Non Resident Preference Point Sharing

[huntfishall1]

So how long will be it before they propose to change the rule for non residents that apply as a group and "average" preference points? Basically make it like Colorado where they use the number of preference points from the applicant with the lowest number of points within the group?

After seeing "Founders Bill" this year, and based on what I have seen in terms of how some WY outfitters and residents generally see nonresidents this is my take -

I'm sure some WY outfitters hate seeing non-residents providing hunting info and/or assistance (non-compensated therefore not considered "guided") to other non-residents. It puts a dent in their business.

I'm sure some residents hate see non-residents do the same as it could put more pressure on animals they are also trying to harvest.

So any guesses how soon we will see a proposal to change the current system?

Or on the other hand will it be unnecessary since the trend in some of the most popular hunting regions (G and H for mule deer) is less and less tags for nonresidents such that in the near future there will be basically no non-resident tags allocated?

 

[boomer]

In terms of region G, I think this year will probably eliminate the point sharing at least with non-residents that have 0 points. With max points now sitting at 11, it is hard to imagine that 5.5 points will still get you a tag, unless of course the state does not follow through with the tag cuts, but I wouldn't rely on that. From what I am hearing, the tag cuts are pretty likely.

 

[Sierra]

Outfitters likely support the current point sharing rules.

 

[TOPGUN]

The only way point averaging will change is if the residents go to a PP system and make point sharing only usable by the lowest point holder, which is unlikely in the near future. Point averaging doesn't hurt the outfitters or they would have already tried to introduce a bill to change it. IMHO averaging creates a lot less of a problem than some think.

 

[Deerlove]

Top I would disagree I see people trying to whore out their points for $.

 

[jm77]

>The only way point averaging will
>change is if the residents
>go to a PP system
>and make point sharing only
>usable by the lowest point
>holder, which is unlikely in
>the near future. Point
>averaging doesn't hurt the outfitters
>or they would have already
>tried to introduce a bill
>to change it. IMHO
>averaging creates a lot less
>of a problem than some
>think.


^^^This is correct except for last line.

 

[jm77]

>Outfitters likely support the current point
>sharing rules.


They absolutely do...

 

[TOPGUN]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-14-17 AT 03:13PM (MST)[p]Deelove & JM77---There are obviously abuses of point averaging like you mentioned and I don't like it any more than you do even though I'm not in the PP rat race. Don't you think if the NRs felt that it was a big enough problem that there would be an outcry to the G&F to change the system or maybe just not enough NRs know what's going on to raise a fuss?

 

[jm77]

>Deelove & JM77---There are obviously abuses
>of point averaging like you
>mentioned and I don't like
>it any more than you
>do even though I'm not
>in the PP rat race.
> Don't you think if
>the NRs felt that it
>was a big enough problem
>that there would be an
>outcry to the G&F to
>change the system or maybe
>just not enough NRs know
>what's going on to raise
>a fuss?

I think the very last point you raised is correct Mike. Most NR do not know all the dealing going on with point averaging. Frankly, this does not effect me as a resident, other that seeing a face in the field possibly more often than all others, because they know how to play the game.

I don't agree with dealing to take advantage of averaging, anymore than I agree with selling information on trophy mule deer bucks or offering to pay for info on trophy deer for that matter. It is all just more evidence of the denigration of our hunting tradition. Some are just never satisfied with what is waiting out there for us on every hunt we go on. There just has to an advantage someone else never thought of or a new "angle" waiting out there to get a "one up" on the next guy.

 

[TOPGUN]

I agree with you 100% on your last post Jeff. It's a damn shame what hunting has become over my lifetime where it's now considered an "industry", rather than a cherished tradition passed on through the family generations like my Grandpa did for my Dad and my Dad did for me before I was even in school!

 

[jims]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-16-17 AT 09:18AM (MST)[p]There are some benefits to point averaging that haven't been discussed on the posts above. A huge benefit is it is possible to apply family and friends together using the full value of everyone's pref pts that applies in a party. In the case of Colo, the guy with the least amount of pref pts is the pts used in the draw. If I have 16 pts and my son has only 2 pts we would only have 2 pref pts to apply in Colo. With pt averaging in Wyo we would have 9. Point averaging allows a lot of guys to hunt together that otherwise wouldn't.

With pt averaging in Wyo the guys with close to max pts are likely more willing to use their pref pts to draw high quality units that take less than max pts to draw rather than waiting a lifetime to draw. There seems to be a lot of complaints in Colo that max pref pts units continue to point creep each year. Pt averaging actually helps alleviate pt creep in the tougher draw units. Rather than guys just applying for close to max pref pt units each year hunters are able to share their pref pts in high quality units with family and friends that have fewer pref pts. This may actually help draw odds in units that take close to max pref pts to draw.

