Sitka Gear

3

30inchbuck

Guest
I want some opinions I am gonna order some soon but have not decided to either go with the 90% or the downpour stuff.

Anybody got both and what are the differences?
 
I've only got the 90% and given the chance to do it again, I'd get the 90% again. Very water resistant, extremely breathable, and very well designed.
 
The Downpour is designed to be a rain jacket. It is waterproof. The 90% jacket is supposed to be ok for almost everything else. However, I will tell you straight out that I was totally disappointed in the 90% jacket. My field testing and my shower test were consistant in that they proved the 90% jacket to be a screen door.

Don't believe me. Get one. Zip it up completely. Make sure everything is secure and squared away and then go in your shower and turn the water on set at a light, gentle spray. With in a minute or so the shirt you have on underneathe will be wet at the seems and zippers. Go out in a good steady rain and walk around the block and you will find exactly the same thing. Sit behind the glasses for a couple hours in a light drizzle, the results are the same.

Sitka says that to be protected you need both jackets. The DownPour is water proof but it doesn't breathe and it doesn't have pitzips. The 90% is not waterproof or even water resistant in my opinion. So you need both but there are other alternatives that don't require you to carry two separate jackets. I am sorry but as much as I want to, I just cannot buy into the Sitka movement. It is a performance issue for me.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Have to agree with you, Wade. I haven't jumped on the Sitka wagon either and it is because you have to have/use multiple jackets to stay dry.

Scott
 
Sitka Gear is great. If money is short get the 90% jacket and get the downpour gear next year. You cant go wrong with Sitka Gear. By far the best gear I have ever used!

Wilderness Athlete Performance Nutrition
"Because the most important piece of equipment you own... is you!"
http://www.wildernessathlete.org/
 
Yea, and if it rains during his hunt this year, well, then he is gonna get wet and cold and maybe hurt. COarcher, I suspect that you either have something to do with Sitka or you have not had a chance to use any real top notch gear.

Relying on the 90% as your protective shell is bad advice.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Wade,
The 90% series is just as good as the Rivers West Gear. Take a chill pill man and relax. No need to get all defensive.

Wilderness Athlete Performance Nutrition
"Because the most important piece of equipment you own... is you!"
http://www.wildernessathlete.org/
 
It is not about being defensive. I don't have an interest in either company. It is about being accurate and knowing what you are talking about. Saying the 90% jacket is as good as the Rivers West jacket is just wrong if you are talking about shedding water. Apples and oranges. One is totally waterproof the other one is not at all.

Just out of curiousity what is your connection to Wilderness Athlete?

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
I have the downpour rain gear and like it very much. I am a very active hunter as far as walking/hiking and I have not had any problems with it sweating. I also have other Sitka gear which is all very good, icluding the 90% jacket, which is nice but I do not use it that much because I tend to use other clothing for layering.

CABugle
 
LAST EDITED ON May-31-08 AT 01:27PM (MST)[p]I am not putting the Sitka gear down across the board. It is fine gear if it is used properly and in the right situations. The 90% is a nice cover up but it is not going to protect you against the wind and rain. Period. So as long as it is not relied upon for that it is fine.

The Downpour is also a nice piece but it is purely a rain jacket and wind breaker. That's it. Put the two together and you have the equivallent of the Rivers West gear. Waterproof, windproof, quiet and camo. However, it is not going to breathe, at all. So you are going to have to take extra precautions and make a significant effort to ventitlate when you are working hard enough to perspire. If you don't you are going to get wet. Wet in the backcountry below 60 degrees f for sustained periods is bad.

If the water vapor/perspiration has no where to go it will stay on your skin or next to your skin in the base layer and you will lose heat at a greatly accerlated rate. That is bad.

You simply cannot compare any of the above mentioned jackets, even the new lighter weight ventilated Rivers West stuff, to the high end mountaineering jackets that we have been using for at least 15 years. Jackets that are totally waterproof and windproof, that can breathe, that can ventilate and are still under 25 ounces. Mountaineers and Mountain Rescue Teams do not carry two outer garments. They carry one that does it all.

What is the alternative for hunters? Either go with a high end mountaineering parka which is going to be noisier and does not come in camo or go with the only other dependable system I am aware of, Cabelas MTO50. And that isn't perfect either but as far as civilian camo gear, that is your best option. The only other option is the militay APECS parka and trousers from Propper International in MARPAT Desert or Woodland camo. A little heavy but ungodly tough and still a little noisy. I have been using the MTO50 since it came out and the APECS system for two years. They are not perfect but they are very good and dependable when used correctly.

Again, I am not saying Sitka is bad but please don't tell me that it is the best stuff out there for hunting outer wear. That is simply wrong and reveals a total lack of knowledge about the subject. This is not a new topic for me. In fact it has been a pet peeve. I have pushing the manufacturers and writing about this for many years.

You can see a list of recommended shell layer gear and more detail on my web site under the "Shell Layer" catagory.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
I guess everyone has there own opinion on hunting gear, so take it for what it's worth! I happen to love my Sitka gear, Maybe it wont work in a shower but the last time I took a shower I didn't find any game to chase!

CABugle
 
Opinions are based on the subjective. Like picking your favorite camo pattern. My evaluations are based the the objective. Like, does it work or not.

You can love your Sitka gear all you want but it won't make the Downpour breathe or the 90% shed water. You will still have to carry two jackets to my one.

You might want to read what I wrote again. Shower, neighborhood or in the field, the 90% jacket is a screen door. Here is the entire paragraph.

"Don't believe me. Get one. Zip it up completely. Make sure everything is secure and squared away and then go in your shower and turn the water on set at a light, gentle spray. Within a minute or so the shirt you have on underneathe will be wet at the seems and zippers. Go out in a good steady rain and walk around the block and you will find exactly the same thing. Sit behind the glasses for a couple hours in a light drizzle, the results are the same."

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
I couldn't disagree with you more Wade. I've tried countless shells from many different companies. I believe Sitka is amont the best for hunting. Everything you pick is going to be a compromise in some manner, and I will gladly stash a lightweight shell in my pack to wear over my 90% jacket for the advantages it gives me. To me it is a no brainer. I generally hunt in a very active manner, and it is far easier to regulate my temperature with that jacket than any "waterproof" one i've ever tried. Different hunting styles dictate which clothing is best. I can't believe that anyone who hunts in an active manner would even consider putting on anything from River's West. Might as well be sitting in a sauna.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-31-08 AT 05:51PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-31-08 AT 05:51?PM (MST)

And for what it's worth, I've wore my gear in light rains for as much as about 3 hours without any issues other than being slightly damp at the zipper.
 
Spend some time on my site or read my previous posts on this subject and you will see that I have never advocated Rivers West gear for anything other than static use. ATVing, glassing, tree stand hunting etc. It is waterproof, windproof, quiet, very durable and well made. But it does not breathe so I don't use it when I am going to be moving and active.

I regulate temperature by venting-unzipping my pit zips, unzipping my t-neck, taking my gloves off and exposing my wrists, removing my hat, unzipping my jacket and removing my insulation layer(s), my shell stays on most of the time. It is my protection and my camo cover. It is also easier, faster and quieter for me to cinch everything back up on my shell when I stop and get into stealth mode then taking my pack off and digging my shell out and puting it back on.

Again, what is the purpose of carrying two jackets when one will do? And please, don't try to convince that the 90% will handle light rain for sustained periods. It won't. The seems and zippers leak. Period.

If you choose to carry an extra piece of gear as dedicated rain gear that is fine but please don't try to sell it as the best system because it is not. The 90% has no insulative qulaities, and no waterproof/windproof qualities so why carry it when weight is already an issue for a hardcore backpack hunter when you consider ammo, optics, cleaning gear and your bow or rifle on top of your essentials.

You're right, it is a no brainer.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Hardcore,
The 90% jacket has sustained hours of rain/snow mix for me. Just last weekend in colorado I was out in just that and I did get wet at all. Just telling you the facts. Its a great jacket!

Wilderness Athlete Performance Nutrition
"Because the most important piece of equipment you own... is you!"
http://www.wildernessathlete.org/
 
No point in arguing with you I guess. Appearantly you would know better than I just how wet I was (or wasn't) after hunting in the rain with my 90% jacket.
 
