Unit 1 or 27

[jpomazi]

So I know the draw is still about 6 weeks away but my group of 3 might actually have a chance to draw this year. I know a guide who I hunted with in Alaska who lives in Arizona and guides there as well. I have maps for both and am trying to figure out which one to choose. The increase in tag numbers is a concern. This would be for the early season archery tag by the way. I have sent out feelers to guys who have hunted both. Probably a win win but still a big decision. My Alaskan guide says Unit 1 is overrated. A great unit but overrated. What do you guys that live there think, especially those that have hunted it. Know there will probably be a lot of different opinions on this and that is fine. Thanks for all comments. I know there is alot of wildnerness in 27 and that's fine. We are from Oregon and have access to horses/mules if need be.

 

[oilcan]

What does he mean by "overrated"?
I have hunted unit 1 Archery and "overrated" would not be the word used to describe it.
What kind of hunt are you looking for and what are your expectations?

 

[jpomazi]

Hi oilcan. His contention was that by increasing the tag numbers to 305 as is proposed or even might have taken place by now coupled with the 75 cow tags that will put alot of pressure on that relatively small unit. He also doesn't like the fact that the bulls when pressured can jump onto the reservation. His words not mine. He did say it can be a phenomenal hunt at times. Anyway we are looking for the quality hunt that Arizona has the reputation of being. We don't want to be constantly running into other hunters. Keeping in mind that we will be there the whole season along with arriving a couple days early we want a reasonable chance of all three of us having an opportunity at a 300" plus bull.

 

[tooele]

Yeah I'm with him WAY OVERrated. Go with 27 bigger bulls, more of them and certainly no reservation or steep nasty country for the bulls in 27 to get over to with the pressure. They mostly will be out in nice flat meadows in 27. You know that unit 9 and 10 are much higher rated in the magazines, you may want to consider them instead as well.

 

[sagebrush]

You shouldn't have a problem in either unit for an opportunity at a 300 or better bull, if you do your part. But that's true in most AZ units during the rut.

 

[CABugle]

I have never hunted unit 27, but did hunt unit 1 this past Nov/Dec on the late rifle hunt and overrated is NOT a word I would use. A ton of bulls and some good bulls also. Lots of different types of country to hunt there and very good access as well. I would love to have an archery tag for that unit.

CABugle

 

[jpomazi]

Thanks guys. Do you think the extra tag numbers are going to overly crowd the units? Will it detract from the quality of hunt it has been in the past?

 

[CouesFanatic]

Yes, the amount of tags in there is going to hurt the hunt.

No steep nasty country in 27? haha, nice one guys.

 

[tooele]

Oh yeah, high tag numbers have already hurt the unit. They augmented the tag numbers 2 to 3 years ago and the unit is in a downward spiral. The recent fire took the numbers down even more and now there just isn't much habitat left. Figure into it that after the fire the fish and game didn't reduce the tag numbers at all but gave out more cow tags you get the idea. Here is a little dirty secret no one will tell you about unit 1 either, but during the early archery bull hunt, they also have an archery cow hunt going on. So up the hunter numbers by a few hundred in the field even more. Picture this: You waited 10 years finally drew your dream tag, 300 inch herd bull is coming right by you, all of a sudden you see movement to your right and it sounds like a herd of 3 sick bugling bulls. They won't stop bugling, the real elk takes his cows and leaves, all of a sudden 3 guys come out of the trees and are pissed cause they almost called in the cows,which they are trying to kill. Cow elk hunters have no respect for your once in a lifetime hunt. Hope you are getting the picture.

 

[CouesFanatic]

Unfortunately thanks to the F & G, almost all the archery hunts are turning into what you described. Many units have had increasing tag numbers in the last 5 years, for every hunt also.

 

[SanJuan]

I would agree the tag numbers are too high in 1, but I would disagree with the statement that the fire reduced habitat when in fact it did quite the opposite.

The mountains, not the hills.

