Modfied 4-Point or Better for Utah

[Daxter]

I posted this idea on the general hunting forum, but wanted to get some input from this forum too.

What if we changed some general deer hunt areas to 4-point or better, unless you are 18 or under, or if it is your fist deer tag in the state. I think this might provide some of the benefits of point restrictions and let us avoid some of the common problems also associated with point restrictions. This idea would still let youth hunters and new hunters have a good opportunity to harvest a buck. Point restrictions would save some bucks (maybe not a lot of bucks, but some). It would increase the age class on bucks, without letting the genetically inferior old 2 and 3 points to do all the breeding (youth hunters could shoot these old 2 and 3 pointers). One of the other perceived problems with point restrictions is that people shoot deer that are too small and leave them. I know it is not legal and I do not want to promote party hunting, but maybe some of these illegally shot deer would be tagged by people with tags to harvest them legally instead of leaving them to rot. (Can two wrongs make a right?) I know that this isn't a solution to declining deer populations, but I think it could provide a slight increase in number of bucks, and the quality of bucks available. It might increase the quality of the hunting opportunity for deer on general units. Meat hunters can always buy a spike or cow elk tag (we need to give more elk tags anyways). Let me know what you think.



Dax

 

[Deerlove]

I like it, but in Utah it will NEVER work. I turned in a couple of poachers in Id in a 4 pt or better area. They left a big two pt dead on the mtn. To many people shoot at any buck in Utah.

 

[crimedog]

I remember years ago that the Fish Lake area in Utah was 3 pt or better for a few years and it greatly increased the deer heard in that area. Though I dont' mind shooting a 2 pt for meat I would love to see more areas be 3 pt or better

 

[ktg]

Good idea for the youth hunters. This would be the only way I would support a point restriction on deer. Plain old point restrictions are a no-go.

 

[MULEYFANATIC]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-15-05 AT 01:25PM (MST)[p]WHY DONT SOME OF US UNDERSTAND THAT IF WE HAVE A POINT RESTRICTION THAT WE'D ALL BE HUNTING THE SAME DEER!!! I'VE TALKED TO PEOPLE THAT HUNTED BACK WHEN IT WAS THREE POINT OR BETTER AND THEY SAID THAT YA THERE WAS AN OLDER AGE CLASS OF DEER, BUT THERE WERE NEXT TO NO MONSTER BUCKS LIKE WE ARE ABLE TO HARVEST WITH THE CURRENT REGULATIONS. IF YOU WANT BIGGER BUCKS THEN RAISE THE OUT OF STATE LICENSE FEES(PEOPLE FROM OUT OF STATE WILL PAY THE EXTRA MONEY BELIEVE ME)!!! AND CUT THE TAGS IN HALF. OTHER STATES HAVE GREAT SUCESS WITH THESE STRATAGIES. ALSO IF THERE ARE MORE DEER MAKING IT THROUGH THE SEASON(BECAUSE THERE ARENT 97,000 HUNTERS TRYING TO PUT THERE TAG ON THEM)THEN THE AGE CLASS, QUALITY, AND NUMBERS ALL GO UP!!!

 

[_droptine_]

Speaking as an ex-Utah resident, I surely won't pay more as an out-of-stater to hunt Utah. That kind of plan only works if there is a draw to get people there in the first place. Are there lots of opportunities to see and attempt to harvest quality bucks in Utah right now? The answer to that lies in the eye of the beholder.

To a lot of people if you had to choose between hunting out of state in Colorado or Utah, most would pick Colorado I think because the perception is there that you will have a better opportunity at a big buck.

I know there are some nice bucks waiting to be hunted in Utah, but I am having a hard time finding the draw to go back, because of the insane (in my opinion) numbers of people afield for the numbers of deer that there are. To me, the current fee as an out-of-stater is almost to much to justify hunting there now as it is.

As for point restrictions, how about having a rotating schedule? 5 years with point restrictions, then 5 years without? Then an analysis of which increased herd size and age class of bucks could be done.

