See What You Are Up Against? - SFW

[AZWALKER]

ASB,

Here's big biggest line of bull we have been fed:

Money equals conservation.

Money is not always the answer. Participation matters a heck of alot more than money in true conservation efforts. 20 guys on the ground at a water project goes alot farther than $1000.00. We saw what participation can do when a bad bill comes along. I don't think sportsmen had to spend much to stop HB2072... if anything.

Now I will say that when you go to fight a trapping ban or road closures or a national monument designation, money is needed and thats where we need to step up with the fianances. But... do we even have the ability at this point to communicate with average sportsmen on a grand scale? Do we even have a way of letting them know whats happening or to ask them for help? And... most importantly... do they care?

I'm sure there are alot of great ideas out there but until we can involve the vast, silent majority... we are getting to a point of inbreeding. We're bouncing this stuff around the same 20-30 guys. This thread is somewhere around 100 posts right? How many DIFFERENT guys posted on this thread? I'd be surprised if it was more than 10.

Money has been required to get alot of projects done.... well all projects need some money. BUT, they have only required alot of money because participation is in the dumps. Do we want one guy putting up $200,000.00 or 200,000 guys putting up $1.00?
I'd rather see the latter.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[AZWALKER]

LAST EDITED ON May-09-12 AT 07:28AM (MST)[p]Oh and I think I counted 13 different posters on this thread.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[Gator]

WE ALL still need to find a way to get more money to the groups that are re-building the water guzzlers,putting in new ones,re-seeding burnt areas,etc. This isn't happening by it self or is free.

We need some new ideas that we can work with.
SFW tag grab wouldn't helped in that area.IMO
I like the $5 a ticket for a draw/raffle tag, But that is only a small part that is needed.
Smart people will come up with some smart idea's so lets get to work and find ones that work.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]

 

[AZWALKER]

Gator,

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying but alot of money can be saved in the kind of efforts you mentioned by simple participation.

A water catchment contract costs $50k. That is having a contractor go out and build the catchment. I am positive that dollar amount can be cut down to just matirials if we had max participation. Repairing drinkers is even less. How much does it cost to clean bees out of a drinker? Cut back some brush? Repair an apron? Much of the funding is already there thru the HPC. The number one thing lacking is boots on the ground... bar none!!!

Now, there are things that do cost alot of money. Radio Collar studies, aerial shooting of coyotes... the list goes on. But the resources are already in place in many instances, you just have to have a solid plan and go get it.

The fight against the anti's... now there is one place we cannot forget. But... participation is of max importance there as well. Voices... we need every sportmens voice we can get.

Yes Gator we do need to step up with more money but if we don't have more participation than we do money, we will wind up in the same mental trap as the SFW... Money fixes everything. Screw money... how about the passion of the masses?!?!?


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[Deerlove]

How about droping the hunters ed point and making people earn it with sweat labor?

 

[AZWALKER]

I think that is a good idea. John Kolezar from the ADA was pushing a similar idea for a long time but couldn't get the dept to do it. I proposed something similar called the "earn-a-tag" program but got the same response. Basically my idea was to award points for every hour spent volunteering. A guy could then take those points and apply them to over the counter and leftover tags. Seems the administration of that would be a quagmire for the dept.

Sweat labor and a united voice. That's what will fix this. That and stepping up with more money when its needed.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[Bugler]

Been away awhile and it took awhile to read all of this, Whew!
I have no problem with a sweat equity plan that would be a great incentive.
Im not sure what light was shed, im just touching on a few things that grabbed me.
Im not real sure where the Cattlemens association had much to do with the HB2072 thing, but will say this. The tag grab was one thing in a laundry list of issues. I believe that pay for access is the next issue in Arizona. A huge amount of land in Arizona is used for grazing livestock, always has been that way and I dont see an end to that any time soon. What i do see is alot of locked gates and such on these large tracts of grazing land. I see a time where ranchers that lease BLM or state trust land or USFS land will try and get any access to that land locked unless one pays a trespass fee. It has nothing to do with conservation, (see AZSFW).
I dont think Hamberlin would have gained much by getting a deer tag or any other auction tag he wanted as he can pay for it, however the bag limit thing raised my eyebrows and maybe he wanted to hunt more than mule deer whenever and wherever he wanted. I think the bigger picture here is money received from "adminsitravtive costs," of an EXPO which Im sure as the sun shines, he wouldve received a piece of. And possibly something to do with the land access issues I stated above, I dont know he is in real estate after all, which i believe is how he earns his keep.
The Gilstrap side of it is paying for her company to continue to make lots of money even after she moves to Oklahome with her Husband Hays Gilstrap since they have built a home there and would leave the company junior partner, their daughter, a grubstake in this business. Maybe im off a little but then again maybe im right on.
On the subject of Hunters being apathetic, unfortunately i see this as the very nature of the beast due to the fact that we as Americans rely on our North American Model. A model put in place so that all can be affroded that opportunity fairly.

