Mule Deer Proposal

[elkassassin]

One More Thing Nilly!

You Might Check With Ms Blackwolf Here On MM!

She's About The Only Female I Know Of That Checks In To MM Once In A While!

Maybe She'd Be Interested In Your Pics!

 

[Vanilla]

There is only one (and sometimes a second) man so obsessed with me that they need pics.

Every once in a while JakeH decides he wants to have irrational circular arguments, but he’s usually just a normal dude that likes to discuss stuff on this forum. It cycles though where he feels like he needs to just argue silly things, like yesterday. He’ll move out of it. (I’ll wait for him to explain where LL holders demand more added to benefit themselves every year…see? Silly!)

You, on the other hand, are just obsessed. I live rent free in your dome 24/7. I have tried to get you to stop. It’s not healthy for you. But I’m powerless to make it stop. Keep typing my name and shouting it out in the night bessy! It’s sick and twisted, but it’s you. Be you, little buddy!

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Nilly!

I've Posted Some STUPID SSHHITT In My Day But You've Got Me Beat By A Long Shot With Your NUDIES You Keep Offering/Threatening To Send!

Do Us All A Favor & Keep Them For Your Own Viewing!

That Way If You Forget About How GREAT You Are You Can View Them Again To Refresh Your Own Memory!

There is only one (and sometimes a second) man so obsessed with me that they need pics.

Every once in a while JakeH decides he wants to have irrational circular arguments, but he’s usually just a normal dude that likes to discuss stuff on this forum. It cycles though where he feels like he needs to just argue silly things, like yesterday. He’ll move out of it. (I’ll wait for him to explain where LL holders demand more added to benefit themselves every year…see? Silly!)

You, on the other hand, are just obsessed. I live rent free in your dome 24/7. I have tried to get you to stop. It’s not healthy for you. But I’m powerless to make it stop. Keep typing my name and shouting it out in the night bessy! It’s sick and twisted, but it’s you. Be you, little buddy!

 

[ridgetops]

Good to see Bessy comes back and immediately posts. three times to himself talking about me. I’m glad some things never change.

I can only imagine how bad he’s been chomping at the bit! I guess those pics didn’t hold him over well enough…



Try it! Shoot your shot at the next RAC meeting. Let us know what you’re told by the Division and its legal counsel.

Why RAC? He should go straight to the wildlife board!

 

[Vanilla]

Why RAC? He should go straight to the wildlife board!

Because he’s a RAC member and can make the motion.

 

[elkassassin]

HINT:

The WB Is Gonna Do What They Want!

 

[Elkslayer2015]

LL license holders is the least of our problems to be clear there not the problem at all in my eyes.
Archery has become a very popular hunt and its growing fast.

As far as for Archery deer.
I would be on board with splitting up the Archery deer hunt but the harvest success wont change on the first hunt.
But the second hunt I think you will see a lower success rate. I am not in favor for adding archery rut hunt.
The pressure is already there with extended archery hunters I see it out here in the basin and on the Wasatch.

As far as archery elk goes, well here is where I piss the rifle hunters off.
They took tags away and put them on the Mid season hunt and the late season for a reason.
They made it tougher so they could issue more tags, yes they issued a lot more tags by dropping the age class down, But if they would of added them to the early rifle hunt we would of had a big problem.
They also shortened the days on the early hunt for a reason.

The early LE early rifle hunt should of never been a thing.

If we are going to continue this hunt it needs to be a restricted weapons hunt or this hunt needs to move to the first week in October.( That is your only option) give them 7 days to hunt instead of 5.
I have said this time and time again if you want more tags issued you need to make the hunt harder.

That's why I would love to see the LE archery Elk and Deer run threw the whole month of September. Making the hunt harder is key too add more tags.

Then put the LE Muzzleloader Elk and Deer for 7 or 9 days during the LE archery hunts. Making the hunt harder is key too add more tags.

I think for Archery Gs deer we could split this hunt up.

First Archery Deer for 14 days.

Then the youth rifle for 7 days.

Then run the second Archery Deer and Muzzloader Deer with the same dates. Stop this hunt the day before the GS rifle elk hunt. Making the hunt harder is key too add more tags.

If you have obtained a archery elk tag you get to hunt both hunts for elk.

Making the hunt harder has definitely proved its self especially on the mid season rifle elk hunt.

 

[deadibob]

Im a lifetime license holder and at first glance it works for me.

So as a lifetime license permit holder you are fine with not getting a bonus point if you don’t draw the way everyone else would receive one. Maybe I misread it but with option A you won’t be acquiring bonus points if you have a LL.

 

[pushin_30]

Something definitely needs to change!! This write up is a great start to that process.
I’m all for waiting periods as well, even on a general season tag.
Youth opportunities are a must. A youth should be GUARANTEED a tag ever other year of their 12-17 years. IMO this should be a no brainer. I know current youth that have gone 3+ years and can not draw a tag. I understand there are units that can be drawn every year and there are units that take 4-5 points. But they should be able to hunt units close to where they reside.
No matter what this will always be a tough situation but something has got to change or we won’t have **** to even hunt in 20 years

 

[Bux n Dux]

Something definitely needs to change!! This write up is a great start to that process.
I’m all for waiting periods as well, even on a general season tag.
Youth opportunities are a must. A youth should be GUARANTEED a tag ever other year of their 12-17 years. IMO this should be a no brainer. I know current youth that have gone 3+ years and can not draw a tag. I understand there are units that can be drawn every year and there are units that take 4-5 points. But they should be able to hunt units close to where they reside.
No matter what this will always be a tough situation but something has got to change or we won’t have **** to even hunt in 20 years

They are GUARANTEED an OTC archery deer tag for the unit of their choosing if they don’t draw in the regular draw. And last I looked, you can draw a very large majority of the youth rifle tags for 0-1 points. Muzzleloader is almost 100% with no points. Archery is guaranteed. I don’t feel bad for youth with general deer points, it’s the parent or guardians fault for their child not hunting deer and building points. Not mine or anyone else’s.

