Re: NR tags

joesikora

Long Time Member
Messages
3,313
Re: NR tags

Ok I don't want to start a sh@t storm but NM is the first and only western state
I've ever hunted and it pains me that we as NR can barely draw a tag. I love the state, the people, the hunting. But I think the NR are flipping the bill for the state
to run NMGF.
Another thing is the National Forest are owned by all the people
not just the residents in that state so I think the R should have to pay the same
tag prices as the NR.
I know JRWC worked his butt off trying to help the NR when these changes
were made, so thanks Jim.
I know I'm a few years late on this topic but I was busy LOL!

As always thanks for letting me vent your Amigo Joe.

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you think their right"

-Joe E Sikora
 
Oilcan I hope not. But you're probably right LOL!
Now the people that know me on here will understand what I trying to say but
you know how it is!

Thanks for your support (I hope that's what it was??) LOL ! Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you think their right"

-Joe E Sikora
 
Oilcan what are you doing up this early it's 3:54 am in beautiful downtown Collinsville IL ( that's just 15 minutes east of St Louis MO) For all you home gamers who don't know where Collinsville IL is! LMAO! I think I losing it.

Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you think their right"

-Joe E Sikora
 
Well it's 2:15 A.M. here in California.I'm at work wishing i was at home in Bed oh well off in 3 more hours.
 
Oh and i don't want to admit i'm showing support because i'd be the next one getting a new one ripped.LOL
 
NM does not give enough NR tags for them to fund the G&F. I am a resident and I agree that they should give more NR tags. I don't know why they don't make it 10% like everywhere else. The guided pool is just absurd...on par with Wyomings wilderness law.

-I have fought tougher men, but I really can't remember when-
 
Same song, different day. Forest is owned by the public, the animals by the state. I don't have much opinion on tags, but agree that the wilderness guide law in Wyoming is bunk (as a Wyoming resident).
 
+1 Joe. Havent applied in NM in 4 yrs.
That Guide Pool is just Politics and needs to be done away with!!
 
I would love to get a good Mule Deer hunt in NM but im in so deep into the other states and the points chase I dont think my budjet or my nerves could handle it.I haven't hunted NM since before was a draw. We hunted east of Reserve and also north of Bloomfield. Still have good memories of those days. Didnt seem to have much controversy back then.
 
While I'm not familiar with applying for out-of-state hunting (simply put, I can't afford to-yet), I do have a simple opinion on the subject.

I believe the R vs NR tags game is a difficult one for every state to manage. On the one hand, you have tens of thousands of residents who want to hunt locally every year (or close to it) in their own back yard. And on the other, you have dedicated sportsmen from around the world who want to come and partake of the fruit that is Western Big Game Hunting.

It seems the simplest solution is money. If you are a non-resident and have money, it doesn't really matter. But us Average Joe's can't jump to the head of the line. It seems that a general concensus is that 10% of all tags being reserved for NR hunters is a pretty good compromise. That number is pretty low, so if there is a state that allots less tags than that, I'd have to agree it is too few.

This coming from a Utahn, who has waited 11 years for a LE Deer tag- which is the shortest wait to get into the Bonus Tags in the state. sheesh

Good luck in your draw this year Joe..!!

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-14 AT 01:19PM (MST)[p]Not every NR is from out-of-state. By that I mean they were born in-state then moved off to college, military, or career but still like to visit "home" and hunt. Also, some of us marry "outsiders" and take them away from their home. My wife likes to hunt back home, too.

So, I ask you to screw over the NR a bit less when you are gathering up the pitchforks and cut a few less tires at the trailheads.
 
Hi Outdoors did someone ever flatten your tires or mess with your stuff at a Trailhead? Is so pray to J I'd never find someone doing that. That's way out of line, and I'm sure everyone on here would totally agree.

BrowningRage I have 10 points this year in Utah, I know there's a few units I
can get but the last few years I started drawing for the tougher tags I figure what the heck someone has to draw them right? I seen where a NR drew a Desert Big Horn Sheep tag with 0 points a few years ago.

Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you think their right"

-Joe E Sikora
 
>Oilcan what are you doing up
>this early it's 3:54 am
>in beautiful downtown Collinsville IL
>( that's just 15 minutes
>east of St Louis MO)
>For all you home gamers
>who don't know where Collinsville
>IL is! LMAO!

I know where it is. :) I inspect the Collinsville post office and all the others nearby as a part of my job. In fact I even drew a turkey permit and will be hunting nearby Chouteau Island in April.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & DP Hate Club
 
Joe,

I appreciate your support of NR tags and some of the outfitters in NM. It is kind of rare on these hunting forums to get that kind of support.

Jim of JWRC fame is our newest board member on the NMCOG and is one of the more reputable outfitters in business in NM along with 240 other outfitters among which are 60 outfitters from out of state, most from neighboring AZ and Co and TX. Also 3 are from NY state 2 from KS and the rest from MI,TN,, NJ, Ut, WA, WY, MO and Mt.

A big share of these non resident outfitters come to NM becasue of the opportunities the landowner authorization system allows for. Also the famous Gila region that produces big bulls and Catron County, NM being #1 in P&Y entries of elk in North America, brings these outfitters into the trophy units in the Gila. There no exclusive guide areas here in NM and AZ for the most part and it is wide open and you will find much outfitter pressure and competition for these chance to kill a big Gila bull.

Our NM Council of Outfitters and Guides NMCOG was primarily responsible in gaining a fair share of the elk tags for NR hunters back several years when the Council decided that to be professional businesses' we needed the State and the NMGFD to regulate our industry because as our elk herds exploded and big bulls started coming from here, and the Spotted Owl put much of work force out of work, and as a result we had a huge influx of outfitters. The archery elk tags were very easy to draw and even the rifle permits were plentiful and life was good for resident hunters and non-resident hunters alike.

As the elk herds exploded from the Yellowstone transplants in the mid 1960's (there-to-fore were no to few elk) and moved down into the low lands and spread out west into Arizona and down to the Burro Mtn.s and north all the way to towards Gallup. All the ranchers and livestock grazers and the small farmers especially alfalfa growers were hit very hard by this huge growth of elk. Many conflicts between the burgeoning elk herds and the landowners started erupting into ugly situations.

In 1990 I was honored to be a part of the Gila National Forest Elk/Livestock Task Force. We worked hard to figure out how to help these ranchers and small farmers in and around the Gila National Forest and we made big inroads into making the elk welcome on the forest grazing allotments and down in the riparian and farms where the elk spent most of the spring and early summer.

Thus the NM "landowner authorization" system was instituted to help alleviate the growing conflicts. By law NM couldn't directly pay for wildlife damages so a system was devised to basically compensate these landowners for providing much of the vital habitat needed for a new and growing elk herd.

Many of us in the whole industry worked together for many years changing, tweaking and making the landowner authorization system fair and equitable. In a very short period, as the elk herds continued to increase, and the landowners started getting some financial return for putting up with the elk, we have seen a big win for all sportsmen resident and non resident alike as now most of the landowners were actually liking elk and helping in the vitally needed conservation measures to provide our elk with a good relativley new home here in SW NM. The ranchers now have money to keep up the huge amount of fences the elk were tearing down as well as the landowners are keeping all of the waters up and running, pipelines and drinkers and dirt tanks(stock ponds to you northerners).

It has been a win--win situation for the landowner, the elk and the sportsmen and even the wildlife viewers. Those landowners with riparian and irrigated pasture and especially alfalfa fields were, and many are still hit hard with elk, but most of us have learned to live with them. I have anywhere from 30-60 elk on my irrigated fields(55 acres) that I pasture my string of outfitter horses and mules on, for over four months, from April 1- July 30 every year. I like them and want them and live with them. Some landowners have opted to have the NMGFD high fence their lands and there are many in the Reserve, Aragon and several places that decided they couldn't put op with the elk, so they high fenced. The NMGFD instituted a $10 depredation fee several years ago and this is now built into the license fees paid for by all hunters, and they use this money among other thing to high fence out those landowners whom would rather raise livestock than elk.