 

[birdog]

Oh it did indeed reduce the habitat, that is just scientific fact, now what you are talking about is the future habitat will be much better. It normally takes from 3-5 years to get to that point. The first 1-3 years is reduced habitat. So better days should be around the corner, perhaps offsetting the increase in tag numbers, however the man is talking about putting in for this year. If he wants to wait a couple years then that might be the case, but as for now, the herd is not as good as it was and is recovering according to all accounts. There are better units than 1. And by the way 27 is steep nasty country and has suffered just as bad as unit 1. If you want a good hunt your better units for this year will be more north. Just my opinion.

 

[SanJuan]

Which scientific research are you referring to?

The mountains, not the hills.

 

[WapitiBob]

The only habitat the fire reduced is the thermal cover the timber provided. The new growth grasses and barley they planted more than made up for any lost forage.

 

[Zim]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-25-12 AT 10:25AM (MST)[p]I was just researching this a bit, and the numbers I saw did not indicate an increase in the archery tag quota in unit 27 the last 5 years. It does appear the demand decreased there last year. We have 11 points which has drawn that hunt the last 5 years.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club

 

[WapitiBob]

not sure what i was thinking as some of the burn area won't be growing back for a long long time, regardless of what they plant.

27 will be the better hunt if other hunters is a concern.

 

[SanJuan]

There is a small percentage of the areas that aren't coming back but the vast majority of the area has an incredible amount of feed.

The mountains, not the hills.

 

[CouesFanatic]

Zim,

27 archery went up this year from 150 to 225.

 

[CouesFanatic]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-25-12 AT 01:50PM (MST)[p]Just looked it up.

Unit 27 archery

2006 100
2007 100
2008 150
2009 150
2010 150
2011 150
2012 150
2013 225


Unit 1 archery
2006 150
2007 150
2008 150
2009 150
2010 150
2011 ?
2012 245
2013 350

 

[WapitiBob]

2011 was 245.

 

[Zim]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-25-12 AT 09:46PM (MST)[p]OK, Well none of this sounds good at all.

I also looked up harvest success rate on HT in unit 1 and it has dropped steadily the last 5 years from 56% to 52% to 45% to 39% to 35%. Now even more tags! Yikes.



***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, UBNM, UWC & the SFW Hate Club

 

[WillPower]

Well this is a interesting thread for me as I am a NR with 11 points and unit 27 and unit 1 will be my first choices as they were last year, but not feeling as excited now..............

I have been waiting about 25 years to draw AZ due to missing a few draws and screwing up my app about 20 years ago and burning 4 or 5 points on a cow tag. Unfortunately, I did not put in for the draw in 2008, so not only do I not have the hunter safety point, but not the loyalty either. To further complicate 2013, my brother goes every other year and this is his on year and we usually go to New Mexico either by draw or the landowner route, none of which are guaranteed. So, sounds like I might have a really good chance to draw AZ, especially with the increase in tags with 11 bonus points in 2013????? But, do to my bro wanting to hunt with me this year, I could bonus point AZ, which means I would have 13 points in 2014 with the loyalty point finally kicking in. My Arizona goal will be a 350 bull, so I would welcome any thoughts from your AZ boys on strategy. Please feel free to PM me with any thoughts. If I punt to 2014 with 13 points, maybe I should look to unit 10 or 9. Maybe I should hire a guide since I will be 48 in 2014 and who the heck knows if I will ever draw AZ again. I always have been a DIY archery elk hunter and have a 310 and a 320 under my belt so far with a few smaller bulls, so would really like to hold our for a 350ish bull in AZ. Decisions, Decisions, Decisions! Not sure why but not feeling happy-happy-happy about the draw for various reasons.

WP



"My only regret in life is setting my goals too low"

 

[canon]

PM sent willpower.

