Elkslayer2015
Active Member
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DO you think utah needs to restructure there limited entry hunts around or leave it alone.
what's your thoughts
- Thread starter Elkslayer2015
- Start date
I am sure most people see the issues with the current system.
But its not as easy as seeing the problems. Fixing them is a HUGE task.
You have a system, and people have been in the system, playing by the rules, how do you change it in a way that fixes the problems, and is fair to those guys who are counting on the system to pay off for them one day.
In the mean time, more people put in, more points are building for everyone.
Point creep raises the max points.
The lucky draw tags with few or no points, the majority wait and wait and wait.
Its like social security. Seems like it needs fixing. How to meet the obligations the government made, while implementing a different system, that may or may not work, and trying to not burden the next generation. Its not easy.
Its easy to let the system run itself until its breaks. At the point of failure, the system has to be revamped. It will be unfair to many. It will upset many.
But all will recognize the need to revamp things.
Right now, most would not be willing to give up on their years and years of applications in the current system, in order to change it. Its not totally broke yet.
I believe people will see point creep cause limited entry hunts to become more like once in a lifetime hunts before there is enough outcry to change things.
I think that these new hunts they are making, on general season units, are bandaids to remove limited entry points from the system.
When you are using limited entry points to receive a tag that you can get through the general season draw, you have become pretty desperate in my mind.
But its not as easy as seeing the problems. Fixing them is a HUGE task.
You have a system, and people have been in the system, playing by the rules, how do you change it in a way that fixes the problems, and is fair to those guys who are counting on the system to pay off for them one day.
In the mean time, more people put in, more points are building for everyone.
Point creep raises the max points.
The lucky draw tags with few or no points, the majority wait and wait and wait.
Its like social security. Seems like it needs fixing. How to meet the obligations the government made, while implementing a different system, that may or may not work, and trying to not burden the next generation. Its not easy.
Its easy to let the system run itself until its breaks. At the point of failure, the system has to be revamped. It will be unfair to many. It will upset many.
But all will recognize the need to revamp things.
Right now, most would not be willing to give up on their years and years of applications in the current system, in order to change it. Its not totally broke yet.
I believe people will see point creep cause limited entry hunts to become more like once in a lifetime hunts before there is enough outcry to change things.
I think that these new hunts they are making, on general season units, are bandaids to remove limited entry points from the system.
When you are using limited entry points to receive a tag that you can get through the general season draw, you have become pretty desperate in my mind.
goofyelk
Very Active Member
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Restructure it to What?
Bottom line is, high demand for a limited resource.
Lots of guys with lots of points waiting their turn.
Meanwhile 50% of the permits are random draw,
everyone get a shot at drawing those.....
I say LEAVE IT ALONE, Utah's LE draw is pretty fair!...JMHO.
Bottom line is, high demand for a limited resource.
Lots of guys with lots of points waiting their turn.
Meanwhile 50% of the permits are random draw,
everyone get a shot at drawing those.....
I say LEAVE IT ALONE, Utah's LE draw is pretty fair!...JMHO.
Zeke
Long Time Member
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-16 AT 05:08PM (MST)[p]>
>Restructure it to What?
>
>Bottom line is, high demand for
>a limited resource.
>
>Lots of guys with lots of
>points waiting their turn.
>Meanwhile 50% of the permits are
>random draw,
>everyone get a shot at drawing
>those.....
>
>I say LEAVE IT ALONE, Utah's
>LE draw is pretty fair!...JMHO.
>
>
Bingo!
Goofy's thoughts are the only ones that make sense!
The other posts are just too vague to even address.
The drawing of a great tag isn't easy regardless of the system. Re-read that sentence until you understand it.
Currently, everyone has a chance and at the same time everyone can build points! Let's say the system goes totally random, so what. Your odds would then be 1 in 100 instead of 1 in 200. So what? You're going to have to win the lottery either way.
So what's so "broken" about the current system? ....other than YOU haven't drawn YOUR tag yet.
Zeke
>Restructure it to What?
>
>Bottom line is, high demand for
>a limited resource.
>
>Lots of guys with lots of
>points waiting their turn.
>Meanwhile 50% of the permits are
>random draw,
>everyone get a shot at drawing
>those.....
>
>I say LEAVE IT ALONE, Utah's
>LE draw is pretty fair!...JMHO.
>
>
Bingo!
Goofy's thoughts are the only ones that make sense!
The other posts are just too vague to even address.