Long story short the NMCOG has worked hard to clean up the outfitting business and gain the trust and confidence of the resident hunters. We also have worked hard to protect our industries interests and we especially work hard to keep a fair share of opportunity for our non-resident hunters. Our original compromise in instituting the quota bill was set at 22% going to NR's, with 10% for non guided and 12% for guided NR's. This worked good for several years.

Then SB-196 was put into play by the NMWF and the UBNM and we saw many changes too lengthy to explain here, such as outfitter residency requirements to enter NR's into the outfitter pool of licenses., all public draw cow elk tags going to resident hunters, all NMGFD WMA's (Wildlife Management Areas) hunts going only to resident hunters, the new hunting license that non resident hunters pay $65 for and residents pay $15. These fees were' instituted as a direct result of the SB-196 and the resulting huge loss of income to the Game Dept. for loss of NR monies. they had to make up their budget money by doing this. Now the better elk tags are $780 plus the $65 hunting license for a total of $845 for NR and the resident pays $91 plus $15 for a total of $106. Nr's pay $739 more than a resident to hunt bull elk in NM.

In the end our industry fought hard to keep all we could for the NR hunters. We compromised at 16% public draw tags going to NR's, with 6% going to NR"s not using an outfitter and 10% to the outfitter pool. (residents can apply in this pool also)

Now we are slammed hard by a growing bunch of hunters for being subsidized. NM ios slammed hard and un-fairly for it landowner authorization system.

There are no guarantees in this system as in my case in the Gila Wilderness unit 16B on the three archery hunts there are 13 tags for each hunt and for the two rifle hunts there are 16 tags each hunt going into the outfitted pool. With approximately 12 outfitters applying hunters into those hunts the odds for me to draw a hunter is not very good. Last year I applied probably 40 hunters and drew only 2 fully outfitted archery hunters, one in 1st and one in 3rd season, and 2 in the 1st rifle season. We drew a few drop camp hunters that mostly went into the 6% NR non outfitted pool and they booked with me after the drawing.

I dearly love and want to outfit in the Gila Wilderness as I have my investment in the best mountain horses and mules of anyone in the business and have been hunting in there for forty years and almost 30 years professionally. Every year as the demand grows for these premium trophy bull elk tags in some of the most rugged and beautiful country in the world it is harder for me to justify feeding my horses an mules and maintaining my wilderness equipment. I don't even own an ATV. My investment is in my good stock some of which are half drafts horses from the Peace River Country of Alberta Canada Now I am almost forced into joinng the ranks of the other outfitters out in the roaded units. the competition for those outfitted tags are even more fierce. So for the average hunter resident or non resident to cry that the outfitters are subsidized don't even know how the system works.

The demand for the better trophy bull elk units here in the Gila Region is absolutely tremendous and so their is so much jealousy among all groups resident and non residents alike.

The NR hunters need to pay attention as we think the NMWF and the UBNM will be coming at you in January of 2015 with their desire to take NM into the 90/10 mythical split that basically only AZ has. AZ only has less than 1/3 of the elk that NM has.

You can count on the 70+ members of the NMCOG to continue to help protect the best possible amount of opportunity for NR's as possible.

Thank you Joe Sikora for bringing up this sore subject. We cannot and will not give up our efforts to make hunting equitable for all no matter where you live.
 
This is just a hello Joe. I live 75 miles from you on Hwy 3 South of Chester. I agree with you about the national lands but realize that the states control the hunting inside their borders and spend most of the money on law enforcement and such. It would be difficult to come up with a fair system. It is frustrating to have to apply for as much as 20 years to get a tag. I find ways to go West each year and have maybe a couple of really great hunts in a lifetime. The system thins the ranks of hunters who go to the trouble and those who just stay home.Here is the conundrum we live in the greatest country ever and the most screwed up.If you would like to compare hunting notes email me at [email protected]
Good Hunting
 
stoney, OF COURSE you support the Non-Resident hunter in New Mexico. Don't hurt your arm with the back-patting. mtmuley
 
Hi John I use to run up and down RT 3 all the time going to hunt geese and ducks at Union County state hunting ground in Ware IL.

I'll be in touch with you. Talk some hunting.
Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you think their right"

-Joe E Sikora
 

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