Arizona TrailCam Ban Proposal

A

AZMIGHTYMULIES

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Due to myself furthering my career towards Wildlife Biology/Science , Dixie State University has yet to offer certain Academic Courses of study of my interest . So I have been contacting and meeting several different people from Logan Utah to Northern Arizona University, current Biologist's , conservationist and environmentalists , even here at the local BLM Agency . Throughout my conversations , the Trail Camera topic arose , just because I utilize them often . One thing for certain I've learned , Environmentalist literally oppose the use of Trail Cameras unless they are used for research purposes and a # of Agency's (BLM, USFS , NPS, USGS) , certain personnel are and have been pressuring the AZG&FD to Ban Trail Cameras permanently . Apparently there already is a law that you cannot have a Trail Camera w/n 100' of any water source. However the AZG&FD for the most part refuses to enforce this Law . But beware, the Environmentalist among different agencies have been taking Trail Cameras. Areas of special interest/attention are areas that are designated Wilderness Areas and Monuments . Concerns that I have heard from different sources including AZG&FD. Concern 1: VRM ( Visual Resource Management act ) . There are different levels pertaining to this 1 through 4 , 1 being strict and High Priority , 4 being lenient . VRM'S 1 and 2 are generally areas which are w/n the boundaries of Wilderness Areas and or Monuments . There are many man made water resources w/n these areas that State Wildlife Resources have developed even well prior to these Wilderness Areas/Monuments were designated and due to strict regulations the state agencies are even considering the removal of some of these Wildlife Water Catchments that are so crucial to the survival of all Wildlife that inhabit these areas , because many trails/roads are closed and no longer accessible to these Water Catchments for annual maintenance or repairs. Anyway's what I'm saying here is these areas are very well looked over by some Environmentalist w/n these Agencies and they will take your Cameras if they want to. Second concern : seeing 15 cameras on 1 water source . These people have been watching and documenting these activities . There are several complaints of Guide Services using 150, 200, 300 cameras , some DIY Hunters complaining the excessive use of cameras , there have been threats and fist fights over areas of use of Cameras , therefore entitlement issues , and many reports of littering , leaving batteries on the ground contaminating ground , throwing batteries into the water troughs etc . Reports of Guides leaving Cameras in place all year long , some busted up on the ground due to cattle and even wildlife . Some believe some Guides have so many Trail Cameras being in use at any given time that results to them being lazy to the point of not even bothering to retrieve them . This I do know is going on in Arizona and Utah as for the regulations and concerns is concerned .
I understand this is a heated topic , some people like using Trail Cameras and some Hunters despise the Trail Cameras . Either way , we as Sportsman need to come to a happy medium on this topic and regardless of your opinion , no matter who you are I'll respect your opinion .
I myself enjoy utilizing my Trail Cameras and I'll use most the time about 18 cameras on average in the field . But honestly , I do understand a lot of the concerns some people have regarding the use of Trail Cameras . Seeing 15 Cameras on 1 Water trough ... I laugh every time when I see 8 to 13 Cameras on 1 water trough , and it does make the area look tacky or ugly . I can only imagine what an avid environmentalist thinks when they see that, they likely about have a heart attach . lol
But seriously , if we as sportsman do not come up w/ a reasonable solution , Trail Cams will become Banned literally all together .
My thoughts are this . What if there was a "Cap", on the # of Cameras to be used at any given time by each Outfitter/Guide Company per Unit and Individual DIY Hunter of like 20 Cameras max ? Each camera with a label of your info GMU# and Cameras being numbered 1 through 20 if you decide to use 20 Cameras , this will enable those who are regulating the Laws to identify who is breaking the laws .
Anyways what are your thoughts , concerns opinions ?
 
I do not see how people think that they have a RIGHT to have THEIR OWN PERSONAL REMOTE SURVEILLANCE SYSTEM ON PUBLIC LAND.

Public land is for everyone to utilize. We should help maintain open country and try to keep it more or less 'natural' and not infected with humans.

I feel people need to practice ?LEAVE NO TRACE?. This is most respectful and cordial to the land itself, the animals, and other humans.

Every government agency that deals with land, forest, and game should promote and market the ?LEAVE NO TRACE? principle!

Most any one will see from me are my foot tracks and they readily disappear with time.

I personally do not want to be under other peoples OWN PERSONAL REMOTE SURVEILLANCE SYSTEM ON PUBLIC LAND.

I do not want you taking pictures of my nephew and/or niece while I am trying to teach them how to look for sign, e.g. looking for a big ol? buck track.

The kids today... in the future when they are adults, when asked "What do you do when you are out in the woods?" they should reply "Leave no trace."

If you are taking pictures of me, I should be able to ask you face to face ?please stop?, and if you are respectful you would stop. One cannot do that on these personal remote surveillance systems.

I have personally seen 23 game camera on a trick tank in unit 9 one year. This was about 5 years ago. It was disheartening and pathetic.

What if I set up cameras on public land surrounding a person?s house taking pictures of their wife and kids? That person doesn't know me or anything about me.

The complete former is a personal reason.

How about the animals?

Hunters have gotten very good. So much many animals can be killed nearly at a hint of will and are now chosen to die. Some are effectively sold.

Hunters and hunting have become EXTREME.

Outfitters are and have been EXTREME!

For the sake of preservation we should keep things simple and easy. This includes the AZGFD draw system and pricing structure which they keep trying to change! What the heck, it's a good one, everyone has a chance to draw, leave it as is. Manage the game and sustain the environment which these animals live in.

If I see your cameras in the woods, I will not damage your camera, however I will cover the lens with a branch or other where it will not take pictures of me or other or game.

Here is snippet of a letter I wrote over 5 years ago.

Arizona Old School Sportsmen Laws and Ethics
I feel given the present state of hunting a presumably grim future the Arizona Game and Fish should lead by example to preserve hunting for present and future generations. I feel the Arizona Game and Fish should adopt a code of simple, easy to interpret, easy to follow, and easier to enforce laws and ethics for Arizona sportsmen to follow. A proactive stance and leading by example will not only instill RESPECT to the Arizona sportsmen towards the environment, animals, and other people utilizing public land, but also show respect to the ranchers who control much of the private land in Arizona. Perhaps some of these closed ranches may permit public access once again? This stance may also transcend to other states throughout the Western United States. I propose ?Arizona Old School Sportsmen Laws and Ethics?:

1. Do not leave anything left unattended or abandoned on public lands outside of one?s camp. Pack it in, pack it out. This includes game cameras, tree stands, blinds, and any trash. Leave no trace.
2. No feeding or baiting wildlife for any reasons.
3. No off-road vehicle travel. Do not hunt and shoot game that you will not be able to retrieve with traditional physical methods.
4. No sitting water within ? mile on public land. If one is hunting around water limit time spent to a maximum of 1 hour as to keep disturbance to the animals and other hunters to a minimum.
5. Bury human waste. Do one?s personal business a respectable distance from water sources and roads.
6. No flying for the purpose of locating game.
7. Keep excess number of helpers or ?gang hunting? to a minimum as to not disturb other tag holders.
8. Hunt by fair chase. Do one?s best to obtain a quick and ethical kill and not waste any meat.

