UT Points Transferable?
- Thread starter grizzly
- Start date
W
WAsharpstick
Guest
It will take 30+ years of building points before there is any real advantage.
grizzly
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,606
Its going to take me at least 30 years to draw Henry's Deer or San Juan Elk. While I only can apply for 1 deer and 1 sheep every year; non-residents can apply for deer, elk, antelope, bison, goat, 2 species of sheep, and moose.
That is a major injustice to residents.
Grizzly
That is a major injustice to residents.
Grizzly
Stubaby
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,614
Points are transferable, but it does not realy help. Plus, you can only put in for one LE and one once-in-a-lifetime species at a time no matter if you are a resident or not....unless this year is different than last year. I moved to Montana from UT and my points carried over. Plus, how many people would or could move to UT just to hunt there???
If it is true that you can put in for all those hunts as a non-res, then I think it's BS, however...this year I will put in for them all if I can : ).
If it is true that you can put in for all those hunts as a non-res, then I think it's BS, however...this year I will put in for them all if I can : ).
AndymanSavage
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,724
>Points are transferable, but it does
>not realy help. Plus,
>you can only put in
>for one LE and one
>once-in-a-lifetime species at a time
>no matter if you are
>a resident or not....unless this
>year is different than last
>year. I moved to
>Montana from UT and my
>points carried over. Plus,
>how many people would or
>could move to UT just
>to hunt there???
>
>
>If it is true that you
>can put in for all
>those hunts as a non-res,
>then I think it's BS,
>however...this year I will put
>in for them all if
>I can : ).
yes, it is different this year and non residents can apply for all those bonus points.
-----------------------------------------------
http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/
>not realy help. Plus,
>you can only put in
>for one LE and one
>once-in-a-lifetime species at a time
>no matter if you are
>a resident or not....unless this
>year is different than last
>year. I moved to
>Montana from UT and my
>points carried over. Plus,
>how many people would or
>could move to UT just
>to hunt there???
>
>
>If it is true that you
>can put in for all
>those hunts as a non-res,
>then I think it's BS,
>however...this year I will put
>in for them all if
>I can : ).
yes, it is different this year and non residents can apply for all those bonus points.
-----------------------------------------------
http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/
>Its going to take me at
>least 30 years to draw
>Henry's Deer or San Juan
>Elk. While I only
>can apply for 1 deer
>and 1 sheep every year;
>non-residents can apply for deer,
>elk, antelope, bison, goat, 2
>species of sheep, and moose.
>
>That is a major injustice to
>residents.
No grizz this is a major injustice to non-residents! I have 4 non-res deer pts and wish they would have left it the the way it was. The only reason the DOW changed the rule is because they were going to lose a lot of non-res applicants due to the $75 ($65-lic @ $10-point)cost for a point for one species. They are hopeing that most people will just say its not that expensive compared to some other states if I get points for all the species availible. But with the point creep already going on
if you stared getting Elk points this year it may be 30 years
before you could draw a good tag. And now the deer random odds are for sure going to get even worse.
I will still put in for my deer points until I draw because I am ahead of the crowd, but then that will be it for me in Utah.
Be carefull for what you wish for!!
>least 30 years to draw
>Henry's Deer or San Juan
>Elk. While I only
>can apply for 1 deer
>and 1 sheep every year;
>non-residents can apply for deer,
>elk, antelope, bison, goat, 2
>species of sheep, and moose.
>
>That is a major injustice to
>residents.
No grizz this is a major injustice to non-residents! I have 4 non-res deer pts and wish they would have left it the the way it was. The only reason the DOW changed the rule is because they were going to lose a lot of non-res applicants due to the $75 ($65-lic @ $10-point)cost for a point for one species. They are hopeing that most people will just say its not that expensive compared to some other states if I get points for all the species availible. But with the point creep already going on
if you stared getting Elk points this year it may be 30 years
before you could draw a good tag. And now the deer random odds are for sure going to get even worse.
I will still put in for my deer points until I draw because I am ahead of the crowd, but then that will be it for me in Utah.
Be carefull for what you wish for!!
A
apollosmith
Guest
This will make things worse for residents and non-residents by introducing more points into the system - primarily by those non-residents that can afford multiple points every year.
The bigger problem is that it is going to be really hard for DWR to backstep on this plan. Can you imagine the outrage if next year they told all those non-residents that the points they bought for 6 of the 8 species were now pretty much worthless and that they now only get to choose two again??? Of course then the only way to make it fair is for residents to apply for all species and that doesn't make things any better.