The drawing of a great tag isn't easy regardless of the system. Re-read that sentence until you understand it.
Currently, everyone has a chance and at the same time everyone can build points! Let's say the system goes totally random, so what. Your odds would then be 1 in 100 instead of 1 in 200. So what? You're going to have to win the lottery either way.
So what's so "broken" about the current system? ....other than YOU haven't drawn YOUR tag yet.
Zeke
Elkslayer2015
Active Member
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Yeah i here you guys ive been hearing from a lot of people saying the archery hunt needs moved threw sept and muzzy needs to be second and then rifle,i keep hearing this and its gotten worse since they passed the muzzy with scopes.I don't care sorry i should of been more clear i apologize..
Stonefly
Very Active Member
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-16 AT 09:17PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-10-16 AT 09:15?PM (MST)
??elkslayer2015??? I wonder if you may have had another name...one with more than 8 posts??
someone ask how to change the rules...that's easy just let RMEF make a proposal and watch the rules change..but really I agree with Goofy let it alone, leave it be. I don't think it will ever change.... unless Fsfw wants it to, and then it wont matter about screwing sportsmen, they corner that market. go ahead birdy and jackass73 ready aim fire...
Edit: just had a thought right inline with something Fsfw would do. how about the Fdwr save 25% of the tags for the highest bidders. and Fsfw could oversee the point system for a small portion of what is collected.. Im sure we could trust them....right
??elkslayer2015??? I wonder if you may have had another name...one with more than 8 posts??
someone ask how to change the rules...that's easy just let RMEF make a proposal and watch the rules change..but really I agree with Goofy let it alone, leave it be. I don't think it will ever change.... unless Fsfw wants it to, and then it wont matter about screwing sportsmen, they corner that market. go ahead birdy and jackass73 ready aim fire...
Edit: just had a thought right inline with something Fsfw would do. how about the Fdwr save 25% of the tags for the highest bidders. and Fsfw could oversee the point system for a small portion of what is collected.. Im sure we could trust them....right
goofyelk
Very Active Member
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slayer2015,
If your OP question was aimed at restructuring LE hunt dates,
I'd say this,
Deer and Antelope seasons are just fine in Utah....
LE elk hunt dates are debatable.
One of the main problems is survey's on this issue have
continually shown Utah's sportsmen what to hunt elk during
the rut when they draw a limited entry any weapon permit.
I don't see changing the early LE rifle elk dates until Utah
hunters change their mind set.....
If your OP question was aimed at restructuring LE hunt dates,
I'd say this,
Deer and Antelope seasons are just fine in Utah....
LE elk hunt dates are debatable.
One of the main problems is survey's on this issue have
continually shown Utah's sportsmen what to hunt elk during
the rut when they draw a limited entry any weapon permit.
I don't see changing the early LE rifle elk dates until Utah
hunters change their mind set.....
Elkslayer2015
Active Member
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-16 AT 08:15AM (MST)[p]Nope buddy I'm new here I've been getting on for years just never had account.
I don't know if it was ever brought up,The question I needed to be more clear like I said I apologize for that and I understand what you guys are saying I think they need to leave it alone.
I don't know if it was ever brought up,The question I needed to be more clear like I said I apologize for that and I understand what you guys are saying I think they need to leave it alone.
What would you think of setting up a system that would rotate the LE archery, LE muzz and LE any weapon hunts on a 3 year rotation ? In other words-- each of the hunt types would have their turn to go first then second then third. This way every hunt type would get their turn to hunt during the rut. Good idea, bad idea?
Muley_73
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Stonefly,
Hmmm I personally think Utah has a very good draw system. I'd like to see some more units designated as archery only maybe one in each of the old regions. I think this would create a qualty hunt while allowing a ton of opportunity. Could really unplug the LE system. But that's just my opinion.
Again another example of just complaining and throwing rocks instead of ideas to improve our wildlife. I'm totally ok being considered a jackasss if it's individuals like yourself handing out the labels.
Hmmm I personally think Utah has a very good draw system. I'd like to see some more units designated as archery only maybe one in each of the old regions. I think this would create a qualty hunt while allowing a ton of opportunity. Could really unplug the LE system. But that's just my opinion.
Again another example of just complaining and throwing rocks instead of ideas to improve our wildlife. I'm totally ok being considered a jackasss if it's individuals like yourself handing out the labels.