I believe that this proactive stance will help the sportsmen of today and tomorrow enjoy more sustainable and quality experiences for years to come. Of course there will be some who object to this, but I feel that most people will respect the purpose and principle for sake of preservation. I would also encourage the Arizona Game and Fish to work with the Private Landowners, Forest Service, State, and BLM land agencies to adopt unified laws and ethics.

Many of my friends, my family?s friends, my family, and I are regulars in the woods here around Northern AZ and frequent the National Forests, private, state and BLM lands on a regular basis. I am the 5th generation here as both sides of my family had homesteads at one time in Arizona. I hope that the future generations and present citizens continue have the opportunity to see the Arizona that I have and realize that it is an awesome place as I have seen it.

Inevitable Questions

? Should citizens be subject to surveillance via game cameras and their right to privacy invaded on public land?
? How long until someone posts pictures of an individual going to the bathroom in woods on the internet?
? How long until people start feeding/baiting animals for the purpose of increasing antler growth?
? What happens when feeding/baiting permanently alters an animal?s natural eating habits?
? When will a hunting dispute or confrontation regarding a waterhole escalate to a breaking point?
? When will the Outfitter?s cost of doing business outweigh a private citizen?s right to enjoy public land?
? How long until Babbitt Ranches, the Boquillas Ranch, and others prohibit and prevent access to sportsmen and recreationists from both private and public land?
? At what point is this ?new age of hunting? no longer ?fair chase? hunting?
? How much is game being pressured and harassed and what are the effects?
? Is our present direction and new trends good for the future of the Arizona?s environment, animals, sportsmen, and recreationists?
 
I have used trailcams in the past and enjoyed the pictures of wildlife that I got. However it has gotten to the insane point with the number of cameras that are sometimes on water holes in the desert areas, sometimes on the only water source for miles.

I wouldn't care in the least if they were banned.
 
Some of this, I would say, might be a bit extreme...but definitely a great starting point. Having said that, I think arizona makes some VERY good points!

This particular one is SPOT ON: At what point is this ?new age of hunting? no longer ?fair chase? hunting?

Good post!
 
Have not heard of any trail cam ban being proposed in AZ. I do believe it is inevitable.

Arizona, very nice 1st post. Welcome to the site.

IMO, there are many solid reasons trail cams should go away on public land. Personally, I don't use them but I sure do enjoy all the cool photos others post on these sites. It is neat to see all the different wildlife that is normally unseen.
 
arizona , great post man !! You took a great amount of time posting that , thanks . And thanks for everyone else's post . Again some of us like using Trail Cameras , myself included , but others have different feelings about them which I respect as we should all respect each others opinions .
But there are those that I feel have taking Trail Cameras to a whole New level and taking it for granted . For the most part peeps place cameras right on water , hence always keep that in mind . Some of the Wildlife Biologist I've talked to that are using Trail Cameras for research actually place them on Game Trails that are frequently used rather than on Water .
Federal Agencies are the ones pushing for a complete Ban/Law against the use of Cameras , but are taking confiscating Trail Cameras already , especially in Wilderness Areas or Monuments . They see 10+ Cameras on a water hole and they throw a fit about it which is understandable .
Between 13a and 13b I have almost 400 documented Water holes . If there was at least a "Cap" of 20 Trail Cameras that can be used among each Guide Service and each DIY Hunter that did not hire a Guide Service , this would eliminate a lot of congestion on these Water sources and likely get less attention by the Pro Environmentalist's .
I use about 18 Cameras , but I move them around after about 3 weeks . And for the most part just by doing that I have gotten to know virtually almost every Buck that the Guide Services had gotten to know about whom uses 200+ Cameras . Second I believe that putting a 20 Trail Camera "Cap" into affect , maybe these people ,not just Guides or Outfitters but everybody, will then take the time to retrieve them after the season rather than having them sit over several months , at times getting destroyed by livestock and wildlife leaving busted up parts of cameras on the ground and batteries contaminating the soil or water .
There has been a lot of great discoveries that have come from the use of Trail Cameras , not just from the Wildlife Biologists , but from us Sportsman .
So out of respect to those whom do not like Trail Cameras and to those who do like Trail Cameras , I figured at least propose a "Cap" of limited Trail Cameras to be used on each Unit .
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-14 AT 03:47PM (MST)[p]"If there was at least a "Cap" of 20 Trail Cameras that can be used"

TWENTY trail cameras, really? Respectfully, you're not part of the solution AZMM, you're part of the problem. How about IF they are allowed to remain on public land you can only deploy one?

BOHNTR )))---------->
 
You know what I think! I feel 5 cameras for personal and 10 cameras for outfitters Is enough! Who care where they put them! 20 cameras in one water hole really is not going to be a lot of good for the people that put them there!
 
BOHNTR : How am I part of the problem ? I DON'T EVEN HUNT !!! I utilize my cameras for research and passion towards Wildlife , not just mule Deer all Wildlife . The problem is , like your self , not willing to compromise . Going from Unlimited #'s of use of Cameras to just 1 .... really ????
I respect your opinion, that I do , obviously you don't like Trail Cameras . But many people do like ad enjoy Cameras . I've been using Cameras since 2008 , since 2010 I have provided a lot of info to BLM Wildlife Biologist's and AZG&F personnel . since Aug 2012 I've been going to college in Wildlife Biology while simultaneously staying involved with AZG&F and BLM by feeding them info and I'll continue to do so in hopes that by the time I Graduate with a Bachelors Degree I will get employed through one of the Agencies .
There is a lot of great info that come from Hunters using Trail Cams that is forwarded to Federal State Agencies !! But like You , some others feel that Trail Cam use has gotten out of control . A "Cap" of 20 Cameras being used would make a huge difference , trust me on that . A lot of these Outfitters use 300 Cameras ... so don't you think a drop down to 20 Cameras would make a difference ? Thats a huge difference and I greatly feel that that would make it more fair for the DIY Hunters , because your DIY Hunter , if He has a 13b Tag , He isn't Buying 300 Cameras ... so it presents a more fair balance IMO .
 
So is it the trail cameras that are the problem or the guides?

Regardless...Wouldn't hurt my feelings if they outlawed of both
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-14 AT 05:00PM (MST)[p]Really? Get a grip! If you have someone that can't scout but drew a tag and want someone to do it for them it's a problem? Yes i am that person and I need the help! so if you drew a 13b late tag and don't have the time what do you do? Hope some day you draw it again? Yes please use all the cameras you got!

>So is it the trail cameras
>that are the problem or
>the guides?
>
>Regardless...Wouldn't hurt my feelings if they
>outlawed of both
 
It's simple...You don't have time to scout? But you have time to hunt..Right? So scout and hunt at the same time and chootem when you see them...problem solved
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-14 AT 05:42PM (MST)[p]Really? So if you drew a 13b late tag and you could not scout it's no big deal?give me a break! Sorry but since I am in this boat you will not see me agree with this at all and will be happy for every camera that is set so I get a monster! You don't like it well to bad! You all would feel the same way if you where me!

