Shot this group the other day

First off, I'm not a pro but I have learned a lesson or two over the years. At what distance is that group?If that's a 200 yard group it's a nice one. My goal, no matter what gun, is sub .5 MOA at 200 yards. Which means I should have close to a one whole group at 100. Give me your recipe and chrony numbers and we can look at it.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
This group was at 100 yds. Federal 215 mag primer, Winchester brass(flashhole deburred), 81 grns H1000, and a 180 grn Swift Scirocco seated .015 off the lands. I tried several loads from 78 grns and up this is by far the best. Chrony averages just over 3000 fps out of a 26" barrel.

The problem is not this group, it's all my other groups.
 
I guess my next question would be how bad were the other groups? Did you have a tight group with a couple of fliers or was it wandering on you? Your recipe sounds close. I shoot that same bullet out of my .300 winmag and I'm shooting groups slightly bigger than that at 200 yards. Has your gun been worked on? i.e. pillar/glass bedded, barrel lapped, etc. Are all the screws tight on the base and rings? Are you shooting from a good rest or is the rest questionable? Unfortunately with wandering groups, there are just as many problems that can occur as solutions.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
The other groups are just over an inch. And yes, most often two bullets are touching and the other is a flyer.

My rest may be a problem. What do you recommend?
 
One sure fire way to tell if it's the gun or the shooter is to use a lead sled. That way you have as little contact with the gun as possible. If it still wanders then something on the gun or the bullet is the problem. Usually if it's the bullet, your groups will be fairly consistant and circular barring any wind factor. If it's something mechanical with the gun or scope, your groups will have a tendency to to be less consistant. Then it becomes a process of elimination to determine what the problem is. Sounds like you did some research for the bullet recipe. Try messing with the cartridge overall length a little. It used to be that all the experts would tell you that you should be able to see rifling marks on your bullet when chambered but now most guys I shoot with are making the C.O.A.L. to the point that it barely, if at all, touches the reciever. That and a good lapping of the barrel will help tighten up a group. I have also found that H series powders burn more consistant. One way to check that is to chrony every shot. If you want to tighten a group up you should not have more than 10-15 FPS difference in speed with each bullet. Just some thoughts.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Once you find out what your gun is capable of with the lead sled, do you duplicate a hunting type rest and try to match you lead sled groups?

Oh, yeah. I hand measure every load and some of them on the chrony have 40-50 fps difference. What gives? Is that an OAL issue?
 
Thunder Hope you don't mind me jumping in here. I take it this is a 300win mag? Have you tried any other bullets? The swift can be a very tough bullet to load in some rifles. I would recommend trying a few other bullets. I would try the 180 Nosler accubonds or even Barnes TTSX. If you want to stick with the swift maybe try loading .5gr increments from your load pictured. Also IMO OAL is where tight groups are made. I would try loading some test loads at .010,.020,.025 off the lands. Are you measuring off the tip of the bullet to base of case? I would suggest the Hornday comparator and measure off the ogive. This will give you much more consistent measurements. I use the lead sled to find my most accurate group and then shot from bipod/rear bag to retest group a few times. Also is this brass new?FL resized? Neck sized?
 
Good suggestions Cahunter! I would definately try some other bullets. Every gun is a little different and your gun may like a different bullet. I also concur on the trying different powder loads in .5 gr increments. I know of .300 winmags in the 2900-3000 fps range that shoot some impressive groups. However, I would say that the majority of the guns are shooting above 3000 fps out to 3100 max. It never hurts to try a few things out. You can always sort and size brass as well. Make sure your flash holes are cleaned out as well if you are shooting used brass, hmmmmm what else? I'm sure we can figure out a few more things to make it more complicated but this should be a good place to start fine tuning that gun.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Cahunter805 thanks, I've tried Partions, Accubonds, and MRX's all in 180's. I just loaded some bullets .020 backed of the lands from .010 that I'd been trying previously. And yes, I've been measuring off the tip. Sounds like I need to look into the comparator. Most of my brass is once fired FL resized.

AWB, I haven't looked into measuring and sorting brass can you give me a brief rundown?
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-11 AT 08:53PM (MST)[p]Thunder sounds like you are on the right track. It can sure be a headache trying to find that perfect combo. I would suggest neck sizing the brass. IMO much less stress on the case and it is formed to your chamber. After a few firings you will just need to bump the shoulder back a few thousandths. Have you tried other powders with the 180 swifts? Id try rl22 or imr7828. Also you said most groups were 2 touching 1 flier. Was the flier consistent? Always 3rd shot? Could indicate barrel heat. Is the rifle free floated? Action bedded?
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-11 AT 09:30PM (MST)[p]I'm not sure that it will make that much difference with a factory gun as much as it would with a custom because of the mill specs they use. Most factory guns are milled to fit all .300 mag ammunition whereas a custom rifle will usually shoot better will custom loads simply because of the finely tuned mill job on the barrels, receivers, and bolt faces. You can get a tighter fit on a custom rifle. That being said, I sort my brass by weight after they have been full length sized and cut to within 1000th of an inch in length and a 100th of a gr in weight. The Hornady Comparator is an excellent tool and really accurate for measuring. Then I load them accordingly and shoot groups with bullets that are match grade. I have really gotten attached to the Berger VLD Target match grade. I shoot 210's but they do make a hunting VLD in a 180 gr. The match grade seem to be already sorted by weight and extremely close in weight out of the box as long as you are using the same Lot #. If you are already handloading each individual bullet and weighing them individually as well you should be really close to finding the magic.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Cahunter805 this isn't scientific but I think it's my 1st and 3rd shot that are toughing. My gun has been free floated and bedded, that and the fact that I've put so much effort into the loads are the reasons I think it should shoot a bit better. I think it might have been you that encouraged me to turn my necks.