Again, like I’ve said numerous times before. The state has bent over backwards for youth in the last 10 years. They get far more opportunities than they had available when I was a youth. If your kid isn’t hunting every weekend from august until January, that’s your fault. Not the systems. Not the states. Not anyone else’s. Have the parent go look in the mirror and point at who is staring back at them. That’s who is to blame.

 

[Dangbig]

I still like the proposal that was brought up last year.

You have to pick your weapon. You will be stuck with this weapon for 3 years.

Every resident gets a tag starting out.

We run it on a 3 year deal. This is how it will work.

if you harvest on your first year you will not get another tag for 3 years.

If you harvest on your second year you will not get another tag for 3 years.

If you harvest on your 3rd year you will not get another tag for 3 years.

On average it takes 3 years to draw a tag anyways.

I know this sounds like it will be over crowded. You’re right it will be the first year. But I think you will see after the first year 25% of the hunter will have filled there tags , so the next year it will be less crowded and continue too be less on the 3rd year.

No more GS deer points.

Ya I think this would be terrible, you think people are going to tell if they shoot a deer and give up another year
Then go 3 years without a tag how will this help the deer herd? I generally don’t shoot a deer but I sure as hell like going I guess that makes me a opportunist so be it

 

[Provoriver]

The committee received this proposal along with 100 others. This proposal is nothing special compared to other ideas. The proposal is not what I would like to see happen.
Deer need less seasons and less pressure, not more. The more opening days that are given, the more pressure the deer will receive. The crowding argument is foolish.
Late archery hunts benefit archers. The special interests need to stop.
Lifetime general season deer licenses should go away just as general season deer hunting has gone away. Lifetime licenses are still good for other hunting and fishing. Change the category to not use the word general and there is no qualifying license.
They should make some units restricted weapons.
They should focus on migration corridors, high elevation habitat, road crossings and other topics that might help mule deer.
All they realistically can do is suggest hunting strategies and we have enough of those already.

 

[Muley-Man]

All fine and dandy except the archery hunt during the rut! but how about we worry more about managing more deer and bigger older age bucks on some of our general units. Giving more opportunity for someone that wants to hunt but and not chase yearling bucks all over the mtn. Then talk about implementing something like this once we had deer to actually hunt!! I bet you wouldn’t have near the amount of kick back.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Dangbig!

It's OK To Be An Opportunist!

Your Type Of Opportunist Is Alot Different Than Alot Of These Others!

Can you imagine Them Making That Many Changes In One Year?

It'd Be The Biggest FusterCluck We've Seen In A Long Time & Still Nothing To Enhance Deer Numbers!

Ya I think this would be terrible, you think people are going to tell if they shoot a deer and give up another year
Then go 3 years without a tag how will this help the deer herd? I generally don’t shoot a deer but I sure as hell like going I guess that makes me a opportunist so be it

 

[Dangbig]

Hey Dangbig!

It's OK To Be An Opportunist!

Your Type Of Opportunist Is Alot Different Than Alot Of These Others!

Can you imagine Them Making That Many Changes In One Year?

It'd Be The Biggest FusterCluck We've Seen In A Long Time & Still Nothing To Enhance Deer Numbers!

Everyone is so busy trying to duck the next guy in the meantime the deer herd keeps going to ****

 

[elkassassin]

Ya!

I'm Waiting To See Nilly's GRAND PROPOSAL!

Everyone is so busy trying to duck the next guy in the meantime the deer herd keeps going to ****

 

[gundog2]

So as a lifetime license permit holder you are fine with not getting a bonus point if you don’t draw the way everyone else would receive one. Maybe I misread it but with option A you won’t be acquiring bonus points if you have a LL.

In this proposal, I believe that “everyone else” loses all points if they draw a tag. The LLs only lose points if they draw a LE tag, and they have option to gain a point if they decline the option to take their GS permit.

 

[elkassassin]

But They Can't Try & Draw An LE Tag & Still Get Their General LL Tag If They Don't Draw The LE Tag Right?

In this proposal, I believe that “everyone else” loses all points if they draw a tag. The LLs only lose points if they draw a LE tag, and they have option to gain a point if they decline the option to take their GS permit.

 

[Simpleton]

But They Can't Try & Draw An LE Tag & Still Get Their General LL Tag If They Don't Draw The LE Tag Right?

The way I read it they could apply for a LE designated hunt and if they draw, they use their points. If unsuccessful, they would be able to either elect to gain a deer point and forego their general tag, or take a general designated tag of their choosing and not gain a point. This is a lot like the process that happens currently besides the ability to get a tag and a point. Everyone would fall in the same category there. No one could ever get any deer tag and simultaneously gain deer points. If a LL chose to take a general tag they get a tag, but they can’t also gain a point. This would keep intact the contract and always have the ability to get a general tag with an LL, but not a tag and gain points. It would make this a choice for them.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

Ya I think this would be terrible, you think people are going to tell if they shoot a deer and give up another year
Then go 3 years without a tag how will this help the deer herd? I generally don’t shoot a deer but I sure as hell like going I guess that makes me a opportunist so be it

This is my proposal! You will have to send your tag back in un notched.
This is getting rid of the point pool completely. This is giving everyone an opportunity to have the ability to have a tag multiple years if they wish. That's all

 

[Elkslayer2015]

In this proposal, I believe that “everyone else” loses all points if they draw a tag. The LLs only lose points if they draw a LE tag, and they have option to gain a point if they decline the option to take their GS permit.

I must of miss read this as well. I could definitely stand behind this proposal.
I think if we are thinking of splitting up the archery.

First Archery Deer for 14 days.

Then the youth rifle elk for 7 days. in September This will give them there hunt back with no other hunters on the landscape.

But I think we could do this on LE entry as well. We could run the LE early rifle hunt at the same time as the GS youth hunt.

Then run the second Archery Deer and Elk and Muzzloader Deer at the same time, then Stop this hunt the day before the GS rifle elk hunt or the LE mid and spike hunt.