>It's simple...You don't have time to
>scout? But you have time
>to hunt..Right? So scout and
>hunt at the same time
>and chootem when you see
>them...problem solved
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-14 AT 06:08PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-14 AT 06:01?PM (MST)

I don't think so scooter...I'd rather shoot nothing that a buck someone else found for me

Exactly why hunting has become what it has...people think they are entitled to a monster buck because they have been putting in for such and such a unit for so many years...meanwhile they couldn't find their a$$ with both hands
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-14 AT 06:23PM (MST)[p]Yeah kid on a scooter! You draw this tag like I have and you get back to me and say I didn't need help or cameras! You Go find your OTC buck with no cameras! Gzzzz well get a grip kid or big kid! This for me is once a life time and please use all the damn cameras you got! Ok well if I was in your shoes! I may feel the same but since I am not and I will never draw this again! I don't give a hoot what people think about cameras and hope my friends put 500 hundred of them out! After that I hope they can only use 1! Lol

>LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-14
>AT 06:01?PM (MST)
>
>I don't think so scooter...I'd rather
>shoot nothing that a buck
>someone else found for me
>
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-14 AT 06:57PM (MST)[p]Unfortunately the monsters will be shot by the auction tag hunters, just look at the past few years the biggest elk and mule are killed by the auction tag guys. I don't have a problem with that as it raises a ton of money for Arizona's wildlife.

As has been stated, there are around 400 water sources on the strip 13 a & b. I would guess 95% of those have a camera on them. I would at least like to see a ban on the use of trail cams within 1/4 mile of any water source. It has gotten way out of hand and BTW I have over 30 trail cameras and enjoy using them, but i would love to see a restriction put on them.

Congrats on the tag Bigger Fish, but the reality is the biggest deer will be killed by the auction hunters, then the rest of the biggest deer will be hunted by hunters with guides, so the average diy Joe hunter has a slim chance at taking one of those animals.

I speak from experience, myself and my wife recently have had strip tags and we went guided with one of the best guides on the strip. I started my hunt hunting a buck that would go around 215+, when we got there opening morning there was 8 other trucks and twice as many hunters, guides, helpers. The water in the area had over 8 cameras on it. I had a unit 9 archery bull tag a couple years ago and used cameras and had found a giant bull along with everyone else and no one got him because of all the pressure. The point is with cameras on water almost every single trophy animal is known and will be hunted by those with the most money. Is it fair to the animals? I know just because you have one on camera it doesn't mean you will kill it, but it sure ups the odds.

A 20 cam limit would not work in my opinion as the guides or outfitters could start up multiple companies/guide services on paper to get as many cams as they wanted. I really would like to see a 1/4 mile water source restriction. That way Guys can still use cams.
 
"I use about 18 Cameras , but I move them around after about 3 weeks . And for the most part just by doing that I have gotten to know virtually almost every Buck that the Guide Services had gotten to know about whom uses 200+ Cameras . Second I believe that putting a 20 Trail Camera "Cap" into affect ..."

I use 3 cameras, the limit should be 4.
 
so you get to camp were you begin hunting threw 500 trail cam pics and there he is the buck of your dreams,mid morning your in the winner circle with the trophy and never entered the race,wait I dont like that story.I think I will just go have fun and leave the pressure at work.185 stip bucks may keep larger ones behind.
 
There is no questioning the utility of cameras, from research, to use of actual hunting, to their use in everyday society. But man, in the woods the last ten years, private and commercial use is so extreme and far from natural; there are so many people, too many people, everybody is ?entitled?.

Yes pictures are neat. Yes people learn a lot. I love it when I get the experience in person!

Everyone wants to know, how about appreciate the not knowing and hunting. Respect the not knowing, trying to figure out, and the chance of the universe. Respect a person?s right to not see your junk out in the middle of nowhere, let alone a bunch of junk everywhere. Quality experiences are getting harder and harder to come by.

Outfitters employed gang hunting and info gathering before cameras, now they do both a gang of cameras and a gang of soldiers among other things. Not all do, but a significant number, especially the big outfits. There is no limit for these outfitters. You?ll probably never know I am around unless we bump into each other, but you'll dang sure know when an outfitter is around. No questioning their presence? And they are always around, especially with these cameras.

That passion you have AZmm, we all have it, even ones that are in it for the business and pleasure. I wish people would exercise more caution when mixing business with pleasure, especially if it is many peoples? pleasure and such a valued part of their lives. Unfortunately many seemingly spare no expense or others expense due to their ?entitlement?. Many people are just ignorant.

There is no effective way to police cameras. People will find a way. It is easier to make it clear, pack it in, pack it out, and leave no trace.

Even if everyone was limited to ?one?, well there are a lot of people around?

An example to relate is atv?s and people driving off-road. It really doesn't hurt if one person does it once. However, if you have hundreds of people driving off road to recreate, hunt game, driving off road to retrieve game, especially in a unit? well that will leave a mark and is very intrusive, especially on public land.

Again people are ?entitled? and lack respect or are just ignorant.

Maybe the AZGFD should be the ones operating cameras, one per water hole and make them public property, provide pics on internet? yeah right! I don't want tax dollars going to cameras let alone more government employees. Everyone knows how good the government is at managing right? Especially money? AZGFD would have to increase license and tag prices to pay for it? Great?!? Look at the road management that went down, a whole other subject, but wtf? Just flat ass too many people and a complicated government. The government should work on keeping open spaces open. Preserve ?natural? and not develop, meanwhile exercising sustained utility. We don't want the west becoming like the east. Back east is primarily all private and to me lost part of the ?essence? of America.

Perhaps government should get simpler??

Cameras should be on the person, or on private land, not left for surveillance on public land for personal use. Heck I wish outfitters were designated to private land.

A must is to keep it simple and easy as possible, perhaps something that can transcend time and be preserved. No reason to complicate, think sustainable. Yeah, some will miss out on the cameras; however, the future generations may be able to experience what we have in a still a ?natural? state.

We have evolved into such a cynical society the last 60 years; America?s and Americans? sense of entitlement is amazing. It's hard to see us leaving anything better to the next generations.
 
arizona , I like your philosophy regarding this topic . I like that your opinion states that your against the use of Trail Cameras and other gadgets that are being utilized for hunting purposes , yet you are being civil about it ... Thanks . You should run for Congress , we need more people like you in the WH . lol .
azhuntin , you and I have gotten to know a lot more about each other over the years so I think understand each others back ground a bit and understand each other . You hunting the AZ Strip , you've gotten to see first hand what it can be like out there now days . For the moment Trail Cameras are here and I think regardless whether the Guides that use 20 or 300 , they will always for the most part kill the Bigger Bucks each year . The Guides are good at what they do, the know the area well . I know that if I find a great Buck this year and it eludes al hunters for the year , I know I will be watching that Buck again the following year in hopes it gets bigger . The Veteran Guides do the same thing . I guess regardless whether Trail Cams are used or not patterning a Buck for subsequent years would be inevitable .
All I know is this . Trail Cams will be banned if things do not change .
Why do the guys that pay 200k or 300k for the Auction have to be the ones who bag the biggest bucks each year . DIY want the same opportunity , people whom waited 15+ years to draw the tag . The Biggest advantage the Outfitters have over the DIY Hunters is the # of Trail Cams being used , this is a concern/complaint that has been brought to the attention to all State DWR's in virtually all states . Oh , now Drones is a New one that is certainly getting a lot of attention as well , but well save that for a whole other topic . lol .
 
