Winchester or Remington?

[SaddleSore]

I am in the process of replacing my 300 Win Mag. My previous gun was the Winchester Model 70 in a composite/stainless, and I was planning on replacing it with the same make and model.

However, my gunsmith was saying that in his opinion the Winchester was a good gun, but the Remington's were a better factory gun.

I am fairly tall and I have favored the Winchester in the past because of the slightly longer length of pull which seems to fit a little better. I have also owned the Remington Model 700's in other calibers, and like them as well.

I don't mean to turn this into a Ford vs. Chevy post. I just wanted to gather some opinions to see if I should be taking a harder look at the Remington.

 

[RLH]

depends a bunch on what type of winchester you're talking about. controlled round feed, "Pre-64" type, or the push feed type. in my opinion, the controlled round feed, with the big mauser type extractor is superior to the remington. plus i really like the 3 position bolt safety on winchesters. remington safeties are just a trigger block. (as are rugers and savages, etc.) the hammer is still live. a winchester safety actually pulls the hammer back and locks it where it can't go off. it also has another position that allows you to open the bolt, with the safety on. remington safeties are either in the fire or safe position and the bolt can't be opened when the safety is on. i've been around several remingtons over the years the went off when the the safety was clicked off. it takes just one little grain of dirt in the trigger to allow this to happen. a real dangerous situation and they were well cared for rifles that did it. i've seen several remingtons leave a spent case in the chamber because the small extractor slid over the rim. they may have been poor handloads or overloads, but i've never seen a winchester with the big extractor do that. one time a guy wounded an elk across a canyon that got away because he couldn't shoot again. as far as accuracy and action dependabilty (feeding the shells and such) there isn't much if any difference in them. winchester triggers are lot easier to adjust for creep and pull also. you can adjust remington trigger pull by cutting a spring, but i don't know of a way to adjust the creep without taking it to a good gunsmith. i'm real prejudiced on the differences in the 2 actions, but my prejudice comes from years of real experience. i have remingtons and shoot the hell out of em. but when i'm after big game, there's a model 70 in my scabbard.

 

[Bambistew]

RLH some good info there, but since I know you're fond of your M70's I'll give my opinion of the 700's. I hope you aren't comparing you pre '64s to the new 700's! Thats like comparing a Rolls Royce to a Toyota...

Unless you are looking at buying an older remington, pre 1982 you can open the bolt with the safety on, if you have a pre '82 you can send it to Remington and they will fix the safty for free.

Winchesters can go off as well if there is any pressure what so ever on the trigger when you flip the safty off... All though remington has had some problems with this in the past I believe all the accidents were due to the pre '82 safetys

The extractor on the M70 is in a totaly differnt animal than the 700. M70 extractors are copied from the mauser action, which were designed to work in battle under virtully any condition... much like elk hunting But M70 extractors can snap off since they are forged, and finished, instead of machined, making the steel "brittle" Luckily a replacement that has more "spring" in it can be found and replaced for about $90 if you really think you need one. This is highly unlikely to happen but it could.

Since the M700 extactor is part of the bolt face its pretty unlikely that it could snap off, but on the otherhand the 700 extractor only contacts about a third of the rim area the 70 extractor does. Again for about $70 a sako style extractor can be put on the 700 to make it much better. I have never seen a M700 fail to extract a round however... seen them fail to fire numberous times in differnt rifles in cold wet weather though. I have never seen a M70 fail to fire in the same conditions.

The triggers on a M700 are fully adjustable for pull and creep. I have never adjusted a M70 trigger but can adjust a 700 tirgger in about 10 minutes. Factory triggers are ajustable down to about 2 pounds, and set from the factory with a seal on the screws at about 5 lbs. No spring cutting needed just a screwdriver if you want to adjust it...

As far as feeding... I personaly like the 70 better, all though my gun cabinet doestn't reflect that... With the 700, you have to push the bullet against a ramp (sometims damaging your bullet tips, unless you take it to a smith for minor work) to get it to feed, where as on a 70 you pull the bolt back and the cartrage engages the bolt and you push it into the chamber. The 70 has a much smother feeling action as well.

The only down side to the CRF is the bolt face has a cut on the bottom of it, creating a "weak" spot so to speak. Where as the 700 has no cut out on the bolt face but a full rim all the way around creating a more "stable" platform. Thats why a lot more compition rifles are built on the 700 than on the 70. Either one will shoot MOA though...

All in all either one is a fine action... But both Remington and Winchester has been putting out some dogs lately. The quality controll is not what it used to be. Both factory rifles should shoot equally as well...

Personally I would not get the tupperware stock on either one, but would rather get the laminated version, wood, or get an aftermarket, such as a Mcmillin, H.S. Precision etc.

I'll tell ya what I would do though, get a M70 Pre '64 300H&H or 300 win mag and forget about it

Ivan

 

[Buckrub]

Now with ALL that said, maybe you might wanna take a look at the Tikka!!!!!!

