Up front fee charges
- Thread starter muzzy100
- Start date
R
ronaldo
Guest
I had the $12 application fees for both New Mexico Elk and Deer charged to my credit card immediately after applying online back on April 6 ,2009, if that is what you are referring to.
Ronaldo
Ronaldo
Stinkystomper.....that infinite source of knowledge that he is... called me today at work wanting me to tell him what he had drawn out for as his card was hit for four charges. I think the charges have FINALLY started to come out now. Go figure, the NMDGF couldn't get it right again! Oh well at least they finally did it....
littlemonster
Active Member
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- 219
I just looked on my account on the NMDGF website and seen that they withdrew the money from my checking account today.
K
ktc
Guest
My credit card was charged 270. NR antelope is my guess. At first glance I thought my daughter drew a Utah Boulder elk tag.
It wouldn't surprise me if this is not the way they do it from here out. They say it was because of the complaints about draw odds but it all comes down to the money. I would be willing to bet but too lazy to look it all up, that they the highest numbers of applicants are deer and elk. If they go to up front on these two as well they will lose a high amount of applicants and they aren't willing to go there. I know I'm cynical about the whole deal but those Richardson appointees have left a very bad taste in my mouth!!
mozey
Long Time Member
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- 3,101
Cookie,
I hear you on the distrust of Government appointees, but really, how much money could they actually be making at only $9 a pop? I am not saying they're doing this, but our risk for appointees is more likely along the lines of them cutting special deals both above and below the table for their buddies.
If a 100K of the those applicants are unsuccessful, that's still only $900K. With a Government-run agency, it's probable that all of the fixed costs are already going to be funded with taxpayer money, and I don't know how much additional varible costs would be to process each app, but from what I've seen regarding the costs of other systems, I don't believe that NMDGF is making an obscene amount of bank from this process.
My guess is they probably aren't making much more than $4 per unsuccessful app or $400K, if even that. Don't know where that money goes, but it's probably not enough to cover the annual expense of three or four G&F wardens plus their vehicles.
It would be fun to find out just so that we know for sure, but the "finding out" is the kind of stuff I do for a living, and at least on the surface, I don't see a bunch of high-risk indicators there for us hunt applicants.
I hear you on the distrust of Government appointees, but really, how much money could they actually be making at only $9 a pop? I am not saying they're doing this, but our risk for appointees is more likely along the lines of them cutting special deals both above and below the table for their buddies.
If a 100K of the those applicants are unsuccessful, that's still only $900K. With a Government-run agency, it's probable that all of the fixed costs are already going to be funded with taxpayer money, and I don't know how much additional varible costs would be to process each app, but from what I've seen regarding the costs of other systems, I don't believe that NMDGF is making an obscene amount of bank from this process.
My guess is they probably aren't making much more than $4 per unsuccessful app or $400K, if even that. Don't know where that money goes, but it's probably not enough to cover the annual expense of three or four G&F wardens plus their vehicles.
It would be fun to find out just so that we know for sure, but the "finding out" is the kind of stuff I do for a living, and at least on the surface, I don't see a bunch of high-risk indicators there for us hunt applicants.
LAST EDITED ON Apr-23-09 AT 03:28PM (MST)[p] Here's a good one.. I got a call from my credit card company that said they denied a charge of around 3000$ for the NM F&G because of suspicion.
So what are they going to do now? I have been on hold on the F&G line for a half hour with no answer..
What a clusterfu## the greeedy F&G are creating.
When I go into my account with the F&G it shows the status of "paid"
"edit" Just got through. They said they have been getting A LOT of this happening. Good... credit card companies need to keep the identity theft and card theft thing under control. I had my card number hacked about a month ago.
The NM F&G is going to have to work for that money.
So what are they going to do now? I have been on hold on the F&G line for a half hour with no answer..
What a clusterfu## the greeedy F&G are creating.
When I go into my account with the F&G it shows the status of "paid"
"edit" Just got through. They said they have been getting A LOT of this happening. Good... credit card companies need to keep the identity theft and card theft thing under control. I had my card number hacked about a month ago.
The NM F&G is going to have to work for that money.
S
scottyboy
Guest
my CC got hit with the NR ibex and bighorn fees yesterday..