How bout we just ban them on public property? Simple solution and we go back to finding animals the old fashioned way - with boot leather, glass, a tank of gas, and some actual hunting skill.

So what if outfitters don't find or kill a few bucks b/c they can't post up at every water hole with 24/7 surveillance coverage?

Kind of a joke right now with all the cameras out on the strip and the top elk units.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-13-14 AT 11:57PM (MST)[p]One thing is for certain. For those of you that do not think the camera thing has gotten out of hand...you are being more than just a little na?ve. I would like to see a limit as to how many cameras one person or guide can use. What that number would be is certainly debatable....but 20-30 or 200 is BS!
I firmly believe that the size of the buck you harvest should be directly related to your own skill and effort....not the size of the check you can write.
You may think that your "once in a lifetime tag" entitles you to use all of the technology available...and maybe it does. However, at what point do you abandon the word "hunter" and then adopt the word "shooter?"
Here are some other terms you can ponder..."fair chase" and "technological advantage."
 
There have been some excellent points made. Please don't get me wrong I currently use cameras to my advantage and I would hate to see a total ban, but there needs to be some control on them or as Mighty Muleys has stated they will eventually be banned altogether. And your right the guides that spend the time will still kill great animals because they follow them year after and are aware of where they live. When I first started using trail cams, you had to take the roll of film out and get it developed. I guess we as sportsman need to decide what roll all the advancements in technology should have in hunting. It's not just cameras, but now we are talking drones? It probably is not that far fetched as I see amazon is wanting to potentially use them in the future for delivering their products.
 
I personally don't mind if they keep trail cams, or outlaw them altogether. I enjoy using them while they are legal to use and will continue to until something changes. As mentioned the use of trail cams a 1/4 mile from water would help, but I don't think it would solve all problems. Tanks might get surrounded with cams, rather than one being at the water.

Limiting how many trail cams one person can put out might help, but how would you know how many cams one person put out?

Overall I think you either have to ban trail cams altogether, or you have to leave it the way it currently is. I could see them banning the use of trail cams a 1/4 mile from water, much like they have done on the boquillas. This would allow people to still use trail cams, yet make if more difficult and time consuming to get a picture of a certain animal. Now if they ban trail cams altogether I will miss using them, but it would probably leave bigger bucks and bulls for us all to chase.
 
I would like to know just how effective a limit on the number of trailcams would work. Do they need to be registered, buy a license to put them up, permits? I don't see that as being effective.

I think this is an all or nothing issue as Mike111 said.
 
Are all of you guys serious? This is possibly the dumbest post I have seen on this site. First off why have more regulations than we already have? Having a camera on a water hole hurts absolutely noone and doesn't hurt the animals or surrounding forest.
If you put a limit on trail cams then let's put a ban on rangefinders and high powered scopes etc. Because that new technology isn't the "old school way". Give me a break.
You guys should be ashamed. The national forest is for everyone's use. If you don't think using cams is fair then don't use them. Go back to using muskets and recurves. I have no right to tell an environmentalist what they can or can't do in the forest so I expect them to do the same. If someone is lag bolting cameras to trees then I can see where people can get mad but strapping a cam to a tree at a pond does no harm. Get real and find something else to whine about.
 
Are all of you guys serious? This is possibly the dumbest post I have seen on this site. First off why have more regulations than we already have? Having a camera on a water hole hurts absolutely noone and doesn't hurt the animals or surrounding forest.
If you put a limit on trail cams then let's put a ban on rangefinders and high powered scopes etc. Because that new technology isn't the "old school way". Give me a break.
You guys should be ashamed. The national forest is for everyone's use. If you don't think using cams is fair then don't use them. Go back to using muskets and recurves. I have no right to tell an environmentalist what they can or can't do in the forest so I expect them to do the same. If someone is lag bolting cameras to trees then I can see where people can get mad but strapping a cam to a tree at a pond does no harm. Get real and find something else to whine about.
 
I don't own any trail cams and I don't think they should be banned. In my opinion they'll probably put a season on them and limit how many can be used in area. Oh ya you'll have to pay for a stamp or something like that......
 
The ability to hunt is quickly disappearing from all the cameras being utilized today. Hunting is morphing into who can put up the most cameras, and who can answer their phone the fastest. From super famous hunters who are actually being guided behind the scenes making their rounds on the lecture circuit telling us all how to hunt, to some of the supposedly best guide services putting out bounties for the biggest game cause they couldn't find the animal on their own or within their own guide business. It's all turned into one big dog and pony show, and kinda leaves you wondering who's going to be left to show us how to actually hunt. I use cameras also but wouldn't mind if they outlawed them also. When you look at a watermark on a pic next time, ask yourself what the chances are of that animal in the pic being actually found by the guide service with the watermark. Half the gov tags in az should have at least 2 to 3 watermarks on the pic, very deceiving and confusing.
 
bonecollector777 : with all do respect towards your point of view and opinion, I feel as if you're wrong for the most part . Had you of read some of my first posts you'd see that there have been concerns that are in need of being addressed and that's what this whole topic is about .
For someone to do whatever they want when they want in Our Forest's is not really a good thing. If that were the case , every bit of property would be private property.
I believe in Conservation and Preservation of Our Lands . For Our Government to initiate and Constitute Wilderness Areas and Monuments I strongly feel is a great plan . Our Wildlife depends on this protection . Without Habitat there would not be Wildlife. However, on the same token, I do believe in overreach , meaning I do oppose of the Government initiating , Constituting to many Wilderness Areas and Monuments , closing roads to access certain areas of the Lands .
Balance is a big key for everyone to be happy . Some people like Cameras, other do not so much .
But concerns range from Visual Resource Management violations, Littering, contaminating water sources provided to wildlife , people pounding there T-posts through water lines creating leaks resulting to draining water tanks , entitlement issues among sportsman etc .
I do not remember the exact cost, but if your camera is found on the ground in pieces , or whatever they will Fine you 500.00 or 1500.00 for littering . They are now watching this closely .
When these Federal Agency Personnel see's 10 Cameras on a Water source , especially in a Wilderness/Monument area they are outraged . Wilderness/Monument zones areas are ares that zero Man made structures are allowed period . But some personnel from some of these Agencies go beyond and are confiscating Cameras in areas that aren't even in Wilderness Areas .
That's why I at least present an option of at least putting a "Cap" on the # of Limited Camera use . I think most would agree that seeing less Trail Cameras in the field would eliminate some tension among DIY Hunters and Outfitters , giving the DIY Hunters a better opportunity of maybe finding the "Biggest Buck in the Unit".
I think there would be less littering and less concern of contamination of ground or water . Certainly less of an Eye Sore , not seeing 10 Cameras in 1 area . 20 Cameras for an individual/Outfitter to use is nothing considering the size of a Hunting Unit. Most DIY Hunters do not use more than 10 Cameras let alone 20 .
 
