Wyoming Resident Bonus point system

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feduptwo

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A group of sportsmen in wyoming are trying to take a look at a resident bonus point system for Wyoming and need some help.
Were looking for someone to help with some statistical spread sheets to figure out what bonus point system, if any, is right for Wyoming Residents for Deer, Elk, and Antelope.
What we want to calculate is what would happen if residents went to the existing system used for moose, and sheep.
Or if a Nevada style point system is the way to go. What we want is a spreadsheet that we can show legislators, G&F Commissioners and whoever wants to see, what preference points and bonus points would do to improve odds.
What I'm trying to say is I need help from a excel guru or someone with a statistics background to help design these spreadsheets. If you want to help or know someone that may want to help please PM me or email me
Thanks,
Eric
 
Why on earth would the residents of Wyoming want to get stuck in a Points system on elk/deer/antelope?

Wyoming residents have the very best drawing system in the whole Rockie Mountain west?

Robb
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-30-09 AT 07:38AM (MST)[p]I wouldn't agree with Wyoming residents having the best drawing system. Why do you think that?

If WY cut the non-resident tags to up to 10%, than I would agree. WY is giving at, or close to, 30% of mule deer tags to non-residents in most areas. I would be happy if I was a non-resident. Cutting the non-residents tags would reciprocate what other western states do, and we probably wouldn't have to go to a bonus/preference point system.

If we had to a make a choice today, I say use the Nevada system. Young hunters would have a chance at drawing all tags, not just 25% of the tags, but it would still give a statistically higher chance of drawing for max bonus point hunters.
 
Will you and the other sportsmans of Wyoming then pick up the cost that cutting 20% of NR tags will have to the budget, There is a reason that NR tags are higher in Dollars I wish too that all tags would cost the same no matter where you lived,NR is the backbone of F&G dept because they pay the bills and you have what they bring in to local area's motels food gas it adds up to Millions.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
Rob:

I am with you! I am about to move to Wyoming (within 30 days) and would hate to see a PP system. As it is now, I will have about a 20% chance at the elk hunt I like every year. A PP system works great if you are on board from the start. However, once you draw a tag you are so far behind you have almost no chance of drawing again. The point creep that has occured in every state with a PP system should show that a PP system is not the best choice.
 
Gator makes a good point about residents picking up the slack in funding if non-residents were reduced. I don't know what a Wyoming resident pronghorn tag costs, but I just paid for my son's California RESIDENT pronghorn tag last week, and it was $125.50.

Can you imagine the outrage in Wyoming if residents had to pay that much to hunt pronghorns there? Of course, if they did pay that much, then they could have far fewer non-residents allocated tags. On the other hand, there'd be a lot of broke motels, restaurants, meat cutters and other businesses that depend on the fall hunting season for the success of their businesses.
 
WY residents definitely do not want a preference point system. Straight bonus point system (one extra chance in the hat) might be ok.

I am all for WY going to ?up to 10%? for non-res ---- assuming Colorado makes the same change.
 
Here's something to think about. If you try to run it like the non-ressy point system, what will you do with the general over the counter elk and deer tags? Currently if a non-ressy draws a general elk or deer, he loses his points. Will a resident give up points if they buy a general tag? If not, the point creep will be astronomical. If a resident is able to obtain points on the cheap ($5-$7), the appilcations will sky-rocket. Currently there would almost be 100 years of points for area 100 elk.

Preference points would work for most antelope tags because the draw odds are usually 35-70%. For the hard to draw elk and deer areas (100 and 102), there are just too many applicants for a preference system to work. Even if a person is in the top points pool, it could be 15+ years before you draw.

Points systems suck because they create two classes of hunters. The other problem with points systems is that they ALWAYS change, and you end up with something completely different than what you bought into at the beginning.
 
G&Fish is currently looking at porposals for preference points for all limited quota hunts, elk, deer, anteloppe. Also being considered is waiting periods if drawn for a limited quota hunt. Don't know were/if a bonus point system is being considered.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"
 
I really don't care, as I'm a nonresident forced into the points gouging in most states. But bottom line, POINTS SUCK. PERIOD.

Preference is the worst for hunts that dont turn over in a reasonable period of time (creating a Ponzi Pyramid scam locking out all but the first in), but are OK for hunts that turn over in a reasonable time period. Bonus is the least objectionable overall...But what's wrong with just the luck of the draw year to year? Game laws change yearly, your situation does too. Figure on what you want this year with no penalty for next. Some will be luckier than others, oh well, but that's life.
 
That's the whole problem,Elmer.Some are luckier than others.Like the guy at work that drew 101 deer this year.He also drew 31 elk and 93 lope.In '06 and '07,he drew 102 deer back to back.I know a Wyo native who has NEVER drawn an elk or deer tag,and has been putting in for more than 20 years.I really don't want to hear how he should be putting in for easier to draw areas.That's not where he wants to hunt!Why shouldn't he have a shot at hunting 102 deer?The system is NOT FAIR.I don't care what anyone says.Plain and simple;the lucky keep drawing,the unlucky never do.Another guy I work with:2 area 102 deer and 2 area 30 elk in the last 5 years.Personally,I don't want preference points.I hate that system.Nevada has the best system.Couple that with a waiting period,and have 3 draws:elk first,deer 2nd,and goat 3rd.If you draw elk,you are out of the other 2.If you draw deer,you are out of the goat draw.This would level the playing field,and keep people from drawing 3 tags in 1 year,which is also unfair to the guys that have been putting in for years without drawing.Also,I would like to see the party permits go down from 6 to 3;maybe even 2.These guys are drawing 6 tags out of the pool if the leader gets his name drawn;so a family of 6 can kill 6 elk,etc.JMO.nontypical.
 
I think WY needs to look at both the percentage of tags going to NR and a possible bonus point system for residents. Residents are getting the short end of the stick in some cases. For example as it is right now a NR with high numbers of preference points for sheep have better drawing odds than residents with the same numbers of points!! Also nonresidents with elk preference points are already moving into a postion of better odds for some of the limited tags than residents. Something is wrong that those situations can happen. I have several outfitter friends and they of course like the fact that WY gives a higher percentage of permits to NR than ANY OTHER STATE. I have been a resident for over 25 years and still have never draw a sheep tag or one of the better limited entry elk or deer tags. NR will never have that happen to them with the new elk preference system and they have better odds on the sheep than me. So some type of system change sounds worth looking at to improve fairness.
 
My personal opinion is the Preference Point option is a diaster, and thats why were trying to work on a alternative. We still need some help with some spread sheets if anyone has a knack for that kind of work.
I did design a spread sheet and used unit 102 deer as an example. The data showed it would take approx 10 years to draw if you were in the unlucky last group to draw the tag on the tenth year. That is not horrible except for the nasty little problem is if you again were in the last group to draw the second time around it would be 23 yrs before you would be guarenteed another tag. (this data was compliled using the pref points system that wyoming uses for moose and sheep).

If I was wyoming supreme leader for the day. I would make the following changes

1. I would implement a nevada style bonus point system with squared points. 100% bonus point, no pref.
2. I would also conduct the elk draw and then take the successful type 1 applicants out of the draw for deer, and antelope. I would then conduct the deer draw and take the successful type 1 applicants out of the draw. Lastly, I would conduct the antelope draw. All remaining tags would be allocated on a second draw that is open to everyone. (which we already have a second draw).
3. I would monitor draw odds closely over the years following the above changes, and would add waiting periods for successful applicants if the odds did not improve dramitically.
4. I personally would like to see tags with under 15% draw odds double or triple in price (not including youth hunters) to eliminate all the people that put their wifes, uncles, and dads when they don't even care about hunting. You can camp and be with the family anywhere in the state.
The only people that don't recognize a problem are the few that draw the tags every year. I have a friend that in the last 6 years has had two under 4% elk tags, two under 9% deer tags, and 3 antelope tags to compliment the others. I have another friend that has not drawn one limited quota tag in wyoming in 12 years except a couple of high percentage antelope tags. The system has to be more fair.
Eric
 
I think the problem with virtually every preference point system bieng used today is that they allow individuals to hunt while still building points. This is what actually causes the tremendous point creep we see. For example:

Oregon allows me to put in for a tough-to-draw hunt, then bow hunt with over-the-counter tags in most of the state. Utah allows me to put in for a LE elk tag, and then buy a spike or general season tag, Colorado lets me put in for a great hunt, build points, then buy a landowner tag and hunt the same unit without losing my points, and on and on it goes.

A true preference point system, where every single time you purchased a tag your preference points would be forfeited, would allow all level of hunters to participate as often as they liked. Those committed to hunting hard to draw units would not be taking tags in other areas that different hunters would love to have, those happy to hunt a general tag would not be competing with the hard=core guy trying to draw a premium tag. Not sure how that would impact point creep, but I would guess it would reduce it substantially, at least for some tags.

The truth is, we want it both ways. We want to have a reasonable chance to hunt a premium unit every so often, while still getting to go on other hunts in between. No matter how you cut it, that math won't work, and you end up with the mess we have now.

If Colorado would do completely away with the landowner tag system for deer, they would actually have a true preference point system, since all tags for all weapons are on a draw. Of course, you can draw a second choice option without using peference points, but since those are tags that others did not want, that is probably still okay.

Scoutdog
 
There are a handful of units that Ressy hunters have to apply and draw....every single tag for a non-ressy has to be drawn.