Only trying to get some ideas/opinions that might help move the highest bonus point holders through the system and maybe at the same time give the 3 weapon type holders a crack at the rut. I do see that if the archery LE hunts had a crack during the rut that the success rate would possibly allow for more permits during that year for archery. Not sure about the muzzleloaders with now having magnified scopes and weapons that could shoot out 300 yards+.
What's your thoughts ?
What's your thoughts ?
Elkslayer2015
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I'm with you there OK let's do this how about we allow the archery hunters to have there hunt end on Friday the 3 week of September always then have the rifle hunters have their week then let the muzzleloaders have their week or nine days that way were all in the rut
The archery hunters would have their pre-rut the rifle hunters would have the rut and the muzzleloaders will still be in the rut
Let's face it last year was not the year to draw an archery tag it ended on 11 September and the only ones that benefit out of it was rifle and muzzleloader.
Just my thought
The archery hunters would have their pre-rut the rifle hunters would have the rut and the muzzleloaders will still be in the rut
Let's face it last year was not the year to draw an archery tag it ended on 11 September and the only ones that benefit out of it was rifle and muzzleloader.
Just my thought
Elkslayer2015
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But that's the way it is this year already
Last year it ended on the 11 it was the second weekend of September no rut at all maybe a little pre-rut but not much
Just keep it the way it is this year and run with it just my opinion
Last year it ended on the 11 it was the second weekend of September no rut at all maybe a little pre-rut but not much
Just keep it the way it is this year and run with it just my opinion
Robiland
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OK, for me, the draw system is OK. Not great, but not sure what is better. But as others have said, 50% go to hgihest points, 50% go to random.
AS far as dates go, I think the deer hunt is fine. BUT WE ALL know the elk dates suck.
I like what Wyoming does. Archery is all september, 1-30. If you draw a rifle tag, pay extra and hunt 9/15-9/30 and then go to you rifle hunt. Some dates are longer and shorter than others, but most rifle hunts are in October for 3 weeks.
I also like Nevada. All rifle hunts are seasons 1-4, but most of them are Nov and Dec. But they also have some pretty remote areas.
The fact is that Utah has their dates set according to the rifle deer hunt, 3rd saturday of Oct. That needs to change. I dont care if the hunt starts on Saturday or Tuesday, Im going to hunt when ever I can. It wont be favorable for everyone, but oh well.
AS far as dates go, I think the deer hunt is fine. BUT WE ALL know the elk dates suck.
I like what Wyoming does. Archery is all september, 1-30. If you draw a rifle tag, pay extra and hunt 9/15-9/30 and then go to you rifle hunt. Some dates are longer and shorter than others, but most rifle hunts are in October for 3 weeks.
I also like Nevada. All rifle hunts are seasons 1-4, but most of them are Nov and Dec. But they also have some pretty remote areas.
The fact is that Utah has their dates set according to the rifle deer hunt, 3rd saturday of Oct. That needs to change. I dont care if the hunt starts on Saturday or Tuesday, Im going to hunt when ever I can. It wont be favorable for everyone, but oh well.
I think they should cap points-- say at 25 max. No way should we give preference for units which take more than a lifetime to draw. What will happen when we get to 50+ points? I say cap them at 25, which makes people put in their time and still allows those coming later to catch up.
And change the preference point system for general deer to not award 2nd-5th choices based on points and allowing the applicant to keep their points for those choices.
I'd also be in favor of making OIL points not be species specific. This would allow people to change if they are unable to hunt the species they applied for 20 years ago.
And change the preference point system for general deer to not award 2nd-5th choices based on points and allowing the applicant to keep their points for those choices.
I'd also be in favor of making OIL points not be species specific. This would allow people to change if they are unable to hunt the species they applied for 20 years ago.
Gator
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all I know is they need to Get me a Elk tag for Monroe and a deer tag for the Henry's. Things would be as fine as frog hair.
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Stonefly
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73 not tossing rocks, believe me if I were to toss rocks you would feel it. as for your "talking point" of no suggestions for improvement , talk to 2lumpy and ask him if I have passed along proposals, not just my ideas alone but combined with those of range, and wildlife biologists from the state., UTAH state, where I live and do most of my hunting, where I have donated literally hundreds and hundreds of hours, along with other members of my family. for Wildlife and Sportsmen, with NO ties with Fsfw, thre goes you thoughts on most "haters" being from out of state. I would be ashamed of myself or ANY member of my family that would associate with any IMOP "legalized Thieves " Im tired of your chest thumping and defending of the crooks after the enablers that were bought and paid for GAVE them the tags and contract. You should go back to being Silent like most Fsfw guys were before they KNEW the fix was in.