GS Muzzy Elk will still be in November, but LE Muzzy Elk will be running during the second Archery hunt

 

[UtyoteKiller]

Looking at it from an archery perspective I would say it makes things much more difficult. Instead of having a month, you now have two weeks on a general archery tag. I actually disagree with that, it is already super hard to harvest a deer with a bow, and there is not a ton of crowding on the archery hunts. I would say leave the archery alone. Anyone who thinks two weeks is a long time for an archer, has not hunted enough with a bow on a general unit. Unless you are able to dedicate the entire hunt. Most people are weekend warriors and only hunt maybe five days of the entire month

Two weeks is plenty if you are dedicated enough. I am fortunate that I have enough pto take to take off 5-9+ days to hunt, it’s all about your decisions and priorities. If most archers only hunt five days let’s just make two five day archery seasons and reduce the pressure on the herds even more.

 

[gundog2]

But They Can't Try & Draw An LE Tag & Still Get Their General LL Tag If They Don't Draw The LE Tag Right?

Yes, they can get LL tag if they fail to draw a LE tag, but they will not accrue new points if they accept the the LL tag. It does give the LLs an advantage over “everyone else”, but it seems like a reasonable compromise to me. Just for the record, I am not a LL person and I think the LL system was basically a scam in its conception, but a deal is a deal.

 

[Robiland]

Why do we have to keep making changes to the deer hunts/seasons? Go back to 3 main hunts. Archery as it always has been. Muzzy as it has ALMOST ALWAYS been. And 1 rifle season as it has always been. End of story!!!! Now, figure out how to grow the deer herd.

I feel like elkass right now with the caps, but I am not yelling at the computer screen. LOL!!!!

But we all know all these dumb changes and ideas and season will not help grow our deer herds. GET BACK TO GROWING THE DEER HERDS and then, maybe then, make some changes. But I WOULD STILL BE AGAINST ANY CHANGES since it will not grow the herds!

 

[Elkrunning-Scared]

I must of miss read this as well. I could definitely stand behind this proposal.
I think if we are thinking of splitting up the archery.

First Archery Deer for 14 days.

Then the youth rifle elk for 7 days. in September This will give them there hunt back with no other hunters on the landscape.

But I think we could do this on LE entry as well. We could run the LE early rifle hunt at the same time as the GS youth hunt.

Then run the second Archery Deer and Elk and Muzzloader Deer at the same time, then Stop this hunt the day before the GS rifle elk hunt or the LE mid and spike hunt.

GS Muzzy Elk will still be in November, but LE Muzzy Elk will be running during the second Archery hunt

I don’t see anything wrong with this at all. Would the early archery hunt on GS be unlimited?
I would think you would have to limit the second GS season archery because that would be a very popular hunt for archery hunters.

The ones that would have a problem with this is the muzzy deer hunters and the LE Elk hunters. This definitely would make it a tougher hunt for them with a archery hunt going on at the same time.

But this does fix a few thing.

The youth will have their hunt back.

The early LE rifle hunters get their 7 days back.

The archery hunters get the rut if they choose to apply.

 

[elkassassin]

You're starting To Catch On Robi!

It Doesn't Look Like Anybody Wants To Do Anything To Grow Deer Numbers!

Hardly Anybody Wants To Accept The Facts Though!

Let's Keep Hunting Them To Death!

We've Got 'SMART GUYS' On Here That Continually BITTCCH About Tags Being Cut When In FACT There's Nothing Being Done To Grow More Deer Numbers!

I'd Bet Your Leg Is Gonna Be Feeling Better By Deer Season!

Good Luck On Healing Back Up!

Why do we have to keep making changes to the deer hunts/seasons? Go back to 3 main hunts. Archery as it always has been. Muzzy as it has ALMOST ALWAYS been. And 1 rifle season as it has always been. End of story!!!! Now, figure out how to grow the deer herd.

I feel like elkass right now with the caps, but I am not yelling at the computer screen. LOL!!!!

But we all know all these dumb changes and ideas and season will not help grow our deer herds. GET BACK TO GROWING THE DEER HERDS and then, maybe then, make some changes. But I WOULD STILL BE AGAINST ANY CHANGES since it will not grow the herds!

 

[gundog2]

Why do we have to keep making changes to the deer hunts/seasons? Go back to 3 main hunts. Archery as it always has been. Muzzy as it has ALMOST ALWAYS been. And 1 rifle season as it has always been. End of story!!!! Now, figure out how to grow the deer herd.

I feel like elkass right now with the caps, but I am not yelling at the computer screen. LOL!!!!

But we all know all these dumb changes and ideas and season will not help grow our deer herds. GET BACK TO GROWING THE DEER HERDS and then, maybe then, make some changes. But I WOULD STILL BE AGAINST ANY CHANGES since it will not grow the herds!

The proposal outlined in the OP has two parts.

The first part involves the way that deer tags are allocated. It has potential to address point creep, which is a real problem imo.

The second part involves the deer hunting seasons. I agree with you that this is a bunch of BS. Seems like UT tries to manipulated hunting opportunities every two years, but you are right that this doesn’t really solve any real problems. Mostly, it is just a way for some people to get what they want (like an archery hunt in the rut). It is disappointing to me that these people are still trying to manipulate the hunt seasons.

 

[Simpleton]

I must of miss read this as well. I could definitely stand behind this proposal.
I think if we are thinking of splitting up the archery.

First Archery Deer for 14 days.

Then the youth rifle elk for 7 days. in September This will give them there hunt back with no other hunters on the landscape.

But I think we could do this on LE entry as well. We could run the LE early rifle hunt at the same time as the GS youth hunt.

Then run the second Archery Deer and Elk and Muzzloader Deer at the same time, then Stop this hunt the day before the GS rifle elk hunt or the LE mid and spike hunt.

GS Muzzy Elk will still be in November, but LE Muzzy Elk will be running during the second Archery hunt

I'm not saying your idea doesn't have sense behind it. But the elk plan is all but set in stone for the next 10 years since they put it in place just last year. They are only looking at the deer plan currently.