Okay--10% tags for non-ressy BUT only in the UNITS ressy's have to draw.......

I get the ressy proclimation every year.....for hell sakes-----80% of the state is General/Over the Counter tags for ressy hunters---Elk/Deer....so those units are all draw for non-ressy hunters.......lets see take the math on that gig and it is like 5% state wide on elk/deer tags for non-ressy hunters.....

To me----that is a great state for ressy hunters!
Montana might be the best for ressy hunters by a pinch...





I could care less about the non-ressy crying.

The whole 'other states' is inmature.

How about using the 'other states' for charging state income tax? or fuel tax or--or--or.....

'Other States' is a very weak argument.

I can not find 1 sheep unit that the non-ressy odds where better than the ressy odds to draw?????? going back on my spreadsheets for 3 years.

I do not see where jealousy and bitterness will improve any aspect of life.

All point systems suck!
All point systems change from when ya first get in them.

Whats the difference of applying for 4-5 years and then finally drawing or having 4-5 'Points' and finally drawing?

Robb
 
If your going to be king for a day you should did your F&G budget for the next 20 years at the same time. LOL

How will the money thing work is the first thing you will have to overcome, The F&G will need money from either residents or nonresidents, If you want this to fly you have to get residents on broad with higher tags fees(like double them for regular draws and tripling them for hard to draw areas). that F&G still get what money they need and you have less NR hunters, Wait and tell all those guys to eat out and tip big and sleep in a motel during hunting season. You will have to find a way to come up with those millions of dollars NR bring into the state if you can do that bingo you will be able to pass it.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-09 AT 08:56AM (MST)[p]Bottom line is WY does not need a preference point or bonus point system for resident hunters.

Its a joke and heres why.

Nearly all the people that have responded from Wyoming on this thread are citing cases of "lucky" hunters drawing 102 deer tags and unit 100 elk tags. So what? I'll let you in on a "secret"...your general tags are better, and that isnt even up for debate. Look at a general deer tag...30 days of archery, Sept. 15-Nov 30 general rifle units...what more do you want? General elk tags...30 day archery hunt...early rifle elk hunts and some clear through november. Pronghorn permits...theres many good units with 80-100% draw odds. So, you cant hunt the red desert every year...BFD...theres other areas and other tags where B&C antelope are taken every single year.

I think if the people whining about not drawing would spend as much effort and time scouting and doing some research instead of thinking up some stupid point system, they wouldnt want a point system at all.

So, because a few disgruntled hunters cant draw a red desert antelope tag, a 102 deer tag, and a unit 100 elk tag, we have to restructure the entire system with ridiculous ideas including waiting periods, higher fees, lower NR tag numbers, bonus points squared, not being able to draw a deer or antelope tag if you draw an elk tag,...what a fargin' joke. I'll be fighting any kind of point system for resident deer, elk, and antelope...not needed and not wanted.

I've been a resident of WY for 10 years, moving here from Montana, where I was born and hunted for 20 years straight. I can tell you from first hand experience that WY has much more opportunity than MT with general tags for the hunter thats willing to put in even moderate effort.
 
Maybe Obama can institute a Federal Hunting license and say the hell with the States. Eliminate residency. This way we can just charge triple to all the out of County hunters!
 
This statement is the root of your reasoning...

" I personally would like to see tags with under 15% draw odds double or triple in price (not including youth hunters) to eliminate all the people that put their wifes, uncles, and dads when they don't even care about hunting. You can camp and be with the family anywhere in the state."

Go buy a chunk of property you can put under lock and key if that's how you feel.
 
Chewyman hit the nail on the head. Point systems will effectively eliminate an entire group of hunters without max points. If you are not in on the ground floor, you are basically done. I have a 10 year old daughter. If a preference point system is put into place on deer and elk, there will be no need to apply her for the so-called "premium areas".

As for the predictions on 102 taking 10 and 23 years, I think this is being optimistic. Points will be very cheap for residents ($5-7), and most everyone will jump on the bandwagon. The points will never cycle through if a resident can apply for a quota area, and then buy a general tag without losing their points.

Like I said before: Point systems ALWAYS, ALWAYS change and wind up becoming devalued.

I'm hoping the resident draw is left alone, but there are too many squeaky wheels needing greased. Also, the Game and Fish know exactly what a "cash cow" point systems are. Too bad we are all in such a hurry to fix the next generation right out of the game before they even get started.
 
Point systems only work if there are enough tags to cycle people through in a 2-5 year period. If there are severely limited tag numbers, then the point system only works for those who were elidgable to apply when the point system is first put in place.

Look at the mess Wyoming has with sheep and moose tags. Utah has the same problem. Limited numbers of tags means many people will never have the chance to draw the permit, but those who were able to the first year will get theirs.

I also agree with whoever said that Wyoming's general units are better than the limited entry units. I have max non-res deer points and I should have just kept applying for Region tags. I have been in enough Wyoming limited entry units and on enough hunts in those same units to realize I am wasting my time and money in applying for a limited tag.

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www.sagebasin.com
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Buzz is one of the lucky guys that draws tags.While I realize that Wyo has great general hunting,I just get tired of the same guys drawing,while others never do.I finally drew a premium Nevada deer tag after putting in for 10 years.I also drew a nice Az elk after the same period of time.It's been 20 years since I drew a Wyo elk tag.And I've lived here a lot longer than 10 years.Try 35!And that elk tag is the only one I've ever drawn!Tough luck,you say?Yeah,I know.I'm 57 yrs old,and I wouldn't mind drawing just one more premium elk tag.Just one.What a shame I have to go to other states to hunt premium units.I don't think a Nevada style point system would hurt anyone,really.It would give those that have been putting in without drawing a better chance to finally draw the tag they've been wanting thier entire lives!Some of you lucky guys might have to wait a few more years before drawing a tag.In the meantime,you could hunt the fabulous general areas that Buzz is talking about!
 
Pleasedear, you need to look again at the drawing information for those with preference points. If you look at the information sheet handed out by WGFD prepared by Kevin Hurley WGFD Cody, for use by hunters going into the 2009 draw:
2008 Preference Point Draw Results:
Unit 10 Resident drawing odds 16.7%, nonresident 100%
Unit 7 Resident drawing odds 41.7%, nonresident 100%
Unit 6 Resident drawing odds 50%, nonresident 100%
Unit 5 Resident drawing odds 24.8%. nonresident 63.2%
Unit 3 Resident drawing odds 86.2%, nonresident 100%
This situation of nonresidents having better drawing odds than residents is a direct result of such a high percentage of sheep tags going to nonresidents. As to the statements by folks that there is lots of general tags, SO WHAT! That is true in almost any state. What is at issue is the tags for the premium units. I am not in favor of a preference point system but bonus point systems do have merit. Why should somebody who is "lucky" get several premium tags while other sportsmen never get one? Is a system like that fair? Not to me. It is interesting that all the guys living in states which allocate very few premium tags to NR are so willing to have WY be so generous with its tags. How about lobbying your state to give us NR a bigger allocation and reduce your draw odds? It would increase you wildlife departments revenue and help generate money for the local economy. Come on, go for it! Right, we all know it will be a cold day in h____ before that happens. So lets all get honest.
 
nontypical, I wish I was one of the lucky guys that draws tags.

Since moving here I've drawn one tag for elk that has about 20% draw odds. I've drawn my first choice antelope area 5 out of 10 years...in areas that sport 85-99% draw odds. This year I didnt draw my first choice antelope area...the odds were 90%. Not sure how you call that "lucky"...but I'm not complaining I still have some great hunting to look forward to this year.

I applied for 40 permits this year in 8 states...so far my "luck" has been drawing a NR MT deer/elk combination license and a second choice antelope permit in Wyoming. Thats it.

Since I began applying for "good" permits in 1980...I've drawn a goat tag in MT, a moose permit in MT, one elk tag in AZ, one coues deer permit in AZ, and one limited entry elk tag in WY.

Despite my dismal record of drawing tags, I'm still not in favor of any kind of point system for WY resident deer, elk, and antelope.

Where I've been "lucky" is living in states that have great general hunting opportunities and lots of public lands. The average WY hunter has no idea how good they have it...and a point system will not make it better.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-09 AT 10:44PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-09 AT 10:40?PM (MST)

WYhunter,

You want if fair?

How about if you draw a premium unit for elk, deer, or antelope in WY you cant apply for or have a general license for the next 10 years.

We'll see how "premium" those tags really are...

I'd bet you'd be drawing a unit 100 elk tag and a 102 deer tag within a couple years.

I wouldnt trade my general deer tag for a 102 deer tag if I had to give up my general tag the following year, and thats not even up for debate.

Same with a unit 100 elk tag...not a chance if I had to sit out the next year with no general tag.
 
Packout if your wasting your time applying for a LE unit why not just draw a region tag and be done? Your points work for regions tags just as well as le units. If I were you I'd quite wasting my money especially if the unit I wanted to hunt was better than the one I was putting in for. Your crazy man.
I'm sure theres some places in Wyoming that has better General hunting than LE units but in the Southwest region the LE units smoke the general units. The general seasons north of rock springs are so crowded that the 4 wheelers out number the deer. Residents are very fortunate to be able to hunt the greys, the Winds, and the other great general season hunting areas no one is arguing that point.
At the end of the day we still enjoy hunting in our back yard (which are LE quota areas) with limited people, and there are ways to increase draw odds, and make it more fair without causing the earth to spin off axis. Remember in this whole discussion no one has mentioned changing general areas or anything but type 1 permits.
Another thing most of you are forgetting is Wyoming has 1/12 the resident hunters that utah has, and 1/16 the hunters that Colorado has so Wyoming residents should have better odds for le units.
Eric
 
If a points system is what everybody wants then a squared or better yet cubed bonus points system would be my vote.

