POOR MANAGEMENT SHOWING!!!

>That is the worst bet ever.
>?Quite a noticeable difference? and
>?if every bull is aged.?
>
>
>That is like saying, ?Elkass, I
>will bet you 1 million
>dollars that the average size
>bull killed in the Books
>was over 400 inches, but
>only if every bull killed
>was taken to an official
>B&C scorer after the requisite
>drying period.?
>
>Oh, and the sky can't be
>blue tomorrow either. You in?
>
>
>It's all good Bessy. At least
>we all know now that
>even you don't believe your
>own very strong statements and
>criticism on this one. Knowing
>that, I won't need to
>pay quite as close of
>attention. Too bad they had
>a rough year out on
>the Books. I hope it
>can bounce back for the
>hunters in waiting.

I've Told You Several F'N Times I Don't know the Exact Numbers!

But I Am Willing to Bet whatever amount You wanna Bet!

And Yes If I Lose you're gettin Paid!

This Just Didn't Happen this Year Niller!

It's been coming for several years & Some of us could see it!

Don't know what your F'N Problem is?

You Don't like Accepting the F'N Facts I take it?

If the DWR doesn't Sugar Coat it you're gonna see some lower Numbers of Kills & age Class way Lower than you've seen it in a while!











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Hey Niller!

One More Thing!

What Took Years To F'K Up Ain't gonna Bounce back by next year!

"Bounce Back" JUDAS F'N PRIEST!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-18 AT 01:44PM (MST)[p]Bessy, I've got no problem. I just call out irrational thinking when I see it. Im not sure how rational your thinking is here because you won't put out numbers or predictions to support what you're claiming. Just general abstract statements ?of fact? that are not specific or even verifiable.

Again, im not much of a gambler, but even if I was I'm still not sure what we'd be betting on. And when you say ?facts,? what facts are you talking about?

You rant and rave and when called out to give a prediction to support your rants, you won't give it. Then just attack me, when all I've ever done is post objective data and ask you where it will be different.

Spell out the parameters of the bet, and I'll consider if it's worth thinking about. What are the ?facts? here you are asserting?

I guess what I'm saying here is this: Put up or shut up. With all due respect, and bless your heart, of course...
 
>LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-18
>AT 01:44?PM (MST)
>
>Bessy, I've got no problem. I
>just call out irrational thinking
>when I see it. Im
>not sure how rational your
>thinking is here because you
>won't put out numbers or
>predictions to support what you're
>claiming. Just general abstract statements
>?of fact? that are not
>specific or even verifiable.
>
>Again, im not much of a
>gambler, but even if I
>was I'm still not sure
>what we'd be betting on.
>And when you say ?facts,?
>what facts are you talking
>about?
>
>You rant and rave and when
>called out to give a
>prediction to support your rants,
>you won't give it. Then
>just attack me, when all
>I've ever done is post
>objective data and ask you
>where it will be different.
>
>
>Spell out the parameters of the
>bet, and I'll consider if
>it's worth thinking about. What
>are the ?facts? here you
>are asserting?
>
>I guess what I'm saying here
>is this: Put up or
>shut up. With all due
>respect, and bless your heart,
>of course...


If I may propose some reasonable terms for this wager. Let's translate elkass's general claims of noticeable decline into statistics and say that elkass would win if the 2018 age data on both units in the bookcliffs is more than two standard deviations below the mean average age for 2014-2017. That would be a statistically significant outlier. Vanilla would win if the average age is at or above two standard deviations below the mean for 2014-2017 in either unit. All age data used will be from the UDWR's reported numbers, which means it will be at least a year from now before a winner can be crowned.

Its objective, straightforward, and independently verifiable. Of course, for those very reasons it should outright offend the delicate spiders on these interwebs.

For the 2014-2016 numbers, the average age of harvest was 7.71 with a standard deviation of .297 years for the Bittercreek and 7.567 yrs and standard deviation of .432 for Little Creek. assuming 2017 data didn't alter anything that would require an average age of less than 7.12 years for the Bittercreek and 6.7 years for Little Creek.

and....go
 
>LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-18
>AT 01:44?PM (MST)
>
>Bessy, I've got no problem. I
>just call out irrational thinking
>when I see it. Im
>not sure how rational your
>thinking is here because you
>won't put out numbers or
>predictions to support what you're
>claiming. Just general abstract statements
>?of fact? that are not
>specific or even verifiable.
>
>Again, im not much of a
>gambler, but even if I
>was I'm still not sure
>what we'd be betting on.
>And when you say ?facts,?
>what facts are you talking
>about?
>
>You rant and rave and when
>called out to give a
>prediction to support your rants,
>you won't give it. Then
>just attack me, when all
>I've ever done is post
>objective data and ask you
>where it will be different.
>
>
>Spell out the parameters of the
>bet, and I'll consider if
>it's worth thinking about. What
>are the ?facts? here you
>are asserting?
>
>I guess what I'm saying here
>is this: Put up or
>shut up. With all due
>respect, and bless your heart,
>of course...


