to screw top point holders who have waited a long time for hunts.
If they pull this crap, when will it go into affect.

 

[Crampy]

If they pull this crap, when will it go into affect.

As to implementation, CPW has said
"If approved in November, regulatory changes could be implemented as early as the 2025 draws for simple changes. If changes are more complex, implementation may be delayed to 2026 or beyond"

Personally, I like the proposals as I am in middle no-man's land and if they go 50% bonus, I win. But sure, those nearing a truly premium preference tag are against it. As they will assuredly never draw that tag once only 50%(ish) of tags are preference. The creep on the preference side will be even worse than today. One will have to start accruing points at 12 year of age and outlive his entire cohort to draw a preference 44 buck tag or NW corner bull tag.

Cash out in 2024 if you're smart. Because EVERYONE will know about this for the 2025 draw and behavior will change immensely.

 

[Bluehair]

Knowing CPW they will do something stupid like weighted points for all species.

I wish you were wrong.

I don’t quite understand the process, but it appears that marketing and mathematical masturbations are attempting to overcome the laws of supply and demand that economists figured out a hundred years ago.

We just need a bigger spreadsheet.

 

[LIK2HNT]

I think some of these people don’t realize that with whatever system they switch to that the majority of people will never draw a top tier unit. Top units with 1: 1000 to 3000 odds (or even way less) are Hail Marys draws. Just not enough tags to go around.

 

[Mallardsx2]

https://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Commission/2024/March/Item.27_March_2024_DWG_Memo.pdf

 

[Mallardsx2]

The system they have in place isn't perfect, but it isn't terrible. It would/could be fixed by just doing away with OTC and taking points for ANY A-list tag drawn. It would have held solid for a long time if they had just made those changes.

Colorado has good hunting and people will buy point and continue to burn points to hunt there. The problem is, Colorado has not been forcing people to burn their points. At every turn in the road, they are allowing points to be built up and maintained. This has led to massive point creep.

The days of hunting Colorado every year and using it as your fallback plan as an OTC hunter are over. If that makes the hunting better for all of us, then I say that's great. If I only get to hunt Colorado every other year or once every three years, I am 100% ok with that as long as the hunting gets better and by better I don't necessarily mean success rates.


One thing is for sure, the amount of preference points that will be purchased in Colorado is going to SKYROCKET. I know a ton of guys who don't have any points for anything in Colorado because they just hunt OTC every year. Those guys are now going to be buying points. Some of them might just say the hell with it and give up hunting the state but most will comply and get sucked into the CPW's preference points game.

 

[txhunter58]

“So you’re saying there’s a chance!”

As stated, if implemented, the number of people
applying for tags will skyrocket. Wait, that means more money for CPW and our odds are much worse of ever drawing a coveted tag. Sure, someone will always come on here and say “wow, I drew the “ABC” tag! But with double or triple the applicants, what does that do to YOUR odds in reality?

Also as stated, ALL tags need to be draw only. And don’t mess with low point units! Those work great as they are. Maybe throw high point units a random tag bone. Wait, we already do that!

That said, I am glad to see support for the proposal that all 4 draw choices would use preference points. That in itself will do the most for point creep.

If you do the math, a 50/50 split on high point/ random tags will significantly INCREASE point creep! Only half as many high point users will draw tags. And you and my chance of drawing a random tag is minuscule. So this proposal is either dumb or dumber.

 

[montezumarchery]

Many in the vast no-man's land of Colorado points are probably hanging out a few more years. And looking forward to finally having a chance at a "premium" CO elk tag where they can shoot a 230 bull.

There... I fixed it to be more accurate.

 

[Togwotee]

This is all a problem because we live in the age of entitlement. time and effort and money spent mean nothing, I just showed up and I want to be an equal .

CO has the best system of any western state. the more dues you've paid the better your chances, that's the closest thing to capitalism there is in the hunting world. if a guy has 30 points and I have 20 I don't resent his advantage I hope he draws and I move up the ladder. wanting to screw him out of his advantage is as lame as it gets, I'm not entitled to the tag I have to earn it.