What hasn't really been mentioned above is that pt averaging burns low and high pref pts when tags are drawn. As an example, if I have 2 pts and I apply with a guy that has 10 pts....both of our pref pts are used in the draw and our pts return to 0 after the draw. Draw odds will improve for other hunters that have 2 and 10 pref pts in the following years.

Wyoming isn't the only state that has pt averaging. I just read in the regulations that pt averaging is used in Nevada as well.

I've point averaged with quite a few guys over the years. This has been a win-win situation for all involved. I hunted with others that otherwise had no experience hunting Wyoming and may not have had time to research and scout high quality units or field judge game. I have a lifetime of experiences hunting Wyo that I'm willing to share with others. I've also gained life-long friendships with fellow hunters!

I will continue to support pt averaging in Wyoming because I believe it has a lot more benefits than negatives.

 

[TOPGUN]

Sure people like the averaging system when they have no PPs like some do every year and seem to be able to find a sucker that will waste half or more of his PPs to hunt a unit that one likes that doesn't take half the points the other guy has in the bank. Doing it quietly is one thing, but broadcasting it all over websites along with misleading information to get people to use up their PPs is wrong IMHO and why many dislike the averaging system.

 

[Founder]

Why does it matter if someone broadcasts it all over the internet that they would like to apply with someone and trade points for intel? Maybe they even want to hunt together.

If my group needs another applicant to secure G tags this year and I post here that I can put them in a really good spot and consult them on how to best hunt the area in exchange for them applying with us, why is that a problem? Heck, there's a good chance I'll find a new friend out of the deal whom I can communicate with about hunting for years to come, and they too. We both walk away from the deal with good tags and great spots to hunt.

I just don't see the problem.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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[nripepi]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-17-17 AT 08:52AM (MST)[p]There are tons of positives to point sharing. Share with family or friends and have a good hunt. Share with someone and make a new friend and have a good hunt.....share your points to give you a better chance at shooting a mature animal.

I think the issue (I am 100% contemplating it myself) is sharing my points for intel/scouting from a non-guide or for a discount on a guided hunt by sharing with one of the guides clients. Those 11 points cost me $440, but I am willing to pimp them out for help in trying to shoot a nice buck because I do not have the time or funds available to scout properly. In this scenario, the max point holder is sharing with a zero point holder who hunts the area yearly by sharing points. I would probably be getting in excess of a $400 benefit: $1000 scouting package, someone paying for my license and scouting, a discount on a guided hunt.

They are my points and I can do as I please with them, but when there is money and services changing hands something just seems different. All of this reeks as pimping out wildlife or tags or both to the highest bidder the person with the best deal (whatever that deal is). Maybe I should put sharing my points up for auction on Ebay? How much would sharing my 11 points go for? That is kind of what is going on here and I see why Topgun said you might want to keep it a bit on the down low or it could easily go away!

So do I share with my max points with someone I don't know to help give me a better chance at shooting a mature buck or share with a friend/relative with few points and enjoy the hunt with them?

As I said I don't want point sharing to go away and I have used it with friends and family a number of times, this just doesn't look quite right for some reason. It seems like it is not fair for those sitting with 3 or 4 or 5 points waiting in line and they are getting jumped by that 0 point person who hunts the unit every year (basically buying the tag by providing a benefit).

 

[huntfishall1]

Founder, you have to ask a related question - WHO does it matter to that you share pref points with another nonresident or that you broadcast it over the Internet?

From the responses above it seems the WY outfitters don't care and actually might prefer the current system that allows point averaging - so strike them off the list.

Also from responses I rarely see non-residents gripe about point averaging. So we can eliminate them too.

So WHO does that leave? I guess WY residents, right? And why does it matter to them?


>Why does it matter if someone
>broadcasts it all over the
>internet that they would like
>to apply with someone and
>trade points for intel? Maybe
>they even want to hunt
>together.
>
>If my group needs another applicant
>to secure G tags this
>year and I post here
>that I can put them
>in a really good spot
>and consult them on how
>to best hunt the area
>in exchange for them applying
>with us, why is that
>a problem? Heck, there's a
>good chance I'll find a
>new friend out of the
>deal whom I can communicate
>with about hunting for years
>to come, and they too.
>We both walk away from
>the deal with good tags
>and great spots to hunt.
>
>
>I just don't see the problem.
>
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>on Facebook!