 

[Robiland]

The proposal outlined in the OP has two parts.

The first part involves the way that deer tags are allocated. It has potential to address point creep, which is a real problem imo.

The second part involves the deer hunting seasons. I agree with you that this is a bunch of BS. Seems like UT tries to manipulated hunting opportunities every two years, but you are right that this doesn’t really solve any real problems. Mostly, it is just a way for some people to get what they want (like an archery hunt in the rut). It is disappointing to me that these people are still trying to manipulate the hunt seasons.

I agree. Point creep is a problem, but mostly since we have cut the number of tags available for GS by 70% and even though we have added more LE units, the #'s are not growing at all. For example, the Henries. That unit with the limited # of tags should have deer all over the place and have to give more and more tags to manage the herd, but its just the opposite. It keeps cutting tags since the herd isnt growing and people are mad there is not 200" bucks running around all over behind every tree.
I really do feel we could double the amount of tags on lots of units if we could keep the does and fawns alive. Figure that out, and we can produce the # of tags needed to keep point creep at a minimum. Just my opnion.

But, how to grow the herd the Billion $$$ question.

 

[FILO]

Something definitely needs to change!! This write up is a great start to that process.
I’m all for waiting periods as well, even on a general season tag.
Youth opportunities are a must. A youth should be GUARANTEED a tag ever other year of their 12-17 years. IMO this should be a no brainer. I know current youth that have gone 3+ years and can not draw a tag. I understand there are units that can be drawn every year and there are units that take 4-5 points. But they should be able to hunt units close to where they reside.
No matter what this will always be a tough situation but something has got to change or we won’t have **** to even hunt in 20 years

Agree, the high point holders here don't understand staying with the current system isnt working. 10 years from now top tier units will be 30+ pts to be guaranteed.

the way i see this working you have more chances at top tier units over the course of time. not to mention less pressure across OTC units. Utah is already one of the hardest to draw in the west. DO SOMETHING!

 

[Elkrunning-Scared]

I'm not saying your idea doesn't have sense behind it. But the elk plan is all but set in stone for the next 10 years since they put it in place just last year. They are only looking at the deer plan currently.

The elk plan is set in stone. but the season dates are not.
All we would be doing is splitting up archery and moving it is all to the muzzleloader deer and elk.
Now would be a great time to do so because if we’re talking splitting up archery deer.
They can easily do this if they want too. Just a thought.

 

[ridgetops]

Why do we have to keep making changes to the deer hunts/seasons? Go back to 3 main hunts. Archery as it always has been. Muzzy as it has ALMOST ALWAYS been. And 1 rifle season as it has always been. End of story!!!! Now, figure out how to grow the deer herd.

I feel like elkass right now with the caps, but I am not yelling at the computer screen. LOL!!!!

But we all know all these dumb changes and ideas and season will not help grow our deer herds. GET BACK TO GROWING THE DEER HERDS and then, maybe then, make some changes. But I WOULD STILL BE AGAINST ANY CHANGES since it will not grow the herds!

Here's we go AGAIN, confusing hunter management with deer management. This thread is about hunter management and nothing to do with growing more deer through deer herd management.

 

[elkhunter81]

I really do feel we could double the amount of tags on lots of units if we could keep the does and fawns alive. Figure that out, and we can produce the # of tags needed to keep point creep at a minimum. Just my opnion.

But, how to grow the herd the Billion $$$ question.

I can only imagine the amount of capital letters in a post coming your way.

 

[elkassassin]

EASY NOW!

YES RIDGE!

WE KNOW WHAT THE THREAD IS ABOUT!

ANYBODY REMEMBER NEARLY 3 DECADES AGO WHEN I SAID THAT THE POINTS SYSTEM THAT WAS DREMPT UP WOULD'NT WORK?

I SAID: YOU'LL THINK IT'S WORKING FOR A FEW YEARS!

I ALSO SAID: WHAT YOU GONNA DO WHEN WE GET DOWN THE ROAD ABOUT 25 YEARS?

WELL!

HERE THE HELL WE ARE!

HOW'S THAT WORKING OUT FOR YOU JUST ABOUT NOW?

HOW'S THAT ELKHUNTER81?

 

[ridgetops]

EASY NOW!

YES RIDGE!

WE KNOW WHAT THE THREAD IS ABOUT!

ANYBODY REMEMBER NEARLY 3 DECADES AGO WHEN I SAID THAT THE POINTS SYSTEM THAT WAS DREMPT UP WOULD'NT WORK?

I SAID: YOU'LL THINK IT'S WORKING FOR A FEW YEARS!

I ALSO SAID: WHAT YOU GONNA DO WHEN WE GET DOWN THE ROAD ABOUT 25 YEARS?

WELL!

HERE THE HELL WE ARE!

HOW'S THAT WORKING OUT FOR YOU JUST ABOUT NOW?

HOW'S THAT ELKHUNTER81?

I don't mind it the way it is. It seems like a fare way to do it. I've had no problem getting a deer tag every single year since the early 80s.

 

[Robiland]

Here's we go AGAIN, confusing hunter management with deer management. This thread is about hunter management and nothing to do with growing more deer through deer herd management.

Exactly. Growing more deer will help with hunter management. But, also, we do we have to keep changing the seasons, adding, subtracting, moving and trying to please certain groups all the time. And to be upfront, I am a bow hunter. I would love to be hunting deer in November on my general unit of choice, but is that the best thing for the deer? To continue to hunt deer from Aug to end of Nov and with all the elk hunts into January, is that whats best for the deer? NO!!! So these kind of do go hand in hand. We dont need 5 different season to hunt deer. Keep it at 3. Everyone now days wants their pie and cake and ice cream all at the same time. Not possible. Is it crowded? Depends on how you look at it. I remember buying my deer tag at Gunnies in Orem the day before the hunt started. 200,000 plus tags. We survived!!!!