 

[LIK2HNT]

Will this mess be finalized in the march commission meeting?
If they are going to change things many will be scrambling to use their points before they are devalued. My 5 year plan for my children and myself might need to be cramming into a year. Not good.

 

[sneakem]

Will this mess be finalized in the march commission meeting?
If they are going to change things many will be scrambling to use their points before they are devalued. My 5 year plan for my children and myself might need to be cramming into a year. Not good.

As posted earlier...

As to implementation, CPW has said
"If approved in November, regulatory changes could be implemented as early as the 2025 draws for simple changes. If changes are more complex, implementation may be delayed to 2026 or beyond"

 

[Crampy]

If you do the math, a 50/50 split on high point/ random tags will significantly INCREASE point creep! Only half as many high point users will draw tags. And you and my chance of drawing a random tag is minuscule. So this proposal is either dumb or dumber.

Ahh, another guy with high points that is mad.

Yes, the creep on the 50% preference side will be astronomical.

But the 50%-ish random/bonus side will go from zero odds to non zero.

Preference eventually will need to be completely retired once enough of the old pissed off guys die off.

 

[Crampy]

As posted earlier...

As to implementation, CPW has said
"If approved in November, regulatory changes could be implemented as early as the 2025 draws for simple changes. If changes are more complex, implementation may be delayed to 2026 or beyond"

The timeline won't be established before 2024 app deadline.

The smart money is on 2026 implementation.

But the smart guys will burn their points in 2024 to beat the flood of point hoarders that will come off the sideline in 2025.

 

[RRCowboyStar]

I am not sure why people are upset with point creep? It's your choice to keep building points for magical units. Go hunt!

 

[Togwotee]

Ahh, another guy with high points that is mad.

Yes, the creep on the 50% preference side will be astronomical.

But the 50%-ish random/bonus side will go from zero odds to non zero.

Preference eventually will need to be completely retired once enough of the old pissed off guys die off.

So you're entitled to the tag us " old pissed off guys " have been trying for 20-40 years to draw. if that doesn't sound like a millennial, working and paying your dues is for suckers. give it to me now I'm special and I deserve it.

 

[SDBugler]

I glanced through the memo in Mr Doe's post #7.

The thing that I find funny is that they don't state exactly "what" the problems are and exactly "what" needs to be fixed/accomplished!

Here is from the first paragraph in the memo:

"The purpose of the group is to analyze our current draw rules and processes in order to identify ways to reduce the complexities and find new solutions/alternatives to fix some of the preference point issues within the Colorado draw system, as well as address biological and sociological concerns"

What are the "preference point issues"?
This is open to individual interpretation depending on each individual's circumstances, goals, etc.
Is it that certain tags continue to experience "point creep"?
Is it that low point applicants don't have a chance at high point tags?
Is it because high demand tags are slipping through the cracks and getting issued without using points in the return/reallocation process?
Is it because hunters can still get a tag and hunt while gaining a point for that year?

How can you fix a problem if you don't even define what problem you are trying to fix? They don't really explain what they are trying to accomplish.

What people don't understand is that any point system will have "point creep" if the demand exceeds the supply - period!

 

[Triple7]

We as hunters can come up with lots of ideas that can improve the system, In all honestly I’m not sure if the decision makers mostly the CPW commission comprehends and even cares about the real issues other than how much money they can make.

 

[Bluehair]

This is at the bottom of every CPW press release:

“CPW is an enterprise agency, relying primarily on license sales, state parks fees and registration fees to support its operations, including: 43 state parks and more than 350 wildlife areas covering approximately 900,000 acres, management of fishing and hunting, wildlife watching, camping, motorized and non-motorized trails, boating and outdoor education. CPW's work contributes approximately $6 billion in total economic impact annually throughout Colorado.”

I don’t know why you guys keep saying it’s just about money.