Better yet, just leave it random draw. My boys and all future generations will have the same odds next year as they would in 10 years.

I play the points game in many states and they don't necessarily work in my opinion. When the point systems do work you just shot your load and your done.

My 2 cents
 
Buzz,
General tags are not the issue. So to have a system that says to can't apply for a general tag after the year you draw a premium unit tag, accomplishes nothing and I would not be in favor of that. Even a system that says you have a waiting period if you draw a premium tag before you can draw another premium tag is not really neccessary. A weighted bonus point system like Nevada takes care of that for all purposes without the need of a waiting period. After the system gets going there is only a very small percentage that will draw quickly again with a weighted bonus system yet everyone still has some chance. If you don't draw premium then you should be able to buy a general tag over the counter like it is now.
 
BuzzH hit the nail on the head.

I am sick of these topics. God forbid a nonresident forgoe hunting for 15 years while waiting on a limited entry tag while residents hunt some of the best general units in the West all 15 years.

I might as well stir the pot a little more. How about us nonrezi's with max points that could move to WY and jump ahead of the residents after WY establishes a resident point system? Under this scenario, WYGF's greed will be hurting the local guys.
 
WYhunter,
While buying a general tag if you don't draw limited sounds good in principle, all it will do is create a log jam in the point system like Colorado. If you want to do it right, make the applicant burn his points any time he draws any tag (general or limited) like Nevada. That way, hunters must make a choice between quantity of hunts versus quality of hunts. In NV, you can bowhunt deer pretty much every year but if you want a quality rile hunt, be prepared for a wait.
 
I have to agree with Buzz and WyoXtec on this one.

I don't think we should put a points system in place just because someone hasn't drawn an elk tag in 30 years. If your so unlucky in drawing tags maybe you should put in with lucky people.

If we start a points system now than the younger generation will never have a chance to draw a tag. The moose and sheep point system is a prime example.

I can't believe anyone that cared about future generations hunting would support this system.
 
Wy-H ya had me saying HuH? on those sheep %......I reserve the right to double check the last 3 years and rebuttal on Monday....far enough.

I am very-very pro-non-ressy because I am a non-ressy in every state but 1.....just like you.

I reachout and help many guys that have drawn a non-ressy tag here in my home state as I want them to enjoy and have a great hunt.......free of course as it is a hunter helping another hunter out.

Plus NO non-ressy has ever-never-ever drawn my ressy tag from me nor has a non-ressy ever came here and shot my animal...

WE pay for the 90/10 split in my home state......$280.00 for a ressy LE elk tag---what you paying when ya draw a ressy LQ elk in Wyoming bro?

WE pay $508.00 for a Sheep tag as a ressy----what you pay on a Wyo ressy Sheep tag....????

Chump change huh....

So it reads like you guys don't want a point system to better your 'odds'......more so to curb the lucky guys?????

Does not every one start with 0 points the first year?

So whats to say you guys will not still have those dang lucky guys drawing tags?

This idea has got SFW written all over it.

Anyways------

Have a safe and great holiday wknd All-------talk at ya Monday,

Robb
 
Please Dear,

We want a system that gives the people who haven't drawn a Le tag a statistically better chance than those who have.
We want to make the overall odds go up for everyone. Only two ways to do this. Increase tags(most the time hurt quality) or decrease applicants. Thats why it is crucial to include waiting periods, or have a stacked draw. Remember if you draw a elk tag, you can still go hunt LE deer, or get a type 2 liesence for antelope. By doing this we are decreasing the amount of people in the draw which attacks the odds at the heart of the problem.
 
WYhunter,

So, what you're saying is that you want everyone to sacrifice their chances at a LE permit every year by forcing a point system on them, but then YOU dont want to give up anything?

I think in keeping with your "fairness" in tag distributions, if you draw a LE permit...you dont hunt that species on a general tag or another LE permit for 5-10 years. You are not willing to sacrifice jack $hit for me having to sacrifice my chance to draw a LE permit each year. You want to be able to draw your LE permit and then continue to hunt on general tags after that. I dont agree with that. If I give something up, so should you.

feduptwo,

Not sure how you can make these two statements, back to back, with a straight face:

"We want a system that gives the people who haven't drawn a Le tag a statistically better chance than those who have.
We want to make the overall odds go up for everyone"

Huh? You want a system that gives some people a statistically better chance while over-all odds go up for everyone?

How does that work? I've yet to see a system that increases EVERYONES odds when it statistically improves odds for only the top tier of applicants.

Also, your idea regarding type 2 antelope tags is a joke. Theres several thousand leftover type 1 tags as I type this. Why in the hell would the WYGF and the residents of Wyoming sacrifice the revenue...and why would a WY residents give up hunting opportunities when theres more antelope than people living in Wyoming? Not to mention that remaining type 1 permits after the resident draw go back into the NR pool. If that didnt happen, there would be another few thousand resident type 1 permits left over.

What you need to do is quit worrying about draw odds and statistics and finding "creative" ways to strip WY residents of the abundant opportunities they currently have. Put in for permits every year like everyone else in the current random system we already have in place.

Any point or preference system creates an unfair system for all except those that are in on the ground floor...and thats just a simple fact.
 
Buzz,
You are missing the points & key issues in the thoughts being thrown out here. If you look at the problems with the sheep preference program you will see what is going to happen to resident WY hunters due to the new NR elk and deer preference programs. Thus the reason some sportsmand like myself and feduptwo see the need for some changes that might include a bonus point system.

PleaseDear,
Yes, the sheep preference point program shows just how bad WY residents are getting the shaft. 2009 preference draw results show dramaticly what can go badly wrong with a preference point system & why I do not favor preference but only looking at a bonus system for WY.
2009 Unit 5(most sought out unit)Resident Max points,31.3% odds.
NR Max points,100% odds and for those NR with one point under the Max the odds were still 21.95%. I have one point short of max sheep but as was pointed out by someone else, need to move out of WY so that I can get a permit in unit 5 without having to wait another 10 years. Under the WY Sheep preference system many guys who had already had a sheep permit were able to enter the draw the first year and with max points already have enjoyed a second sheep hunt while my 18 year old WY native son will likely never get one in his lifetime. I can already see that the same thing will happen with the elk & deer system as it currently is unless somethng is changed.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-09 AT 09:34AM (MST)[p]WYhunter,

No, I'm not missing the point, YOU ARE.

What you're griping about is that NR hunters have better draw odds. Yeah, they should, less applicants for more tags.

But, you dont change that by creating a PP system for RESIDENTS. You change that by lowering the percentage of tags available to NR's. The NR odds and the number of times they draw premium units is not going to change if you impose a preference/bonus system on residents. It wont, and thats just a fact.

The part you're missing is that YOU and your 18 year old son are both victims of the Preference Point system. He'll likely never draw, and you're going to wait a long, long time to draw one. The same thing will happen with deer, elk, and antelope. You'll be in good shape for ONE tag, then you're done. Younger hunters and those with less than max points are screwed.

Think about a 12 year old kid who starts hunting this year in Wyoming...will that kid EVER have a chance at a sheep tag? he's 14 years behind in points, thats daunting, to say the least.

The answer is easy, and thats to make sheep, moose, goat once in a lifetime. People that draw NEVER enter the draw again.

The fundamental problem is that everyone wants theirs, and they want it NOW. A point or preference system isnt going to help...only create an unfair system.

Oh, and just for the record...this does stink of WYSFW...
 
Wyoming residents are not getting the shaft on sheep tags! The reason non-ressy's have a higher drawing % is the simple fact that permits cost 22 times what a resident pays and the preference points cost about 15 times what the resident pays. Couple that with the fact that a non-ressy must hire a guide to hunt the wildernes. It is a simple economics lesson that $11k plus for a hunt will reduce the applicant pool.
 
Buzz-For the record,this is NOT affiliated with SFW.Just some guys that think the system is unfair and needs to be changed.In Nv,the squared system works well,so the ressy hunters there draw tags of "lesser" quality while still building points for the high quality tag.Colorado's system is very similar in that regard.One big difference is those two states are completely limited quota.No general tags.For this reason,I am opposed to the PP system.The BP system may not work,either.It's just something we are looking at, because to many people,the current system favors the "lucky"few.If you have only drawn one LQ tag,and know others that keep drawing the same tag,you know what I'm talking about.You've only been here for 10 years,and I don't know what the odds are for drawing the unit you put in for,but if the odds are below 10%(or even 5%),statistically you should draw a tag every 10 yrs at 10%,and every 20 years at 5%.How will a bonus point system like Nevada's make those odds any worse?If you can still hunt general(like you have been anyway),what is the big deal?As far as the youth goes,youth hunting seasons are long overdue in this state,anyway(IMO).10%-15% of tags for a LQ unit should be set aside for youth,and they should also be able to put in for the regular draw as well( giving them even better odds of drawing).Bonus point systems worked for me in other states.That's the only way I ever draw tags;is to be in the max point pool.Also,IMO,we should reduce the party tags down to 2-3 maximum.In unit 102 deer,ALL the people I know that drew this year were party applicants.Does a family of six really need six elk in the freezer?The LQ deer and elk units in SW Wyoming are tough to draw.With a a BP system where points are squared(or even cubed,like Tory said),at least you would have the knowledge that someday you are going to draw a tag.The lucky guys are still going to draw anyway,and we can all still enjoy general hunting all over the state.I agree with you on the once in a lifetime tags for sheep,goats and moose,too.
 