 

[tylercreek2]

calif tried that in the north eastern part of the state quite a few years ago , was 3 point or better ,,, they have since dropped it back to fork or better ,,, back in the 3 pts time you did see more larger mature deer ,,, but as they were the legal deer most of the ones you saw were already hanging ,,, yes there were more of the older age class bucks but they seemed to get shot out every year, to be replaced by the forks that were allowed to grow another year, which one assumes is the logic behind the 3 pt or better rule ,,,, with that being said the longer these rules were in place it seemed like the less 3 pts there were ,,, did other factors contribute to the decline ? am sure they did , ie weather , critters , drought ect ect ,,, what it seemed like was happening was that after a few years of the 3 pt or better being in place , you saw more and more forky's ,,, reason being because as soon as a critter got 3 pts he got popped ? was just my own personal observation and not backed up by actual facts field data ect ect ? has been quite a few years since the area went back to fork's or better ,,, and now you see less fork's than you did when was 3 pt or better ,,, i dont profess to have any of the right answers to any of this stuff but not sure any one answer does or doesnt work by itself ,,, good post dude i know as a kid back in the day of 3 pt or better i put my scope on 17 fork's one morning anywhere from little bitty to one we guessed pushed upper 20"s high an wide thats hard on a 15 year old kid lol so mebbe my opinion is skewed huh ?

 

[muleyguy]

your idea has merit, but the problem with point restrictions is that they really just shift the harvest from 1.5 yr old deer to 2.5 yr old deer, and can actually cause fewer mature bucks because it forces people who might otherwise shoot a spike or 2 point to stay in the field longer. Point restrictions are best when used only in a short term situation where the buck to doe ratio's have crashed. It has been my experience that mature bucks are actually fewer and farther between in point restriction units.

a better way to go would be for units to be draw only for adults (18+) and 2 point or less for hunters under 18. This way, kids would still get to hunt and the harvest should be small enough to be neglible on the overall herd. At some point in the future, all mule deer hunting in the west will be draw only. There is simply too much pressure on the resource moving forward. Nobody wants to look at the real problem; Hunters will fight draw only tooth and nail; biologists have their heads in the sand also, all they can talk about is habitat, but it is funny when you can go to areas all over the west were the habitat is in perfect shape, and yet there are still few mule deer and no mature bucks. Or, you can look at a BLM tract of land next to a private piece of land, all that separates the two is a fence, and there are all kinds of mule deer on the private and none on the public. So, the habitat issue is a big ruse (not to say it isn't important) . Environmentalis want the wolves and grizzlies back everywhere and the game and fish departments are scared silly to conduct any coyote control programs.

So, everybody wants a piece of the mule deer; hunters want to have open seasons with few restrictions; the coyotes, wolves and grizzlies are taking there piece, and so on and so on. The only real solution is to stop killing so many deer, and that means restrictions on us hunters and aggressive controls on predator management.

 

[BrianID]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-17-05 AT 01:59PM (MST)[p]Daxter,

I already posted this under your other thread but thought it wouldn't hurt to post it hear as well.

One of the areas that I spend a lot of time hunting and scouting just finished its second year of having a 4 point rule. One of the Idaho units (unit 73) with the 4 point rule boarders Utah by I-15. It would be a good place to research how well it has worked.

The F&G have put a lot of time and money into researching unit 73 the last 5 for fawn survival, predator control, buck/doe ratios and total numbers. The Idaho F&G have mandatory report cards for every hunter that buys a deer tag. They have been putting collars on fawns every year to see what is killing all of the fawns. They have also been trapping and shooting coyotes from the air in part of unit 73 to see how that affects fawn mortality. Drastically changing lion quotas to see the affects on deer. Increasing cow elk hunting opportunities to decrease competition of deer and elk for prime deer habitat. Counting deer and buck/doe ratios in two winter ranges in the unit. Changing the hunting season data as well as restricting legal bucks to 2 points only or 4 points only.

I could give you some numbers and much more info but don't have time right now. For the most part I think a 4 point rule is a good short term plan. IMHO mild winters and deer with plenty of fat going into the winter will do more for future number of mature bucks than establishing a 4 point rule. IMO the best management rule the Idaho F&G have put in place in these four point units is restricting hunters so they can only drive there 4 wheelers on roads open to the travel of a full sized truck.
If you would like I could help finding some of the data the Idaho F&G has on these four point units

 

[shedmania]

i hunted the book cliffs back when it was 4pt or better and let me tell you the way I saw it. when it was 4pt or better in a camp of peole with 7 tags every tag was filled with nothing smaller then a 4.5 year old deer. and they were all nice bucks. the year after they quit 4pt or better the deer were hammered. the next year there were no deer. they had to shut this particular area down. my experience is that 4pt or better works. i think that we should try it in an area like the southeast where it is already a 5 day hunt and the main potion of bucks are just little spikes and 2 pts. i think that if you give it a chance for a few years we will either see results or we wont but something needs to happen because just the 5 day hunt is not enough.

 

[Daxter]

Thanks to everyone for your feedback. I appreciate you sharing your ideas. I will try to find more information on how point restrictions have worked in Idaho. Thanks again.
Dax