 

[Elkslayer2015]

I would think you would have to limit the second GS season archery because that would be a very popular hunt for archery hunters.

Unfortunaly it would be unlimited for resident only though. The 10 year elk plan is set.

The ones that would have a problem with this is the muzzy deer hunters and the LE Elk hunters. This definitely would make it a tougher hunt for them with a archery hunt going on at the same time.

Your probably right Muzzy hunters wouldn't like this at all. But its not supposed to be easy. just like Robiland just stated we survived with 200,000 permits and over crowding back then.

But this does fix a few thing.

The youth will have their hunt back.

The early LE rifle hunters get their 7 days back.

The archery hunters get the rut if they choose to apply.

Yes. this just fixed 3 thing everyone has been complaining about.

 

[Elkslayer2015]

For the record I totally disagree on Having Archery rut deer hunt.

 

[Shadow]

No to the November archery. Give the poor damn deer a break! Those who want an archery rut hunt can tuck their ears in their hat and head for the Wasatch front.

 

[Betterluckythangood]

Please, please don’t change the season dates!!! I am begging you!!!

The only thing that should be under consideration is combining points and making the extended archery a separate hunt that costs points to draw. Option A for LL sounds reasonable.

 

[elkassassin]

Still Waiting For A Proposal From The SMART GUY?

 

[3blade]

But we all know all these dumb changes and ideas and season will not help grow our deer herds. GET BACK TO GROWING THE DEER HERDS and then, maybe then, make some changes. But I WOULD STILL BE AGAINST ANY CHANGES since it will not grow the herds!

I'm originally from Nevada which typically has a deer herd state wide of around 110,000 deer, the reason being the lack of quality habitat. I remember back in the mid 80's we had like 4 or 5 years in a row that were really wet which of course resulted in more suitable habitat. The deer herd exploded, almost doubled in size. Comparing to previous years it was like there were deer behind every tree. After those wet years the herd declined and eventually ended up back to the norm of 110,000. The point is, playing around with seasons will not grow deer herds! Habitat does! We can't control the weather but we sure can do habitat improvement projects, like thinning out the water sucking pinion pines so browse plants can grow.... more browse for deer to eat equals more deer!

 

[deadibob]

Yes, they can get LL tag if they fail to draw a LE tag, but they will not accrue new points if they accept the the LL tag. It does give the LLs an advantage over “everyone else”, but it seems like a reasonable compromise to me. Just for the record, I am not a LL person and I think the LL system was basically a scam in its conception, but a deal is a deal.

In what way was the selling of lifetime licenses a scam? The DWR were the ones who came up with it. They were available starting 1984 and only sold 1,300 of them between then and 1993. I never knew they were even an option until there were a bunch of articles written that they were going to discontinue them. Before that I think most folks weren't even aware of them.

 

[gundog2]

In what way was the selling of lifetime licenses a scam? The DWR were the ones who came up with it. They were available starting 1984 and only sold 1,300 of them between then and 1993. I never knew they were even an option until there were a bunch of articles written that they were going to discontinue them. Before that I think most folks weren't even aware of them.

The DWR folks are just people. I presume many of them are hunters. I think people often come up with ideas that serve themselves over the interest of others. This is one of those ideas. Did they do this intentionally? Maybe not, but they did not go out of their way to think about downstream consequences? They sold something that they did not really have (i.e. OTC deer permits in 2024). They made obligations that they couldn’t really fulfill without causing problems it the future. This was an idea that served themselves well, but they took a crap on future hunters. Preference points systems for OIL species is another good example of this phenomenon. These PP systems served the people that created them, but it was at the expense of new hunters coming into the system in the future. It is hard for me to give these people a pass for implementing PP systems for species where the number of hunters swamps the number of available permits and it is hard to erase the problems that this created. I little bit of forethought would tell you that some of these ideas were flawed at the beginning.

 

[elkhunterUT]

The DWR folks are just people. I presume many of them are hunters. I think people often come up with ideas that serve themselves over the interest of others. This is one of those ideas. Did they do this intentionally? Maybe not, but they did not go out of their way to think about downstream consequences? They sold something that they did not really have (i.e. OTC deer permits in 2024). They made obligations that they couldn’t really fulfill without causing problems it the future. This was an idea that served themselves well, but they took a crap on future hunters. Preference points systems for OIL species is another good example of this phenomenon. These PP systems served the people that created them, but it was at the expense of new hunters coming into the system in the future. It is hard for me to give these people a pass for implementing PP systems for species where the number of hunters swamps the number of available permits and it is hard to erase the problems that this created. I little bit of forethought would tell you that some of these ideas were flawed at the beginning.

I'm genuinely curious in understanding your thoughts on the best approach or system to manage "species where the number of hunters swamps the number of available permits"?

 

[gundog2]

I'm genuinely curious in understanding your thoughts on the best approach or system to manage "species where the number of hunters swamps the number of available permits"?

Random is probably best, but bonus points or bonus points squared is defensible. Utah’s 50:50 PP/BP has some merit, but the long-term outlook for the PP permits is bleak. Eventually PP permits will be reserved for people that live the longest. It doesn’t really make sense to have a system where tags are reserved for people that are near the end of their life, imo.

 

[elkhunterUT]

Random is probably best, but bonus points or bonus points squared is defensible. Utah’s 50:50 PP/BP has some merit, but the long-term outlook for the PP permits is bleak. Eventually PP permits will be reserved for people that live the longest. It doesn’t really make sense to have a system where tags are reserved for people that are near the end of their life, imo.

Thanks - I agree with you that Preference Point systems are the worst by far.

I am not sure how I feel about the all random approach - has some merit for sure.

I do think Utah's 50:50 BP/Random approach for LE/OIL is the best compromise of all the systems out there currently.

 

[Rodeo]

They are GUARANTEED an OTC archery deer tag for the unit of their choosing if they don’t draw in the regular draw. And last I looked, you can draw a very large majority of the youth rifle tags for 0-1 points. Muzzleloader is almost 100% with no points. Archery is guaranteed. I don’t feel bad for youth with general deer points, it’s the parent or guardians fault for their child not hunting deer and building points. Not mine or anyone else’s.