 

[ASB]

Donnie...

It's all about the money. Please don't get confused about that. At least you are talking.....to me, that is admirable. Saying that....why don't you invite Alan to the Cactus Bar in Salome for one night? That way, he can see the desert. Maybe he get's to take a ride & see a few bucks in the headlights? Then he might realize AZ has a lot to offer out west too??

I say that somewhat sarcastic, but I hope to make a point with that. Those guys have the ability to generate money. They also have the ability to generate attention.

Some of us say money.....some of us say volunteers.....maybe we all need attention....

I very much like the civil dialogue....at some point we will find a solution. I do believe that!!

 

[AZWALKER]

ASB,

For whatever reason, our little corner of Arizona is in a vacuum. I personally think the choice the department made to open Dec rifle hunts for mule deer will force people to notice the potential the rest of the state has. We'll see what kind of bucks are pulled out of those units. If 1 buck breaks 200" on those late hunts, we should see a shift in attention.

I do realize that for some its all about money. I don't think conservation is immune to the disease the rest of the country has. But, like I said before, I don't know Alan and I don't know Suzanne. I refuse to make a judgment about people that I haven't ever interacted with, at least as it pertains to their intentions. Including a guy named Dino! Too many people get on the internet and read someone elses opinion and take it as fact. Since I jumped into this arena, I have been bombarded with what one guy thinks about another. Thats part of the reason I'm not with SWSA any longer. Our mutual friend is a better man than that though and you should know that, he doesn't fall into that category.

If our true focus is on wildlife and wildlife conservation, we should have little interest in the politics involved. The most effective people are the ones on the ground, doing the work. In the end its all about the wildlife anyway, or at least it should be. All this HB2072 had to do with when you boil it all down was tags and who got them. And what does a tag represent???? A hunt, one hunt. An opportunity for 1 guy to go hunting and take an animal. Conservation has little to do with tags other than the money they generate. True conservation is about the health of a herd.

Since we both love mule deer I will reference them. I've heard guys say (including me until I educated myself) we should shut down units for a while. That makes ZERO sense. All that does is put more bucks out there, doesn't add one doe or fawn to the herd. But... more bucks mean more tags right? Sounds a little selfish. We should be focusing on the health of the herd and be doing what we can to keep doe's and fawns alive and stop thinking about the tags we get out of it. If we have a healthy herd, the bucks will be there and so will the tags. So, how to we put more fawns on the ground? Lets keep it to the things we can control. First and foremost its predators. I believe predators are the number two reason our herds are suffering and number one out of things we have control over. I think coyotes are the culprit when it comes to fawns 0-6 months old. Research shows that. Now, we will continue on that path... So how do you prove coyotes are the culprit? Studies! That's the only way the dept will do anything on a grand scale is if there is research to back up the claim. A study could cost upward of $100k. That's where the money comes in and that's where auction tags come in. The money is there in the HPC but you need an org, focused on the right things, to go and get it. There in lies the problem.

Its a big circle of life and... a nightmare of a circle. You add in those who are there to make a name, those in it for the wrong reasons like money and it becomes more convoluted. I believe the best way to counteract that is through participation. The more voices you have and the more individuals who have an investment in the process, the more we can spot and weed out the bad apples. Truly... there are only a hand full people that make most of the decisions concerning wildlife. They are the ones that have been in the middle of it for years. And guess what, they aren't perfect, they can make mistakes and they can lose focus. Does that make them evil? Nope... makes them human. I have had the privileged through my recent involvement to speak to many of the leaders of these orgs. I truly believe in my heart that they are good men. They have different ways of going about things and they do make mistakes but they are, in my opinion, doing their very best.