 

[RLH]

bambi, i have at least one 700 that was made since 82, and it won't open with the safety on. locks up everything. i have one of the newer "pre-64" style 70's in 300 mag. they're aren't a direct copy of the originals, but the action is pretty much the same, with the big extractor. the trigger surface is wider than the old 70's, but it adjusts the same as the old style. every 700 i've ever tried to adjust had a "canned" trigger and the only adjustment i could do was by cutting the spring. but i can say this, i've never seen a model 70 screw up, and i've seen 700's mess up enough times that i won't trust one very far from the truck. nearly got my foot blown off by an elk hunter that slid his safety off on a brand new 700, '06. it went off and hit the dirt just inches from my left foot. after we calmed down and the huge bull he was gonna shoot was gone, he tried to chamber another round and it went off again. took it apart and it had one little grain of dirt in the trigger notch. i've seen others do the same thing, but they weren't loaded and were in for repair. same problem, just a little dirt. and i've seen them multiple time leave a spent round in the chamber. hunting and at the range. most of the time they were poorly reloaded shells. but i've locked up a 70 so hard with overloads that i had to beat the bolt open with a 2x4 and it still pulled the case out. there are a lot of good rifles out there, the remington is one of them, but i won't use one when i have just one option. especially if i'm gonna be 20 miles from the road horseback. i like my old and new model 70's. and i like iron sights under my scope. something that's pretty hard to find anymore. i have one old .270 made before wwII that i've shot thousands of rounds through. never misses a beat. like i said before, my prejudices come from real experience with the guns. mentioned.

 

[BigPig]

I think you answered your own question. If it works don't fix it. Get the M70 since you are already used to its features and dimensions. There is a reason why the M70 has been dubbed "The Rifleman's Rifle."

 

[Bambistew]

RLH, I value the information you bring to this board, and so should others. You know more about hunting rifles than most people here ever will. My experience is limited compared to yours, I was just stating my limited experience and knowlege

I have four 700's made since 1988, all of them open with the safety on. I have seen older models that don't open with the saftey on though. All new 700 will open with the bolt closed however.

I have never had any of my 700's just go off, but that doesn't mean it can't happen by any means. I do know a kid that had a 700 go off when he opened the bolt, I don't know if it was a newer 700 or not. He shot a hole though the passenger side door of his truck. Pretty lucky he was alone! I always point my muzzle in a safe direction when I unload, and very rarely do I put a shell in and walk around in the woods, just trusting the safety...

The 700 trigger are actually pretty easy to adjust though. I'd write how to do it here but don't want some shmoe trying it and shooting himself... Do the slam test and its ready to go. I have mine set at about 3 pounds, and it breaks pretty cleanly.

Like I said, I have seen and have had Remingtons fail to fire, while I have never seen a winchester fail in the same conditions, numberous times.

I was going to get a "new" gun it would be a pre'64 300H&H or 300win mag OR mabey since the classics are a little more reasonable maybe I'd get one of those... Hint hint... M70

Ivan

 

[SaddleSore]

Thanks for your input. There was some great points brought up.

Thinking back, I have only ever had one gun fail me on the mountain, and that was my original .270 in the Remington M700. It was at day break on a very cold morning, with a 25" 4 point about a 150 yards from me, and the gun wouldn't shoot. Luckily, my brother was able to get him. I have since replaced it with a Winchester M70.

I guess you could say my Winchester M70 .300 Mag let me down last fall. It didn't want to shoot after it was in the scabbard tied to a horse that was rolling a 100 yards down the mountain. The horse was okay, but the gun wasn't. Snapped in two, bent barrel, etc.

Under the circumstances, I think I will over look this failure and go back to the Winchester M70 with the Pre-64 type action.

Thanks again.

 

[RLH]

dang saddlesore, that sounds like one o' my wrecks. tough way to loose a rifle. save the action and have it rebarreled.

bambi, i believe everything you're saying, just hasn't been my experience. i think in 99% of the situations i'd be real happy with a remington. but i've seen those handfull of situations and it changed my mind for sure. had a gunsmith tell me once that the dirt in the trigger deal is sort of a common ailment with 700's. i saw a .300 h&h pre 64 for sale the other day, they wanted a pile for it. i like the win mag better. h&h ain't a whole lotter hotter than an '06. but i'm a model 70 sorta guy. 'specially the ole ones. there's a gunshow in a few weeks, maybe i can sneak another one in the house without the ol' lady noticin' it. it's getting to where the old ones are less than a new one now. a guy can't have too many.

 

[147_Grain]

After doing a lot of research and shopping around, we decided to purchase a new Remington 700 SPS Stainless 30-06 as a gift for my son's earning the Eagle Scout Award.

Rifle was $469.00 from Sportsman's Warehouse in Utah and included a [24" stainless / parkerized barrel and Limbsaver Recoil Pad.

FYI:

The blued version was discounted to $398.00, but we liked the stainless at $469. (Note: The 2005 Stainless version retails for $613 and has replaced the 2004 BDL's Stainless. The 2005 SPS in blue ($520 retail) has replaced the 2004 ADL line which was dropped.)

We Piller Bedding the action / Free Floating the Barrel, and Adjusted the Trigger to 2 3/4 lbs. So far, results have been 7/8" MOA with the rifle only having 12 shots through the barrel. Should be a MOA shooter after the barrel's broken in.


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* Bullet Construction / Weight Matched to Game
* Choice of Caliber

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