Apologies to the OP, Just tired of reading all the defense responses coming from about 3 guys out of all the MM folks out here. as for rotating the units, it would work. I have proposed a similar idea about the general Deer Units, You would need to calculate harvest success, then adjust for an increase or decrease by the amount of hunting hours and access available, by the change in hunt dates, and game movements,or migration to set tag numbers. with lower success you could move a few more hunters through and maintain the resource.
Apologies to the OP, Just tired of reading all the defense responses coming from about 3 guys out of all the MM folks out here. as for rotating the units, it would work. I have proposed a similar idea about the general Deer Units, You would need to calculate harvest success, then adjust for an increase or decrease by the amount of hunting hours and access available, by the change in hunt dates, and game movements,or migration to set tag numbers. with lower success you could move a few more hunters through and maintain the resource.
tenaciousC
Member
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These are usually my favorite topics so I guess I'll throw in my two cents.
First I don't think there is a perfect draw system, and no matter what happens with season dates there will always be a group of people that are unhappy.
I feel like point creep is the biggest issue with the draw system in Utah as well as every other state. There is no way to completely stop point creep. It would be interesting if it could be slowed down though. I wouldn't mind seeing the percentages on the tag distribution adjusted a bit. Say a 70/30% split or an 80/20. This wouldn't solve the problem all together but it might help. And yes, I do feel like someone who has 20 points should get a tag over someone with 0-1 point. But those 0-1 point guys would still have a chance at 20-30% of the tags!
As for season dates I feel like the deer and antelope ar e fair. I would like to see the elk dates changed up though. Those archery hunts are tough... I've been there. Plus I don't care to see the early rifle guys killing the majority of the upper end bulls every year. I feel like this and too many tags issued are the two reasons why quality has dipped a bit as of recently. I've never put any thought into the rotating seasons but I like the thought of it.
I also wish they would let me change my OIL species. I've learned 16 points isn't where I want to be in the moose game. That's all I've got, not that it matters lol!
First I don't think there is a perfect draw system, and no matter what happens with season dates there will always be a group of people that are unhappy.
I feel like point creep is the biggest issue with the draw system in Utah as well as every other state. There is no way to completely stop point creep. It would be interesting if it could be slowed down though. I wouldn't mind seeing the percentages on the tag distribution adjusted a bit. Say a 70/30% split or an 80/20. This wouldn't solve the problem all together but it might help. And yes, I do feel like someone who has 20 points should get a tag over someone with 0-1 point. But those 0-1 point guys would still have a chance at 20-30% of the tags!
As for season dates I feel like the deer and antelope ar e fair. I would like to see the elk dates changed up though. Those archery hunts are tough... I've been there. Plus I don't care to see the early rifle guys killing the majority of the upper end bulls every year. I feel like this and too many tags issued are the two reasons why quality has dipped a bit as of recently. I've never put any thought into the rotating seasons but I like the thought of it.
I also wish they would let me change my OIL species. I've learned 16 points isn't where I want to be in the moose game. That's all I've got, not that it matters lol!
Muley_73
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-11-16 AT 08:45PM (MST)[p]Stone,
I didn't say all I said most. So you would be one of the locals. I clearly stated that. Doesn't make you any less hateful. No chest thumping by me, I'm just stating why I chose to support. Just because I disagree with some on this sight doesn't mean I should stay silent. I'm not that thin skinned.
This post was about the draw system. I gave some input. Nothin to do with SFW and you want to drag it into that. You guys are some consumed with hate you can't look at anything else. I honestly can't imagine being on edge like that continually.
I didn't say all I said most. So you would be one of the locals. I clearly stated that. Doesn't make you any less hateful. No chest thumping by me, I'm just stating why I chose to support. Just because I disagree with some on this sight doesn't mean I should stay silent. I'm not that thin skinned.
This post was about the draw system. I gave some input. Nothin to do with SFW and you want to drag it into that. You guys are some consumed with hate you can't look at anything else. I honestly can't imagine being on edge like that continually.
Muley_73
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I remember ar301 well. I use to apply. I disagreed with the SFW when they didn't support it. The difference is I don't have to agree 100% of the time to support the overall good I feel they have done. I don't love everything thst some politicians do. Does that mean I hate America? I disagree with some religious views, does that make me atheist? I take the good and fight for what I agree with and think is positive for the future of your wildlife. I don't let thing I disagree consume me and stop me from moving forward.
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