Point Exchange?

Cretehorn · Mar 6, 2012

Knowing that sharing your thoughts and ideas with others is sometimes how things get accomplished or realized. That being said, I would like your opinion on transfering points in the state of Utah, or for that matter any state that has a point system.
Last year I had a 59 year old uncle that was diagnosed with cancer. After going through the promised process of chemo and radiation, he passed away 9 months later.My uncle had been an accomplished hunter, with many large mule deer, and decent elk added to his list of trophies. This being said, he left behind a shortened lifelong dream of hunting moose and a trophy Utah bull elk. Suddenly abandoning max preference points for Shiras Moose, and 13 points for elk.
Here is my thought... He left behind 2 sons, one who had been his hunting partner for many years. They had been putting in for these hunts together hoping that someday being able to draw these prized tags and continue the family tradition of spending time in the outdoors as a family. My cousin was slightly behind in the point creep, only having 7 moose points and 7 elk points. Would it be wrong for the Fish and Game to exchange the sons points for the fathers? Now that my uncle won't be using his points. Maybe easing the pain of losing a father unexpectedly just a bit.
I know the state is not in the "consoling" business, and I may have blinders on when it comes to the reality of the situation, because of it being a family member. Have any of you ever thought about this, or is it way out there? I'd like to hear your thoughts and feelings on this, positive and negative. And maybe the pros and cons to the structural side of this idea. You guys are a great group of guys and I enjoy this site. Thanks in advance for any suggestions on this topic. Cretehorn

orion23 · Mar 6, 2012

i see where you're coming from but id have to say that i dont like the idea.

why? well, there will be people taking advantage of the system. my grandparents are old, what if i started putting them all (4) of them in each year for each species just to build points for them so i could inherit them. this obviously isnt what you did, but can you see where this could go. then the younger generations even gets pushed farther from drawing any good tags.

interesting thought tho.

Travis
www.RidgelineOutdoors.com

TOPGUN · Mar 6, 2012

I doubt that it would ever fly because of too many problems it would create. It's too bad he didn't get to draw his tag, but I would say that there will be many cases where that will happen and to start transferring PPs would be a nightmare.

Zeke · Mar 6, 2012

I hate the idea. I have kids who would kill for my points... literally! LOL

Your heart is in the right place but I'm against it and my guess is that 90%+ of the points holders would be too. There are other ways to pay tribute without jacking the points system even more.

Point creep is bad enough without adding to the problem.

Zeke

theox · Mar 6, 2012

I can see your point but i dont think its a very realistic possibility. It just would not be right imo. sorry, on the upside the two brothers can apply together and avg out the points between the two, and hope to draw and hunt together someday in memory of their father but as far as point transfer... it wont and shouldnt happen imo

yatran · Mar 6, 2012

My dad put in again this year for Moose in Utah. He will likely never draw this permit. I would much rather see him shoot a moose then shoot one for him after he is gone. I'm sure your cousins would have rather seen your uncle hunt with those tags too. But, I get your point of years and years of points just vanishing. The flip side to this argument is that I have been putting in for desert sheep forever and the only way I will ever draw is if half of the people in front of me die. Sounds a bit cold, but it is the truth. Look at it this way. say there is an old time hunter, been around forever let's call him Zeeke (no reference to anyone on this board) but real old, I mean ancient, well let's say has been putting in for Big horn sheep for 18 years, then he kicks the bucket and passes the points to his son who hunts once in a while but has never decided to put in the OIL draws, or maybe has put in for one point 3 years ago on a whim. Now he gets his dads points and leapfrogs over everybody that has put in diligently every year for years and years. Like I said, I like the sentiment but overall a bad idea.

Huntmaster · Mar 6, 2012

I feel they should allow a hunters to move personal once in a lifetime points to different species. (I still don't know why this hasn't been passed and accepted). Most of us will never get a chance at a once in a lifetime tag if not. I see your point on loved ones passing away, however it would be a nightmare to manage. It does seem fair though if the person paid for the points, it makes sense they could will them to a specified family member and they should get to use them. The way point creep is going i will have to will my points to my sons now to get them a tag.

HuntinFool · Mar 6, 2012

My dad had 13 elk points when he passed away. I had 0 limited entry points, because I was not old enough to put in for limited entry yet. I do not think that points should be passed on for all the reasons mentioned above.

Outdoors · Mar 6, 2012

If you allow points earned by multiple persons to aggregate with another person then you are going to see people "game" the system.

Wasn't Utah where grandma would build up points then apply as part of party then turn her tag in and get her points back...then repeat each year? Probably the intent of the Utah rule was when a person with a tag could not hunt then the "fair" thing was to reinstate their points.

If points become transferrable then non-hunting elderly will start building up points.

If you think a kid starting out in Wyoming building sheep points is at the back of a very long line then imagine if half the kids "inherit" points jump ahead 10 years.

Fairest way seems to be points do not transfer. My 2 cents.