So where does that leave us? Us individuals..

We need to jump in and get involved. We need to lend our blood sweat and tears to conservation. We need to let our voices be heard on a massive scale. If we jumped participation in conservation efforts from our current total of probably 2 or 3 percent to say... 30%.... things would change and change FAST!

Donnie

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[sagebrush]

I'm hoping the SCG will become the vehicle to get the word out and increase the participation of the Average Joe. I was happy to learn G&F has 135,000 subscribers to their e-news and they are willing to let the SCG use the e-news to that end.

 

[ASB]

That damn Dino! A haunting post where ol' Dino assumed everyone on that local thread already knew our mutual friend very well & that he IS IN FACT a better man than that. I will never assume anything again regarding any of these forums.....too many ways to intrepet an opinion no matter how good the intention may be.

So, how does one get the participation up to 30%? Who is the group to organize & advertise a predator hunt or 2 during fawning? Who organizes & advertises a chain saw day at waterholes? Who gets a few guys together to have a few beers (make sure there is a DD)for a desert road trip & clean the drinkers/spray bees here & there?? Does G&F ever have a list of "honey-do's" that they can't get to & they know will not be funded? If they did, do they 'give up' on them because of lack of funds?

2072 was also about money & politics. Good or bad, it got a lot of attention from a lot of 'sideline' people. Many of those people are completely unaware that there is a serious problem regarding herd health of deer in many parts of AZ. Is it G&F that educates them somehow? Is it the ADA that educates them? Another group? Educated people tend to stay off the sidelines.

I certainly do not have the answers. I do not have the scientific education either. I do know that for the most part, people are good. Some want to help somehow, some way.....they just may not want to be a part of a 'group'. If you could ever figure out the 'vehicle' to reach those people you could at least get toward the 20%.

Dino

 

[AZWALKER]

Dino,

Our buddy is working on getting a list of drinkers that need work. From bees all the way to rebuilds. It will have them prioritzed from the ones that need the most work to the ones that need to just be checked.

There are good orgs out there. YVRGC and Mojave are good ones. SWSA looked like it was going to fill the gap in between those two orgs but it looks like its going to be absorbed into the MDF, what will happen to it from there, I don't know. We need a group, all its own, to focus soley on the northern part of region 4. It might take a while but we'll get there.

I think if you want to get with some buddies and go check a few drinkers and camp out, its as simple as that.

30 percent... Whew, did I say that? Yeah I did. I think that's possible. I think getting the word out is the biggest thing. I know Steve Clark from the AES does a terrific job of staying in contact with people through his email list.

Getting the word out is only one part of it though. You have to have a message, something people can sink their teeth into. How do you motivate a busy father of three who barely has time to see his kids as it is to donate a weekend to a water project? Its gotta be a family event. The next water project I organize will have something for the kids to do. I'd love to have someone doing a nature walk where kids can learn waht plants are out there, what animals leave what tracks, what plants do the deer eat... That kind of stuff. There were a bunch of kids at the 442 project but the poor things were bored to death. The hunting community needs to more of a community. We have these online forums how how many of us actually ever get to meet? Another thing I would love to do is get out during the hunts and go and talk to people in their camps. Get a feel for what they think. No better time to get someone talking about deer herds than on a deer hunt. Most of all though... Make some friends. Its not like we all don't have anything in common.

I've always believed that the most important aspect of any movement is relationship. People like to be with like minded people. People like to know you are interested in them. Shoot a persons favorite word in the english language is their own name! You want people to share your passion and get motivated? Make them a freind!

Donnie


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[DonMartin]

As to the Conservation Bonus Point. Great idea, I was (and still am)on board with this idea that started way back in 1994.

I heard that Steve Clark made a pitch to the G&F Commission about the idea of recruiting new Hunter Ed instructors to give more Hunter Ed classes statewide was to give them a Conservation Bonus Point for teaching. Anyone else hear about that?

Personally, no one, including Hunter Education instructors, should get a conservation bonus point just because they have a title.

Let's just say that if 40 hours are required to get a conservation bonus point each year, then yes the time they teach could be used to fulfill that requirement, just like anyone who works on an approved wildlife project should get one. It should be one hour for each hour they teach, in my opinion.