Again, like I’ve said numerous times before. The state has bent over backwards for youth in the last 10 years. They get far more opportunities than they had available when I was a youth. If your kid isn’t hunting every weekend from august until January, that’s your fault. Not the systems. Not the states. Not anyone else’s. Have the parent go look in the mirror and point at who is staring back at them. That’s who is to blame.

No they haven't put Archery with youth elk hunt is bull ****

 

[Vanilla]

I’d be fine with random if that was how it always was. You simply can’t go from a point system to full random draw and tell people that have upwards of 30 points “Sorry! Thanks for playing though.”

I’m on the record many times on this site saying I don’t think a perfect system for hunt draws exists. I don’t even think a great system exists. However, I believe Utah’s bonus point system that allocated half of the tags to the highest point holders and half at random is the best of a bunch of bad systems out there.

 

[gundog2]

I’d be fine with random if that was how it always was. You simply can’t go from a point system to full random draw and tell people that have upwards of 30 points “Sorry! Thanks for playing though.”

I’m on the record many times on this site saying I don’t think a perfect system for hunt draws exists. I don’t even think a great system exists. However, I believe Utah’s bonus point system that allocated half of the tags to the highest point holders and half at random is the best of a bunch of bad systems out there.

I think that the Utah’s 50:50 PP/BP system is okay, but I think they should cap the number of PP as soon as possible. A person with 30 PPs should have as much chance as anybody else to draw a PP permit. At some point, enough is enough.

 

[Robiland]

I think that the Utah’s 50:50 PP/BP system is okay, but I think they should cap the number of PP as soon as possible. A person with 30 PPs should have as much chance as anybody else to draw a PP permit. At some point, enough is enough.

I agree. They can actually stop PP with an Unsuccessful app. So no more PP is what I think needs to happen. So if the top number is 30, then eventually we can widle them down to zero, after many MANY many years.

 

[Bux n Dux]

No they haven't put Archery with youth elk hunt is bull ****

Huh?

 

[middlefork]

 

[middlefork]

I don't see where you guys are pulling 30 preference points from.
Pretty much everyone who has more than 5 for general deer is not trying to draw.

 

[Vanilla]

I think they are using PP and BP as synonyms, but they are not the same thing. As you know.

 

[Robiland]

I don't see where you guys are pulling 30 preference points from.
Pretty much everyone who has more than 5 for general deer is not trying to draw.

talking to a friend about this, he was confused also with BP and PP. He was thinking that they would be able to combine their General season deer points and the LE deer points into 1 point. So, if he had 5 GS points and 15 LE points, he would then have 20 points.

On a side note, you see the guy with 12 GS deer points in there? I know who it is, lol. Its my brother. I thought he had 13. But he also has 18 elk points. He keeps getting them thinking he might get back into hunting.

 

[elkassassin]

Whoreders!

talking to a friend about this, he was confused also with BP and PP. He was thinking that they would be able to combine their General season deer points and the LE deer points into 1 point. So, if he had 5 GS points and 15 LE points, he would then have 20 points.

On a side note, you see the guy with 12 GS deer points in there? I know who it is, lol. Its my brother. I thought he had 13. But he also has 18 elk points. He keeps getting them thinking he might get back into hunting.

 

[elkassassin]

So mf?

What's The Two Different Pages/Columns?

I'm Guessing Residents VS NON-Residents?

I don't see where you guys are pulling 30 preference points from.
Pretty much everyone who has more than 5 for general deer is not trying to draw.

 

[Elkrunning-Scared]

talking to a friend about this, he was confused also with BP and PP. He was thinking that they would be able to combine their General season deer points and the LE deer points into 1 point. So, if he had 5 GS points and 15 LE points, he would then have 20 points.

On a side note, you see the guy with 12 GS deer points in there? I know who it is, lol. Its my brother. I thought he had 13. But he also has 18 elk points. He keeps getting them thinking he might get back into hunting.

Well if that’s your brother he went hunting without you.
It shows he got a tag.

 

[elkassassin]

Ya Robi!

Did You Get UN-Invited?

Well if that’s your brother he went hunting without you.
It shows he got a tag.

 

[Vanilla]

Well if that’s your brother he went hunting without you.
It shows he got a tag.

Not if he only applied for a point. Those folks are not captured in that graphic.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Nilly!

It Lists Eligible Applicants?

Wouldn't He Be Included?

Not if he only applied for a point. Those folks are not captured in that graphic.

 

[Vanilla]

Again, I don't know what he applied for, but if he applied only for a preference point then he would not be accounted for on the graphic posted. That is only for people that applied for a permit, not a point only.

 

[elkassassin]

Not Trying To Argue With You Nilly!

We're Not Known For That!

So?

The Eligible Number Of Applicants On Them 2 Pages That mf Posted are Not All Of The Eligible Applicants?

Again, I don't know what he applied for, but if he applied only for a preference point then he would not be accounted for on the graphic posted. That is only for people that applied for a permit, not a point only.

 

[Vanilla]

They are only the eligible applicants that applied for a permit. This is from the draw odds. People that only apply for a point are not included in the draw odds. That is in a separate document.

Feel free to poke around this website a bit bobcatbess. It's got a lot of really good information.

Big game drawing odds and points report

Download all reports in PDF format

wildlife.utah.gov

 

[elkassassin]

OK Nilly!

That's What I Was Looking For!

I Didn't Know If That Was ALL The Eligible Hunters Or Not?

They are only the eligible applicants that applied for a permit. This is from the draw odds. People that only apply for a point are not included in the draw odds. That is in a separate document.

Feel free to poke around this website a bit bobcatbess. It's got a lot of really good information.

Big game drawing odds and points report

Download all reports in PDF format

wildlife.utah.gov

 

[elkassassin]

OK!

From What I Can See!

The Pages mf Posted Are The Total Of Eligible Applicants With Points?