The bigger problem is that it is going to be really hard for DWR to backstep on this plan. Can you imagine the outrage if next year they told all those non-residents that the points they bought for 6 of the 8 species were now pretty much worthless and that they now only get to choose two again??? Of course then the only way to make it fair is for residents to apply for all species and that doesn't make things any better.
ColoradoOak
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,920
>Can someone please show me where
>a non resident can apply
>for a bonus point for
>all species? Is it on
>the DWR website somewhere?
>
>
>Later, Brandon
Page 19 in the new proclamation:
"If you're a non-resident, you may apply for permits or bonus points for all limited-entry and once-in-a-lifetime species."
Then it goes on to say, "Please remember that you may not draw more than one limited-entry ornce-in-a-lifetime permit each year"
>a non resident can apply
>for a bonus point for
>all species? Is it on
>the DWR website somewhere?
>
>
>Later, Brandon
Page 19 in the new proclamation:
"If you're a non-resident, you may apply for permits or bonus points for all limited-entry and once-in-a-lifetime species."
Then it goes on to say, "Please remember that you may not draw more than one limited-entry ornce-in-a-lifetime permit each year"
ColoradoOak
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,920
The way that reads, it sounds like a non-resident could actually apply for permits for all species, as long as they didn't draw more than one. I don't think that's what they intend, but that's the way it is written.
W
WAsharpstick
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-09 AT 10:33AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-09 AT 10:32?AM (MST)
As I understand it if you are drawn for any one of the species your apps are removed from the other draws for that year. You get points but have no chance of drawing.
There are going to be 10,000 non resident apps for 1 Henry's deer tag............LOL
So your telling me there's a chance?
As I understand it if you are drawn for any one of the species your apps are removed from the other draws for that year. You get points but have no chance of drawing.
There are going to be 10,000 non resident apps for 1 Henry's deer tag............LOL
So your telling me there's a chance?
Utah is simply trying to give the Non-resident the impression that they are getting "more" for their hunting license dollar. Rather than focusing on the real issue which is the ridiculous number of deer tags given to the various organizations for sale to the highest bidder versus the paltry number of LE tags available in the general draw they are going to throw a bonus elk point at us to see if we will play their silly game. Unless you are 20 years old it is a sucker's bet. Spend your money in CO, Wy or Nv (or invest in Utah lottery tag draws) - you may actually get to hunt some day.
txhunter58
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 8,591
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-09 AT 10:56AM (MST)[p]>
>As I understand it if you
>are drawn for any one
>of the species your apps
>are removed from the other
>draws for that year.
>You get points but have
>no chance of drawing.
So, if you draw a deer tag before the elk drawing, that removes you from the elk drawing and you would not even have a shot at an elk tag? Does anyone know if that is true? If so, it might make me just put in for a bonus point for deer until I draw an elk tag because I wouldn't want a drawing held before the elk drawing to remove me from a chance at an elk tag.
I guess I figured that they drawings would be held and if you happen to draw more than one, you would have to choose. No?
And if it is true, then does anyone know the order of the drawing? Is one held before the other, or are they run at the same time?
And as stated Grizz, I be careful what you ask for. I will trade places with you any day. My odds of drawing an elk tag as a nonresident just went down quite a bit with the new system!
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
>As I understand it if you
>are drawn for any one
>of the species your apps
>are removed from the other
>draws for that year.
>You get points but have
>no chance of drawing.
So, if you draw a deer tag before the elk drawing, that removes you from the elk drawing and you would not even have a shot at an elk tag? Does anyone know if that is true? If so, it might make me just put in for a bonus point for deer until I draw an elk tag because I wouldn't want a drawing held before the elk drawing to remove me from a chance at an elk tag.
I guess I figured that they drawings would be held and if you happen to draw more than one, you would have to choose. No?
And if it is true, then does anyone know the order of the drawing? Is one held before the other, or are they run at the same time?
And as stated Grizz, I be careful what you ask for. I will trade places with you any day. My odds of drawing an elk tag as a nonresident just went down quite a bit with the new system!
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
grizzly
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,606
txhunter58, I'm not at all wishing residents could apply for all species, that would not help anybody's odds. It would just cost more money. I don't like the unlevel playing field given to non-residents.