Just did 7 miles in the mountain preserve and saw 2 coyotes, 4 pigs and a a red racer but not one single, solitary person. Nice.

Ok, where were we. One of the best technical rescue intructors in the world runs an outfit called Ropes That Rescue out of Sedona, Arizona. I have survived many of his courses and even been priviledged to assist in teaching a few. Reed Thorne is the mans name and his business is making top notch rope rescue intructors so they can go back and teach their own troopers the art of clean rigging. They are grueling classes. Seven 10 hour days with studying and copious amounts of beer/pizza consumption at night. 50% field. 50% classroom. 100% burning of the grey matter.

Reed has a great saying about teaching people that already know something about the subject and why they are so stubborn about adopting new methods. He asks, why is that a dog will return to his own vomit and eat all over again that which has already made him sick? The answer is, because he doesn't know any better.

Gentleman, I have no monetary interest in this argument, I simply want to identify and promote the best gear on the planet. I don't care where it comes from or how much it costs. Either you have a different Sitka 90% jacket than I do or you are returning to your own vomit.

COarcher. I would have a lot more confidence in what you have to say if your profile were not disabled. You know who I am. What are you hiding?

Always a pleasure.

Regards.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
New member long time lurker. I just wanted to let you know about my experience. I have the mtn. pants, great, vest love it.Just picked-up the 90% in Asat. I live in NW Washington so I no rain,went for an hour walk with the 90% in a pretty good rain got home was dry as a bone, plus it was completly dry in 15 or 20 minutes, I will say the sizing runs a little small I got XL and should have got 2XL. Great Stuff so far.

Oldlogger
 
Well it can't do too well because the seems are not taped which is the problem. Again, I just don't see a need for this piece once you leave the truck. If it is not a 100% jacket then it is an extra piece that I don't need. Knocking around it is fine but not something I would hit the trail with.

The new Nimbus jacket looks to me like a much better piece. Waterproof/breathable, pit zips, quiet, and in camo, only one camo but camo still. Whether they took my advice, somebody elses or simply evolved on their own, this new 2008 Nimbus is a better jacket for the field. Not perfect, but much better.

Note that the Downpour Jacket is not part of the 2008 Sitka line line.

Wade
www.HardcoreOudoor.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-06-08 AT 03:36PM (MST)[p]Keep in mind HCO that the 90% is a Soft Shell, Soft shell are ment to function differently than a Hardshell.
 
Soft shells, as currently configured, are for fair weather posers that get caught in the rain and have to turn tail and run back to the lodge. I figure that's the 90% they were talking about when they named the jacket. Real outdoorsmen, hardcore outdoorsmen have the gear and experience to handle any weather.

OK, I am just kidding. I know what soft shells are for. The man asked of the two jackets, the Downpour and the 90%, which should he buy. The answer is both because neither jacket can do what a really good technical shell will do by itself. I am just saying that while the 90% might work for some people, it won't work in my system because it is not a dependable shell. It breathes but it is not waterproof or windproof. The Downpour is waterproof and windproof but it is a sweatbox. That fabric won't breathe and it doesn't have good ventilation, ie pit zips. Neither has a place in my pack.

I am hoping the new Nimbus will fill the bill.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Having owned the rivers west I can tell you it sheds water better than anything else, however, it is also heavy and does not breath at all. I do a lot of high country hunts and can tell you the rivers west does not work well for that type of hunting:too heavy, does not breath.

I am thinking of switching to the sitka. All the reports I am getting is that it breathes better than anything out there, which is more important to me than how it well it sheds water. I pack rain gear too shed water. I would likely get the mountain pants and shirt and than the down pour rain gear. I have a leightweigt down jacket for layering in between.This combination appeals to me.

Mike
 
In my world, it is an atrocity to carry a piece of gear that you do not need. We do not carry rain gear, we wear a waterproof/breathable shell that integrates with a system of insulation and base layers that allows you to both warm and ventilate.

The system I described above will take you from the Sonoran desert floor to 14,000 feet plus.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
HCO, you seem like the kind of guy that always has to be right. Are you married?

Hunting gear is all about tradeoffs. There is no one jacket that does it all and does it without a single trade off. That said, the combination that I have come up with that works the best in all conditions is a good soft shell and good raingear. For hunting I think the 90% Jacket and the Dounpour rain gear is the best on the market. This system will also take you from the Sonoran Desert to 14,000 feet. It's just two different ways of doing things, and it doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. It's personal preference and is the way I prefer to do it. That way I'm 100% covered in virtually any weather, and my jacket will breath, and it's camo, and its quiet. My only tradeoff is that I have to carry a few ounces of extra weight and give up a little space in my pack. That's a tradeoff I'm gladly willing to accept.


http://www.wildernessathlete.com/ because the most important piece of equipment you own is YOU!

http://www.sitkagear.com/ Turning clothing into gear.

www.hudallaassociates.com
 
Of course I always want to be right, who wants to be wrong. Compromise is having to accept the good with the bad and that is fine for some people, not us. We strive to find the very best, the absolute best gear available. Gear that doesn't have to compromise. Perfection. If we can't find it, we will try to push the market to make it and if we can't do that then we will make it ourselves. That is what makes us hardcore. Hardcore Outdoor isn't just a name, it describes who we are and what we expect. And yes, I have been married 20 years and quite happy, thank you very much. We are talking about gear not relationships.

You want to carry an unnecessary piece of gear, be my guest. Just don't try and tell me it is the best system. Your pack will be heavier. You will be slower. You will fatigue faster. Base, insulation, shell. That is it. You don't need anything else. Sitka either wasn't selling enough Downpours or they realized that they could make a better piece in the Nimbus. Either way, the Downpour is no longer available. So the point is moot.

Until the industry can create a softshell that is truly waterproof and breathable they will be religated to road hunters and stand sitters.

14 years of search and rescue work gives me a unique perspective on the mistakes people make in the backcountry that sometimes cost them their lives. Take a razor to your gear list.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
It sounds like no one is going to convince you that there is value in having both a soft shell and a good set of rain gear. No worries, you do it your way and I'll do it mine. Doesn't mean that either one of us is right or wrong. The Dounpour sold fine, the Nimbus is just an improvement. With pit zips too.

So I guess I'll be stuck in my truck and in my tree stand with my 90% huh? Come on dude. Realize that there are very experienced backcountry hunters who may do things differently than you. That's OK, it doesn't make you better or more right than them. Your posts have an air of superiority that rubs people the wrong way.

http://www.wildernessathlete.com/ because the most important piece of equipment you own is YOU!

http://www.sitkagear.com/ Turning clothing into gear.

www.hudallaassociates.com
 
Oh, I can be convinced, you just have not made the case yet. Because it can't be made. It does not make any sense to hump an extra 26 ounce outerwear jacket. And that air of superiority is called an opinion. In my case it is based on a whole lot of experience, trial and error, and objectivity. You are certainly entitled to yours but you might want to stop drinking the Kool-Aid first. As far as how I rub you, try a little Corona Ointment on that. I am not bucking for Prom Queen, I want great gear and as far as outerwear, Sitka is my best chance to get it.

Of course there are experienced backcountry hunters that do things differently but there are a lot of people still wearing cotton T-shirts and Wranglers too.

And how do you know that the Downpour sold fine?

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Wade,

I just wanted to add a little to the discussion - not to persuade you or to back up anyone's opinions - but to offer some facts, which have been missing in much of what has been posted here.

The Downpour gear sold amazingly well in 2007. In fact, it was sold out in all common sizes by about September last year. The entire Sitka line was improved upon and renamed for 2008, but the basic concept remains...that is taking a hunter from hot and dry conditions to cold and wet conditions and keeping them warm and dry the entire time. Sitka is a layering system and is based upon the same layering systems that the mountaineering folks have been taking advantage of for years.

The Downpour series breathes extremely well...it is completely waterproof and allows you to be active while wearing it. The Nimbus series simply made a few improvements, changed the name, and continues to breathe extremely well and is completely waterproof. It was not discontinued.

The 90% jacket was never advertised to be waterproof. It is treated to be water resistant (DWR)and is wind-resistant as well. It will be all you need 90% of the time (hence the name). It will stand up to rain, but if you are in a downpour, you need rain gear (Downpour or Nimbus series). Like was mentioned previously, it is a layering system. The core layers absorb and wick moisture incredibly well, the insulting layers do the same. This keeps you dry from the inside out. The rain gear (outer layer) will keep you dry from the outside without causing you to burn up sweating like most waterproof layers.