 

[nripepi]

Do more big bucks get killed with or without point sharing? I am guessing with, but maybe that is not true. If that is so, then residents could be upset!

 

[Founder]

I would guess the ones who don't like the point averaging enough to exhaust more than 2 minutes of their life complaining about it really just don't want to see anyone from out of state hunting Wyoming every year. Simply, they just don't want us there shooting "their" deer.
I would guess that if you dug a hair deeper, they'd also like to see non-resident tags cut a lot.
A little deeper, and they'd like all outfitters to go away because they too are a threat.
Go a little deeper and they'd really like less competition from Wyoming residents too, but there's not much they can hope for there because any changes could affect them.
Bottom line, some understandably want less competition in the areas they hunt and look in every direction possible to find a way to get what they want without putting their own opportunity at jeapordy.

"Founders" bill. Quite simply, some just didn't want me to share my knowledge of bucks up there. For that matter, many really don't want me to provide anyone any help at all, period.
The legislation failed because luckily there were a lot of politicians who viewed it through unbiased eyes and realized that it was special interest trying to push a law to benefit themselves.
They tried to sell it as unethical, unsporting and wrong, so one should have to have a guide license to do it. LOL
A hundred bucks says that even if I have a guide license, those who don't want me to share my knowledge with others still won't be happy.

And honestly, I understand most wanting less competition, and especially less intelligent competition in the hills. Hunting is better with fewer people to compete with. And I understand those special interest folks trying to bully those who they can. I don't think it's right or fair, but it's the way the world works. All I, we as non-residents, or those who share points can do is try to voice our opinion to those who matter and affect change and hope those decision makers can view things from our point of view too.
If we lose, we lose.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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[huntfishall1]

Bingo!

My experience hunting in WY compared to other states has been totally different in regards to attitudes of residents in those states. Not all but many WY made it very clear they didn't like me and other non residents hunting their areas and animals. Period. In other states like Idaho for example the residents didn't really care so much. Very different experiences in each state.

>I would guess the ones who
>don't like the point averaging
>enough to exhaust more than
>2 minutes of their life
>complaining about it really just
>don't want to see anyone
>from out of state hunting
>Wyoming every year. Simply, they
>just don't want us there
>shooting "their" deer.
>I would guess that if you
>dug a hair deeper, they'd
>also like to see non-resident
>tags cut a lot.
>A little deeper, and they'd like
>all outfitters to go away
>because they too are a
>threat.
>Go a little deeper and they'd
>really like less competition from
>Wyoming residents too, but there's
>not much they can hope
>for there because any changes
>could affect them.
>Bottom line, some understandably want less
>competition in the areas they
>hunt and look in every
>direction possible to find a
>way to get what they
>want without putting their own
>opportunity at jeapordy.
>
>"Founders" bill. Quite simply, some just
>didn't want me to share
>my knowledge of bucks up
>there. For that matter, many
>really don't want me to
>provide anyone any help at
>all, period.
>The legislation failed because luckily there
>were a lot of politicians
>who viewed it through unbiased
>eyes and realized that it
>was special interest trying to
>push a law to benefit
>themselves.
>They tried to sell it as
>unethical, unsporting and wrong, so
>one should have to have
>a guide license to do
>it. LOL
>A hundred bucks says that even
>if I have a guide
>license, those who don't want
>me to share my knowledge
>with others still won't be
>happy.
>
>And honestly, I understand most wanting
>less competition, and especially less
>intelligent competition in the hills.
>Hunting is better with fewer
>people to compete with. And
>I understand those special interest
>folks trying to bully those
>who they can. I don't
>think it's right or fair,
>but it's the way the
>world works. All I, we
>as non-residents, or those who
>share points can do is
>try to voice our opinion
>to those who matter and
>affect change and hope those
>decision makers can view things
>from our point of view
>too.
>If we lose, we lose.
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>on Facebook!

 

[jm77]

LAST EDITED ON Apr-18-17 AT 02:52PM (MST)[p]>I would guess the ones who
>don't like the point averaging
>enough to exhaust more than
>2 minutes of their life
>complaining about it really just
>don't want to see anyone
>from out of state hunting
>Wyoming every year.

What would be your guess Brian, as to why those in favor of point averaging would exhaust more than 2 minutes of their life supporting it on a hunting forum? Point averaging or not, the same number of NR licenses will be issued. Same face, different face who cares? Averaging has NO effect on me and where my 200"+ bucks came from.



Simply, they
>just don't want us there
>shooting "their" deer.

I have never seen a deer with my name on it or anyone else's for that matter.