Hey Niller!

I've told you many times I Don't Have or know the Exact Numbers!

Have I Not tried getting that through Your Thick F'N Scull?

The Elk Hunting for Quality Bulls in the Book Cliffs SUCKED this year!

Yes there was a couple Big Bulls Harvested!

It Didn't Happen JUST because of the Drought,Surely the Drought added to it though!

When You Over Hunt the Spikes & Cows in a Unit do you know WTF eventually Happens?

Have You ever heard of the Anthro Unit?

The Spikes are the Future Big Bulls!

If You F'N let them Grow past Age 2!

The Spike Slaughter in the Book Cliffs is a Real F'N JOKE!

It's been showing the last few years!

It really Showed this year!

There are some Martin Guys and their friends out of Vernal that Hunt the Book Cliffs every year for Quality Bulls!

Since You F'N Don't Believe Me maybe you should talk with them Guys & have them tell you how this years hunt compared to previous years!

I Talked to a Guy that Spent His Points on the Book Cliffs Elk Unit this year that shot a PISSCUTTER 5 Point,said it was 2nd best Bull he seen!

Talked with many other Hunters that were very disappointed!

I Know the Guy that has the Premium Elk Tag in the Book Cliffs,You want his Number?

I've been out there a few times Myself & noticed a big change from just a few years ago!

And I have seen it changing yearly!

They didn't Harvest as many Quality Bulls in the Book Cliffs this year!

The Truth F'N Hurts!

So admit it!

Or check it out for yourself!

The Bet still stands if you wanna make the Wager?

I 'm not Claiming I know the Exact Numbers because I don't Know & Neither does anyone else yet!

But I do know enough to know this Unit did not Produce Quality Bulls like it should have due to PISS POOR Management of an LE Unit!

I'm Saying there's a noticeable Difference in Quality Harvest if the Truth is Shown!

You Bettin or You PUSSIN Out on the Deal?











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
I had the late wasatch and it was better than it has been in my lifetime (I am not a young fella either).

Unreal amount of elk and what I would refer to as shooter bulls (340 plus) were plentiful.

I have not seen so many cows on the wasatch for year.

I do agree the elk get pressure from archery to the end of January, but the wasatch herd is doing AMAZING!!!
 
I've heard a lot of that about the Wasatch this year. Funny, because they've shot a TON more elk on that unit than any other, and here we are.

Maybe the DWR isn't stupid after all?
 
Okay I had Archery elk tag in 2016 we ran trail cameras from June till the end of the hunt we had about 70 bulls on 9 cameras running we had plenty of bulls but only 2 that went the 350 mark I came home with nothing I could of killed rag horns and a few 310 320 bulls but I already have a 330 bull that I shot on public land and I should of been able to kill a bigger one but the quality wasn't there and I covered a lot of country I spent over 20 days hunting it and spent probably more scouting it was a fun hunt definitely an experience of a life time but it is not being manage properly

Now this year 2018 was even worse I knew of 5 people that had elk tags for BOOK CLIFFS only one killed and it was a 300 inch bull on the archery hunt and the biggest one out there that was seen between all 5 hunters was a 350 class bull and that bull got killed during the rifle hunt,there was over 30 cameras running between all 5 hunters and they had a total of 40 bulls and there was only a hand full 310 range this was the same area that I hunted there is a problem with this unit it's really sad to see it go down so bad in 2 years

They need STOP hunting spikes or cut back on tags on every unit there killing off too many of are future bulls I agree with ELKASSASSIN

The other big problem is throwing a rifle bull elk hunt during the rut we are the only state that does it.

I seen it first hand every year during the rifle elk hunt one camp killed 16 elk this year by driving around 4 where cows and the rest where bulls on public land of course and me and my boy killed are bulls driving around also I have done this for 20 plus years and always killed an elk

rifle hunting is easy but why does the LE elk hunt need to be in the rut It's an easy hunt I've been out in the LE units during the rifle hunt and called lots of bulls in within 100 yards to the truck with me sitting right by it and they where good bulls try that during the Archery hunt you can't I know I've tried it