The entire system is very lightweight and form fitting. The rain jacket (Downpour) weighs 16 oz and can be stuffed just about anywhere. It is extremely durable and has the same 4-way stretch properties like the rest of the Sitka line to enable an unrestricted range of motion and comfort.

Just out of curiousity, what do you wear that gives you absorbing, wicking, full waterproof characteristics and breathes? I think for a total of 42 oz the combination of 90% Jacket and Downpour (or Nimbus) jacket is tough to beat...

Corey
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-23-08 AT 11:01PM (MST)[p]Corey,

You sound as though you speak with some authority, are you with Sitka?

As far as layering, I have been a proponent of the technique for 20 plus years and mountaineering is where I learned it. However, the Sitka system uses two pieces where one optimal one could and does do the job in other genres, like mountaineering. Base, insulation and shell. Period. That is it. However, Big Pig eventually made a viable argument for an additional piece for the up close and personal bow hunter. I agreed for the most part but only because he doesn't like MTO50 and there is no other quiet, waterproof, breathable shell worth a damn on the market. I also think you could acheive the same thing with an insulation piece like fleece which provides a lot more thermal value than the 90%.

Answering, your question of me, here is what I said in another recent MM post on the subject.

"Many years as a ground pounding SAR Tech turned me into a devout ounce counter. When you are carrying a lot of extra equipment to reach, treat and extricate people in the wilderness setting, your personal gear gets winnowed down to the very barest of essentials and they have to be flexible enough to work in almost all conditions. The outer shell is very important to me. Read Superman?s Cape on my site for the details but the bottom line is that I rarely if ever take my shell set off, especially in the third and fourth seasons. I even sleep with it on when I bivy or cold camp. I constantly regulate perspiration and warmth with ventilation techniques and by varying my insulation layer according to my activity level. I wear a zip t-neck polypro base layer top and bottom(of light, mid or expedition weight), a light synthetic insulation jacket liner(Marmoloft, Primaloft or Thermaloft), a waterproof breathable shell jacket and pants (Gore-Tex or eVent), a ball cap, and light Nomex gloves. In my pack I carry a high loft, ultra high quality, light weight down insulation jacket, expedition quality two piece waterproof breathable insulated gloves, 1 pr of spare socks, 1 pr of spare glove liners, an extra base layer top, a stocking cap and a windproof balaclava. That's it. Again, the specifics are all on my site but now do you see why I have no use for the Sitka 90% jacket? However, their new Nimbus jacket looks promising. I am trying to get one for evaluation but I think they are pissed at me."

As I have said and proven many times, this system (which consists of the finest gear on the market) has the flexibility to take me from the Sonoran Desert floor to Mt. Rainier and handle all the weather that both has to offer. The 90% and Downpour jacket combo simply does not fit into that system.

42 ounces for two jackets? I can name you 4 different outer shell jackets that can each do a better job than the 90% and Downpour jackets together and they are lighter at 19, 21, 28, and 32 ounces respectively. And they are more durable pieces.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
WOW!!! You guys are arguing with a brick wall. Apparently, everyone on this sight that has Sitka gear and loves it are only treestand hugging, road hunters that have no clue how to hunt let alone bag a trophy animal. And Hardcore here is the ultimate predator. There's been more trophy animals killed in a cotton button up tucked into wranglers than any other brand of clothing could ever dream of. I guess I'll stick to the road where I can make a mad dash to the lodge if I need and continue to kill trophy animals to hang in said lodge. No need for a follow up Hardcore.
 
Wade,

In a light drizzle your fleece insulation layer will absorb every drop of water and you will be required to use your waterproof shell. I can continue sneaking around in my 90% jacket and know that I am still quiet and dry. If it downpours, then I need the waterproof shell. But with the 90% jacket, I have added versitility that you don't have, and I need that added versitility to be successful at what I am doing on the mountain.

Yes, it would be ideal to have just one piece that was soft shell (quiet), waterproof, breathable, etc. Oh yeah, and I need it to be camo...I have no need for your fleece layer, you have no need for my 90% jacket. It is because you are a mountain rescuer and I am a hunter. Your list of gear will work impressively well for what you do, but it won't work as well at 20 yards on a big mule deer buck that I've been stalking in a light rain for 4 1/2 hours. That is the difference...Sitka Gear is made for hunters. It has been proven many times from the desert floors of Sonora and Arizona, to the wettest spring forests in Alaska, to the coldest, snowiest peaks in northern B.C. There is nothing wrong with your combination of gear, but it won't work for a serious hunter.

By the way, the Nimbus jacket will be a great jacket for a waterproof shell...you are going to love it.

Corey
 
Corey,

If you spend a little more time on my site you will see that I have been hunting, seriously, for more than 30 years which is about twice as long as I have been a SAR Tech. I do not claim in any way, shape or form to be the greatest, most successful hunter but I am a serious gear fanatic and have a great deal of serious wilderness experience both with and without a tag. For the past 10 years or so, the only difference between my hunting clothing and my SAR clothing is the outer shell and the color of my cap. When I hunt, I switch to a Cabelas MTO50 Quiet Pack jacket and bibs set. Everything else stays the same.

The fleece was just an example. I do not use fleece personally, however, the fleece pieces that I do own do not absorb water, they either shed it or the water goes right through to the base layer below. But the fleece would be quiet, comes in camo and has a thermal quality that the 90% jacket doesn't have.

I don't take my shell off so I would not have to put a water proof rain jacket over a wet 90% jacket. You do that? You stop in the middle of your stalk to take a rain jacket out of your pack and put it on over your wet 90% jacket? So now you have a wet layer (a DWR coated jacket with untaped seams) under your rain jacket? In the words of BigPig, Dude!

I borrowed a 90% to test and it leaked at the seams. I bought a 90% just for these discussions and again, it leaked at the seams. My MTO50 is quiet, tough, waterproof, breathable and comes in camo. Hunting or doing SAR work, I do not need an additional jacket that gains me nothing.

But, my MTO50 jacket is not perfect, it can be improved. In the mean time the perfect hunting jacket that would work for both rifle and bow hunters is in the works. It will be like nothing else on the market.

You did not answer my question about your relation to Sitka.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-23-08 AT 10:52PM (MST)[p]Marley- I will concede the fact that there have been more big game animals killed wearing wranglers and a cotton shirt if you will agree that those same people are almost always the same ones that get wet,cold,and hypothermic and require help getting pulled out of the suck by people NOT wearing the said uniform. Even Carhartt makes a waterproof breathable system. CDN
 
So just let me get this straight Hardcore. You are against having the 90% jacket?????? SHEEEEEEEEESH.
 
Wade,

This will be my last reply on this topic as you aren't comparing apples to apples. The Cabelas MT050 is an outer layer rain gear...you wear that when it rains, I wear the Sitka Nimbus jacket. I will leave it up to you to compare the two and let us know of the results. I know the results, but I am obviously biased. Comparing the 90% Jacket to the MT050 is not apples to apples...one is a soft shell, moisture-wicking, water-repelling insulation layer, the other is a waterproof outer rain jacket. Do you honestly wear the MT050 day-in and day-out chasing elk in September or is it an outer layer you wear when the weather is nasty? To answer your question, yes I wear the 90% jacket and carry the Sitka rain gear in my pack for when it really starts raining. I have never had the 90% jacket get so wet that it couldn't wick the moisture out quickly, but then again, I've never showered in it either...

Another point...how is having water go right through your insulation layer (fleece) to your base layer a good thing? The problem with fleece is that it doesn't wick moisture...Sitka's insulating layers do. Does the fleece have taped seams? Let's compare the Nimbus jacket to the MT050 jacket and your insulating layer to the 90% jacket so we are at least comparing apples to apples.

Sorry, I fully intended to answer your question in my last post but overlooked it...I am by no means an authority. I am the Pro Staff Director for Sitka and believed in the gear when it first came out, just as I do today. I recognized the full system as the best gear I had ever used in hunting when I first tried a set and have been hooked ever since.

Now, your turn to answer a question. You mentioned a perfect hunting jacket that is in the works...are you involved in the development of said jacket?