Nontypical,

You are incorrect about Nevada. You cannot draw a lesser quality tag and still build points. If you draw a tag, even on the left-over draw, your points go to zero.

Your assumptions are incorrect about Colorado, also. They have OTC elk tags. Their preference point system clearly demonstrates what happens when you can build points and still hunt a general tag. The point creep in Colorado has been staggering. When I first started buying points, a guy could hunt the best elk areas with about 10 points. Then guess what? The drawing/points game changed and now it takes over 15 points to draw second tier units.

I'm still trying to figure out how you think a random draw is "unfair". Points systems (bonus & preference) are extremely unfair to those who do not get into the game on the first year. At least with a random draw, everyone is on the same level. How can that be unfair?

As far as the non-ressy quota for sheep, cutting the quota won't do much. Say you cut the 2009 quota of 60 in half. Adding 30 permits to a pool of 9407 residents with points is kinda like pissing on the proverbial forest fire.
 
My bad about Nevada.I was referring to Colorado deer,also.Random draw is fair,if you are drawing tags.Just not to the 90+% that never draw a tag(refering to SW Wy).It's more than fair to the lucky few who do.I pretty much explained earlier why I think the system is unfair.I didn't get in on the ground floor in Nv or Az,yet I finally drew tags after 10 years with bonus point systems.dwalton,are you from Wyo?What part?
 
I've played both sides of the fence of the resident/non-resident tags in Wyo. Grew up in SW Wyo. Lived in Nevada the last 18 years, and then moved back last year.

I feel the underlying message brought forward by those who want the points systems is that the random draw is taking "their" tag. They don't care what it takes,as long as they get "their" tag. It's folly to think you can improve the draw odds for everyone.

One thing is for certain: points systems make more money for the G&F than tag sales. Another thing is also a fact: those in the top of the pool will see their odds increase. The vast majority of hunters will see their random draw odds go from 5-15% to less than 2%. Lastly: in every state that has a point system, the rules have changed along the way resulting in something different than what was first intended.

Point systems become devalued and point creep becomes a reality. An example of this is allowing people to purchase points for a very low price. Wyoming used to make you apply to get a point for sheep and moose. Then they let you buy the points for $7, which resulted in an incredible backlog of point-holders. The same scenario will take place with deer and elk. Especially if people can buy points and have a general license in the same year.
 
Nontypical,
Why do you care if he lives in WY? Does that mean he can't have as equal of an opinion as you?

I'm sick and tired of hearing guys, espically wyoming residents who are transplants anyways disregard other peoples opinions because they do not live in Wyoming. Like you think you are better than someone else because you live where you do.

Nontypical you need to open your eyes and listen really carefully to what Buzz, Dwalton and Wyoxtec have to say. They are right on the money. You are so far off its almost embarrassing.

You are standing on one leg and am about to fall over. And no one is going to catch you. I think in your old age you are going senile.

If you are not going senile you are just out there to mess up hunting for our future generations. Nothing I would like to see from someone who holds a position on the Mule Deer Foundation.

If they started a points system in the next couple years it will only take 3 to 4 years before anyone turning 12 will NEVER be able to draw a tag. And that is a fact. Why would you want to do that Nontypical?

Why would you want to take away the chance of thousands of future hunters from at least drawing a tag?

Having a chance at something is better than having no chance at all

I think maybe we should just open 102 for general deer hunting if you want to hunt it so badly. And while you are down there chasing the little bucks you have "guided" other hunters to, everyone else like Buzz WyoXtec and Dwalton will be in other areas killing real bucks.

Your jealously of others drawing tags should not be a reason to change a FAIR system.
 
Wybhtn-Your obvious dislike for me and MDF is rearing it's ugly head again.I asked dwalton where he lived because this discussion is about Wyo residents.Anyone who doesn't live here should not even be involved in the discussion.It's not about me being better than anyone because I live here(where did that come from?).I don't know you,but obviously you must know me(or think you do),and for some reason choose to personally attack me.My opinion is my opinion.dwalton and Buzz exchanged opinions with me in a manner that got our points across without personally assaulting each other.I knew this post would turn ugly,and it figures that it was you that made it so.I do NOT want to take hunting away from future generations.As I said earlier,I am in favor of a youth hunter drawing to get them more involved.Just wondering,how involved are you in any issues that affect sportsmen(or anything else for that matter)?Or are you just one of those guys that whines about things and never does anything?I may be senile,but at least I have the stones to stand up for what I believe in in the public eye,not just behind a keyboard!
 
It is sad that a respectable exchange of thoughts can not occur on this site without personal attacks and name calling. You will note that the folks so anti this discussion are throwing out all the insults. Makes you have to stop and wonder.
 
"Anyone who doesn't live here should not even be involved in the discussion."

Well then maybe fedup should have posted in 'wyoming' instead of 'general hunting.' Soliciting the help and input of only WY residents would have also made sense.

I don't give a rip what WY residents decide to do in the resident draw. But - cutting tags to non-res has been mentioned and the money I donate every year to the state of WY says I can be involved in that discussion.

(and any non-res that applies in my home state of CO should also have a voice in regards to how tags are allocated in CO)

And you really should get a handle on the basics if you are going to take such a strong stance. There are absolutely no similarities between NV and CO.

I have more comments about BPs and PPs, but I will keep them to myself. After all I don't live in WY....
 
Nontypical,

You're heading down a slippery slope that I dont think you'll recognize until you're halfway down it.

Your idea of youth tags, while well intended, is not going to work either. I can tell you for a fact, that all you'll be creating with youth tags in LE units is having a bunch of kids hunting that really dont care. When I was 12-16, all I cared about was having SOMETHING to hunt, didnt have to be in the best units. Too many parents want short-cuts for their kids to hunt the best units and hunt for a B&C buck. Not sure thats the right way to bring up new hunters, how about teaching them HOW to hunt and teaching ethics. How about they pay their dues and apply for 10 years, like you said YOU had to do?

I'm all about recruiting young hunters, let them hunt does all season and cow elk all season in any general unit. Give them opportunity that way.

Another problem you'll be creating with giving MORE youth tags is that those tags are going to have to come from somewhere. They will have to come from the resident pool...which means now you have a pool for youth hunters, a pool for NR hunters, and the general pool (which now has even fewer tags than before). Now the draw odds will drop even more, except for NR's and Resident youth hunters. That means it will take even longer to get through the ground level applicant pool. It will also make your chances of drawing more than one LE permit...just about ZERO.

Likewise, there is a good chance that any youth only tags will be hard to draw, maybe even possible if you only allow 12-15 year old kids to apply. Too many applicants and not enough tags...sound familiar?

Also, by the odds, I have drawn LESS tags in Wyoming than I statistically should have. I'm not complaining about it though, its just the way the cookie crumbles.

Based on the point systems I'm part of in AZ, MT, CO, NV, WY and UT...I'd say the systems dont work that well. I have from 4-10 points in all those states, and I'm still years away from hunting the top units in any of them. Oh, sure I can draw a tag in the book cliffs...but I wont be hunting the Henry Mtns anytime soon. I also wont be hunting the book cliffs again before I'm 55 years old if I go that route. I'm simply not even in the running at all in some (AZ strip tag for instance) as I'm not in the max point pool. How fair is to have a ZERO chance of drawing premium tags???

Get used to it if you push this issue with Wyoming, because I can assure you that is exactly what will happen.

You'll get your ONE chance and then its over, you'll make it impossible for others to ever draw... frankly, thats not worth it to me.

I'll take my chances in the random draw...
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-09 AT 09:01PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-09 AT 08:59?PM (MST)

I think the only way to improve odds for applicants, and not be too disruptive of certain segments of applicants chances would be to give one extra chance to applicants for each unsuccessful try,in other words one extra draw number for each unsuccessful year, Nevada used to do that when there were less hunters and more tags, Utah also used to do that, That would be a good balance,giving a little better chance to those that aren't so lucky. The %75-25% split would be a disaster in my opinion.
 
Buzz & dwalton,
We are all pretty much on the same page regarding preference point systems and their problems. I still have to however question the pure random draw. You term this being jealous but I question if it is a "fair" distribution of opportunities. If a hunter has been fortunate to have a premium tag in WY and kill lets say a 350 bull; If he applies again in WY & gets another premium tag and takes another trophy bull before another hunter is given a chance at his first time to hunt a premium area; is he lucky or selfish? Most hunters want to sometime have a chance to hunt a premium area and get "a big one". Is there some way to better spread the opportunities around so more people have a chance at a premium tag while still keeping WY's general elk hunting opportunities. I look at UT and think maybe too much importance has been put on trophy animals. There is a delicate balance. I diffently don't want a system that ends up with you only getting to hunt every few years.