 

[WapitiBob]

LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-12 AT 11:52PM (MST)[p]
The increase in tags translates to 10 additional for the nr draw and at 11 you have about a 30% chance of drawing unit 1, with the info that's available. There are over 50 applicants ahead of you and over 60 in your point pool, provided no new apps come in. The NR cap will be 35 tags this year.
The 30% is a guess because the dept. has not created a report that has the res/nr breakdown, per point, per hunt unit, so the best you can do is look for the break in successful apps or look at the re/nr breakdown for the entire hunt code and "assume" an even distribution thru the point levels.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

Putting a different light on it...

With 350 permits, 70 will be relegated to the BP pass and 35 of the TOTAL can go to NRs, regardless if it's done in the BP pass or general draw that follows.

Of course, I'm only guessing, but I doubt very much that half of the pass permits will go to NRs before the 70 total is hit. More than likely a nice handful will make it to the next step. IMO, I would apply with the points you have. I know NRs who have drawn early rifle/archery bull elk permits in that unit with less than half of your 11 points.

Good luck if you choose to apply.

TONY MANDILE

How To Hunt Coues Deer

 

[WillPower]

Thanks for the suggestions and the PM's. I will probably take my shot at 27 and 1 again this year and see what happens. I have read to much good and bad about units 9 and 10 in terms of hunting incidents, etc. to try those units. Up until last year, I have always put in for 3a/3c, but quality is not what it used to be there according to my good friend in Heber. That's his unit knowledge wise, but he has suggested I consider other units even though he son killed a 371 last year..............living in a unit has its advantages.

Thanks again for the feedback and Happy New Year!

WP

"My only regret in life is setting my goals too low"

 

[WapitiBob]

Good luck in the draws coming up. You should have a good hunt.
In 2010 the NR cap was 15 tags. 10 of those were drawn as 1st choice and 5 were drawn as 2nd choice, all in the 20% bonus pass.
In 2011, the NR cap was 24 tags. 16 of those were drawn as 1st choice and 8 were drawn as 2nd choice, again all in the 20% bonus pass.
I have not yet filed a request for 2012 info but I heard of a unit 9 archery and I believe a unit 1 archery tag making it out of the 20% pass and to the 1-2 pass draw, so there is a chance for those not in the max pool, just not much of one. With the additional tags this year it will be interesting to see how many, if any make it out of the 20% pass.

What would benefit everybody is for the AZ Game IT dept to create the report that has been asked for on numerous occasions by people outside the dept as well as Dept. staff themselves. That report would break out RES and NR applicants, on a per point basis, per hunt number, and show applicants applied and applicants successful. Everyone would know how many apps were in their respective point pools as well as how many were ahead. You could then make an educated decision on where to apply.
The downside to that is it would show, as the unpublished report shows, if you are not in the max point pool as a NR, there are many hunts that are essentially not drawable.

It's rather disconcerting when the head of the Draw Dept can't tell an applicant how many Non Residents applied to 6a Archery with 5 points because there's no report.

 

[Zim]

Will,

Talked it over with my hunting partner. We decided to stay with unit 9 first choice, unit 1 second choice. Both archery. We have 11 BP's. Maybe we'll get lucky and meet in 1.

Are you applying in New Mexico this year? I have to check the overlap, but I finally talked my IL hunting buddy to go for the Pecos hunt if we don't draw anything prior to the deadline.

***********************************
Member RMEF, Pope & Young Club, NRA, UWC & the SFW Hate Club

 

[jodog]

I talked to a long time well known guide today that lives real close to 1 and 27 and told him I have 10 points and was wondering what he thought about me putting in for 1 - 27 or 3c he told me you can, but with 10 points he would hold out for unit 9 archery and thats comeing from a guy that I called to hire if drawn in those units this year... Back to the drawing board.

 

[WapitiBob]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-13 AT 09:26PM (MST)[p]I'm guessing he didn't bother to tell you that in 2012 it took 14 points for just a sniff of unit 9 and there are almost 400 ahead of you, not including the 150 in your pool. At 10 points for 2013 it's a long long wait and only 1 tag has gone to the 1-2 pass in the last 3 years.