Corey
 
The original post asked if he could only afford one, which should he buy first, the 90% or the Downpour jacket.

I am an ounce counter out of sheer force of habit and I cannot justify carrying both the 90% and the Downpour jackets. That is two jackets weighing 42 ounces, according to Corey, and I can get the job done with one jacket that weighs (depending on which one you choose) between 19 and 32 ounces for an XL.

I am just saying that the 90% jacket has no place in my system because it is not waterproof and does not provide insulation. It is not a shell. It is not an insulation piece. So to me it is useless. My shell performs both the functions that the 90% and Downpour jackets are supposed to. Those are extra ounces in my pack that get me nothing. Am I splitting hairs? Yes, of course, but that is what I do.

I am looking for the absolute best gear possible for the hunter that goes high and remote and stays there until they get what they want or the hunt ends. These are people that hump everything in on their back and have to be able not only to survive but prosper in any kind of weather in order to succeed. That is what I like to do and it requires a minimum of very specialized gear.

You talk about trophys. Take a look at my site and read an article called "A Successful Arizona Elk Hunt-The Beginning Of Hardcore Outdoor" and you will see what I mean. I will consider that little DIY 300+ bull a trophy because I did it the hard way and that is what trips my trigger. I love it. Is that how everybody hunts? No, so take my opinion for what it is worth to your style of hunting.

When I am calling coyotes out of the Ranger, I am wearing my Carhartts and a Beefy T but when I am hunting dear or elk it is full tilt, game on, hard hunting where I am living out of my pack for days and I am in full uniform because that is what keeps me alive. My Search And Rescue experience simply gives me a unique perspective because I've seen what doing it wrong gets you. I have hauled many dead bodies out of the boonies and the vast majority of those them were the result of mistakes not accidents.

If you are sporting a button down cotton shirt and Wranglers on one of my hunts, your are an accident waiting to happen and it isn't a question of if but when.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Buglelk- Not to cut in but in your posts you keep referring to the 90% Jacket as a insulation layer. Sitka(website)does not even consider this jacket as an insulation layer. Did I miss something in my search? Sitka suggests using their insulation componets which is Polartec Micro 100 which is like saying a lightweight "fleece" or the vest(berber pile w/ polyester face). What makes the 90% jacket an insulation layer? Confused!! CDN
 
Corey,

Let me answer your first question first. Yes, that is no secret. I am because there comes a point in ones crusade where you have to decide whether you are going to continue jousting windmills or put your money where your mouth is. I had to put up or shut up. Would I rather have Sitka build it, you bet because I am not a manufacturer but I believe in what I am saying and I am trying to push the market to where it needs to be. One way or another I am going to get what I want and think we all deserve.

Hunters are being ignored by companies like Arcteryx because we are "not their core customer". Well, I can guarantee you that my kit cost 3 times what their core customer spends on his. The "Elite Hunter" wants best in class gear and he does not consider cost as a deciding factor. He is fiercly loyal to products that have performed well for him but is an early adoptor on new gear that he thinks will advance him and give him an edge in weight, performance, durability, or safety. He is your buyer but your are not giving him your best yet. Maybe the Nimbus is it but Sue has not decided if I get one for evaluation or not yet. Nobody wants Sika to be successful more than I do because I beleive that me and my readers and best served by "monomaniacs on a mission", not corporate monliths mascarading as good ole boys. Make me a quiet, camo, waterproof, breathable mountaineering shell that competes with the cannucks and I will wear it and promote it to the world as the best. The technolgy is there. The components are there. They just don't all exist in the same piece. Yet.

Again, the 90% does not fit in my system because it is not waterproof and it does not provide insulation. It is neither shell nor insulation. It is an extra piece. Extra is fine for some hunters but it is a luxury my style cannot afford.

You are right, comparing the MTO50 jacket to the 90% is not apples to apples. Neither is comparing the Downpour jacket to the MTO50. Which is precisely the problem with needing both the Downpour and the 90%, neither one of them on their own can compare to the MTO50 which is why I still use it.

You aksed if I wear my shell jacket in September. Yes, in the morning, night and when I need it during the day. If it is too hot it goes in the pack and I wear my base which is a hunting color or camo. if it is too hot for my shell, it is going to be too hot for any jacket including the 90%.

And please don't quit this conversation. This is civil discourse between two knowledgable outdoorsmen that happen to care a great deal about the subject. I respect your opinion, I just happen to think you are wrong. So hang in there with me or call me so we can continue this. I can be persuaded and I can certainly can be proven wrong, I just can't be bought or bamboozled.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Cody,

The 90% jacket is absolutely an insulating layer. It is also a highly-technical, weather resistant jacket that can be used as an outer layer in 90% of the conditions that we face while hunting. This soft-shell jacket was developed to replace the traditional 3 piece layering system (base, insulation, shell) that Wade uses. 90% of the time you are going to get better results by wearing a base layer with the 90% jacket because it becomes an insulating layer AND a weather resistant shell in one. When it really rains, you will still need a waterproof shell, and now you are back to the traditional 3 piece layer. The 90% jacket sheds more air and vapor in one minute than a waterproof breathable shell can in 24 hours. It is water resistant and has never claimed to be waterproof, but it will keep you dry 90% of the time and be an effective insulation layer all in one.

Wade,

I wish you the best in the development of your new jacket. I have hunted hard in my Sitka Gear going on 3 years now. I have never once been uncomfortable in the gear, from antelope in August to mule deer in December, from the desert to the highest peaks. In my opinion, there is nothing out there made for a hunter that comes close to the quality and technical characteristics of Sitka Gear. 90% of the time you are going to be able to eliminate one piece of the traditional layering system, which is a huge advantage for me as a bowhunter. Waterproof shells are typically noisier than a soft-shell jacket, and to know that I can now hunt harder and longer than I previously could, regardless of most weather conditions, is a benefit that I don't see in other gear. My rain gear only comes out now when it is flat out downpouring, allowing me to keep quiet and keep hunting longer. If I do happen to get wet, the gear will wick the moisture out faster than any gear I have ever tried.

I'm not trying to persuade you to become a die-hard Sitka nut like so many of us are becoming, but I wanted to make sure that anyone reading this read both sides of the debate - one from someone affiliated with and passionate about Sitka, and one from someone who is a competitor...they get two varying views which is extremely helpful when considering what to buy. You are extremely knowledgable about gear, no doubt about it, and I appreciate your input.

Best of luck,
Corey
 
You are defending your brand, I understand that. You have a monetary interest in it but as you said yourself, you are biased. My criticism stems from my use of your product not as a competitor. If I do in fact become a competitor, I will be a reluctant one born out of necessity because the market is not satisfying my needs. Isn't that how Sitka started?

Calling the 90% Jacket an insulation piece is an interesting twist and technically I suppose you could say that any layer is an insulator including a shell but I think that is fudging.

Bottom line is that you are still carrying an extra 32 ounce piece of gear that is neither an effective shell nor a good insulation layer.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Corey,

What piece of the traditional layering sytem are you not having to carry by using the 90% Jacket? I can see sort of considering the 90% Jacket as an insulation piece because it is another layer but now you're suggesting that it be substituted for a real insulation piece. If that is what you are saying, that is something entirely different. Using the 90% Jacket as an insulation layer in place of an actual syntheic or down insulated piece is unthinkable. Surely that is not what you intended to say.

I would also like to hear more about the magic wicking capabilities of one DWR garment, the Downpour Jacket, being stacked on top of a wet DWR garment, the 90% Jacket, that leaked and got your base layer wet. That really is amazing stuff then. I have racks of the best pieces from the best makers on the market and none of them can do what you just described.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Corey- Thanks for your reply. Does the 90% jacket perform as well when wet with the Nimbus over it? Just thinking that you now have 2 weather resistant layers on top of each other. Does the 90% jacket breath as well when covered up by another less permeable Nimbus jacket? What are your thoughts? CDN
 
Cody,

Yes, the 90% jacket does perform just as well with the Nimbus jacket over it. The 90% jacket is water resistant - treated with DWR - that allows it to become an outer layer for most conditions. The Nimbus jacket is the waterproof shell that is used when conditions are too extreme for the 90% jacket. The 90% jacket wicks and breathes...it is not a waterproof rain shell - it is a soft shell fabric, which means it breathes 100X better than the standard outer layer rain shells and maintains the desired wicking and insulating properties while offering outer layer protection from all but the worst conditions.