ElmerFudd · Mar 6, 2012

Just have to keep in mind that points are no guarentee of anything. You can die or the state can change the rules before you draw. They lock out late commers and odds are most systems for long wait hunts will be changed someday when enough have nots complain. All attempts to make a more "Fair" tag distribution system are going to be unfair to someone when demand far exceeds supply. Oh well, apply and take your chances and hope is all you can do....

Cretehorn · Mar 7, 2012

Thanks for the thoughts and comments guys. My original thinking was to help avoid the point creep. The cousin with 7 points, would lose his points, eliminating him or his points from the system. Then he would acquire his fathers points, hopefully having him draw those tags that much faster, and then taking two guys out of those draws quicker, eventually killing to stones with one bird. I'd figured it would be hard to regulate, I was only trying to play Obama and create more jobs.

You guys brought up some awesome points that I didn't even consider. I was just thinking about my family at the time. I guess if everybody's family was doing it, plus you throw in the dishonest few, things could get really complicated. I guess I'll scratch this from my list of things to worry about. Life goes on. Thanks again.

swbuckmaster · Mar 7, 2012

No

400bull · Mar 7, 2012

Two years ago my wives grandmother passed away. After her passing my wives extended family has gone from a family that did everything with each other too now disowning each other. Why you may ask. Simply because they have been fighting over every nickel and dime they can get. After seeing what my wives family has gone through I could see this being a big problem in families that have multiple members that are dedicated hunters. Who gets the points!...... I say NO to transferring points.

400bull

DoeNob · Mar 7, 2012

No way.

BUT - I believe wyoming allows you to transfer a tag to an immediate family member. So if you've been putting in for sheep forever and finally draw but are too old to go, you can send your son or daughter with your tag. THAT I like.

swbuckmaster · Mar 7, 2012

Hell no to that as well

swbuckmaster · Mar 7, 2012

If you want to see serious point creep go ahead and allow this bs

TOPGUN · Mar 7, 2012

Doenob---I don't know where you heard that about Wyoming because to the best of my knowledge the only tag that can be transferred is to a disabled Veteran and then an organization helps that person on the hunt. Wyoming has up to 25 deer, 25 antelope, 25 elk, and 25 turkey licenses that kids under 20 with life threatening illnesses can qualify for and then organizations generally help the kids on those hunts too. I'm not aware of any transferral of tags to relatives like you mentioned in your post.

AAA · Mar 7, 2012

Here's my take but it may be biased because of my situation as well. If you pay for something, do you not own it? Or own the right to it? A bonus point does not have a cash value, I'm aware of that, but it is "owned to a person, a department ID".

I recently read a HuntinFool store in which an Arizona man passed away and WILLED his permit he had already obtained to his grandson. Maybe the G&F is opening up this can of worms for us. Placing a permit in your will for transfer after your departure from this life?

People can complain what they want about point creep, more young people having points, etc.. But the reality is, if you pay $10 a year for a bonus/preference point, you own the rights to that. Maybe you should be able to will it to a child or grandchild. I personally feel it's more fair to those that have passed on to make use of their years of waiting and funds than to throw it away and say it's not fair for their family to have more.

My grandfather has 10 moose points for Utah, he's running off an electric heart pump and just the other day said he doesnt feel he will make it to the hunting season this year even if he did draw. Now what do you do?

ElmerFudd · Mar 7, 2012

In the event of death or disabilitating illness to the permitee, I think the permit should be returnable to the fish and game department for a full refund, and the fish and game department should offer it to the applicant who was next in line in the draw... I know that is not how it works, but I feel that's the way it should be.....

theox · Mar 7, 2012

>In the event of death or
>disabilitating illness to the permitee,
>I think the permit should
>be returnable to the fish
>and game department for a
>full refund, and the fish
>and game department should offer
>it to the applicant who
>was next in line in
>the draw... I know that
>is not how it works,
>but I feel that's the
>way it should be.....

that is how it works

TOPGUN · Mar 7, 2012

AAA---A person buys the PPs for themselves and they, and they alone,have the right to them. Unless the law allows for transferral of them to a relative or someone else, a will would not take precedence over the law.

swbuckmaster · Mar 7, 2012

There is already enough people abusing the point system with putting in grandma grandpa wives or brothers that don't hunt in group applications. the last thing we need is for them to be able to will those points away for another generation to abuse them.

Foxskinner · Mar 8, 2012

I'm not sure I agree with you "owning the rights" to a bonus point. This is how I see the draw system. It is like buying tickets to a raffle or a lottery ticket. You are buying a chance to draw something special. That is the whole reason we all do it. I have 5 moose points. My family didn't hunt much and I didn't learn about OIL or LE tag draws until a couple years ago. I put in every year knowing the odds are stacked way against me. I also am willing to pay the ten bucks knowing that there is that one in a million chance of drawing. "So you are saying there is a chance!" That's it. People put in for all kinds of drawings or lotteries for that rare and uncertain chance. Nothing is guaranteed. If your time expires before you draw, then you are out of the game. I want to hunt but wouldn't take advantage of someone else in order to hunt. Just my opinion.