>I would guess that if you
>dug a hair deeper, they'd
>also like to see non-resident
>tags cut a lot.
>A little deeper, and they'd like
>all outfitters to go away
>because they too are a
>threat.
>Go a little deeper and they'd
>really like less competition from
>Wyoming residents too, but there's
>not much they can hope
>for there because any changes
>could affect them.

All cynical comments and painting a broad brush, not cool as you yourself would say.


>Bottom line, some understandably want less
>competition in the areas they
>hunt and look in every
>direction possible to find a
>way to get what they
>want without putting their own
>opportunity at jeapordy.

True about some, but not all. Not even close...


>"Founders" bill. Quite simply, some just
>didn't want me to share
>my knowledge of bucks up
>there. For that matter, many
>really don't want me to
>provide anyone any help at
>all, period.

As long as some continue to "bastardize" hunting, it will be met with some resistance. Lawmakers and sportsman will continue to resist certain practices and technology, in the name of fair chase hunting. Whether you know it or not Brian, you have made quite a name for yourself through the years, some good, as you are quite the mule deer hunter, and some bad as you questionably breech the realm of ethical hunting.


>The legislation failed because luckily there
>were a lot of politicians
>who viewed it through unbiased
>eyes and realized that it
>was special interest trying to
>push a law to benefit
>themselves.

This is not true at all. A bill also failed that would allow the G&F to keep geospatial information confidential so someone who wants an "advantage" could not request locations of radio collared game animals. These issues are not resolved and you will see this come up until a viable bill is offered and passed.

>They tried to sell it as
>unethical, unsporting and wrong, so
>one should have to have
>a guide license to do
>it. LOL

It is unethical, unsporting and wrong....


>A hundred bucks says that even
>if I have a guide
>license, those who don't want
>me to share my knowledge
>with others still won't be
>happy.

There will always be those that are unhappy with something. It makes the world go around.


>And honestly, I understand most wanting
>less competition, and especially less
>intelligent competition in the hills.
>Hunting is better with fewer
>people to compete with.

I think intelligent people want less completion in the hills, at least I know I do.


And
>I understand those special interest
>folks trying to bully those
>who they can. I don't
>think it's right or fair,
>but it's the way the
>world works. All I, we
>as non-residents, or those who
>share points can do is
>try to voice our opinion
>to those who matter and
>affect change and hope those
>decision makers can view things
>from our point of view
>too.
>If we lose, we lose.

Topgun has said it time and time again, averaging points is not going anywhere, until residents get PP. And he is absolutely right on this. But I wouldn't be holding my breath on resident PP in Wyoming anytime soon.

 

[mmwb]

I'm not sure a lot of residents even give it a thought. I don't worry about non-resident hunters. Wyoming is big country and the animals are there if one wants to put in the effort.

I hear some complaint from residents about the non residents up on the Grays during the elk hunt. It is more about competition for camping spots. Crowds can really work for you during an elk hunt. I don't hunt deer or elk up there, too crowded for my liking and too steep for my worn knees.

I prefer solitude when I hunt, but have found that you can make the crowd work for you too. The deer adjust to the crowd. You need to just adjust to the deer then. Besides, once you get off the ridges and main trails, it becomes substantially less crowded. A buck only needs a small pocket to live in. Find and hunt those pockets. No one else is.

 

[Founder]

I think often times some locals feel threatened by out of state hunters because some of us get after it really hard. We often invest more than just a couple dollars and couple days of time. Because we invest large amounts of money and years of time to get tags, many of us also invest more money and time into scouting and hunting.
Compared to the average resident hunter who spends $40 on a tag and 2 days of time, non-residents are a far greater threat to trophy game. And that's in turn a threat to the locals who may or may not also get after it hard.
While some residents feel that cutting tags for non-residents will save more of the trophy bucks, I think they're mistaken. I believe that the longer it takes for a non-resident to get a tag and the more expensive they are, the more time and money we will invest to make the most of our opportunity. When opportunity is rare, people will value it far more, and that will result in people hiring guides more often and will also force outfitters and guides to get better at finding and getting the biggest animals in an area. Also when that opportunity is rare, people will invest more time in pursuing those trophy animals. If not hiring a guide, they'll bring whatever help they can. And because it's a rare opportunity, help will be offered by more family and friends.
Utah is the perfect example of that. There's a reason that so many success photos now include 5-8 people sitting behind that trophy.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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[TOPGUN]

Question Founder---How many times have you hunted, not just scouted, in Region G &/or H over the last ten years?

 

[huntfishall1]

It's been fairly obvious it's been every year. I've enjoyed reading his posts over the years and watching his podcasts in more recent years.