The idea is to be able to wear a base layer with the 90% jacket and get the base, insulation, and outer layer coverage with just 2 pieces, rather than 3. However, when conditions are flat out nasty, the 3rd piece (Nimbus jacket) will be necessary. The Nimbus jacket breathes better than any other 100% waterproof shell I have ever seen, allowing the layers underneathe to continue to function as designed. The vest is also a nice added insulation piece for the coldest conditions and wicks moisture from the inside out, just as the rest of the Sitka line does.

Many thanks,
Corey
 
Pro do you wear your Mt050 pants when it's not wet? If not what do you wear for light weight pants. Bugelk does the sitka pants come with zipper vents on the sides because my north face ski gear has them. Russ
 
Deerlove,

Yes, the Nimbus rain gear pants have thigh vents and are 100% waterproof and breathable. They are lightweight and extremely durable...they aren't your standard throw-away rain gear. We've had guys wear them for a week straight dall sheep hunting in Alaska and not get a single tear in them while sliding down rock chutes, etc. They have a 20% strecth rate which means they are comfortable and move with you (no binding), articulated knees, gusseted crotch, etc.

Thanks,
Corey
 
I have had the mt050 rain gear and liked them during the hard rain in Ohio when I lived there but they seem to tear easily on rocks and brush. I have now used the downpour on several hunts and have found them to be much more durable and I have to add that I don't sweat in them as much as I did with the mt050 during those warm thundershowers that Colorado is notorious for. We all know how it is when you sweat and then you stop to glass for just one minute and you freeze the rest of the day. I am absolutely sold on the sitka system and I am sure I will enjoy my 12 day backpack dall sheep hunt this next year in them as well.
 
Corey,

So, when the weather really turns bad, worst case scenario, you are wearing a base, the 90% Jacket, The Nimbus Jacket and a fleece vest. That is four pieces and four layers and not one of them is Down or Primaloft or Marmaloft or Climasheild or Polargard.

And on top of that, you want me to believe that they are all wicking from the skin out, from one layer to the next until the water vapor is finally pushed out onto the exterior of the Nimbus Jacket where it can evaporate? I tell you what Corey, I will personally pay for the room at the Outdoor Retailer in January so you can represent Sitka and make that presentation to the top manufacturers and buyers in the country and see how that flys.

By my count, the four layers you describe weigh 5.1lbs and that is just the tops. That is more than a Wiggys twenty degree below zero rated sleeping bag and not one of those garments has any loft.

You said that "The Nimbus Jacket breathes 100x better than the standard outer layer rain shells". What rain shells are you talking about? Gore-Tex? eVent? Precip?

That is your system?

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Marley,

What, no cotton button ups and Wranglers on the sheep hunt? You don't need all this new fangled, fancy pants, city slicker, 21st century mumbo jumbo. Come on, where is your sense of adventure.

I have seven years worth of abuse on the same set of MTO50 Quiet Pack Jacket and Bibs. Most of that has been in the nastiest, most rugged parts of Arizona. This is the world class leader of scratch and tear and I am pretty sure we hold the patent on rocks. In all that time I have one small tear on the inside of my lower pants leg from an errant strand of barbed wire that I jerked away from.

Good luck on your sheep hunt. Hopefully your outfitter will carry some extra snivel gear for you, just in case.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
I don't know I guess they got torn on the spring hanging out of the drivers seat of my truck as I was getting out to shoot from the road. You ever think that maybe some hunt differently than you. Or are you really that arrogant? All I am telling you is the fact that my mt050 kept me dry but didn't last as long as I had hoped. I am hoping that I get more time out of my downpour than I did out of my mt050s. I have owned 3 pair of mt050 pants and one mt050 jacket. Some pants were insulated, some not, Obviously I liked them or I wouldn't have kept buying them. Maybe, just maybe I will get more time out of my downpour. I'll be sure to let you know.

As far as the sheep hunt goes I assure you that I will be packing only the best in my book, but that book is probably a little different than yours but you know better than anyone else. Here's my list tell me what I'm missing

browning composite stalker .280 with some trigger work done
145 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claws running at 3050 fps
Leupold VX III 4.5X14 with custom target turrets
Swarovski EL 10X42
Leica crf 1200
Mystery Ranch 6500 pack
Sitka system (I already know your opinion on this one)
Kenetrek mountain boots

What do ya think, am I going to survive?
 
Marley- Go back to the original question. Downpour or 90%? If your going with just one, regarless if you love the 90% or not you have to go with the Downpour. The 90% ultimately leaves you exposed. Even by Sitka's own marketing, hence the 90% name, it can't withstand the harshest of conditions. Why leave any question to whether or not your gear can withstand the harshest weather. With the amount of time and money invested why would end early when you can stay late? Afterall, this is when you have to say no to the buck of a lifetime that just slipped over the next ridge. Anyways, "hunt hard and shoot straight" on your sheep hunt. Love the 7mm-06 w/ the TB's- Great combo. CDN
 
Wade's Statement:
You said that "The Nimbus Jacket breathes 100x better than the standard outer layer rain shells".

Corey's statement:
The 90% jacket wicks and breathes...it is not a waterproof rain shell - it is a soft shell fabric, which means it breathes 100X better than the standard outer layer rain shells and maintains the desired wicking and insulating properties while offering outer layer protection from all but the worst conditions.

Wade could you explain where you pulled the above quote? seems to me that you are twisting the subject a little more than Corey. He does have an intrest in seeing Sitka do well, but I see more holes in your side than his. I currently wear the MT050, but certainly want to try the Sitka. I'll make up my own mind on this subject.

Back to the original question...I have no experience with the Sitka, but after readin through all of this thread. If I could only afford one piece of Sitka Gear, I would start with the Downpour or Nimbus 100% waterproof jacket and just wear layers underneath. It would also depend on the type and location of hunts you are planning.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-25-08 AT 11:18AM (MST)[p]Marley,

We agree on binos, scopes, boots, packs and range finders but I think you need some actual insulation in your clothing sytem. Something with some loft for bivys or glassing or emergencys. I like the Sitka pants and the Downpour will work, I just wish it had actual pit zips and was quieter. The Nimbus would be better if you can get your hands on one. All of my sources are saying at least 60 days and I was told yesterday by a Manager at Sportsmans Wharehouse that they are no longer carrying Sitka. Everything they had was on the clearance rack. It's the 90% Jacket I don't like for packing in but we have beat that horse to death.

I am not even going to touch your choice of rifles, calibers and bullets. That is just too personal. That's like arguing blondes, brunettes or red heads. But for the record, I am a 30-06 man from birth and you can blame Kabar for that. My personal preference, a Robar/McMillan custom model 700 and brunettes of course.

Comparatively, I don't have much field time in the field with the Downpour but when I put it side by side with my MTO50, the MTO50 looks substantially more durable. I am interested to hear what you think after your trip.

Arrogant? No. Confidence from experience, training and knowledge. And it ain't bragging if you can do it. Besides, I know what I know and I know what I don't know. Arrogant? No. Highly opinionated? Absolutely! It's what I do.

Regards and best of luck on your hunt.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Hoofsup,

I pulled it from his response to CDN, but you are correct. I misquoted Corey. I typed Nimbus but should have typed 90%. However, the question and the challenge still stands.

There is no twisting of anything. If you don't see the flaws in his heavy, compressed, constricted, low loft 4 layer system, I don't know what to tell you. Those garments won't do what he said they will do in that situation unless Sitka has figured out a way to suspend the laws of physics, thermal dynamics and hydrology.

Corey is on Sitkas payroll and I would expect him to defend the company flag. My ctriticism comes from an object evaluation of the gear and I have no monetary interest in the issue one way or the other. I determine my own opinions. That said, there are pieces of the Sitka line that I like and I have high hopes for the new Nimbus jacket and look forward to evaluating it.

This is not a popularity contest and I am not running for prom queen. This is a forum where ideas and opinions are freely exchanged. Of course you should make up your own mind based on your particular situation. What you ultimately decide is meaningless to me but I am interested in your feedback on how the gear performs.

I think Sitka had the right idea and I applaud their effort. Sitka is exactly the kind of outfit I like to promote and see prosper but I think they strayed from their Mountaineering inspiration on the current line. The 08 line is as yet, untested.