I agree with ya couesmagnet .. in fact many of the Outfitters today were Exclusive Guide Services just a couple years ago but have joined forces , merging into one huge Outfitter Service .
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-14 AT 09:55AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-14 AT 09:50?AM (MST)

Az mighty mulies the points you bring up pretty much all already have laws against them. If I recall littering has been illegal for a long time. If someone can't keep their camera strapped to a tree or on a post and it falls on the ground then sure go ahead and give them a ticket if you feel it's necessary. If someone throws batteries on the ground give them a ticket for littering. If they pound a post through a water line make them pay to fix it etc. Banning cams or regulating them in any way isn't the answer. As for an eye sore how are a few cameras around D a tank hurting anyone's eyes? That's like saying when I go to the lake and see boats on it I'm upset because it's not the natural way the lake should be and I should propose to ban boats on all water sources an animal might use.

Next point. . You guys act like if a big buck walks in front of the camera a few times all you gotta do is send out the pic to everyone, find someone to pay, and go out and shoot the buck that is still gonna be standing in the same spot ready to be shot. Once the hunt starts you still have to find the deer and hunt it! A cam is no different than if I spent a week straight following a deer through the woods to pattern his habits. If I can use a camera to help me do that instead then what's the problem? Are you guys upset that outfitters can put the resources together to kill big animals every year and you cant? Once again if you're against technology helping out with hunting I suggest you turn in all you're modern day rifles and bows and binos and scopes and swap them for spears, sling shots, muskets, and recurves. Then you can feel really accomplished when you kill the animals the "right way".
I'm a DIY hunter that uses 20 cameras a year to scout. If you think it's unfair that outfitters can devote more time to finding big bucks than you can then get over it and spend more time out there. Outfitters devote their lives, time, and tons of money into finding these deer and elk. Just because you can't spend that time and money out there finding them doesn't make it wrong for the outfitters to do so. This whole argument sounds like a liberals argument: "I don't like you doing something even though it hurts absolutely noone so I'm gonna cry about it and throw a fit until you stop because my way is the right way and if I think it's unfair that you find bigger deer than me then you should stop!"
I pray someone like you doesn't get a high up position in our wildlife management or forest management someday. There are already enough wackos in there.
 
>Are all of you guys serious?
>This is possibly the dumbest
>post I have seen on
>this site. First off why
>have more regulations than we
>already have? Having a camera
>on a water hole hurts
>absolutely noone and doesn't hurt
>the animals or surrounding forest.
>
>If you put a limit on
>trail cams then let's put
>a ban on rangefinders and
>high powered scopes etc. Because
>that new technology isn't the
>"old school way". Give me
>a break.
>You guys should be ashamed. The
>national forest is for everyone's
>use. If you don't think
>using cams is fair then
>don't use them. Go back
>to using muskets and recurves.
>I have no right to
>tell an environmentalist what they
>can or can't do in
>the forest so I expect
>them to do the same.
>If someone is lag bolting
>cameras to trees then I
>can see where people can
>get mad but strapping a
>cam to a tree at
>a pond does no harm.
>Get real and find something
>else to whine about.

If you don't see a problem with walking up to a waterhole and finding 10-15 cameras on it...then the problem is with you yourself. Give me a break!
 
>Az mighty mulies the points you
>bring up pretty much all
>already have laws against them.
>If I recall littering has
>been illegal for a long
>time. If someone can't keep
>their camera strapped to a
>tree or on a post
>and it falls on the
>ground then sure go ahead
>and give them a ticket
>if you feel it's necessary.
>If someone throws batteries on
>the ground give them a
>ticket for littering. If they
>pound a post through a
>water line make them pay
>to fix it etc. Banning
>cams or regulating them in
>any way isn't the answer.
>As for an eye sore
>how are a few cameras
>around D a tank hurting
>anyone's eyes? That's like saying
>when I go to the
>lake and see boats on
>it I'm upset because it's
>not the natural way the
>lake should be and I
>should propose to ban boats
>on all water sources an
>animal might use.
>
>Next point. . You guys act
>like if a big buck
>walks in front of the
>camera a few times all
>you gotta do is send
>out the pic to everyone,
>find someone to pay, and
>go out and shoot the
>buck that is still gonna
>be standing in the same
>spot ready to be shot.
>Once the hunt starts you
>still have to find the
>deer and hunt it! A
>cam is no different than
>if I spent a week
>straight following a deer through
>the woods to pattern his
>habits. If I can use
>a camera to help me
>do that instead then what's
>the problem? Are you guys
>upset that outfitters can put
>the resources together to kill
>big animals every year and
>you cant? Once again if
>you're against technology helping out
>with hunting I suggest you
>turn in all you're modern
>day rifles and bows and
>binos and scopes and swap
>them for spears, sling shots,
>muskets, and recurves. Then you
>can feel really accomplished when
>you kill the animals the
>"right way".

OK...let me ask you this. How many cameras on the same waterhole would be too many? Is 3 or 4 an eyesore? 10-20? At some point it DOES become an eyesore! Think not....give me a break!
 
Ban them and their use will decrease a little bit.
Ban them and decriminalize their destruction..problem solved.

I think they are out of control but dont suport a ban or any more regs. I have one up here in Colo. I got some pictures of my barn cats...I suck.

Last time I was in 23 one AM before light looking down in to Canyon Creek it looked like the forth of July a flash ever 5 seconds..alot of those flashes were "East" of the fence..Trespassers? or do the indians use them also? On that hunt I got my picture taken more times then I did at my wedding!!!
If AZ bans them does that mean the Park Service has to pull all of theirs they have aimed at every camp site in the Grand Canyon??? Found three of them on a 16 day trip...I think they are live feed satilite video...If they are lip readers they know exactly how I feel about NPS big brother survalence...
 
First off please tell me how seeing 10, 20, 50, 5000, 10000 cameras at a water hole hurts you or anyone around? Who says how a water hole is supposed to look? You? If I don't like seeing your truck in the woods can I propose a law to ban all trucks from driving in the woods? If I don't like your fancy rifle and scope can I propose a law to ban you from using it?
You get my point? Noone has the power to decide how many cams can be used, if cams can be used etc. If I wanna strap myself to a tree at a water tank there shouldn't be a law against it.
 
You of all people so far are the only one that has been logical. You don't like them but don't agree on banning them. If people were using cams across the fence on the rez there are laws already in place to punish for trespassing. Noone will ever be able to enforce these ideas any of you have come up with. Who is gonna decide which tank gets to have x amount of cams. Who is gonna decide how many cams a person can use per year? Who is gonna decide who gets to put their cam on a tank of there are already x amount of cams there? Who will decide if my camera was the tenth cam on the tank or if it was my buddy Jonny that got the tenth and final spot for a cam on the tank? Who is gonna decide when we should be able to use cams and what seasons and for how long they can be out in the forest? My point is noone can enforce such things and noone can decide for me how many cams is the right amount of cams I should be able to use. Your idea and proposals are unrealistic and thank the Lord they will never be put into place because some people actually use their head and realize it would only create more problems.
 