 

[WillPower]

Zim, yes putting in for NM and thats my problem as the seasons do over lap some. My brother goes with me every other year and this is his on year, so struggling with AZ at the moment. If I dont draw this year then I will have 13 points in 2014, 14 if I get the hunter safety point, so could draw unit 9 possibly in 2014 if I don't draw unit 27 or unit 1 this year. Sounds like I would draw unit 27 with 11 points, so gotta make some decisions. Unit 27 is the type of hunting I like, but not sold on the quality there com;pared to 1, 9 and 10, hear good things, but rarely see any pictures from that unit, not that the unit is always offered up in alot of threads. Decisions - Decisions!

WillPower

"My only regret in life is setting my goals too low"

 

[jodog]

Wapitibob, he told me all about the points to get into 9 and the wait. He was just saying that unit 9 is that good in his opinion and at 10 points he would wait it out and he has been selling hunts in 27 and 1 for a long time. He kept saying 9 is an early archery hunt second to none, his words not mine. I can go places and hunt elk every year but I will probably only have this one chance to hunt AZ elk in unit 9 unless I move to AZ.

 

[fin little]

Jodog, Im right behind you with 9 points and I honestly believe it would take me 20 ponts to draw 9 again. It will likely take 16 to draw as a nonres this year. Ive done late rifle and early archery on 9 and have spent countless sept days on the unit since the late 80s. Its worth waiting for the archery hunt if you have the years and patience. I dont . Im trying to decide between a 9 late hunt or finding a different unit to bow hunt. Im leaning toward the latter. There is nothing like 9 in Sept,with or without a tag.

 

[jodog]

fin little, I was really thinking about trying to cash in this year but after spending about an hour on the phone with the outfitter and him not trying to sell me a hunt I know I'm getting very close to getting I'm really thinking I will wait it out and hunt NM, WY, CO for a few more years and see what it will take to get a 9 tag then. I can always put in for another unit then if I don't want to wait any longer. I remember when I bought my first AZ point thinking I'll never get to 10 points... well he I am....time flys !

 

[huntazido]

Let me first say I have never heard this before they are just my own thoughts. I don't want to start a rumor.

I have always thought it would be nice if AZ G&F would eliminate the 10% rule once every 8-10 years. Keep the 20% rule so the guys with most points are still most likely to draw but then let everyone have a chance to draw. This way it would hopefully reduce the point creep for non-residents and once every decade or so all NR's would have a chance to draw. As a resident of AZ, I know this would really hurt resident draw odds the year they get rid of the cap but it would be good for all those folks who don't live in our state and would give the dept. a massive influx of funds due to all the NR tags issued.

These are just my thoughts and like I said, I have never heard of anything like this happening.

 

[excaliber]

How about pulling 1 or 2 of the NR tags out of the 20% bonus pool and having them available to us NR hunters in the regular draw.
That would allow people who do not have max points to battle it out for those tags. That would give us a chance at a tag and probably draw more people into the draw. This would make AZ more money.
Many NR hunters refuse to get into the AZ game knowing they will never draw a tag in the premium units with the way the current system works.

 

[OutdoorWriter]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-13 AT 04:32PM (MST)[p]>>How about pulling 1 or 2 of the NR tags out of the 20% bonus pool and having them available to us NR hunters in the regular draw.<<

Probably because there ain't no such thing as resident/NR permits until numbers are drawn, hunt choices are looked at and the resident status is decided. Only then is it determined whether that permit goes to a resident or NR. It's the luck of the draw that determines what is left and what isn't after the 20% pass is over.


TONY MANDILE

How To Hunt Coues Deer

 

[Gazelle]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-13 AT 04:38PM (MST)[p]I would love to see AZ go to the Nevada type draw. Designated # of tags for NR's, no tags reserved for max pt. holders. More pts you have, better your chance. No pts, you still have a shot. Pretty sure they'd sell alot more licenses.