 

[Deercy]

All systems have good and bad points. Personally I prefer a true point system. Put in your time, do your homework, predict and prepare. Wyoming nonresident system is cool. The resident system has worked well with the general guarantee as backup to the random limited. That system is attractive, but if population changes, it would present problems. I don't like New Mexicos system as my primary, but as my filler, it isn't bad. Personally, a true preference point is far and away my favorite. I dream of the unattainable, but those everyday, easily drawn tags are my meat and potatoes.

 

[txhunter58]

Ahh, another guy with high points that is mad.

Yes, the creep on the 50% preference side will be astronomical.

But the 50%-ish random/bonus side will go from zero odds to non zero.

Preference eventually will need to be completely retired once enough of the old pissed off guys die off.

LOL. I have zero points for deer and 1 point for elk. And no, I have never used a bunch of points for a tag.
But I hunt every year. Dont mess with that!

Yep, “YOU are saying there’s a chance”. Someone will indeed draw. But YOU will never draw a high demand tag. Because the chance of you drawing a random high point tag will be “astronomical”

 

[LIK2HNT]

LOL. I have zero points for deer and 1 point for elk. And no, I have never used a bunch of points for a tag.
But I hunt every year. Dont mess with that!

Yep, “YOU are saying there’s a chance”. Someone will indeed draw. But YOU will never draw a high demand tag. Because the chance of you drawing a random high point tag will be “astronomical”

Most don’t understand this. I think most of us with high point’s understand we still might not draw what we want. Or we have to step down a tier or two. I am fine with that because I have been playing the long game to hunt where and how I want to hunt. I hunt other states for less quality easier to draw units.

 

[txhunter58]

Preference eventually will need to be completely retired once enough of the old pissed off guys die off.

My wife went to the post office yesterday and she said it was busy. She was about 6-7 in line. An “older guy” driving a very nice car, probably in his early 70s, got in line behind her and she could tell that he was pissed that he had to stand in line. Every few minutes he would curse softly, including taking the Lord’s name in vain multiple times. She got to the point where she told herself if he said something one more time she was going to give him a piece of her mind. Luckily he finally said no more.

You seem to already be to that point. Getting an early start I guess.

 

[txhunter58]

Has anyone thought about this? Not only will more “new people” put in that never have applied before, but most people currently just applying for points as option #1, will now apply to a high demand unit every year. That’s what we all did back in the day there wasn’t a “point” option. Just apply to a unit you didn’t have a chance to draw. And that’s what I currently do in Utah for deer. I apply to Henry’s or other similar unit. Hey, there’s a chance! But what does that do to the odds? My odds there are 0.01. And that’s with 17 points.

Total number of applicants in high point units will explode.

 

[txhunter58]

If they do this, I sure hope it’s not 50/50. Pref vs. random at 80/20 or 90/10 might be ok

 

[SDBugler]

Has anyone thought about this? Not only will more “new people” put in that never have applied before, but most people currently just applying for points as option #1, will now apply to a high demand unit every year. That’s what we all did back in the day there wasn’t a “point” option. Just apply to a unit you didn’t have a chance to draw. And that’s what I currently do in Utah for deer. I apply to Henry’s or other similar unit. Hey, there’s a chance! But what does that do to the odds? My odds there are 0.01. And that’s with 17 points.

Total number of applicants in high point units will explode.

Yup. That's what I did too

I'm not sure if it is the residents that are complaining about preference point issues (I would have to assume so since usually DOW commissions care little about NR's except for the out of state income and there is still ever increasing demand) but if it is the residents that are having the issue, then maybe they should go with a system like WY where the residents don't have a point system and leave the NR' system alone. I personally haven't heard of any NR's complaining about preference point issues.

Regardless, we all know/knew what the process is/was. If we don't want to play the game of waiting for a hard to draw area then we can just put in for easy to draw areas. There are plenty of those to pick from. Why do people think that they should be able to draw the premium tags every year or couple years? Many of us have/are patiently waiting until it is our turn.