I learned a long time ago that it is impossible to rationalize with an irrational person, so I'm not going to try with you. Have a nice day.
 
>Are all of you guys serious?
>This is possibly the dumbest
>post I have seen on
>this site. First off why
>have more regulations than we
>already have? Having a camera
>on a water hole hurts
>absolutely noone and doesn't hurt
>the animals or surrounding forest.
>
>If you put a limit on
>trail cams then let's put
>a ban on rangefinders and
>high powered scopes etc. Because
>that new technology isn't the
>"old school way". Give me
>a break.
>You guys should be ashamed. The
>national forest is for everyone's
>use. If you don't think
>using cams is fair then
>don't use them. Go back
>to using muskets and recurves.
>I have no right to
>tell an environmentalist what they
>can or can't do in
>the forest so I expect
>them to do the same.
>If someone is lag bolting
>cameras to trees then I
>can see where people can
>get mad but strapping a
>cam to a tree at
>a pond does no harm.
>Get real and find something
>else to whine about.

+1 This "propoasl" reminds me of the anti-hunting BS that we as hunters already put up with.

"Go hunt for meat at Walmart."
 
bonecollector777 : So you use 20 Cameras ? Do you like using them ? I'm assuming so . After you are done using them do you take the responsibility of pulling them down when you're done using them for the season ? With only 20 Cameras I assume you do. That in itself is not the problem . The problem is individuals using so many Cameras at any given time that they become complacent and leave there Cameras be after they are done using them resulting to Cameras becoming damaged , busted up etc and becomes a dump ground . I recently spoke to a DWR officer about this . But due to some people/Outfitters taking the use of TrailCams for granted , responsibility's and respect has been lacking . I like everyone one of the Guides/Outfitters out there today and I like all/most people in general . A Ban on Trail Cams would still sustain Ryan Hatch's reputation as one of the most knowledgable, best Mule Deer Guide today and Future just as much as He was when He first initiated His Enterprise about 15 years ago. Same applies to other Outfitters as well . But thats beside the point . The point is is that if some concerns aren't reversed the use of Cameras will be banned .BTW , you cannot compare Binos, Rifle to a Trail Camera . Unless you plan on leaving those assets purposely on the ground in the forest .
 
Has nothing to do with Anti-Hunting .... it's all about addressing a concern/s and reversing the concerns so that "We" for those who enjoy using Trail Cameras can continue to do so for years to come . I'm all for having Trail Cameras and enjoy using Trail Cameras just like many do . I do not want that taken away from me or anyone else. There are regulations on many assets/tools we use as Sportsman for hunting purposes , like the Lead we use , caliber of rifle we use for different hunting etc . But due to the increasing concerns of Trail Cam use , We need to reverse these concerns by coming up with a solution or solutions or We will be seeing a complete Ban on them all together .
 
Since most of the people using cameras are bow hunters, if we have to have another regulation, we should ban bow hunting. Problem solved.

Advocates of leave no trace, should leave no trace such as boot prints or exhaled air in national forests, blm or state lands.

Sorry, but I don't believe government regulation of every aspect of life is the answer. Everybody is all happy when it's the other guy's rights, privileges and desires that get trampled as long as their interest is not affected.

As for cameras, I could give a rat's ass.
 
Way back in May, I posted the message copied at the end of this to anothe online site. It resulted in me getting tarred and feathered. I haven't returned to the site since.


Hunting's Next Perversion
As soon as someone develops one with a small camera, it will be the next "useful" item to lead to the perversion of hunting, much like the ATV and trail camera have already done.

http://www.ksl.com/?...y&s_cid=queue-1





TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-14-14 AT 05:17PM (MST)[p]To surmise, yeah piss on it. Let people do what they want, embrace Americans? ?entitlement?. If someone doesn't like what's going on, that someone can move. Other western states have lots of good country and hunting with a lot less people than Arizona that will last our lifetime. Sad to see the transformation from being a kid to now, but it is and was inevitable. Have at it hunters and Arizonans.

From intricacies within government, to null ambition and entitlement of the American population, through the ?smart? professional men and women working around the country, equals zero hope for humans. Too many people. Near zero logic. Not sustainable.

F? it, live in excess and enjoy what we got while we got it.

Be ready for as much as you can. If things continue as is, we'll probably have it good for our lifetime. Most likely, we'll experience a slow degradation of quality life but definitely sufficient, most people won't even notice. The only way this is going change is if something really changes. Then perhaps one will have only a select few choices to make daily.
 
We have enough dumb A$$ laws,and AZMM just go to Cali you will love it there!Can't trap ,cant hunt lions,can't hunt with lead ammo.Can't use dogs on bear.I like Az don't try to change it just GTFO!!!
 
Regardless I am presenting a Proposal to the AZG&FD Commission whether anybody wants me to or not . This Topic is to address a concern and figuring out a solution because if the concerns are not solved soon , soon We , everybody gets affected by the outcome and that outcome is We will no longer be able to use Trail Cameras .
This is why I am getting everybody's opinion , because everybody's opinion matters . Most people don't back up action with words , will I'm the contrary to that and will be taking action . I'd hate to see a privilege taken away that many enjoy .
 
Quote of the day from bonecollector777, "First off please tell me how seeing 10, 20, 50, 5000, 10000 cameras at a water hole hurts you or anyone around?"

AZMIGHTYMULIES: Thank you for being proactive on this! I do not want to see a ban on cameras but, if this is not addressed, we're headed that way!
 
It never fails, some holier than thou type running other people down because they don't do things your way.

WAaaaaaa I don't like (fill in the blank). it should be banned. We need more laws and regulations to make everyone hunt, fish, camp exactly like I do.

You sound like a bunch of Obama loving libtards.
 
777, Your exactly right. Bed wetters and mouth breathers trying to force their morals on everyone else.
 
What's stopping you from doing that? Or do you just like to tell other people how they should do it?

I think I know the answer.
 
heffe : rather than complaining and ridiculing others opinions why don't you be part of the solution and help come up with one ? Other words , everything you just said across the whole board tell that to the USFS, BLM and NPS officials because they are the ones wanting to Ban Trail Cams due to a lot of problems Cameras have displayed , not us . I don't want to see them Banned . But they sure the heck will be if concerns are not addressed , period . We cannot do nothing to prevent a Ban on Cameras unless we present a solution . It's inevitable . When I do present a proposal I will be adding in the email an attached Link to this page so that the Commission can have a chance to read everyones thoughts and opinions . So everyone feel free and please present a realistic solution . If you want to be part of the problem then don't saying anything at all and if you want to be part of a solution then stop ridiculing peoples opinions and have respect , present a solution , how tough is that to do ?
 