PS My son and others I hunt with always get first chance at any elk or deer. I have had opportunities.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-02-09 AT 11:48PM (MST)[p]Wyoming definitely needs a preference point system. For those saying Wyoming hunters don't want a preference system, go talk to the G & F. One of their biologists was saying at our spring meeting, that their research shows the majority of Wyoming hunters do favor a preference point system. I'd assume that means more than 50% of us. The key to selling a preference point system is to not go with a pure points system like Colorado. I'm in favor of capping points at some number like 3, 4, or 5 and using a bonus system like Colorado does for sheep and moose. Then I'd designate a 1/4 of the allocated tags in an area for random draw absent any points consideration and the remainder going to max point holders with improved odds for bonus points holders. For those not familiar with Colorado sheep and moose, you can still draw with max points even if you have none or only a couple of weighted bonus points. The benefit with capped points is you don't have to worry about point creep and those guys who draw have to wait a few years to get back to max points, however they'd still have a chance with the random tags. All area's would see an improvement in odds. Some area's like elk area 100 would see minimal improvement. I think most guys who put in for 100 do so not expecting to draw anyway, so some improvement in odds is better than nothing. In a lot of the antelope area's, guys would be guaranteed a tag every 2 - 3 years and still have a shot every year with the random tags. The tough part is getting the legislature to change the current crappy law. On a side note, if you also wanted to slightly improve draw odds, make it a crime for dead beat parents, primarily dads who aren't paying child support to apply for big game licenses. If yer a loser who won't/can't support yer kids, then you probably can't afford to go hunting. Sorry if the shoe fits...
 
As soon as you begin setting aside 50% or more of tags to those with max points, you have already derailed the system--now you have Utah's current system. Good luck drawing a tag over there with less than max points. I think you should go look up Utah's draw odds for the random drawing.

If you must have a point system, the best point system all around is Nevada's bonus point squaring system. With that said, while everyone has a chance at drawing, even it is slanted toward those that got in on the ground floor of the system.

Based upon what you WY guys say you want, you should go with a pure draw system with waiting periods. I would say 5 year wait for deer and elk and 3 year wait for antelope on the best limited entry units. That way everyone has the exact same (fair) chance to draw and those that are lucky enough to draw are prevented from being "too lucky" as you guys like to say. However, I think it all boils down to you guys are looking for something that will eventually guarentee YOU to draw a tag and aren't as concerned about fairness. Fair means everyone and I mean everyone from first year applicant to 20 year drawing veteran has the same chance. However, that isn't what you guys are proposing. You are trying to give the longtimers an advantage. Once you give preference to one, you are taking from another--unfair.
 
I think it would be easier to just start a Fund where .25 cents from every license goes into an account.

From that account every year the money will be used to buy the governer's deer tag. And then the deer tag will be given to the biggest whiner of the year.

Our 2010 recepient will be <insert drumroll> NONTYPICAL

He'll finally get to go hunt unit 102 where he guides a hunter to a nice 160 buck every year! Go get 'em Tiger!

Take lots of pictures with your kodak disposalable camera and be sure to scan them to your computer and post them for us to see!!!!

If the .25 cents from every license will not work maybe we can just get a few monstermuleys members together to fund this. I'll pitch 50.00 bucks. It would be more but you know, the economy and all.
 
If Founder wants to improve this site he really should block guys from posting who just have to attack people instead of posting something worth reading! How about it Founder? What do the rules say about guys like wybhtn?
 
I'm done trying to debate statistical realities with people who don't want to understand the truths of point systems or really understand how draws work (hint: a 10% random draw doesn't mean you can expect to draw a tag roughly every 10 years).

This thread has basically become about how "unfair" a random draw is, about how someone is "greedy" if they luck out and kill more than one good bull in a draw hunt area, about if people can draw "their" tag they don't care how the future generations of hunters are effected. Sounds a lot like Obama's health care plan where it's not fair that I have health insurance while someone else doesnt, so I need to be taxed to provide for those who aren't covered. For at least the third time, I repeat, THERE IS NOTHING MORE "FAIR" THAN A RANDOM DRAW!

Bottom line is I think we'll get preference points in Wyo. It will be the same system that is in place with sheep, moose, and non-ressy elk, deer and antelope (they won't make special changes for one type of draw). The reason we'll get it is tied to the fact that point systems make a HUGE amount of money for the G&F, and the public feels they are honestly getting something for their money.
 
WYhunter,

Explain to me how a totally random draw year after year is unfair?

I find this quote of yours troubling...to say the least:

"You term this being jealous but I question if it is a "fair" distribution of opportunities. If a hunter has been fortunate to have a premium tag in WY and kill lets say a 350 bull; If he applies again in WY & gets another premium tag and takes another trophy bull before another hunter is given a chance at his first time to hunt a premium area; is he lucky or selfish? Most hunters want to sometime have a chance to hunt a premium area and get "a big one"."

I think you summed up the problem with LE permits in those couple sentences...hunters want the easy way out for a "big one".

A couple flaws though in your statement...for starters, how many "big ones" are killed in say deer unit 102? What do you think the average score of the buck killed in 102 is? I'd bet the average buck killed there would not even gross score 150 B&C. I've seen plenty of bucks that have been killed in 102...and they arent anything special. What it is, is an easy road hunt for people that wont put the effort in to hunt a general unit.

The same thing with unit 100 for elk...when was the last time a true net 350 bull came from there? I'd bet the average bull taken in 100 is less than 300 inches. But, again, its an easy road hunt in wide-open country for less than average bulls...bulls that any hunter applying minimal effort in general areas could kill every year.

Again, my point is that you're going to create a monster with a pp or bonus point system.

I couldnt care less if I ever hunt 102, 128, 101, etc. for deer...the units just arent that good. Certainly not good enough to have to be "fair" and give everyone an opportunity.

Every resident Wyoming hunter has more than ample opportunity to take "big ones" in general units, they just flat arent willing to put the effort in to do it. They dont need to draw a "premium" unit to find mature animals...and they most definately do not need a PP/BP system to do it either.

How about getting off the couch, parking the atv, and putting in a little effort instead of whining about needing a "system" to make drawing a premium tag "fair" so they can hunt "a big one".

To top it off, 99% of the people that draw "premium" units end up whacking the first decent buck they see...and then saw the antlers off and hang them in the rafters with all their other "big ones".

What a joke.
 
quite a lot of nutty rambling going on, from Obamas health care plan all the way to lazy hunters wanting to kill a big one. One of the reasons they have point systems is to give those that aren't lucky a better chance to draw tags once in a while, you can make a case about money for the agencys, but its mostly a matter of trying to make things a little more fair, giving an extra chance or slot each year for those that are unlucky is not unreasonable, and was done for years in some other states, when demand gets higher there is usually pressure to do other things like Nevada, Utah, Arizona, now do.
 
Bottom line guys-The Wyoming legislature is already exploring a PP system for deer,elk,and lopes.This looks like it may happen.If you want your opinion heard,I suggest you contact your state rep or senator.I am vehemently opposed to a PP system like we currently have for sheep and moose and goats.Comparing our system to other states as far as point creep is not really an honest comparison.We have far less hunters in this state than Utah or Colo(for example).If Utah didn't have a point system in place statewide odds of drawing a limited entry deer tag would be around 1%.Wyoming statewide odds are much better for LQ hunts.There is a legislative commitee exploring this subject presently.I would like to see some statewide NON-legislative commitees set up to see what we could come up with.If we leave it to the legislators,we may not like what we get.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-03-09 AT 08:16PM (MST)[p]Hey piper,

If its not laziness why would a person fight 15% draw odds to hunt 102? How many booners have come out of 102 in the last 10 years?

How many booner bulls have come out of unit 100 in the last 10 years? Why fight crap draw odds (1-2%) to shoot a 290 six point?

Now, the real question...why create a big fat mess (point system) that will cost WY hunters more money and give them ONE chance at a "premium" tag in their lives? In particular when your odds of taking a real trophy buck or bull is likely no better, or worse, than hunting general areas? Its just not worth it.

Oh, and nontypical, someone already mentioned it, but its worth repeating...the WYGF is not going to have 2 seperate types of points system. If anything is adopted, I'll bet you a c-note right here that its the exact same thing as the sheep, moose, and NR deer/elk/antelope system. It wont be a NV system, it wont be a bonus point system, I'm 100% positive on that.

You're also wrong about point creep, its will happen and theres not question about it. Just look at the odds, and if a new point system is implemented a lot of people that normally wouldnt worry about applying for a LE area will still get the points. They may not have any intentions of hunting a LE unit NOW, but are going to bank points just in case and get in on the ground floor.

Fast forward 5-10 years into the future...LE areas that had 15-20% draw odds are going to be worse now, I'd bet less than 5%. Those people that got in on the ground floor will want to spend their points somewhere as they invested in them for 5-10 years. They'll apply in the few "best" LQ areas...as they dont want to "waste" points on average LQ areas. More people will apply and you'll get "new" people applying (with max points) every year that never would have without a point system.

I'm a perfect example with my 10 Utah deer points. I have enough points to draw several of the "better" lq areas. Instead of applying for one of those and getting out of the max point pools in those units (like the book cliffs)...I'll likely keep building points. I'll likely eventually give up on the Henries or Pauns. tag and apply for the books. I'll draw the tag for sure and I'll create point creep by applying with more points than it takes to draw.

The same thing will happen in Wyoming...it happens in EVERY state that has preference systems and Wyoming will not be unique. If you believe otherwise...you're fooling yourself.