If That's Incorrect Can Somebody Post The TOTAL NUMBER OF ELIGIBLE PEOPLE WITH POINTS & HOW MANY POINTS FOR THE GENERAL DEER HUNTS THAT PEOPLE HAD FOR 2023?

OR FOR 2024 PRE-DRAW?

 

[Shadow]

Elk, look further down the link to “point only purchases for big game and antlerless” and scroll down, you’ll find what you’re looking for.
There’s two who had 21 last year, and still bought points

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Shadow!

I Seen that & Thanks!

I'm Looking For The Total Number Of Hunters/People That Have Points!

And The Number Of Points each Person Has?

Elk, look further down the link to “point only purchases for big game and antlerless” and scroll down, you’ll find what you’re looking for.
There’s two who had 21 last year, and still bought points

 

[middlefork]

Bess,
If you combine the two lists you would have the number of people who think they might want to hunt GS deer in Utah.
Are there people with PP that are not listed? More than likely, but they are not really competing so it shouldn't matter.

 

[elkassassin]

Yes mf!

That's What I Was Thinking Too!

The 2 Combined Still Might Not Be All Of Them?

Bess,
If you combine the two lists you would have the number of people who think they might want to hunt GS deer in Utah.
Are there people with PP that are not listed? More than likely, but they are not really competing so it shouldn't matter.

 

[Robiland]

Ya Robi!

Did You Get UN-Invited?

Well, 2 things. My brother couldnt find his arse with his own 2 hands and I have to help him with all of this stuff. Its more of me reminding him and him asking me to help him. And So, 2nd, I saw his points. It actually shows right now last point was 2023 with 13 points. 2 LE deer points, 17 elk points. 12 goat and 5 moose. The 1st several years was on him and whatever he did. Now, I hold his hand and literally type it in for him. HAHAHA

 

[elkassassin]

You Know You're In For Some More Helping That'll Be More Work One Of These Days,Right?

One Thing About It!

He'll Have Enough General Deer Points For Both Of You To Draw Them 2 PREMIUM ONCE IN A LIFETIME COVETED PISSCUTTER Tags!

Well, 2 things. My brother couldnt find his arse with his own 2 hands and I have to help him with all of this stuff. Its more of me reminding him and him asking me to help him. And So, 2nd, I saw his points. It actually shows right now last point was 2023 with 13 points. 2 LE deer points, 17 elk points. 12 goat and 5 moose. The 1st several years was on him and whatever he did. Now, I hold his hand and literally type it in for him. HAHAHA

 

[gundog2]

I think they are using PP and BP as synonyms, but they are not the same thing. As you know.

I misused the term PP, but Utah actually treats their BPs like PP for half of the permits as they allocate half of the permits to applicants with the most BPs. So I really should have suggested to cap BPs at some level, preferably at a level that is several points above the current maximum. Capping points would have a negative effect on the max point holders, since it would allow people to catch up. Thus, I would propose to put the cap a few points above the current maximum and let those top dogs take advantage of their status.

 

[middlefork]

 

[elkassassin]

Would It Be Fair To Say Odds Are Getting Worse & Worse?

 

[elkassassin]

Somebody Mentioned Hunters With 30 Points!

There Is A Non-Resident with 30 Points!

He Must Be Waiting For That 50" Buck!

 

[DeerHunter53]

I did not see mention that if a person buys a landowner buck tag that would also take away his/her accumulated Deer points?

I believe that if you buy a CMWU or private tag you don't get a point for that year. Accumulated is another issue

 

[MrShane]

I believe that if you buy a CMWU or private tag you don't get a point for that year. Accumulated is another issue

Correct, but if this type of proposal ever passes, should the buying of a CWMU or private tag cost you all of your accumulated points?

 

[gundog2]

Correct, but if this type of proposal ever passes, should the buying of a CWMU or private tag cost you all of your accumulated points?

No, purchase of a CWMU tag should not cost points because this would disincentivize people from buying these tags and it could jeopardize the whole CWMU program.

 

[deadibob]

The DWR folks are just people. I presume many of them are hunters. I think people often come up with ideas that serve themselves over the interest of others. This is one of those ideas. Did they do this intentionally? Maybe not, but they did not go out of their way to think about downstream consequences? They sold something that they did not really have (i.e. OTC deer permits in 2024). They made obligations that they couldn’t really fulfill without causing problems it the future. This was an idea that served themselves well, but they took a crap on future hunters. Preference points systems for OIL species is another good example of this phenomenon. These PP systems served the people that created them, but it was at the expense of new hunters coming into the system in the future. It is hard for me to give these people a pass for implementing PP systems for species where the number of hunters swamps the number of available permits and it is hard to erase the problems that this created. I little bit of forethought would tell you that some of these ideas were flawed at the beginning.

Two key words you used “I PRESUME”

 

[Vanilla]

Correct, but if this type of proposal ever passes, should the buying of a CWMU or private tag cost you all of your accumulated points?

Yes. If you have a tag, you keep no points. Period. No exceptions.

This is not about deer management or even hunt structures for hunters. It's an attempt to address point creep. If you obtain a permit for that species, your points for that species go to zero.

That will help point creep more than any swapping of seasons or fake half measures people have been proposing for a decade now.

 

[elkassassin]

I Said It Wouldn't Work When It Was Drempt Up!

Was I Wrong?

Yes. If you have a tag, you keep no points. Period. No exceptions.

This is not about deer management or even hunt structures for hunters. It's an attempt to address point creep. If you obtain a permit for that species, your points for that species go to zero.

That will help point creep more than any swapping of seasons or fake half measures people have been proposing for a decade now.

 

[Vanilla]

Against my better judgment, as I’m a little bored in the airport…

What did you say wouldn’t work?

And if “it” didn’t work, what was “it” supposed to do that “it” didn't?

 

[gundog2]

Two key words you used “I PRESUME”

I guess you got all the facts.

 

[elkassassin]

You Know Damn well What I'm Taking About!

Against my better judgment, as I’m a little bored in the airport…

What did you say wouldn’t work?