I KNOW IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY
 
>Okay I had Archery elk tag
>in 2016 we ran trail
>cameras from June till the
>end of the hunt we
>had about 70 bulls on
>9 cameras running we had
>plenty of bulls but only
>2 that went the 350
>mark I came home with
>nothing I could of killed
>rag horns and a few
>310 320 bulls but I
>already have a 330 bull
>that I shot on public
>land and I should of
>been able to kill a
>bigger one but the quality
>wasn't there and I covered
>a lot of country I
>spent over 20 days hunting
>it and spent probably more
>scouting it was a fun
>hunt definitely an experience of
>a life time but it
>is not being manage properly
>
>
>Now this year 2018 was even
>worse I knew of 5
>people that had elk tags
>for BOOK CLIFFS only one
>killed and it was a
>300 inch bull on the
>archery hunt and the biggest
>one out there that was
>seen between all 5 hunters
>was a 350 class bull
>and that bull got killed
>during the rifle hunt,there was
>over 30 cameras running between
>all 5 hunters and they
>had a total of 40
>bulls and there was only
>a hand full 310 range
>this was the same area
>that I hunted there is
>a problem with this unit
>it's really sad to see
>it go down so bad
>in 2 years
>
>They need STOP hunting spikes or
>cut back on tags on
>every unit there killing off
>too many of are future
>bulls I agree with ELKASSASSIN
>
>
>The other big problem is throwing
>a rifle bull elk hunt
>during the rut we are
>the only state that does
>it.
>
>I seen it first hand every
>year during the rifle elk
>hunt one camp killed 16
>elk this year by driving
>around 4 where cows and
>the rest where bulls on
>public land of course and
>me and my boy killed
>are bulls driving around also
>I have done this for
>20 plus years and always
>killed an elk
>
> rifle hunting is easy but
>why does the LE elk
>hunt need to be in
>the rut It's an easy
>hunt I've been out in
>the LE units during the
>rifle hunt and called lots
>of bulls in within 100
>yards to the truck with
>me sitting right by it
>and they where good bulls
>try that during the Archery
>hunt you can't I know
>I've tried it
>
>I KNOW IT'S ALL ABOUT THE
>MONEY

Another Sportsman that get's out in to the Woods & See's First Hand of what's going on!

Thanks Elkslayer2015!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Pretty sad to be reading this.I grew up hunting the books. It was the only place I hunted deer until they went to the draw. I drew the deer tag the second year it reopened. Dad drew it the next year. So I believe that was 2003. Haven't been back since but it's still my fondest place I've ever hunted. I left the state in 2006 for better outdoor opportunities in Montana. Soo...14 elk points..5 deer points, 4 antelope points, bison. The only reason I keep giving money to the state of Utah is because of a place called the book cliffs. I have no desire to cache in points on another unit. Is the deer herd quality sliding too?
 
>Pretty sad to be reading this.I
>grew up hunting the books.
>It was the only place
>I hunted deer until they
>went to the draw. I
>drew the deer tag the
>second year it reopened. Dad
>drew it the next year.
>So I believe that was
>2003. Haven't been back since
>but it's still my fondest
>place I've ever hunted. I
>left the state in 2006
>for better outdoor opportunities in
>Montana. Soo...14 elk points..5 deer
>points, 4 antelope points, bison.
>The only reason I keep
>giving money to the state
>of Utah is because of
>a place called the book
>cliffs. I have no desire
>to cache in points on
>another unit. Is the deer
>herd quality sliding too?

Hey Hnttillmt!

Rather than Re-Typing click on this Link!

This was During the Rut & The only Bucks we seen were Bucks nobody would Shoot during Season and they were doing the Breeding!

Never Seen a Buck We'd even think about Shooting!

SAD!

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID6/27644.html









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Well thanks for the heads. Thank God for all the opportunity that abounds in surrounding states, if your one to have the luxury and means to take advantage of that. My friends in Utah that I'm still in contact with have been so disgusted with the management for years.I will hunt the book cliffs again someday, at this point I'm just hoping it is while I can still take my dad with me. I know you that will be the greatest trophy of the hunt ..oh the stories that will be relived. Unfortunately I feel point creep will shut us down.
 
we don't need to cut tags at all we could add tags on all the LE units we could add a lot more on archery and on muzzleloader that have spike hunts but in order to do this we either Quit killing spikes or come up with a plan to manage them better so we can add more tags because there will be more bulls

Look at the Monroe they just passed opening spike hunting back up they closed it 4 years ago from what they just said so they started adding more tags 3 years ago because they need to bring it down to the age objective which is 6.5 but it's still producing 7.3 age class bulls there was 27 permits 3 years ago and now its 37 permits and there 8% over objective so they could still add more tags.....

So mark my words this will drop and they will be cutting tags in 5 years or less because of the spike hunt.....
 