Back to the original question, I agree with CDN, if the original poster could only afford one of those jackets, it would have to be the Downpour or he will not be fully protected.

www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Marley,

30 days on the Nimbus and, yes, Sportsman's is carrying a whole bunch of Sitka this year.

Thanks,
Corey
 
Will all of the sportman's be carrying sitka? I stopped by the sportsmans here in colorado springs and they looked at me like I had no idea what I was talking about. I have a 35% off coupon for sitka gear from being in the Huntin Fool magazine but would like to try on the Nimbus system and some other layers before buying as I am usually inbetween size large and x-large. Thanks.
 
Corey,

The Phoenix Sportsmans Wharehouse Manager told me yesterday that they had Discontinued the Sitka line. Is that accurate?

I went to one of our local gun stores to place an order for a Nimbus Jacket and Pants. They called Sitka and were told that there were none in stock and that it would be September before they could get them. Does that sound right?

Thanks.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Hoofsup,

Just to provide you with some more facts, which seem to disappear when some posters spew their opinion...

Sitka's system is not a 4 layer system. It is actually a 2-layer system 90% of the time, and for the other 10% it is a traditional 3-layer system. Obviously, with any system, you can add as many insulation layers as you want (such as a high loft, body-mapped Celsius vest), but the strength of Sitka lies in the fact that you don't always need it. The concept is base layer plus the jacket gives you the base, insulation, and outer layer for 90% of the conditions you face. When it downpours, throw on the Nimbus jacket. But you are still at a 3 piece system.

The system is versatile, which I see as a huge advantage as a hunter. If I'm hunting elk in September in an area where I have encountered very few downpours, all I need is a base shirt and my 90% jacket and I'm covered. If I'm hunting mule deer in November in 24" of snow, I'll throw on the vest for extra insulation (still 3 piece with lots of high loft insulation and I'm again covered). If I'm steelhead fishing in March, I'll wear a Traverse shirt with my 90% jacket and my Nimbus jacket because I know I will be getting cold and wet. The versatility of this system is what seperates it from the traditional gear Wade mentions. In all but the most extreme conditions, you are able to accomplish what the traditional system accomplishes with less weight, less bulk, and less pieces.

Another assumption...I am not on Sitka's payroll and have no financial interest in the company. But I do know great gear when I try it out, and I have been impressed with Sitka since day one, before I had any affiliation with the company. As a true hunter, and one who appreciates mountaineering style gear that has been designed and manufactured for a hunter, I have found nothing more comfortable, durable, and technically functional than Sitka Gear.

The facts that have been presented have been twisted, everything else has been assumed and bashed. I am passionate about Sitka and will stand by it because I have tested it, used it, abused it, etc. However, I am not close-minded to other systems, and recognize the effectiveness of those systems for their designated and intended purposes.

Corey
 
Marley,

Sportsman's orders from Corporate and distributes to their stores from there. I'm not 100% sure which stores will get how much of what or when, but they have a bunch of it.

Thanks,
Corey
 
Well I guess now we are speaking to each other without actually speaking to each other. Very mature and professional.

Corey you jumped in on this conversation and told us that you were the "Pro Staff Director" at Sitka, you are listed on the Sitka site and you called me a competitor which all implies that you are in their employ. Not on the payroll, OK but you are affiliated and compensated some how. If not then you need a better agent. For all intents and purposes, by your own nomination, you are speaking for Sitka on this thread and I think you have done a very poor job.

Nothing is being twisted. You made some fantastic claims and stepped on your johnson and now you are back peddling. You explained in detail your system and even with my public school ASU education, I can read and count. Base layer, 90% jacket, Downpour/Nimbus Jacket and for the "coldest conditions" add the vest. That is 4 layers weighing 5.1 lbs just for the tops. That is too restrictive, too compressed, too heavy and doesn't have enough insulation or loft to protect you in the "coldest conditions". Further more it will not wick or breathe in that configuration or situation. And even if you are not wearing them all, you are still carrying them all and that is extra, heavy gear that won't do the job as well as the alternative.

If you think that the Sitka fleece vest qualifies as "high Loft" insulation then I gave you way too much credit up front for knowing what you are talking about.

You have turned this into a referendum on the entire Sitka line which is both unnecessary and unfortunate. There are some very good aspects to the Sitka line. My beef is with the Downpour/90% combo but by keeping your system All Sitka, All The Time, you missed the mark completely and your circular logic can't compensate for that.

The first rule of holes is, when you are in one, stop digging.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Wade,

This is my last reply to you. I tried having a friendly conversation with you regarding Sitka Gear and answering your questions in a very civil manner, as well as educating you on the Sitka line, which you obviously needed help understanding. Every time you have twisted the reply into something it was not and your only intention was to bash the Sitka line. You have assumed and exagerrated this entire conversation and out of everyone that has contributed to this, you are the only one that has had a problem, and it occurred in your bathtub. You admitted that you were a competitor to Sitka and were developing a magical jacket that would be like nothing else on the market - hence your reason for arguing in such a close-minded manner.

The only circling I have done is to try and understand your logic, or lack thereof. In every single post you have made, you have made incorrect assumptions and tried to pass them off as fact or "objective". I have made no "fantastic claims" and then backpeddled anywhere in this conversation. You will also notice that I haven't had to go back and edit anything that I have written...

I find it humorous that you would esteem Arcteryx to be the world leader in outdoor clothing, yet say that Sitka doesn't measure up and has strayed from the mountaineering concept...do a little digging and you'll see why your comment is laughable.

Best of luck to you Wade,

Corey
 
This subject doesn't even look like a horse anymore, we've beat it so bad its just a big steaming pile of guts. It's obvious that you are set your way and the rest of us like our way, can't it just be left at that? And don't give me the whole, "I'm the one that has to come in to get you out when your system fails." Because neither your way nor ours is going to get any of us in trouble. There's more in a piece of garment worn than just warmth, wicking, whatever; there is also the factor of comfort, the way it feels on ME (not you or anyone else) I love the way sitka fits and feels let alone all the other things we have talked about. Based on the pictures of you on your website you are a VERY different build than me. What works for you doesn't necessarily mean it will work for me, even if it works for 99% of the people, maybe I'm the 1%.

Ultimately you need to wear what has worked for you and what will probably continue to work for you. I don't have any beef with your system or anyone elses for that matter. Some people are finicky about being wet, others could care less. My dad has to stop hiking every five freaking minutes to take his boots off to adjust his socks 1 mm to the left. Everyone has their thing they desire more than another, nothing wrong with that. You know your gear and seem to be a little OCD about some things that others might not give a crap about. Look at Guy Eastman in his carhartt pants wicking water up to his knees all the time, does it bother him? Doesn't seem to, but that would bug me to no end.

I know what I will continue to wear for now, until something else comes out that will make a drastic change.

To each there own and to insist that everyone is wrong but you does come across as a little arrogant. I know that what you write is probably more in the passionate field than the arrogant field, and I admire passion. After all, isn't that why we are all on this site 24/7?
 
Actually, you have not answered anything. You have not successfully refuted one of my points. I was critical of the 90%/Downpour combo long before anyone approached me about building a better mouse trap and if Sitka called and asked me, I would tell them too because all I care about is getting the product built. In fact, you have one of the boys call me and I will give them the design. If they will build it to spec they can have it for free and the best shell jacket on the market for hunters, military operators and wilderness law enforcement can say Sitka on it. See Corey, the perfect shell is the cure for pride, inexperience and ignorance.

The 90% Jacket leaked at the seams in the field and it failed the patheticly weak Grohe low flow shower head test. It is neither an effective shell nor a good insulator. You don't get it and you don't want to get it because you are in the bag for Sitka. You are not credible and by your own admission you are biased.

I know who works for Sitka and where they came from and that was a smart move and a step in the right direction. They needed it. I hope it pays off for all of us in better gear but it is meaningless until I see their influence and expertise in the line. In the mean time Arcteryx, Cloudveil, Wildthings, Tad Gear, Integral Designs are all still superior products.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-25-08 AT 05:40PM (MST)[p]Just to jump in at the end here. All who are interested in purchasing any Sitka gear this summer should hear me out. For every $100.00 purchase of Sitka gear, you get an entry into their 2008 sweepstakes. The winner of the sweepstakes will win a trophy mule deer hunt with Atkinson Expeditions,llc. (North Central Colorado). Go to www.atkinsonexpeditions.com for the link to the landing page for the sweepstakes details.
I have used the Sitka line for a couple seasons now and have nothing but good things to say about it (and I spend over 100 days a year in the field - works for me) !!!