I have also lamented in the past about the higher draw odds for non-residents, on some hunts, than for residents. On the San Juan Fall Bear, with 7 points, I would have a better chance as a non-resident. I wish I could just pay the higher tag fee and go hunting, instead of waiting 4 more years to draw the tag.
Maybe Utah should go to an Idaho-like system, where there are no "non-resident only" tags, just a cap on the amount of non-resident tags allowed. Then we would all go in equally until the quota was met.
UDWR is too politically driven, they need to save our money and go to a science-based initiative.
Grizzly
I have also lamented in the past about the higher draw odds for non-residents, on some hunts, than for residents. On the San Juan Fall Bear, with 7 points, I would have a better chance as a non-resident. I wish I could just pay the higher tag fee and go hunting, instead of waiting 4 more years to draw the tag.
Maybe Utah should go to an Idaho-like system, where there are no "non-resident only" tags, just a cap on the amount of non-resident tags allowed. Then we would all go in equally until the quota was met.
UDWR is too politically driven, they need to save our money and go to a science-based initiative.
Grizzly
llamapacker
Moderator
- Messages
- 1,068
This is a huge advantage for non-redients that eventually move to the state. It will still take a long time (statistically) to get drawn for any of these tags, but to be accumulating points for the other species at the same time should help keep non-residents in the game. Not having to start over with zero points for species number two (once you draw your first choice) makes it worth still applying. And you do keep all your points when you move to the state. Not that many will move specifically for hunting reasons, but those hunters that move into the state for whatever reason, and accumulated points ahead of time will have a greqt advantaqge over long time residents for their second tag.
Overall, I think this was just s money grab by the state. But it does have consequences for both residnets and non-residents down the road.
Bill
Overall, I think this was just s money grab by the state. But it does have consequences for both residnets and non-residents down the road.
Bill
nochawk
Moderator
- Messages
- 2,977
TXhunter58
Pg 16 of the proc..
D
rawing process
Utah Admin. Code R657-5-27
Big game permits are drawn in the following order:
First?buck deer (premium limited-? entry, limited-entry, CWMU and management buck deer)
Second?bull elk (premium limited-? entry, limited-entry and CWMU)
Third?buck pronghorn (limited-? entry and CWMU)
Fourth?once-in-a-lifetime?
Fifth?youth general buck deer?
Sixth?general buck deer and ? general buck/bull combination
Last?youth any bull elk?
Because of the order in which permits are drawn, you won't be included in the drawing for a once-in-a-lifetime permit if you draw any of the following permits:
Buck deer (limited-entry, premium ? limited-entry, CWMU or management buck deer)
Bull elk (limited-entry, premium ? limited-entry or CWMU)
Buck pronghorn (limited-entry
? or CWMU)
Pg 16 of the proc..
D
rawing process
Utah Admin. Code R657-5-27
Big game permits are drawn in the following order:
First?buck deer (premium limited-? entry, limited-entry, CWMU and management buck deer)
Second?bull elk (premium limited-? entry, limited-entry and CWMU)
Third?buck pronghorn (limited-? entry and CWMU)
Fourth?once-in-a-lifetime?
Fifth?youth general buck deer?
Sixth?general buck deer and ? general buck/bull combination
Last?youth any bull elk?
Because of the order in which permits are drawn, you won't be included in the drawing for a once-in-a-lifetime permit if you draw any of the following permits:
Buck deer (limited-entry, premium ? limited-entry, CWMU or management buck deer)
Bull elk (limited-entry, premium ? limited-entry or CWMU)
Buck pronghorn (limited-entry
? or CWMU)
Stubaby
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,614
I live out of state(for now) and that really does not make sense if you think about it. That allows non-res. to build up too many points for too many species. I will do it because I can, plus if I'm gonna buy the 65 dollar (whatever it's called) just to put in, then I might as well get some points.....but its not right. You might as well take away the waiting period, too. If I can build deer and elk points at the same time, then why have a waiting period?
Us guys who have points will keep building them even if it's only one at a time. For two reasons:
1. To keep building more
2. To stay active in the point system and not loose them due to infrequent "put-ins".
Don't tell me that if you live out of state and you have 7 points you are going to stop just because it costs 65 or so bucks just for one point in one species. If people were to stop doing that, then why do so many guys drive thier diesel trucks from all over just to be present at the King's show?