I feel very fortunate to have hunted the strip and Arizona's best elk units long before trail cams and groups of 8-10 "helpers" for every tag holder. A friend and I hunted the strip 20 years ago, and the most exciting part of the hunt was not knowing what we might see. We knew that a giant buck no one had ever seen could emerge from the junipers at any time up there. We hunted our buts off and harvested 2 B&C caliber bucks near the end of the hunt. We did it without cameras and a bunch of helpers like most everyone else back then.

The biggest buck killed that year was shot by an old man on the 9th day. He sat the same water hole every day because there was one really big track on it. Nowadays there would be a dozen or more cameras on that water and half of the guides and their clients would be all over that buck.

I have been on the strip to help a friend 3 times since then (only when he had no one else there to help) each time has been progressively more depressing due to the extreme number of people and cameras everywhere you go. The mystery of what you might find is gone. Now you can see the biggest bucks posted all over the internet. It is still a great place but the quality of the experience is not what it once was. As long as guides and hunters feel like they have to kill the biggest buck/bull in the unit, they will continue to use every means available to accomplish their goal. Now get ready for the invasion of the drones!
 
I don't see a problem with it so therefore no solution needed.

No disrespect to you, but I hope your proposal gets shot down on day one.
 
heffe: asking you these 2 questions . 1 Do you use Trail Cameras ? 2 . Do you enjoy using Trail Cameras ?
By the way . I'm not saying that my suggestion is the best suggestion and I'm not saying that only my suggestion is what the proposal is going to present . Thats why I'm asking everyone to suggest and present a solution here , your opinions . Because regardless there has got to be a solution or it will be inevitable that Trail Cams will be outlawed all together . But regardless I will present a Proposal and will keep everyone here in the loop about the process .
 
>I feel very fortunate to have
>hunted the strip and Arizona's
>best elk units long before
>trail cams and groups of
>8-10 "helpers" for every tag
>holder. A friend and
>I hunted the strip 20
>years ago, and the most
>exciting part of the hunt
>was not knowing what we
>might see. We knew that
>a giant buck no
>one had ever seen could
>emerge from the junipers at
>any time up there. We
>hunted our buts off and
>harvested 2 B&C caliber bucks
>near the end of the
>hunt. We did it
>without cameras and a bunch
>of helpers like most everyone
>else back then.
>
> The biggest buck killed that
>year was shot by an
>old man on the 9th
>day. He sat the same
>water hole every day because
>there was one really big
>track on it. Nowadays
>there would be a dozen
>or more cameras on that
>water and half of the
>guides and their clients would
>be all over that buck.
>
>
>I have been on the strip
>to help a friend 3
>times since then (only when
>he had no one else
>there to help) each time
>has been progressively more depressing
>due to the extreme number
>of people and cameras everywhere
>you go. The mystery of
>what you might find is
>gone. Now you can see
>the biggest bucks posted all
>over the internet. It
>is still a great place
>but the quality of the
>experience is not what it
>once was. As long
>as guides and hunters feel
>like they have to kill
>the biggest buck/bull in the
>unit, they will continue to
>use every means available to
>accomplish their goal. Now get
>ready for the invasion of
>the drones!


This post nails it.

IMO, the quality of a hunting experience degrades every year. Technology plays a role but it's not the only factor. To me, hunting is a competition between me and my quarry. Lately, it seem it's a competition between hunters.
 
>I feel very fortunate to have
>hunted the strip and Arizona's
>best elk units long before
>trail cams and groups of
>8-10 "helpers" for every tag
>holder. A friend and
>I hunted the strip 20
>years ago, and the most
>exciting part of the hunt
>was not knowing what we
>might see. We knew that
>a giant buck no
>one had ever seen could
>emerge from the junipers at
>any time up there. We
>hunted our buts off and
>harvested 2 B&C caliber bucks
>near the end of the
>hunt. We did it
>without cameras and a bunch
>of helpers like most everyone
>else back then.
>
> The biggest buck killed that
>year was shot by an
>old man on the 9th
>day. He sat the same
>water hole every day because
>there was one really big
>track on it. Nowadays
>there would be a dozen
>or more cameras on that
>water and half of the
>guides and their clients would
>be all over that buck.
>
>
>I have been on the strip
>to help a friend 3
>times since then (only when
>he had no one else
>there to help) each time
>has been progressively more depressing
>due to the extreme number
>of people and cameras everywhere
>you go. The mystery of
>what you might find is
>gone. Now you can see
>the biggest bucks posted all
>over the internet. It
>is still a great place
>but the quality of the
>experience is not what it
>once was. As long
>as guides and hunters feel
>like they have to kill
>the biggest buck/bull in the
>unit, they will continue to
>use every means available to
>accomplish their goal. Now get
>ready for the invasion of
>the drones!


Absolutely hit the nail on the head. Great post!
 
I was fortunate enough to join my nephew on his Strip hunt last year. The Strip was a magical place. Unfortunately we were nearly run over daily by guides racing down the roads. Big bad trucks with their outfitter stickers advertising their. It's as if they felt they owned the Strip and had exclusive rights. Came to one tank with no less than 15 cameras on it! Thankfully I didn't have a tag. Really soured my experience. Wouldn't sadden me if trail cams were banned.
 
I drew a premium elk tag this year and just got back from a scouting trip. Every waterhole we found and even those that were a long hike in, had trail cameras on it. However, most of the cams were either left there last year or before that. The other thing that shocked me was the number of empty security boxes that had been screwed into the trees. No trail cams, just empty metal boxes.

We did put up trail cams at a few of the off trail springs, but even though I use trail cams occasionally I'd support a ban 100%.

Here's AZ's unit 9 in 2009. Probably way worse by now.

3669az_2009_trail_cameras.jpg
 
>I feel very fortunate to have
>hunted the strip and Arizona's
>best elk units long before
>trail cams and groups of
>8-10 "helpers" for every tag
>holder. A friend and
>I hunted the strip 20
>years ago, and the most
>exciting part of the hunt
>was not knowing what we
>might see. We knew that
>a giant buck no
>one had ever seen could
>emerge from the junipers at
>any time up there. We
>hunted our buts off and
>harvested 2 B&C caliber bucks
>near the end of the
>hunt. We did it
>without cameras and a bunch
>of helpers like most everyone
>else back then.
>
> The biggest buck killed that
>year was shot by an
>old man on the 9th
>day. He sat the same
>water hole every day because
>there was one really big
>track on it. Nowadays
>there would be a dozen
>or more cameras on that
>water and half of the
>guides and their clients would
>be all over that buck.
>
>
>I have been on the strip
>to help a friend 3
>times since then (only when
>he had no one else
>there to help) each time
>has been progressively more depressing
>due to the extreme number
>of people and cameras everywhere
>you go. The mystery of
>what you might find is
>gone. Now you can see
>the biggest bucks posted all
>over the internet. It
>is still a great place
>but the quality of the
>experience is not what it
>once was. As long
>as guides and hunters feel
>like they have to kill
>the biggest buck/bull in the
>unit, they will continue to
>use every means available to
>accomplish their goal. Now get
>ready for the invasion of
>the drones!