It happened in Colorado, and its happened in Montana when they implemented their point systems. Hunters get so deep into point systems that they dont want to "waste" points...so they keep applying for the best areas. Which in turn, draws out how long it will take to cycle through all those applicants with max points and also drops the draw odds like a rock.

Mark my words...a point system is going to degrade your chance at the couple "best" deer and elk LQ areas in Wyoming.

If this is already in the legislature, we're too frickin' late to ask for 2 systems. We'll get the same system we already have.

Enjoy your one tag...as it will be your last.
 
Proponents of a point system have tunnel vision and can't see or hear anything beyond the fact that they will eventually be guaranteed a tag if they wait it out long enough in a point system. I agree--WY will implement the exact same system that WY is using for nonresidents.
 
I dont mind points in most cases. Colorado's system is just rotten. I do like Nevada's system though. Everyone can draw and each unsuccessful only tips the odds your way slightly each year. JMO. I am not a Wyoming resident. I do think it should be up to the residents to decide, not the outsiders.
 
The reason why I orginally started this post was to ask for help with being more informed about what a PP or BP system would do for the Wyoming sportsmen. Some of you are quick to point out the ugly situations that other states are in with their point systems so lets look Utah to see what would happen if their wasn't a point system. I choose to analyze Utah only because they do the best job of putting their numbers in a usable format on their website.
In 2008 Utah had 64,354 resident hunters put in for 1106 LE deer tags for an overall odds of 1.7%.
I then looked at what happened if you added the resident elk applicants into the deer pool. (assume that 75% of the utah resident hunters given the chance would put in for both elk and deer) This brings the overall odds of a resident drawing a deer tag to .0082% which would virtually guarantee they would never draw a tag over a lifetime of hunting in Utah. That is 8 thousanths of 1 percent chance of drawing a tag. The truth is when you have that kind of demand on that limited of resource there is no good way spread the resource. Since all of my friends from Utah have had either a premium elk tag or deer tag, or both I would say Utah's point system is working as good as can be expected.
Colorado and Nevada are very similar because they have large numbers of resident hunters for a small numbers of premium LE tags.
In 2009 Wyoming had 13,104 put in for 2948 tags for a overall resident LE deer draw of 22.7% The high percentage is a indicator of a state with a very low population which translates to a low population of resident hunters
Lets for a second look at what would happen if we assume that 50% of the Wyoming residents choose to put in for LE type 1 elk instead of LE type 1 deer if they were forced to choose like Utah. Our resident LE Deer odds would go from 22.7% to 45%. This is just another idea to improve our odds without even going to a point system.
My point to this whole post is that until you look at the numbers you don't know what is going to happen. There are a few of you that are convienced that no changes are the way to go and your entitled to your opinion but I'll tell you that in talking with resident sportsman in the community most agree some changes are needed. Its our responsibility to make sure whatever changes are made are the best for the people of Wyoming.
I think we a agree that a pref system modeling like moose and sheep isn't the way to go and this is what the game & fish support because its already established and they don't have to think outside the box.
I also think its funny that some people posting choose to beliitle, and call people whoe disagree with them names. You know if we all were in a room together discussing this the'd be the same people yelling and throwing tantrums. When I run to this in life I know these people generally know nothing of what their talking about and they diguise the fact that they know nothing by acting they way they do. The louder they yell the less they know. Something to think about before you act like a child. If the shoe fits wear it.
Theres several people arguing that general season hunting in Wyoming is better LE hunting so we don't need a draw system that improves odds or levels the playing field. I don't see the how these two topics have anything to do with the other? In my opinion Wyoming has the best general season hunting out of any Western state and I can ensure you that all of us that are arguing for a way to improve odds are going to take full advantage of our resident opportunities whether it be in a LE unit or general season.
My two cents,
Eric
 
The reason why I orginally started this post was to ask for help with being more informed about what a PP or BP system would do for the Wyoming sportsmen. Some of you are quick to point out the ugly situations that other states are in with their point systems so lets look Utah to see what would happen if their wasn't a point system. I choose to analyze Utah only because they do the best job of putting their numbers in a usable format on their website.
In 2008 Utah had 64,354 resident hunters put in for 1106 LE deer tags for an overall odds of 1.7%.
I then looked at what happened if you added the resident elk applicants into the deer pool. (assume that 75% of the utah resident hunters given the chance would put in for both elk and deer) This brings the overall odds of a resident drawing a deer tag to .0082% which would virtually guarantee they would never draw a tag over a lifetime of hunting in Utah. That is 8 thousanths of 1 percent chance of drawing a tag. The truth is when you have that kind of demand on that limited of resource there is no good way spread the resource. Since all of my friends from Utah have had either a premium elk tag or deer tag, or both I would say Utah's point system is working as good as can be expected.
Colorado and Nevada are very similar because they have large numbers of resident hunters for a small numbers of premium LE tags.
In 2009 Wyoming had 13,104 put in for 2948 tags for a overall resident LE deer draw of 22.7% The high percentage is a indicator of a state with a very low population which translates to a low population of resident hunters
Lets for a second look at what would happen if we assume that 50% of the Wyoming residents choose to put in for LE type 1 elk instead of LE type 1 deer if they were forced to choose like Utah. Our resident LE Deer odds would go from 22.7% to 45%. This is just another idea to improve our odds without even going to a point system.
My point to this whole post is that until you look at the numbers you don't know what is going to happen. There are a few of you that are convienced that no changes are the way to go and your entitled to your opinion but I'll tell you that in talking with resident sportsman in the community most agree some changes are needed. Its our responsibility to make sure whatever changes are made are the best for the people of Wyoming.
I think we a agree that a pref system modeling like moose and sheep isn't the way to go and this is what the game & fish supports because its already established and they don't have to think outside the box.
I also think its funny that some people posting choose to beliitle, and call people whoe disagree with them names. You know if we all were in a room together discussing this the'd be the same people yelling and throwing tantrums. When I run to this in life I know these people generally know nothing of what their talking about and they diguise the fact that they know nothing by acting they way they do. The louder they yell the less they know. Something to think about before you act like a child. If the shoe fits wear it.
There is several people arguing that general season hunting in Wyoming is better LE hunting so we don't need a draw system that improves odds or levels the playing field. I don't see the how these two topics have anything to do with the other? In my opinion Wyoming has the best general season hunting out of any Western state and I can ensure you that all of us that are arguing for a way to improve odds are going to take full advantage of our resident opportunities whether it be in a LE unit or general season.
My two cents,
Eric
 
My question is this, what happens when a nonresident with max points moves to Wyoming and establishes residencey? Looks like he will draw some tags because he automatically has a 4 point headstart.

In NV, the resident point system for Rocky Mtn Bighorns began about 10 years before the point system for nonresidents began. NV residents with max points moved out of state and became nonresidents; they now have a 10 point headstart on the other nonresidents in the drawing. Big difference between 15 points and 5 points.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-03-09 AT 10:59PM (MST)[p]feduptwo,

Everything you're proposing is simply taking away opporunity for a majority. Theres no reason to force WY residents to choose between elk and deer LE permits.

You can argue all day, but when it comes to a PP system a majority of those 13,000+ resident hunters are going to go for the best unit or two in Wyoming when a bp/pp system is adopted. Certainly more than apply now. I assure you, that in a couple years time, people that used to apply in the less desirable LE units will not be wasting their ONE chance at a tag and burn their points on anything but the top couple LE units. Its no secret which units those are.

That will create point creep and drop your average yearly odds as well as your over-all odds of drawing a tag. Sure, in 20 years you MIGHT draw the best couple units...but I assure you that there will be resident hunters in Wyoming in 20 years...with 20 points and no tags to show for it.

Thats the problem with a point system...people get in way too deep, both monitarily and time wise, to burn them on average LE units. After waiting for 5-10-15 years...theres no sense to apply for anything but the best.

I'm sure the people you talk to whine about not drawing, I've been guilty of the same. But, when I think past my own selfishness, I realize that the best thing to do is just keep the drawing random. Its the best for all involved...from first time hunters, to young hunters, to people that just decide one year to apply for a LE unit. Everyone has the same odds...nobody has any better or worse odds than anyone else, you roll the dice. If you can top a system that is more fair to everyone than that, I'll back it. But, the bottom line is...you cant. Every system you've talked about will take opportunity from one group of hunters and give more opportunity to another...and in some cases, make it flat impossible for others.

I wont feel like I was cheated if I dont hunt LE deer in Wyoming in unit 128, 102 or any other LE unit. I wont feel cheated if I dont hunt elk in unit 100, 24, or any other unit.

Would it be nice to hunt a LE unit or two...sure, but I dont think I should be guaranteed a tag...or owed a tag, no matter how long I apply. I'll gladly toss my hat in the ring with everyone else and leave it to chance. If it happens...great...if it doesnt...oh well.

Too many think they're owed a tag, a hunt, and an animal...and that wrong headed thinking creates unfair pp systems, poaching, and a whole host of other problems.

You're owed nothing but an equal chance with everyone else every year at a LE tag...nothing more than that, period.
 
I'm a nonresident so I am already living with the point system that I am sure Wyoming residents are about to get. Because I am a nonresident, I don't really have a dog in this fight other than trying to explain the downsides to WY residents. However, it sounds like a lot of these guys don't want to hear the downsides.

Quote--"...but I'll tell you that in talking with resident sportsman in the community most agree some changes are needed."