Us guys who have points will keep building them even if it's only one at a time. For two reasons:
1. To keep building more
2. To stay active in the point system and not loose them due to infrequent "put-ins".
Don't tell me that if you live out of state and you have 7 points you are going to stop just because it costs 65 or so bucks just for one point in one species. If people were to stop doing that, then why do so many guys drive thier diesel trucks from all over just to be present at the King's show?
K
ktc
Guest
I sure hope this does not happen to residents also. Just another $100 to stay on a level playing field.
Utah has got to be the most complicated state. Bucks and Bulls, General Season, Antlerless, preference points, bonus points, point averaging, proposed A tags and B tags, management hunts, spike hunts, use your points and get them back if you shoot the right animal, draw and give the tag back plus a point. What a freakin mess.
Utah has got to be the most complicated state. Bucks and Bulls, General Season, Antlerless, preference points, bonus points, point averaging, proposed A tags and B tags, management hunts, spike hunts, use your points and get them back if you shoot the right animal, draw and give the tag back plus a point. What a freakin mess.
K
ktc
Guest
...good hell.
Why not have a bonus points system. Have deer tags, elk tags etc. If you draw you go if not you stay home. No refunds or exchanges. You draw an elk tag use your points. Pick an available tag/specie/season/sex/unit you want to draw all in one proclamation. Have points, units, and tags. End of story. Utah should abide by the Reduction in Paperwork Act. Seems I have more different types of points in Utard than all other states combined?
Okay, I am done b!tching and will now have my attorney fill out my application.;-)
Why not have a bonus points system. Have deer tags, elk tags etc. If you draw you go if not you stay home. No refunds or exchanges. You draw an elk tag use your points. Pick an available tag/specie/season/sex/unit you want to draw all in one proclamation. Have points, units, and tags. End of story. Utah should abide by the Reduction in Paperwork Act. Seems I have more different types of points in Utard than all other states combined?
Okay, I am done b!tching and will now have my attorney fill out my application.;-)
Roy
Moderator
- Messages
- 7,446
>
>Okay, I am done b!tching and
>will now have my attorney
>fill out my application.;-)
Amen KTC - just the way I feel. Remember as a non-res before you can apply for any points or tags, you must first purchase the Utah Non-res hunting license too. $65 may not be a lot, but it is more than I can spend in Texas this year probably and definitely before the draw! May just do it anyway. I have 7 points and I am not going to draw any good unit fast and it is unlikely that I will be a UT resident in the next few years so I better start saving!
UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
>Okay, I am done b!tching and
>will now have my attorney
>fill out my application.;-)
Amen KTC - just the way I feel. Remember as a non-res before you can apply for any points or tags, you must first purchase the Utah Non-res hunting license too. $65 may not be a lot, but it is more than I can spend in Texas this year probably and definitely before the draw! May just do it anyway. I have 7 points and I am not going to draw any good unit fast and it is unlikely that I will be a UT resident in the next few years so I better start saving!
UTROY
Proverbs 21:19 (why I hunt!)
H
huntin100
Guest
Could it mean that Utah is trying to be reasonable to Non res?
AZ 150 dollar license, plus fees 180 dollars.
ID 150 dollar license plus app fees 180 dollars, projected to increase 20%.
NV 150 dollars license plus app fees 230 dollars.
WY 50 dollars point for elk, 40 deer, 30 antelope, 75 moose, 100 sheep.
It is hard to hunt out of state for many. The increase costs are hard to handle, especially with the problems with the current economy.
AZ 150 dollar license, plus fees 180 dollars.
ID 150 dollar license plus app fees 180 dollars, projected to increase 20%.
NV 150 dollars license plus app fees 230 dollars.
WY 50 dollars point for elk, 40 deer, 30 antelope, 75 moose, 100 sheep.
It is hard to hunt out of state for many. The increase costs are hard to handle, especially with the problems with the current economy.
You can't compare Utah to Nevada or Wyoming in Non-Res opportunity. Wyoming has thousands of limited entry tags as does Nevada. Utah has what 80 LE deer tags - 1 or 2 Henrys tags? I will agree Arizona is similar. This change Utah is proposing isn't about opportunity it is about convincing Non-Res's to mail in their checks for a chance to hunt once in a 20-30 year period. Other states can and will charge more - you get to hunt every 3 - 5 years - Utah is selling blue sky. The math is pretty simple 5 years X $165 or 30 years X $65. And it isn't about the money it is about basic fairness. And yes I know if I don't like it I should take my marbles and go home.