AWB I think when I weighed my brass each brass had multiple grains of difference. Is that normal?
 
Depending on the brass, it can be. Separate them into weight categories. You can make up some difference by cutting them and resizing them but you have to be careful. I use winchester brass for my .300 winmag and .300 wsm and Lapua for my 6BR and 6 Dasher. The Lapua has been really good as far as weight differences go but I have had some problems in the past with the Winchester brass. Not lately though.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
I wouldn't wast the time and money to turn the necks for a factory BBL... Sometimes no matter what you get a BBL that wont shoot that good.. MY 300 WM load is a 180 gr pushed with H4831sc for 5/8-7/8" groups at 100... Nothing to write home about but it is consistent..

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Disclaimer:
The poster does not take any responsibility for any hurt or bad feelings. Reading threads poses inherent risks. The poster would like to remind readers to make sure they have a functional sense of humor before they visit any discussion board.
 
Not a bad group for a hunting rifle there Buck. I wouldn't scoff at it. This whole fine tuning is fun and pretty rewarding when you get a gun to shoot really tight groups. But it can rack your brain pretty bad at times and can be very frustrating.

... and I agree about not wasting time and money to turn factory BBL.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
All you techies intrigue me. I think I could get into this, but that's all I need, one more hobby. Right now my best group is a one shot group at 488 yards right through the heart of a Wyoming elk, good enough for me right now, but I can definately see why you guys spend the time you do on this ultra shot refinment.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-16-11 AT 09:55AM (MST)[p]These two groups are from today. I took a different rest and my F1 chrony. My chrony read from 3180 to 3234! I must be psycho but I swear in march the chrony clocked them 100-200 fps slower. The weather was a lot cooler then.

7098img_0062.jpg


The flyer was on the third shot, but I gave plenty of time for my barrel to cool down.

8213img_0063.jpg


I like this group a lot better but 3234 fps?! Should I back off a grain?

ForkWest, keep backpacking with your boys, it's probably more rewarding than driving youself insane with a thousand different variables. Those salamanders were cool.

BuckSnort, center to center that's pretty close to 5/8-7/8" right?
 
Thunder Looks like a decent start. What are the load specs for both those groups? Id say play with the OAL of the bottom group load and see what happens.
 
First group 70 grns IMR 4350, 180 grain swift, loaded .010 off lands. Second is 81 grains H1000, 180 Accubond, loaded about .020 off lands on your advice from a few replies ago. Should I be worried about the velocity?
 
>First group 70 grns IMR 4350,
>180 grain swift, loaded .010
>off lands. Second is
>81 grains H1000, 180 Accubond,
>loaded about .020 off lands
>on your advice from a
>few replies ago. Should
>I be worried about the
>velocity?


Only change one thing at a time... find you're best powder charge THEN play with seating depth..

You're velocity deviation will only really matter past 600 yards give or take..

Note: I am no expert so take my advice for what it's worth..

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Disclaimer:
The poster does not take any responsibility for any hurt or bad feelings. Reading threads poses inherent risks. The poster would like to remind readers to make sure they have a functional sense of humor before they visit any discussion board.
 
Thunder I would load a test group of 80.5gr H1000 @.020 off lands. I would also load 81gr H1000 at .015,010,025 off the lands. This is just a thought but maybe these loads are shooting to the best of your barrels potential. What brand rifle is it? What optics?
 
Get your speed down a bit. I honestly think you are too hot out of the barrel which may make them wander a bit. Just a thought. Try getting it under 3000 fps. But Cahunter is right, that gun may be shooting to its potential.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-17-11 AT 00:07AM (MST)[p]I should also add, that guns potential may not be a target gun but it will definately kill what you're aiming at. Don't get too frustrated with it. There are guns out there shooting A LOT worse groups than yours is shooting. In fact, believe it or not, I own one.:D

It's always an adventure!!!
 
I was afraid you might say something along those lines. I hoped with extra effort it might improve a bit. Thanks for all the help. So is it safe to conclude that after all your best efforts some if this is dumb luck? Dumb luck meaning that certain unseen stresses in the metal or other physical forces either side with or against you.
 
That's kinda harsh, but yes. Try a few things first. Don't give up just yet. But it is really hard to get screamer groups with factory guns. Sometimes even with the glass/pillar bedding and fine tuning techniques there is not much you can do with a factory rifle to make them shoot better. It is dumb luck to get one that shoots screamer groups out of the box. I have to laugh because I have been, and will probably be right where you are many times over. Good luck my friend.


It's always an adventure!!!
 
Thunder You are on the right track buddy. Don't give up yet. Fine tuning a load can be very frustrating and yes dumb luck. Hart barrels are great. More important IMO is the gunsmith who chambered it and if they squared the action well and the chamber is centered. Have you tried RL22? Its a go to powder in 300win for sure. Also have you checked the stock for clearance of the magazine box? Is the action bedded stress free? Have you torqued the action screws to the proper specs? This can make a huge difference.
 
"Also have you checked the stock for clearance of the magazine box? Is the action bedded stress free? Have you torqued the action screws to the proper specs? This can make a huge difference."

Oh, crap.
 

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