I think the reason you are hearing so much resident support for a system is because people don't really know the ins and outs of these points systems other than it sounds fair. This post has around 70 replies trying to explain point systems and it is clear that the point system proponents still don't understand the downside, so I know the public isn't educated on the subject.

"Its our responsibility to make sure whatever changes are made are the best for the people of Wyoming."

If these WY guys are trying to be responsible and make the right changes, you should hear all the pros and cons and understand them. Instead of arguing with these guys that know how every point system in the West works, these guys should try listening and learning so they make the right choice.

"Since all of my friends from Utah have had either a premium elk tag or deer tag, or both I would say Utah's point system is working as good as can be expected. "

The reason all your friend have drawn is because they got in on the ground floor of the system, which has been explained adnausem on this post. They likely will never draw another LE tag again unless they are "too lucky" as someone mentioned on here previously.

The only thing WY has going for it with a preference point system is a low population of humans and a high population of game so hopefully point creep won't be as catastrophic as it has been on other states. Good luck.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-03-09 AT 11:26PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-03-09 AT 11:24?PM (MST)

Feduptwo...some numbers for you to ponder...

In 2005...there were 890 NR's that applied for unit 102 (40 tags available) for a reg. priced license.

In 2006...the 1st year of the point system...1624 NR's applied for unit 102 for a reg. priced license (again 40 tags available).

See any problems with a point system? For the record, how many years would it take, assuming all 1624 of those NR's keep applying for 102 for the same 40 annual tags, for all 1624 to draw a 102 tag?

Better be young and better be on the ground floor...and you better hope nobody else switches from other LE units and starts applying in 102 or you'll be waiting even longer.
 
feduptwo,
Thanks for your input and research. This has been a typical thread with alot of ideas expressed and then the folks with lots to say but can't say it without making ugly remarks about people and assumptions about what kind of hunters other guys are.
 
I too think Wyoming should be very cautious in what they do point wise. Much thought is really needed.

Here are a couple examples to which I speak.

When my son was 12 years old he and I began to apply for elk points in Colorado. We wanted to do an archery hunt in unit 201. It required 5 points at the time.

My thinking was we could draw that unit with 6 or 7 points and we could have a great hunt before he went to college and began his adult life.

This year, after 15 years of applying, and he turning 27 we are farther from drawing 201 than we were the first year we began applying for points.

Seeing the writing on the wall and because of my age (68) we switched to a lesser unit (61) and drew that unit with 14 points. Not all non resident bow applicants with 14 points were successful. In fact just a few years ago, that unit could be drawn with 6 or 7 points. I know what point creep is, believe me I do!

In Utah where I live, they began their points system in 1993. At the time my son, although I had purchased him a lifetime license when he was just a pup, could not apply for big game points, as he was not old enough. He will most likely never be able to hunt one of Utah's good limited entry elk areas. In fact in all those years, if you are a rifle hunter and want to hunt one of the premium units, you might still be waiting your turn. After 16 years many still wait for their chance. Some of have died waiting, others will and some still will have quite a number of years to wait. And that's just the first tier of point holders. The second tier of holders is larger and thus it will most likely take 25 to 30 more years just to get through the level. How many hundred years will it take to get through the 17th level? Every person reading this will be long gone before that can happen.

Is this what Wyoming hunters really want? I suggest you think hard and long before you dive into those waters. They are not nearly as calm and gentle as they seem.

Have a good one. BB
 
Buzz,
First I'm not doing anything except provoking thought. I find it funny that you say my ideas are taking away opportunity when you just got done saying how much opportunity we have in general season units. What is wrong with a better chance at a LE unit deer tag and a general elk tag or the other way around? No opportunity lost your still hunting deer and elk every year your just taking applicants out of the pool which is increasing odds. Remember two ways to increase odds: decrease applicants or increase tags.
For sake of argument look at the ten hardest LE deer units to draw for Wyoming residents. We had 8415 people put in for 820 tags with overall odds of 9.74%. Let's just assume that just 25% of these applicants would rather put in for elk tags (which is worst case scenario in a elk hunter dominated state) the odds go up to 14%. If 50% of these hunters would rather have an elk tag (which is more realistic) the odds on the ten hardest deer units in the state would go up to almost 20%. Remember you can still draw any type 4 permits. This also helps elk odds just reverse the numbers.
You go on to say in 20 years you'll have people with 20 points and no tag which is not true. Utah has already cycled through all residents with max points for deer and it took 15 years. That's with 90,000 plus people putting in for just over a 1000 tags. I do agree that with a moose/sheep style pref point system the odds get way bad the second time around and I oppose that system.
I also don't feel cheated if I don't draw a tag because it's the system we have great general hunting. In fact I'm off on a backpacking trip to scout deer in the Grey?s next weekend. I do enjoy hunting in my own backyard with the deer that we get to know, pick up horns, and see in November, and that's why I want better odds, and a more fair system. I too don't think I should ever be guaranteed a tag but I think I should have a statistically better chance than those who have had it a couple of times. I think my friend who has never drawn a LE deer or elk tag in 30 years should have a statistically better chance than my other friend who has had two under 4% elk tags, two under 10% deer tags and 3 antelope tags in 6 years. Oh by the way my lucky friend thinks the same way.
 
Remember also, that the NR are using a pref system. The same system we all agree is a bad idea. If we use a bonus points system 1 point squared doesn't give you that much better odds than 2 but 10 points squared gives you a lot better odds than the guy who is down to one. There will still be no guarantees. Look what it did for those NR that used to experience 4% draw odds in the Region G & H. Those tags which arguably are just as good as 102 got a lot easier to draw.
I would expect to see a small increase in applicants but nothing as drastic as what you saw with N Residents. especially if we can stay away from P points.
Plus I would suspect that the numbers will go way down for 102 as it has surely seen better years. Lots of money to pay to shoot a 160 buck lol
 
This post is nuts. Buzz, I think you should give up on this post. While I am not trying to be disrespectful to anyone, it is obvious that everything Buzz has been trying to explain is not sinking in with these guys. As soon Buzz shoots holes in one of their fallacies, they totally ignore it and repeat the same fallacy in the next post as if it is fact. Remember, just because you say something is fair, doesnt mean it is fair.

It has to be tunnel vision for a tag because they are droning out all logical arguments against points. I also can't believe you keep using Utah as an example for a points system because it is one of the worst out there. Also, you should stop kicking around a bonus point system because WY is going to shove a preference point system down your throat whether you like it or not. We need to archive this post because I have a feeling you guys are going to have a change of heart about points systems after you get knee deep into it.
 
Buzz is not telling the whole story when he sites his figures, 102 is the example, that area was over hunted before it was made a limited quota area, a few years after that, the quality jumped dramatically, it took a while but the word got out, and soon Carter and others started loudly promoting the area, and lo and behold the odds got real bad, it happens all over the west, points or not it doesn't matter, too many hunters, too much technology, too much information, and secure habitat for most big game is shrinking, thats the big picture. Points or no points
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-04-09 AT 09:29AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-04-09 AT 09:20?AM (MST)

piper,

The numbers are what they are...blame it on whatever you want, the point system caused the jump in applicants. I've seen the same thing in MT, CO, UT, etc.

Also, if those other things are the real problem, then how about address those instead of wasting time on unnecessary point systems?

The proponents of point systems can argue all they want, but the ONLY reason they want a point system is because they cant get the tag they want...and others have drawn more than them.

Also...me thinks some here need to retake 5th grade math and simple division...obviously long division would be WAYYYY too complicated.

90,000/1,000 does not get everyone a LE tag in 15 years...I dont care how much you try....1624/40 wont either.

If division isnt your strong suit...try multiplying...what is 1000X15 years...answerrrr...15,000. Just a few shy of 90,000...this all of course assuming that I did in fact graduate from 5th grade math.

Its unbelievable the posts you see on these boards and how people will post "facts" like the above, expecting those with more than 2 firing brain cells to believe it! How do you defend those numbers? Its complete denial of facts.

Like I said, you better be young, willing to wait 40+ years, and you will get your ONE tag, maybe.

I will archive this thread...and when you get your preference point system...it wont be a bonus point system and thats a fact...we'll see who's telling who "I told you so."

I'm willing to eat crow...but I wont be...all you have to do is look at other states for examples. WY wont be any different.
 
Buzz,

You and I have tried to show that the numbers tell the truth, to no avail. We have shown that the points will cause a surge in applicants because there will be nothing to lose and everything to gain (cheap points, OTC deer and elk tags, and online purchasing of preference points only). The points advocates are emotionally involved in the issue. You can't change their minds with mathmatical facts.

Heck, buglingbilly even shows how it works in real life to the detriment of the youger generation. He further shows how point creep and G&F regulation changes make drawing the "best" areas a statistical impossibility for those with less than max points. Yet, the same argument of "we can improve draw odds for everyone" is still being repeated.

Lance Stapleton (Hunting Report and respected western outdoor writer)has covered this issued at depth on the constant devalutaion of points systems throughout the West. I'm sure going over this would be a waste of time in repeating it.

I have been playing the point systems for the past 17 years, so I also have experiences similar to buglingbilly. The bottom line is the points advocates want "their" tag, and nothing said to the contrary will change their minds.
 