Utah?s management of its elk herd is really sad. There is so much lost opportunity for hunters. Pretty much all the other western states are providing much more opportunity with many providing just as good quality with the only difference being the season structure. Is hunting them in the rut with a gun really worth all the lost opportunity? I guess if you only need to scratch the itch once every 20 years then maybe so but it seems like a waste to me.

Mike
 
Everything I'm hearing about the Wasatch was it was the best season in 10 years.

And you think giving opportunity to archers and taking it away from rifle hunters is increased opportunity? Hmmm....
 
Yes.... I do think that is increased opportunity. There is a reason why guys want to hunt them during the rut and it is not because it is challenging. I think it has more to do with being able pick out the one you want hanging over the fireplace.
I'm not saying that no other state allows some limited rifle during the rut but Utah is the only state that tilts everything in favor of the gun hunter. And if you are going to do that AND maintain so kind of quality .... then yes, you have to severely limit opportunity.
Utah has the herd and habitat to be the best elk hunting state.... but it chooses to be something significantly less.
Mike
 
Giving them the rut yes the way it should be it's a lot harder to kill them with a bow and muzzleloader than a rifle

look at it this way if we take the archery hunt the less successful hunt and start it at the last weekend of August and end it the 3rd Friday of September you can add a lot more tags and the success will still be low.

Then start the muzzleloader hunt that Saturday of the 3rd weekend of September and run it for the same amount of days that it currently runs and add more tags there.

Then start the rifle hunt and run it for a week these bulls will still be running with the cows during this time anyways and they still will be talking and you can still find them it's no different than general season bull elk hunt you can add tags here also

I know a lot of people that are putting in for rifle said they would switch to archery If the dates where during the rut your freeing up multiple opportunity by doing it this will help the points creep.

guess what I was one of them I had 12 LE rifle points and I have killed a lot of elk in the last 20 years with a rifle I wanted a challenge so I switched to archery in 2016 and got the tag and I knew the hunt would end on the 16 of September I knew the rut would be just getting started and it did somewhat I came home with my tag in my pocket it was still fun hunt though I wouldn't of traded it for nothing.


But in order for all this to work the spike hunt needs to be gone or manage it better.

I thought of something I don't know how this would work but what if we pick 2 spike units shut them down for one year and then open it back up and shut another 2 down for one year and keep doing this on all the spike units on a year to year bases the spike hunters happy they will just have to find which unit is open I think by doing this it will bring are herds back up and the quality will be there just a thought
 
I don't know about the rest of Utah but the fish and duck have ruined northeastern Utah .use to have quality game .now we have none .
 
>Giving them the rut yes the
>way it should be it's
>a lot harder to kill
>them with a bow and
>muzzleloader than a rifle
>
>look at it this way if
>we take the archery hunt
>the less successful hunt and
>start it at the last
>weekend of August and end
>it the 3rd Friday of
>September you can add a
>lot more tags and the
>success will still be low.
>
>
>Then start the muzzleloader hunt that
>Saturday of the 3rd weekend
>of September and run it
>for the same amount of
>days that it currently runs
>and add more tags there.
>
>
>Then start the rifle hunt and
>run it for a week
>these bulls will still be
>running with the cows during
>this time anyways and they
>still will be talking and
>you can still find them
>it's no different than general
>season bull elk hunt you
>can add tags here also
>
>
>I know a lot of people
>that are putting in for
>rifle said they would switch
>to archery If the dates
>where during the rut your
>freeing up multiple opportunity by
>doing it this will help
>the points creep.
>
>guess what I was one of
>them I had 12 LE
>rifle points and I have
>killed a lot of elk
>in the last 20 years
>with a rifle I wanted
>a challenge so I switched
>to archery in 2016 and
>got the tag and I
>knew the hunt would end
>on the 16 of September
>I knew the rut would
>be just getting started and
>it did somewhat I came
>home with my tag in
>my pocket it was still
>fun hunt though I wouldn't
>of traded it for nothing.
>
>
>
>But in order for all this
>to work the spike hunt
>needs to be gone or
>manage it better.
>
> I thought of something I
>don't know how this would
>work but what if we
>pick 2 spike units shut
>them down for one year
>and then open it back
>up and shut another 2
>down for one year and
>keep doing this on all
>the spike units on a
>year to year bases the
>spike hunters happy they will
>just have to find which
>unit is open I think
>by doing this it will
>bring are herds back up
>and the quality will be
>there just a thought

You started the Paragraph out Right:

"The Spike Hunt needs to be GONE"!

I've Tried/Suggested for Years to get a couple of Spike/Cow Units going!

Slaughter as You F'N Please!

But when them 2 Units are F'Ed Up You're Done!

Don't come BAWLING & Don't let them in LE Units just because they destroyed them 2 Units!

They'll never make change enough to Fix things!

$$$!

$$$!

$$$!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 

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