HJB, I would have agreed with you a few short years ago. But now in Utah, most of our Premier Elk units (the ones that have been producing the monsters in the past) have all been mis-managed with unlimited Spike hunting and over-harvesting of the trophy bulls. Doyle's hunters kill most of the big ones that show up, and a few other hunters kill the rest. I don't hear of any bulls dieing of old age any more. In fact, the tooth data shows a substantial decrease in the age of harvested bulls.