 

[azoutback]

>LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-13
>AT 04:38?PM (MST)
>
>I would love to see AZ
>go to the Nevada type
>draw. Designated # of tags
>for NR's, no tags reserved
>for max pt. holders. More
>pts you have, better your
>chance. No pts, you still
>have a shot. Pretty sure
>they'd sell alot more licenses.
>

Not me, Az has the best system IMO

 

[Bwht4x4]

AZ is not the worst, nor the best. NV system is my favorite system and with that they see a lot of my money. I apply for everything; PIW, Dream Tags, etc. I think AZ and some other states are doing a dis-service to the NR hunter. We're not saying we want all the tags, but make it fair. At least set something aside for us like NV.

 

[Robiland]

So are you guys telling me, and please be honest, (cuz i wanted to start adding AZ to my list of apps) that if I apply this year with 0 point, I have 0% chance of drawing a tag? No tags unless you are in the top of the line? I hope thats not the case, cuz I might not apply if so.

 

[Bwht4x4]

Others can get into the details better then me, but for any of the good quality hunts for all species you likely won't draw until you reach the upper point pools.

IMO, if you have 0 points for pronghorn I don't think it'd be worth applying unless you are in your early 20s. I have 13 and I think I'm at least 10 to 15 years out for one of the better hunts in unit 10.

Any decent elk hunt (i.e. archery, early rifle or early muzzy) I think is nearly impossible to draw unless you're in the upper point pool. Same goes for the quality deer hunts too.

 

[CouesFanatic]

It all depends on what you want to hunt. The problem is that most nonresidents only want to hunt 9 for elk and the strip or bab for deer. There are big elk and deer in lots of units across this state.

I'm glad you nonresidents think its almost impossible to draw a decent hunt, but that is simply not the case.

 

[Gazelle]

>So are you guys telling me,
>and please be honest, (cuz
>i wanted to start adding
>AZ to my list of
>apps) that if I apply
>this year with 0 point,
>I have 0% chance of
>drawing a tag? No
>tags unless you are in
>the top of the line?
> I hope thats not
>the case, cuz I might
>not apply if so.


Perfect example here. He wont apply because of poor to no odds. Run it like Nev, AZ gets the Lic fee, He has a shot at ANY tag.

 

[azoutback]

>Others can get into the details
>better then me, but for
>any of the good quality
>hunts for all species you
>likely won't draw until you
>reach the upper point pools.
>
>
>IMO, if you have 0 points
>for pronghorn I don't think
>it'd be worth applying unless
>you are in your early
>20s. I have 13
>and I think I'm at
>least 10 to 15 years
>out for one of the
>better hunts in unit 10.
>
>
>Any decent elk hunt (i.e. archery,
>early rifle or early muzzy)
>I think is nearly impossible
>to draw unless you're in
>the upper point pool.
>Same goes for the quality
>deer hunts too.


Any early elk hunt in AZ is at very least decent. Non res draw early elk quite often with few points. You just wont draw 9,10,1,27 or 3a/3c without a bunch of points. Same for deer. Some very good units that arent on the strip.

 

[jodog]

If you are a non res. with no points you will not draw any of the top elk units. I don't think without points you will draw anything for elk as a non res. You can draw some units with a few points as a non res. As a res. you have a chance of drawing any tag. I know a guy who is a res. and drew unit 10 early rifle with no points.

 

[WapitiBob]

My data is for early Archery. I have not looked at the other hunts.

As a NR with zero points, you will not be in the 20% bonus point draw. Your only chance is in the random draw and the only tags you can draw are ones which made it out of the bonus draw. When you aquire one point, you will be included in the Bonus draw. With the 10% NR cap, per hunt, there are less than a dozen hunts that routinely have tags available in the random draw, for early archery.
For 2011, only one hunt had more than 20 NR tags available in that random draw. More than half had less than 10.