Where a bunch of you guys are making a mistake is assuming everyone wants a guranteed tag. Not the case here, a bunch of us are just wanting improved odds. As far as deer and antelope go, a lot of area's would have guaranteed tags after just a couple of seasons. Non residents are already seeing that in a lot of area's. You pull guys out of the draw for a few years who have burned their points and the odds will jump significantly. For those of you wanting a preference point system, you really, need to start writing yer legislative reps. For the first time in my life, I'll be sending some political contributions to try and get some peoples attention...
 
Buzz,

I'm focused on improving draw odds statewide not just a point system. I do believe that a bonus point style system does have some merit. But at the end of the day it does nothing to improve odds it just makes the system more fair by rewarding those have have gone longer without drawing.
REMEMBER THEIR ARE TWO WAYS TO IMPROVE ODDS: INCREASE TAGS OR DECREASE APPLICANTS.
Feel free to belittle my math skills but the fact is the max point resident group is gone in Utah for LE deer.
In attempt to confuse people you are twisting the numbers. Its actually pretty easy to explain. First there are only 64000 plus applicants for 1000 tags. (I came up with 90000 number if Utah changed their system to a random draw, like Wyoming has) Add a two year waiting period Coupled with the fact that Utah makes you pick the species you apply for and it all adds up.
Your quick to go on how these point systems dont work but I showed you a couple posts ago that without them Utah would be in a much worse situation then they actually are. There is no good ways to address 65000 people putting in for a 1000 tags.

Remember that Utah has 500% more resident applications than Wyoming, plus Wyoming issued 3 times the LE deer tags Utah did in the same year so you can't compare any other Western states. We are in a very unique situation
Ill be quick to take no system over a pref style system and will fight to ensure we don't get something that will turn out to be a bad thing like a pref system.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-04-09 AT 02:47PM (MST)[p]Feduptwo,

Fine, 64,000 with points...do that math and tell me you'll cycle through all the applicants with 1000 available tags in 15 years.

It just doesnt add up to anything less than the unluckiest waiting 64 years for a tag.

Neither does cycling through 1624 applicants with 40 tags available in 15 years...try 41 years for the unluckiest.

I'm not making numbers up or twisting anything, those are YOUR numbers from Utah and numbers I got from the WYGF website for 102.

As I've already said, you arent going to get a different system out of the WY legislature or G&F. It will be a 75-25 split preference system that you will have to be on the ground floor of to see any benefit. The random draw odds will be less than 1% and the preference odds will plummet in the top areas as well.

Its all there, black and white, crystal clear. Too bad you cant accept it.

The last thing you want to do is let the facts get in the way of your arguement. Dont take advice from people like me and some others that have been playing the bonus/point system for 10-15 years in several states.

It will all be different in Wyoming...yeah right!
 
I am invested in 5 Western states point systems and I crunch the numbers every year. Points systems aren't all that they are cracked up to be. I probably have $1,000 invested in 5 years of applications (3 years as Non-res & 2 as a Res) in NV alone and I have drawn one deer tag--hardly worth it.

I should let it go but this post is really bugging me. You guys asked for help on how to explain point systems to the Game and Fish commission, then when somebody rains on your parade and explains the downfalls of point systems, you get mad and ignore all the facts and argue.

Quote--"...a bunch of us are just wanting improved odds."

Because it is statistically impossible to improve odds for everyone, I have to assume you are referring to improving odds for yourself and the rest of your bunch, which does point to guaranteed tags--something you say we are incorrectly assuming. I guess the part about this post that is getting under my skin so much is that you guys won't just admit, "hey, I want a guaranteed tag" since you don't have any arguments that support how a point system is good for everybody--I mean everybody including grandpa who has applied for 50 years and the in-utero baby that can't apply for 12 more years. However, all you guys can say is, "my neighbor draws all the time and I draw jack, that's not fair." That is a personal problem. It is callled a lottery for a reason. Should we make a point system on Powerball too since some people spend thousands on it but some punk that only bought one ticket ends up winning it? Just admit it guys, you want your cake even if the next generation gets no cake! If you are concerned with with your neighbor drawing too much, make a waiting period. Problem solved.

Quote--"As far as deer and antelope go, a lot of area's would have guaranteed tags after just a couple of seasons. Non residents are already seeing that in a lot of area's."

One thing that you aren't considering is all the floaters out there that are only buying points and are not on the drawing odds radar. These guys will jump in the draw when the odds start looking good for them, thereby skewing the odds adversly even farther. If you guys are studying other state's systems, you would know this by looking at Colorado. Every year it appears I can't lose in the Colorado drawing based upon the draw odds and my points but guess what? Someone with more points always jumps in ahead of me out of nowhere. Your math isn't including these people. Because of floaters, the odds are even worse than you think.
 
Im invested in 5 states also, up to 17 points in one, I drew an Antelope tag in my home state, same as last year, The draws got tough fast. Actually I like Colorado, The point creep is amazing on the popularized hunts, but me and my friends have drawn deer tags every few years and will again soon, its nice to know that, My wife has 14 Utah bull point and its nice to know that we will hunt there soon. like most things, there is good and bad with point systems. that being said Im against Wyoming going to a 75%-25% split, I will call someone and voice my displeasure with that, but its a tough state, regular hunters don't have much sway when it comes to the decision making process.
 
>I should let it go but
>this post is really bugging
>me. You guys asked
>for help on how to
>explain point systems to the
>Game and Fish commission, then
>when somebody rains on your
>parade and explains the downfalls
>of point systems, you get
>mad and ignore all the
>facts and argue.
>

Actually feduptwo is primarily concerned with the Wyoming legislature. The Wyoming G & F has plenty of statistical experts who understand preference points and are quite aware of what other states are doing. In fact, many of the folks I've talked to at the G & F support resident preference points. As yer probably aware the G & F has absolutely nothing to do with creating a preference point system and they cannot legally lobby for a preference point system. Any change in the current system will be done by our WY legislature. Fortunately for us, they're usually more receptive to their constituents and us residents than non-rezi's like you, which pretty much makes your input worthless...
 
I was fully convinced prior to this "discussion" that I would not support a preference or bonus point system for Wyoming residents, and nothing that anyone has said has disuaded me from that opinion.

Although I haven't always agreed with Buzz, his arguments and logic, along w/ HillBilly and some of the others, do a great job of cementing the arguement against point systems. I will also be contacting my legislature and members of the legislative JTTRC and the WGFD commision and voicing my opinions to continue the random draw.

Fedup, although I don't agree with your opinions on the matter, it's good that you brought it up so we're not sideswiped without a heads-up.
 
You're right BB, that's why many of us residents that don't want a preference point system will contact our reps as well.

It looked to me like he was just trying to present some facts and that some people don't want to hear them. I looked at his input as worth quite a bit...
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-05-09 AT 09:22PM (MST)[p]SouthernWyo,

Thanks for the support. We were just trying to play devils advocate and show the downfalls (and there are many) to a preference point system based upon the track record of every other Western point system. If I were a resident in this situation, I would want to hear the other side of the argument from people with experience on the topic. I am glad to see someone is keeping an open mind and trying to make the most logical decison for everyone. I still believe random draw with waiting periods is the best way to go.

Triple_BB,

"Fortunately for us, they're usually more receptive to their constituents and us residents than non-rezi's like you, which pretty much makes your input worthless..."

Well, you are right about one thing, my input is worhtless with the state of Wyoming. I never said my input mattered for anything with the Wyoming government and it shouldn't since I am not a resident. Further, I don't have a vested interest in this issue one way or the other which should lend more credibility to my arguments against a point system. I was hoping Fedup and a few others would see the light and learn from other state's mistakes. If you read the first post, Fedup definitely asked us for our input. I am sorry that you didn't like we had to say and couldn't present good arguments for a point system.

You can split hairs all you want on who Fedup is trying to persuade with the statistics (legislature v. G&F) but he clearly said he wanted to show the spreadsheets to the G&F as set forth below:

Quote by Fedup--Post #1--"What we want is a spreadsheet that we can show legislators, G&F Commissioners and whoever wants to see, what preference points and bonus points would do to improve odds."

If Fedup is lobbying the wrong group, maybe you should talk to Fedup so that he is directing his efforts in the right direction. Since you went on the offensive against me on no other basis than my posts against a point system, it is clear that you are a supporter of a point system. You are clearly offended by our reality check also.

"In fact, many of the folks I've talked to at the G & F support resident preference points."

The reason G&F supports a point system is called cold hard cash. There is no better revenue stream invented yet for a wildlife agency than a point system.

As Buzz said, the math doesn't lie. There is plenty of other point systems out there to study if you are really concerned with making the right decision for everyone. One thing that is clear to me is that the supporters in this post have done zero homework on this issue and are emotionally invested--which are 2 recipes for disaster.

I also think it is dishonest if you put on a presentation to the Legislature (or G&F) and don't also show the downside to a point system. If your audience does their homework and question you on the same issues Buzz, Dwalton and I have discussed, you guys are going to end up with egg on your face. take it from someone with experince, politicians love to make people look like morons in public meetings.

Triple_BB, after you draw your one tag deer and elk tag (if you live long enough to make it to the end of the point heap), I hope you take your children and grandchildren to enjoy it because the system you are supporting will most likely prevent them from ever drawing their own tag short of Powerball type luck.

We tried to lead these horses to water but we can't make them drink. I can see it is futile to make some of you see the other side so this is my last post on the issue. You are free to take all the free shots at me you that want. Good luck Wyoming.
 

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