And if “it” didn’t work, what was “it” supposed to do that “it” didn't?

 

[ridgetops]

You Know Damn well What I'm Taking About!

I don't

 

[elkassassin]

OK!

Time to Sound Like A Broken Record Again I Guess!

I Said The Points System That Was Drempt Up Wouldn't Work!

I Said:You'll Think It's Working For A While!

I Said:What Ya Gonna Do When We Get Down The Road 20-25 Years!

Well Here The Hell We Are!

I don't

 

[SWAGshootn]

No, purchase of a CWMU tag should not cost points because this would disincentivize people from buying these tags and it could jeopardize the whole CWMU program.

How is the hell is it going to jeopardize the whole CWMU program?

 

[elkassassin]

The CWMU'S Ain't Gonna Care If Public Hunters Don't Show Up!

How is the hell is it going to jeopardize the whole CWMU program?

 

[middlefork]

It would effect the NR more the R hunters but sure why not lose any points for any species/tag? CWMU included.

There appears to be a somewhat unlimited population out there willing to pay top dollar to kill something preferably with trophy bragging rights on CWMU's. Why not put a waiting period on them? That should boost the dollars per tag to the operators.

 

[elkassassin]

It would effect the NR more the R hunters but sure why not lose any points for any species/tag? CWMU included.

I had A guy while Back Ask Me When We Were Gonna run Out Of People with Un-Limited Money That Are Paying These Ridiculous Prices For Tags?

I Said:

Don't Worry!

There Will Never Be A Shortage Of Them!

It's Not Just On CWMU'S!

Them Money Boys Ain't Gonna Like Your Idea There mf!

There appears to be a somewhat unlimited population out there willing to pay top dollar to kill something preferably with trophy bragging rights on CWMU's. Why not put a waiting period on them? That should boost the dollars per tag to the operators.

 

[Dangbig]

What benefit would we loose

 

[Deerlove]

No, purchase of a CWMU tag should not cost points because this would disincentivize people from buying these tags and it could jeopardize the whole CWMU program.

They don't care about getting a point they'll still sell

 

[Vanilla]

OK!

Time to Sound Like A Broken Record Again I Guess!

I Said The Points System That Was Drempt Up Wouldn't Work!

I Said:You'll Think It's Working For A While!

I Said:What Ya Gonna Do When We Get Down The Road 20-25 Years!

Well Here The Hell We Are!

I know this is what you tell us you said back then. None of us were on MM in the early 90s as these ideas were being dreamt up, so we can’t verify. However, I’ll take you at your word that you did say these things.

That said, it still doesn’t tell us what “working” means in this context. What was the goal? And are we sure it didn’t accomplish that goal for those that put this in place back in the day?

Some may not like the system now, but does that mean it “didn’t work?”

I’m more interested in analyzing the why and the goal of it all than who allegedly said what about it at the time.

 

[elkassassin]

I Said:

You're Gonna Think It's Working For A Few Years!

I Asked:

How's That Gonna Be Working Down The Road In 20-25-30 Years?

I Also Said It Wouldn't Be Fair To The Younger Hunters Wanting To Join/Apply Down The Road!

You Ever Think About The Future Generations Of Hunters Nilly?

Let's Say You Nilly Just Got Old Enough This Year To Start Applying In The Big Game Draws This Year!

You're 25 to 30 Points Down!

Quite An Incentive To Get Involved Isn't It?

Most Modern Day Kids Will Just Say F'It I Ain't Doing That!

The Ones That Really Wanna Draw A Decent Tag Some Day/Year/Decade Are The Ones That'll Dearly Pay!

I Know It's Hard For You To Look In To The Future But You Might Start Thinking About It!

I know this is what you tell us you said back then. None of us were on MM in the early 90s as these ideas were being dreamt up, so we can’t verify. However, I’ll take you at your word that you did say these things.

That said, it still doesn’t tell us what “working” means in this context. What was the goal? And are we sure it didn’t accomplish that goal for those that put this in place back in the day?

Some may not like the system now, but does that mean it “didn’t work?”

I’m more interested in analyzing the why and the goal of it all than who allegedly said what about it at the time.

 

[Vanilla]

You Ever Think About The Future Generations Of Hunters Nilly?



I Know It's Hard For You To Look In To The Future But You Might Start Thinking About It!

I’m just asking clarifying questions bessy. You don’t always have to make it about me. And there certainly isn’t a rule that requires you to be a raging douche all the time.

The reality is your generation already took a stab at this and FUBAR’d it big time. So please forgive me if I’m looking for new voices. I didn’t create this system. You all did. If you’re looking for someone to blame, look in the mirror. (If you’re not reading this as a giant middle finger, wake up and do so!)

 

[elkassassin]

Somebody better SPLAIN It To You!

You Must Feel 10' 6" Tall & Bullet Proof With The Name Calling!

You Always Blame Everything On Everybodyelse,WEAK!

So?

All I Get Is The BIRD Huh?

WEAK!

Maybe It's Time You Listen To Another Podcast & SUCK The BS In Some More!

Or You & Your Cronies Can Do Some More BAWLING To Founder!

 

[gundog2]

They don't care about getting a point they'll still sell

Perhaps this is true most of the time, but I was offered an opportunity to buy a discounted CWMU voucher that someone had already purchased and decided to opt out. I would not have done it if it erased my points. I would not underestimate the frugality of wealthy people. It would not have been worth more than one or two points. You don’t get to be wealthy by throwing money away without thinking about it.

 

[gundog2]

How is the hell is it going to jeopardize the whole CWMU program?

Not sure what I said to trigger the H bomb? I think it could jeopardize the CWMU program because the success of the CWMU program depends largely on the willingness of landowners to participate. The landowners expect hunters to pay top dollar for CWMU vouchers. Although many people would still pay top dollar to buy tags if they lose points, some might not. Neither the landowners or hunters want to have anything taken away from them. They obviously fought to get things the way that they are and they are not going to be happy to lose any ground.