Hardcore :

You make some good points, but I have not experienced any of the faults you have experienced. Rain, snow, cold, heat - the gear has performed for me everytime.

Good luck to all -

Robert
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-25-08 AT 08:10PM (MST)[p]Marley,

I appreciate what you are saying but I have been taught by the best and have in turn been teaching this stuff for a very long time. There is a right way and a wrong way. The wrong way doesn't always result in a death or injury because the good lord takes care of fools and little children most of the time but it is still technically wrong. We all have our pet peeves but the parameters in which the human body can effectively operate are pretty much the same for all of us and they are narrow and rigid. Exceed them and somebody will have to come and get you. Hopefully they will be as kind, compassionate and sensitive as I am with my patients. Ha!

I got one of the first Gore-Tex mountain parkas ever made in 1976 from Synergy Works and have been testing gear in the worst conditions I could find ever since. I look for bad weather and purposely head into it so I can test, evaluate and improve my gear and my system. When it storms here it storms big and I spend hours, and sometimes entire nights walking/running the neighborhood and our local mountain preserve testing gear from the biggest names in the business. And when it snows I am in the truck and on my way. Boots, packs, base, insulation, shell layers, socks, GPS units, stoves, sleeping bags, lights, radios, knives, optics. You name it. If it is touted to be best in class, it is either on my list to test, I am testing it now or I have already tested it. Why? Because I want the best. Not OK, not satifactory, not 90%. I want the very best there is and I want it to be as light as possible. OCD? You have no idea.

I also bring a unique perspective to the subject. I am a backpacker, fast packer, trail runner, trail rider, hunter, mountaineer, climber, skier, ATVer and then on top of all that add the SAR specialites and wilderness emergency medical training. I do not know of another gear tester, evaluator, critic, or promoter that brings that kind of experience and skill set to one place for this purpose. And what is most interesting to me is that amongst all of those genres, the basic gear systems are the same. It is really only the color and noise factor that distinguishes them.

People do not read my articles in magazines or on my site for discussion or evquivocation, they want decisive information, my opinions and expert advice and I deliver day in and day out. Take it for what it is worth, it cost you nothing but the time it took you to read it. Love it, hate it, wipe your ass with it I don't care, just don't try to get me to buy into and agree to something that I know is flawed. At the end of the day, this does not have to work out to a neat tiddy ending. We do not have to agree. The real progress is made privately. There are a lot of people reading these threads that never join the fight but my PM and email is filled with them. The message gets out there and it is making a difference and I am happy with that.

And we are not talking about fit except as it relates to too many layers. Too many layers results in compression of your insulation which makes it less effective. Too many layers results in constriction or restriction of blood flow which retards your heat generation mechanisms. This is basic Winter Emergency Care stuff from Ski Patrol School guys. There is no right or wrong there. You compress, restrict, constrict in cold weather and you are going to get cold and get hurt. And getting wet in cool or cold weather is not just bad it is deadly. You do not want to have to dry out or wick dry, you want to avoid getting wet from precipitation or perspiration from the very first step. Too many layers do not breathe and are difficult to ventilate and that makes you retain perspiration which makes you cold. I am not talking about UFOs here folks, this is straight out of the basic Wilderness Emergency Medical Technician book. I don't understand why some of you fight this information. I got news for you , the earth is not flat!

People are entitled to do and say and think what ever they want, that is what is great about this forum, but I just cannot sit back and let some of this stuff go by. It's like a coyote crossing the road in front of me. It's is just to big a target to pass up. Coyotes must die.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
I changed my mind.........it is more arrogance than passion.

I'll end here. They do have medicine for your condition you know.
 
I just got an email, another one actually, that said I was wasting my time and that some of you are hopeless, beyond help. Maybe, but I am a samaritan, a rescuer by nature and I never give up until the body has been recovered and called. I will keep trying.

It is just knowledge Marley, there is no reason to be afraid.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Well, I am no expert like HCO, but I bought a bunch of Sitka Gear last year and these are my experiences:

I spent the month of August hunting Bighorn Sheep with my recurve in Colorado. Temps ranged from below freezing to the mid 80s. There was snow and there was rain, there was WIND. I never got my Downpour gear out of my pack, the 90% Jacket was plenty and I found the vest to be extremely warm for its light weight. And, hunting every day, not once was I uncomfortable.

Not once.

I spent 10 days in Montana in November hunting deer and antelope. This was sitting a few hours in the evening, spotting and stalking in the morning/afternoon. Temps were in the 10s-60. Not once was I uncomfortable.

Not once.

I spent many days here in Michigan sitting in trees with temps in the 20s and 30s...all day sits were not comfortable until I added a chemical handwarmer or two. It looks like this year Sitka is addressing that with the Celsius line. I will be getting some to try it out.

I am confident enough from these experiences with my current Sitka Gear that it will perform as intended.

I too like the addition of the zip vents on the Nimbus Jacket. Maybe I should start my own website ;~)
 
Forget the web site, do your own comic book. Sitting all day in a tree stand in 20 to 30 degree weather with just fleece for insulation (great plan, very smart) was uncomfortable until you broke out the little chemical hand warmers (good thing you had them, was it just two packets). Totally plausible. Those things put out 10 or 12 BTUs each and will warm you right up.

And because of your super hunman powers, you do not need the Downpour Jacket so go ahead and leave it at home next time. You don't need it.

$10 bucks says that you are a Jetboil stove fan? Am I right?

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Disclaimer: I have not been trained by the best, bought the best, worked with the best, done the best, proofed the best, thought the best, ... best, ... best, ... blah.

30inchbuck,

The answer is really simple; if you need waterproof get the downpour, if you need limited rain protection get the 90%.

I will say the 90% jacket is easily one of my favorite pieces of gear. The flexibility is remarkable. It will shed some rain and snow, wind, and provide a comfortable level of insulation for on the move hunting activities. My closet is full of Marmot, Goretex, TNF, down, Simms, Polartec, REI, Windpro, Filson, Membrain, Cabelas, Conduit, fleece, Mountain Hardware, Western Mountaineering, wool, Browning, ad nauseam. Even so my favorite backpacking, hunting, hiking, throw-ball-for-dog, walk with the wife jacket is my 90%. I've even been considering buying a non-camo version so my granola-crunching friends will walk within ten feet of me again on the trail.

With that understand the following: Most of my activities take place in Utah. Relatively dry with limited rain. If the forecast calls for extensive rain I will pack a waterproof/breathable shell and use the 90% as a mid-layer. I've been pleasantly surprised at how well the 90% will shed rain and snow. After the first year I did have to re-apply a DWR treatment to get the shedding action back. It has been my experience that waterproof/breathable shells are far more waterproof than they are breathable. The 90% jacket soft shell combination of light to moderate rain shedding in a truly breathable piece has been much appreciated and utilized.

It has been my experience you can expect great things from Sitka gear.
 
Thanks Wade.

I have been to your website more than a few times and appreciate your information.
 
I hold strong opinions about my gear choices but I try to keep an open mind about things and I am always looking for new ideas and techniques that are better than the ones that I am currently employing. I also have an extensive network of contacts developed over the years which include Mountain Rescue Techs, Ski Patrollers, alpine guides, SWAT officers, SEALS, Rangers, Park Rangers, Fish and Game officers, etc. Many of them are also hunters. I will refrain from using the term "best" but let's just say that these are the people who can't turn back regardless of how bad things get out there. These are the people I turn to when I have questions or need a reality check.

You will have to trust that I accurately and objectively presented the question to them but based on the response I got, I am not making any changes to my system. However, that is not to say that the use of softshells is not popular. In fact they are even more popular then I expected but they are limited to close in and casual uses not hardcore trips or missions. Remember that these guys are devout ounce counters because they are carrying so much tactical or patient treatment and extrication gear. I would put them in the Draconian catagory of weight cutters with regard to their personal snivel gear and have a fairly high pain and discomfort threshold. When they are working, they are still using the tried and true base, insulation and shell layer system with active ventialtion techniques.