Mozey, I see your side also but with all of the bitching about how they don't have enough money already I figure they aren't willing to give up their bread and butter(deer and elk apps) The part I wasn't sure about was if they are the highest percentage of apps but would bet they are. Even if they only "make" $4 off each one it's really where they get most of their money in the license process and if they were to make that up front also they would risk losing even more over the long run. This up front was smoke and mirrors from the start. Just another way of the powers that be to try and take me for an idiot. If the up front was an honest attempt at making the draw pool a little more true hunter friendly then why in the hell didn't they do it all??????????????????????????????????
you both have good points.i think they are going to get licence fee either way.but by only charging the app fee they double their app revinue because most people are able to apply a lot more freinds and family.i'm sure it's not millions but if it wasn't alot why didn't they leave it the way it was ten years ago.one day they will see the online sys is just a big headache.i would love to see it go back.just my 2 cents
Califelkslayer
Long Time Member
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- 4,078
I think it's a wash, $9.00 versus the interest on a lot less apps. It's your state and you have the power/input. Personally I'd like to see the fees up front. Much better draw odds.
With interest rates close to zero, they are not making much on the up front payment. They will get far more revenue from the application fee. Do the math, take last year's numbers and round off and use highest price tags:
Deer
66,000 total applicants for deer x $9 = $594,000
10,000 Non Resident Applicants x $355 = $3,550,000
56,000 Residident Applicants x $39 = $2,184,000
Even if they get 2% APR interest on the up front fees that's only $19,144.
Elk
69,000 total applicants for elk x $9 = $594,000
15,000 Non Resident Applicants x $772 (best case) = $11,580,000
54,000 Resident Applicants x$92 (best case) = $4,968,000
Even if they get 2% APR interest on the up front fees that's only $55,250
So if they get significantly fewer applicants due to paying up front, they are loosing revenue. Sure its better for draw odds, but not better for their cash flow.
Deer
66,000 total applicants for deer x $9 = $594,000
10,000 Non Resident Applicants x $355 = $3,550,000
56,000 Residident Applicants x $39 = $2,184,000
Even if they get 2% APR interest on the up front fees that's only $19,144.
Elk
69,000 total applicants for elk x $9 = $594,000
15,000 Non Resident Applicants x $772 (best case) = $11,580,000
54,000 Resident Applicants x$92 (best case) = $4,968,000
Even if they get 2% APR interest on the up front fees that's only $55,250
So if they get significantly fewer applicants due to paying up front, they are loosing revenue. Sure its better for draw odds, but not better for their cash flow.
What doesn't make sense is to go back and charge cards months after the app period.
Charge the $12 and the License fee at the time of the app. If it doesn't go thru, the applicant knows it and re tries at a later date or figures out what it's going to cost and doesn't apply for that hunt. Refund for those who don't draw and be done with it.
No late night calls from NM to guys whose cards bounced, no headaches, no hassles.
Charge the $12 and the License fee at the time of the app. If it doesn't go thru, the applicant knows it and re tries at a later date or figures out what it's going to cost and doesn't apply for that hunt. Refund for those who don't draw and be done with it.
No late night calls from NM to guys whose cards bounced, no headaches, no hassles.
mozey
Long Time Member
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- 3,101
LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-09 AT 08:36AM (MST)[p]hntbambi is correct.
The missing piece of information is the contribution margin of each application fee, which I doubt any of us here would know.
But if it's $0.50 per applicant, then using hntbambi's numbers, NMDGF would be making an additional $33K on deer and $34.5K on elk over and above interest earned. If it's $8.00 per applicant, then NMDGF would make $528K and $552K.
This all assumes that the fixed costs of this system have already been paid with taxpayer funds.
But what we're really talking about is the contribution margin associated with the incremental difference in the number of applicants due to up-front fees. Assume that next year, the up-front fee requirement reduces the number of applicants for both deer and elk by 10K each. Assuming hntbambi's numbers, the potential earned interest that NMDGF would gain would be approximately $64K, and depending on the actual contribution margin per applicant, the total reduced contribution would be somewhere between $0 (minimum) and $180K (maximum), for a maximum possible net reduction of $116K.