But another related and important question would be how many times has he NOT filled a tag? He's very selective and I know in recent years hunted hard passing up bucks and ended the season with tag soup.

Question Founder---How many times have you
>hunted, not just scouted, in
>Region G &/or H over
>the last ten years?

 

[Founder]

jm77 - when I express my opinion on how some may think, it's just that, "some". I don't want it to appear that I feel a particular way about all. But I do believe some feel and act as I posted.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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[Founder]

I think I've had G or H tags 8 out of the last 10 years. I returned one cause I was hurt and didn't apply the year I hunted the Paunsaugunt. Hope to get the tags in the future too, I bring the valuable intel, my new hunt buddies bring the points. Win/Win

When my hunt opportunity runs out, I'll probably still be scouting. If they pass laws to stop me, I'm sure an outfitter will hire me to find the best bucks to hunt. Like it or not, I put in the time and effort and do gather valuable information. It's not that easy to gather either.

And if all else fails, I'll go rock climbing, mountain bike a bit more and go to Lake Powell in the fall. Heck, I can't kill the bucks I want in WY anyway. Those expensive tags rarely get filled. Ha ha

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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[Triple_BB]

Founder, assuming you can come up with groups of five max points holders every year, have you tried to guess on a year when you might not see another G tag outside of the random draw? Would assume point creep will continue even with the bad winter and will likely be worse if they decrease tags for non rezi's...

 

[Founder]

I'm always telling my wife how I've got to make the most of my time and health while I can because my luck in getting tags in any state will run out. Plus, I hurt something about every year. Who knows when the body will fail for good.
But yes, I would guess in WY that what I have to offer to point holders will probably get me a tag for another 3-5 years. Maybe longer if H doesn't get too out of hand. I'm always looking for future hunting buddies who want a win/win deal. I have a lot to offer.
Of course that's if there's not a new "Founders Bill" trying to outlaw point sharing. Who knows on that.

Honestly though, I think I could be happy with no tag. I could still scout and still share what I find with clients of some sort and information of some sort.
I have lots of Utah elk points and a lifetime license in Utah, so I'd still have hunting opportunity. At least enough to satisfy me. I have so many other hobbies that I do actually miss while hunting every fall. I love our trips to Lake Powell and Moab. I wouldn't cry about doing more of that.
But for now, I like hunting where I can and love to venture through the western Wyoming high country with a backpack strapped on. If I can find bucks and for a few others who cover my costs to do it, I'm doing it. I don't see it as unethical or unsporting and for now, my opinion is what counts.
Maybe though this year will be my "run out of luck" year on a tag. Our group might not draw if they cut tags. We might need another to jump in and take advantage of my summer scouting time and better their odds.

Okay, enough rambling by me, after I fully answer the question.

I do expect point creep going forward. I do expect more tag cuts going forward. And I do expect a decrease in quality in western Wyoming from all the technologies that take their heavy toll and more local guys investing more time.

I think this year, it'll probably take 6 points in the special to draw. That's if they cut only 100 tags. If 200, then probably 6.5. Some think the winter will scare many people off, but I'm not so sure of that. Where else in Wyoming would they go? All the better unit got heavy weather. And I think many people are getting tired of buying points in Wyoming when some of the best hunting doesn't take all those points. The good thing is that regions G and H are really tough places to hunt. Not just anyone can go up there and enjoy it. You've got to be in backpacker shape or own horses. For best success, you got to scout or have me consult you on where to hunt. True big ones aren't everywhere.
It's a hard place to hunt. So that might continue to keep it in check a bit.

What do YOU think? How long can I find hunting buddies to apply with in exchange for valuable intel? Should I plan this years Lake Powell trip for September 15?

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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[PleaseDear]

Not everyone that applies with Brian and draws-- hunts with him.

Robb

 

[DoubleDropMuley]

Personally I have no problem with out of staters hunting another state. I'm building points in other states my self hoping to venture out one day. What I don't agree with is the amount of bighorn moose mnt goat tags that are reserved for nonres here in Wyoming. As far as point sharing no matter who gets the tags the same amount of tags are gonna be issued. I'd be more pissed if I was a nonres competing for those tags and I have points and another guy has 0 but buddies up with a point holder and he draws and I don't!!!

 

[DoubleDropMuley]

The other thing that bothers me is I had some utarrds casing my spring bear bait. Sticking there heads in my barrel and hanging around the site. If ya gonna come hunt respect other hunters and the land. I was about to send a 300 ultra mag missle into the barrel and make there heads ring but my damn luck I use plastic barrels lol!! Hope everyone gets the tags they apply for this year and get to enjoy some memorable times and harvest!! Good luck to all