Anyway, if you still like the idea of using a softshell piece in your wilderness clothing system that's cool but you might as well have the best ones available. Sorry, there is that "B" word again. There are jackets available on the market that are half the weight of the 90% jacket, not as stiff and utilize factory seam tape or welded seams to take them to near waterproof levels of water resistance. They are not camo but they come in sage green and coyote brown variations. I like the ones made of Polartec Power Sheild and Power Sheild Lightweight, Gore-Tex Windstopper and Windstopper Featherweight, and Schoeller Dryskin and Dynamic, Venitia, and Tweave.

Like a thinner soft shell material as a next to skin base layer? Try anything made of Polartec Power Stretch.

I will post specific models on my site later in the summer but my favorite softshell is the Cloudveil Serendipity Jacket. It goes great with jeans and ropers.

Hope everybody got a little something out of this thread. You could only have this kind of participation at Monster Muleys. It's the best, damn, sorry, it is a great forum.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
Hopefully, I am not the only one looking for that product.
Got in this morning at 0330 from an ass kicker of a trip to Montana for the Primal Quest 2008 race. You should see what these people wear over the 10 day race. 28 to 95 degrees, 5000 to 12000 feet of elevation, sunshine to hard rain and snow. Talk about hardcore.

I would love to see a camo clad team enter and finish next year. Anybody interested in that?

I did a lot of testing while I was in the field up there with some surprising results. I am working on the article about the trip for my site but right now I need a nap.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
I can't help but think that the practical effective limits of a waterproof/breathable fabric will always be less than desirable.

At some point the physics of a thin, flexible barrier that keeps water out, but allows vapor to escape will be reached. I personally think we can expect, at best, incremental and marginal improvements with diminishing returns in future waterproof/breathable garments.

I doubt, hoping that I'm wrong, we will ever have rain jackets that can breath sufficiently to keep up with a hard sweat.
 
rradams- I hope your wrong but I will take the 100% waterproofness over breatheability everytime. Regardless of the garment, moisture is managed by the user. I can regulate the moisture from the inside, but my outershell must,without fail, block rain, wind, an snow. I know there have new products introduced that are getting better at breathing as Hardcore suggested in earlier posts. That's the fun part of this gear obsession is seeing what works best and seeing what the manufacturers come up with next. Until next time. CDN
 
kinda like 90% pregnant. either you are waterproof or you ain't
you are pregnant or you ain't
flyingbrass
cold dead hands
 
CDN, I know what you mean about gear obsession.

In recent years I've given up the "bomb-proof" outer shell with layering as my primary system. My hunting tends to be highly aerobic with lots of sweating. I found I was wet more from the inside than the outside. Soft shells, so to speak, have kept me more comfortable overall. If the weather looks to be particularly wet, I will throw in the old hard shell as a standby. Other than that, I figure my emergency space blanket will suffice for a poncho if need be. As I noted in a previous post, I hunt mainly in Utah with its typical mostly dry and hot weather.
 
So what does everyone suggest for all of the "average joe" hunters out there that cannot afford sitka gear or all those other brands that I cannot pronounce?
 
I have the sitka pants and shirt and the Cabelas MT050 rainjacket. I really like both of them. I too sweat alot when I am hunting, if I get too hot I stop and cool off, when it rains I put on the rainjacket, when it quits I take it off. I can't for the life of me figure out why it is such a argument which is better? I don't care what you are wearing, you are going to get sweaty, wet, cold, miserable, hot, dry, snowed on, blown on etc.....Deal with it, there is no perfect do it all article of clothing. So get what you can, and take care of yourself when it gets western. How hard is that?
 
I just received my 2008 Sitka gear. I ordered the Ascent Pant, 90% Jacket, and Traverse Shirt. My only gripe is that the sizing runs way small in my opinion. I am 165lbs with a 32"waist and I ordered "Mediums" and the stuff fit me like spandex. I am going to exchange for "large" and I have decided for the extra $40, I am going to return the 90% jacket and get the Celsius. The 90% jacket seemed way to light to keep me warm in the high mountains of NM.
 
>I just received my 2008 Sitka
>gear. I ordered the
>Ascent Pant, 90% Jacket, and
>Traverse Shirt. My only
>gripe is that the sizing
>runs way small in my
>opinion. I am 165lbs
>with a 32"waist and I
>ordered "Mediums" and the stuff
>fit me like spandex.
>I am going to exchange
>for "large" and I have
>decided for the extra $40,
>I am going to return
>the 90% jacket and get
>the Celsius. The 90%
>jacket seemed way to light
>to keep me warm in
>the high mountains of NM.
>

will the base layer fit underneath or no?? in your opinion
 
According to the size charts, a medium shirt would probably be too tight for you at 165 lbs. The pants should be pretty close, but I'd say you definitely would want a large on the tops. And to answer 3blade, yes, the base layers will fit nicely under the other layers as the fit is designed to be layered. If you have a base shirt that fits right, the vest, 90% jacket, etc., will all fit over the base layer perfectly.

Corey
 
I just received my exchanges and the size "large" is a much better fit. As I mentioned earlier, I decided to pay the extra $50 bucks and upgrade from the 90% jacket to the Celsius. This was the best decision I made. The celsius jacket is the real deal for those of us that spend 40-50 days per fall in the mountains of the West. I wasnt very impressed with the 90% jacket for $250, but the Celsius looks like it is going to be worth every penny.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-01-08 AT 09:00PM (MST)[p]I'm glad to hear good things about the Celsius Jacket, I have a Nimbus on order but have not received it yet. I have high hopes that it is the one to replace my MTO50 Quiet Pack jacket.

I have received a couple of emails that I think either misrepresented or misunderstood my position on this subject. Let me be clear, again, my ##### is not with Sitka per se. In fact, I have written many times that they might just be our best hope for getting it right and that they are precisely the kind of outfit I want to see do well. And when they do get it right, nobody will trumpet that louder and longer than me. My issue is with the 90% Jacket/Downpour Jacket combo concept which we have already covered at length.

And by the way, Doityourself, with the right gear and techniques it is possible to hunt hard in almost any conditions without getting wet, cold and miserable.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-08 AT 01:15AM (MST)[p]Wow ! I just read all 93 posts on this thread.
The one thing I learned from it is that if I had to share the same camp with HCO....is after about day two I would probably sprint out into a blizzard in nothing but my waffle pattern long johns and hope I got hypothermia and died !
 
Don't worry, you'll get used to him.

I don't always agree with HCO myself, but have a lot of respect for him. The info on his website is a great resource.
 
jagrmystr

I wouldn't let you die. I might let you suffer for a while but I wouldn't let you die. Besides, I am real particular about who I share a campsite with anyway.

Do you know what the leading cause of death is in the back country? Pride and ego. If you are still wearing waffle pattern long johns brother, you need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the the 21st century.

Peace, love and understanding.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
>kinda like 90% pregnant. either you
>are waterproof or you ain't
>
>you are pregnant or you ain't
>
>flyingbrass
>cold dead hands


most insight out of all 90something posts. could have been ended a lot quicker.

i'd have to agree with Wade on this. MT050 good price and excellent performance.
i do like the ascent pants though.
still waiting.
 
I learned at the Outdoor Retailer show this weekend that Sitka has gone through the licensing process with Gore. No small task. That means that we will see Gore-Tex and other Gore products in their line in the future. That is great news and a huge step in the right direction, in my opinion. Congratulations Sitka.

Also, I specificly looked for a system that uses a softshell and hardshell combination like the 90% and Downpour Jacket combo but could not find one. If anybody knows of another similar system on the market please let me know.

Wade
www.HardcoreOutdoor.com
 
There will be some great products coming from Sitka in years to follow! I look forward to the advancements! Sitka already has awesome product but will only get better!

Jared "J-Rod" Bloomgren
PSE Pro Staff-SD
Sitka Gear Pro Staff
Mossy Oak Pro Staff
Wac'em Broadheads Pro Staff
Hips Targets Pro Staff
Team UOA Pro Staff www.teamuoa.com
www.myspace.com/jaredbloomgren
http://www.camospace.com/Bloomgren

"Getting close to game undetected and maintaining self control while delivering a well placed shot are the true keys to bowhunting success." -M.R.James
 

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