Again, I just don't see those kinds of numbers as being significant enough to make NMDGF want to abuse the process strictly for its own financial gain. Seems to me that the potential money to be made would not be worth all the additional hassle, like crashed systems, etc.
The missing piece of information is the contribution margin of each application fee, which I doubt any of us here would know.
But if it's $0.50 per applicant, then using hntbambi's numbers, NMDGF would be making an additional $33K on deer and $34.5K on elk over and above interest earned. If it's $8.00 per applicant, then NMDGF would make $528K and $552K.
This all assumes that the fixed costs of this system have already been paid with taxpayer funds.
But what we're really talking about is the contribution margin associated with the incremental difference in the number of applicants due to up-front fees. Assume that next year, the up-front fee requirement reduces the number of applicants for both deer and elk by 10K each. Assuming hntbambi's numbers, the potential earned interest that NMDGF would gain would be approximately $64K, and depending on the actual contribution margin per applicant, the total reduced contribution would be somewhere between $0 (minimum) and $180K (maximum), for a maximum possible net reduction of $116K.
Again, I just don't see those kinds of numbers as being significant enough to make NMDGF want to abuse the process strictly for its own financial gain. Seems to me that the potential money to be made would not be worth all the additional hassle, like crashed systems, etc.
L
Largo3
Guest
If you want to get a little insight into what the game commission was thinking and the discussion about this you can read the minutes of the meeting. It might answer a few questions and bring up some new ones. One of the things that I learned is that 7000 of the 47000 people who drew deer permits did not purchase a license. Up front fees might help those licenses get into the hands of people who really want to hunt.
Click the link and scroll to agenda item 16.
http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/commission/minutes/documents/minutes12-4Deming.pd
Click the link and scroll to agenda item 16.
http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/commission/minutes/documents/minutes12-4Deming.pd
NMPaul
Moderator
- Messages
- 8,105
I dont have a problem with paying for tags up front.
By the way I am one of those guys that put my wife, kids, and friends in for tags.
I think that its important that we introduce as many people to hunting as we can. Not only that, but, I get to go hunting with them whether I draw a tag or not.
More people involved in hunting, the better chance our sport has of surviving.
By the way I am one of those guys that put my wife, kids, and friends in for tags.
I think that its important that we introduce as many people to hunting as we can. Not only that, but, I get to go hunting with them whether I draw a tag or not.
More people involved in hunting, the better chance our sport has of surviving.
Paul,
I don't think you are the guy he was referring to. I would bet it's the guy who puts in EVERY member of his extended family in order to get his own butt out there in the field hunting every thing he can. I don't think anyone has a problem with someone who gets his kids out there. You know there were people who were using the $9 app fee to better their own odds of a tag.
I don't think the paper idea is ever going to fly as the internet age is here to stay.... at least until domething better comes around anyway! The upfront fees will force people to budget their money a little better but really, what's the difference if you think about it? I know our finances were watched CLOSELY around June as I knew the draw was going to be coming up and I neeeded the money to be in the account! I really believe that these upfront fees are going to make the odds better this year as some were not prepared and others will not be putting in everybody they can get but in the end the latter will be cut out.
I don't think you are the guy he was referring to. I would bet it's the guy who puts in EVERY member of his extended family in order to get his own butt out there in the field hunting every thing he can. I don't think anyone has a problem with someone who gets his kids out there. You know there were people who were using the $9 app fee to better their own odds of a tag.
I don't think the paper idea is ever going to fly as the internet age is here to stay.... at least until domething better comes around anyway! The upfront fees will force people to budget their money a little better but really, what's the difference if you think about it? I know our finances were watched CLOSELY around June as I knew the draw was going to be coming up and I neeeded the money to be in the account! I really believe that these upfront fees are going to make the odds better this year as some were not prepared and others will not be putting in everybody they can get but in the end the latter will be cut out.
hunting1
Active Member
- Messages
- 869
NMPaul if your family is actually hunting and not just drawig so 10-people with guns can all try and shoot with 1-tag is what I was reffering to. I can not waite until my kids are old enough. I did not mean it the way you took it and feel for you and others having to dish out up front. It will be a challenge to intriduce young people to the sport. I was reffering to party hunting. Good luck to you and your family.
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