Even though I am a Master Instructor for the Hunter Education Program in Region III this is just MY PERSONAL OPINION! It is or does not reflect the position of the Dept. or anyone else associated with AZ Hunter Education!

To take it otherwise is just wrong!

Here is why. As much as I want to see a lot more instructors in hunter education, I want them there because they believe in our hunting heritage and the need to pass it on. I want them there to teach young and old alike to be safe, responsible and ethical sportsmen and women.

I don't want them there just so they don't have to work in a conservation project where it is hot, dirty work, which those projects are many times.

To do otherwise, might just negatively affect a program that I am personally very passionate about.

Now if they want to give a hunter ed instructor $10 off on their annual hunting/fishing licenses each year they teach, I'm OK with that. No discounts on tags however, just the licenses.

JUST MY PERSONAL OPINION!

Don Martin
Kingman, AZ

 

[rthrbhntng]

WOW!
How easily a personal conversation with a couple of people in the Dept gets turned into a pitch to the Commission about a total falacy of the original conversation.
For your info DON, I broached the subject of rehashing the Conservation Bonus Point with a couple of people in the Department and John K. to see what the reasons were for not continuing the dialog that stopped a couple of years ago.
There was NEVER anything said about GIVING anyone a point for TEACHING. It was and always should be based on a certain number of volunteer hours.
By the way DON can you explain why there is no classes in PHX. I did see that there is an open class in Ft. Thomas, Yuma and Concho. The only other ones listed are Tucson and Mesa and they are full. No chance to get anyone in for the upcoming draw cycle.
That is one of the reasons for my interest in finding information of where the idea of the Conservation Bonus Point discussions were at. Not the only one by a long shot.
DON feel free to call before spreading anymore rumors or wrong info. You have my number.
Steve

 

[AZWALKER]

The explanation I recieved from the dept was that it was abandoned because of the quagmire it would create trying to administer it. I can certainly understand that. My idea wasn't for a bonus point. My idea was to put a dollar amount on volunteer hours and then e able to cash those hours in on leftover and over the counter tags. Its basically the same idea. Another idea I had was a coupon book that could be purchased by conservation orgs and a reduced rate maybe %50... then the org could hand out coupons to volunteers.






"theeadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[DonMartin]

Steve; Sorry if you thought my post was somehow a slam on you.
I apologize if you think that was the case. It wasn't for sure. I respect your opinion on things associated with conservation in Arizona.

I must say when I heard about these conservations you had with different folks about hunter ed and the lack of classes statewide I was surprised you didn't ask me about it since I am the Master Instructor in Region III..

That being said suggest you call Denise Raum at 623-236-7567 in Phx to get all the answers you have about the Phx situation. I can and would be glad to answer questions about the classes offered in Region III.

And I will give you a call.

Don Martin

 

[DonMartin]

Just wanted to let everyone know I spoke with Steve, and all is good. FYI, Steve did NOT speak tot he Commission about the conservation bonus point or the Hunter Ed situation. My bad.

We are both aware of some issues that are making it difficult to accomplish missions that we are all working on, and sometimes we get our information messed up.

This is what happened here.

There are no problems between us or what we are trying to do.

We will all keep working for the better good of conservation in AZ, and that is the bottom line.

Don Martin

 

[BUTCH]

ZIM, BILLY, TOPGUN AND WALKER, You guys should meet up and talk about this over a ice cold beer with one of those gals in the previous pictures serving up the beer!

 

[AZWALKER]

I got the place and I'll buy the first round.

I probably agree with each of those guys 99.9% of the time. Its healthy debate for me. I don't take any of these topics personal. I have learned volumes through discussions just like this. It gets heated at times but thats fine if you can make your way back to center. You just have to realize and remember that you're dealing with passionate people with opinions. If you go in knowing that, you'll end up keeping a level head.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[Zim]

LAST EDITED ON May-15-12 AT 02:18AM (MST)[p]>ZIM, BILLY, TOPGUN AND WALKER, You
>guys should meet up and
>talk about this over a
>ice cold beer with one
>of those gals in the
>previous pictures serving up the
>beer!

Thanks but that would be kind of demeaning to Candi or Wang Chung. They didn't spend all those late hours working with me for a job like that. They have some degree of dignity.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club