I knew this process loooong ago and started putting my sons in for tags/points as soon as they were of age to apply. They are now sitting on 17/16/12 deer points and elk points. We have specific hunts that we are looking at and knew 15+ years ago that it would likely take almost 20 points to draw the hunts that we wanted to go on and we knew it would be a long wait. (unfortunately the deer quality has gone down the toilet and now not sure if we would want to burn that many points on more than a select couple units - but that was a risk we took many years ago)

 

[Deercy]

Resident point creep hasn't been an issue. And if you think your opinion means more or less than mine, I think both are pretty quiet by themselves. There is a loud few people that complain about everything as a standard way of doing things, but I'm not sure even they get listened to.

 

[Togwotee]

My wife went to the post office yesterday and she said it was busy. She was about 6-7 in line. An “older guy” driving a very nice car, probably in his early 70s, got in line behind her and she could tell that he was pissed that he had to stand in line. Every few minutes he would curse softly, including taking the Lord’s name in vain multiple times. She got to the point where she told herself if he said something one more time she was going to give him a piece of her mind. Luckily he finally said no more.

You seem to already be to that point. Getting an early start I guess.

Maybe it's because he was around when there weren't lines of pilgrims, and he could just walk in and talk to the only worker in the post office who was sweeping the floor for something to do.

And he didn't have to draw a tag they were over the counter and you could hunt the whole state. then the pilgrims came and he had to start building points to hunt anymore. then he built up about enough points he could draw but the millennials wanted instant gratification, so they changed the rules on him and now he probably won't live long enough to draw the tag he spent 30 years trying for.

Let'em have it grandpa, I'll cheer you on.


Anyway, I wish I knew when and what they were going to do. I got a bunch of points and I'm tired of getting hosed I'd like to burn them before it's too late. but I'd rather not do it all in one year.

 

[txhunter58]

If they made 2 changes and it would solve 80% of point issues:

Make all elk tags draw only and make all 4 choices use points.

The “all draw” I would get behind 100%
The other I could live with but it’s nice to get a tag and a point. But we have to give up something.

I just think a 50/50 hybrid system has too many negatives. Totally against that unless it only applies to high point hunts.

 

[LIK2HNT]

Unless I did not understand the lady, she was talking about requiring a minimum number of preference points to enter the draw. Someone even said 5. That might work for S-M-Mtn. G, where there are no low point hunts. For D-E-A that sounds crazy.

 

[SDBugler]

The 50/50 hybrid will do nothing but make point creep much worse. Look at what happened when AZ made that switch. And honestly the chance of drawing high demand tags is so low that it is almost impossible. If they do go to a hybrid system, hopefully it would at least be like Utah's random draw and not like AZ's

If the goal is to reduce point creep, maybe they should consider that to obtain any high point tags in the reissue process should require points to be used. For example - any tag on the reissue list that took a min of 5 points to draw should only be available to people with 5 points and they should have to use their points to get the tag. I think it is odd that people get to go hunting on these hard to draw tags, not use their points, and still gain a point for that year!!! Counter intuitive to the point creep issue.

I also would agree to needing to use your points in the first draw for any choice. Then if guys that want to build points and still go hunting, then they can pick from the leftover units. This would make it easier to draw lower point units.

 

[HntHrdr]

I wish you were wrong.

I don’t quite understand the process, but it appears that marketing and mathematical masturbations are attempting to overcome the laws of supply and demand that economists figured out a hundred years ago.

We just need a bigger spreadsheet.

Just print more tags! What could go wrong? Or are you saying that if we continued down this road we would make said tags worthless because we would destroy the resource?! Hmmmm sorta reminds me of something else but I can’t remember what… guess I’ll go back to browsing 2.5 million dollar spec homes on Zillow

 

[Bluehair]

Just print more tags! What could go wrong? Or are you saying that if we continued down this road we would make said tags worthless because we would destroy the resource?! Hmmmm sorta reminds me of something else but I can’t remember what… guess I’ll go back to browsing 2.5 million dollar spec homes on Zillow

You put way more thought into my posts than I do.