^^^Now here's someone that gets it!^^^
 
Mike - One big flaw with your plan. You want to go to the AZGFD with a proposal to stem regulation on national forest and BLM lands. You think the feds care about less restrictive state regulations on "their" lands? Kinda like travel management.
 
Hate them, would not care if they were banned and get tired of seeing them all over when hiking and hunting. I am not a big fan of new laws or regulations but this one would have my full support.
 
sagebrush: excellent point and I agree 100% . But rather than doing nothing, I'd rather try to do something to prevent a Ban . If people could take responsibility and be sure to always check your cameras , clean up after themselves , and if some of these concerns were to be addressed, I believe the use of Trail Cams can remain . I currently work for the BLM as a Wildland Fire Fighter . But have been getting my Degree in Wildlife Biology and hope that I can get a position with the AZG&F or BLM as a Wildlife Biologist.
These people whom have been complaining, they are people to with feelings and concerns and concerns that are understandable . All it takes is talking to people , these people with concerns . The most part , they also know We as Sportsman have compassion for Wildlife . So as a whole WE , everybody , Sportsman , Environmentalists need to work together . Thats exactly what Our people in Our world lacks nowadays is communication . Me , I'm a people person , enjoy chatting with all walks of like, especially with those people that have been around for along time and have seen the transitions of Our Society and world . Therefore I'm not afraid to confront these concerns rather than neglect them and thought it be generous at the least to mention it here .
 
I also think they are getting a bit out of control and that the current state of trailcam use needs to change. A trailcam season might help in conjunction with a no trailcams used within 1/4 mile of water rule. I feel limiting the # of trailcams a person could have out at a given time would be too complicated to be good solution. Although I like using trail cams I feel the best solution for everybody and not just us hunters is probably going to be a complete ban of trail cam use on public lands.
 
The other factor we need to think about as well is that there are many people whom work for many areas of Federal Agencies who use Trail Cams , leaving them unattended in Our Forests/Federal Public Lands . So for them to pose a threat on an all together Ban of Trail Cams would be hypocritical in there behalf . Though as you all know as much as I do they (Federal/State) agencies will do what they want . What the likely outcome of this will be is one of two things I believe : 1 a Ban of Trail Cams period, or 2: some tightened regulations of some sort or another .
Thats what I foresee is coming , and I think most would agree .
 
Lets see before Clinton made the strip Babbit's park,you could hunt lions south of dellenbaugh with dogs!!!You could drive to Pine tank!The road was passable to Kelly tank,not now the feds are slowly making all of it foot only!!!Ban trail cams,how about rangefinders,or binos over 8 power,rifles that shoot over 2 hundred yards.Where does it stop once it starts!!!!!!Lots of the roads in 9,7,8,6 have been closed and Azg&f have no input on it?The damn feds will do whatever they want till someone takes it back!!!!!!!
 
IMO I think trail cam use will go down like this.

1.) Doing nothing and leaving trail cam use the way it is, I think will happen for a few more years.

2.) Banning trail cam use 1/4 mile from any water source, I think this will be the first law initiated against trail cam use.

3.) Banning trail cams altogether will probably happen, but I think their use will be limited first in someway. I think anybody who works with Federal Agencies should follow the same rules as everybody else.
 
Interesting discussion - here's my 2 cents:
300 cameras X $150/camera = $45,000. Really?? Who has this sort of money? No wonder outfitted hunts are so expensive. We hunters have allowed ourselves to be seduced by technology (and not just trailcams). This isn't much different from baiting (which is legal in some states, but has contributed to some well-deserved criticism of hunters by anti-hunters). The hunt, the seeking, the uncertainty, the challenge - these are at the heart of an ethical fair chase hunt ? those aspects seem diminished by unlimited/unconstrained use of trailcams.

Use of trail cameras during hunting seasons is not allowed in Montana, per Montana hunting regulations: ?Motion-Tracking Devices and/or Camera Devices - It is illegal for a person to possess or use in the field any electronic or camera device whose purpose is to scout the location of game animals or relay the information on a game animal?s location or movement during any Commission-adopted hunting season.?

I'm not a fan of trail cams; never used one, but I've seen plenty and I believe their use has lessened my hunting experience and they are an unneeded intrusion into crucial wildlife habitats. There?s a legitimate place for them for monitoring, scientific & research purposes. I think their unlimited use leads to harassment and undue disturbance that prevents wildlife from using water sources ? not because of the cameras themselves, but the human activity associated with placement and maintenance of those cameras. I offer some suggestions that could help avoid a total ban: (1) No trailcam use during any open big game hunting season; (2) no placement of trailcams within quarter mile of a water source; (3) Name and address of trailcam owner must be on the camera; (4) trailcams removed when not in use.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-14 AT 09:15PM (MST)[p]AZmm, since you're a scholar, sooner than later a professional, how about do some research and be professional about it? Attaching a link to an internet forum with comments from joe blow, joe schmoe, jeffe, and other is not very professional.

Research laws, academia research articles/journals, contact ACLU, utilize statistics, poll a population, consult state and federal agencies, create a case, et cetera. Write and present a formal proposal. Go ahead, ?take action?, and give it a solid effort.

Caution though, dealing the government is futile. Government is run by reason and without logic. Why??? Know that most of American population does not understand logic, therefore cannot apply nor distinguish logic from reason, vice versa. Sometimes this is used to one?s advantage when dealing with people, an entity, or institution, but nonetheless generally very substandard. State agencies typically are easier to deal with. Good luck.

Well maybe not, game cameras are litter? piss on personal surveillance systems on public land, especially for hunting game? oh wait, everyone is entitled right? Everyone has earned that entitlement right? Or was it inherited? Or was it given? or taken? don't know. One thing, cameras are not mutually respectful.

F? it, give it a try and fight for your ?right?.

Some recent history of a futile government-public exchange was the travel management plan. A summation of the exchange? what ended up was the Forest Service or whoever had the hammer already had a decision made before they started public meetings. The public meetings were a fa?ade for their ?due diligence?. The worst part of the whole ordeal was the road maps they started with of the forest were wrong! Not just by a little, quite apparent the people effectively did not know the forest they manage. So discouraging to see tax dollars paying for these people wages who are just ignorant, from the many little government worker bees to whoever makes the decisions. Wow!

Many public meetings had good attendance to, i.e. people cared. Not just hunters but grass roots (e.g. re creationists, grandparents, parents, et cetera).

The Forest Service assumed their maps that have been tallied and compiled over the years were right. One would think they would have verified that they had an up-to-date map. Perhaps use satellite images and guys on 4-wheelers buzzing with gps?s get an accurate map of the forest. I am sure they had budget for that or were they just too busy and made an educated assumption?

They believed they had a quality map. Note, belief is not truth.

They showed roads where there were no longer roads (e.g. over grown and ?disappeared? with time) and many roads that have been created over the last ~20 years were not on the map. They ended up closing random roads, many make no sense, creating some roads, and even closing some that have been around for a hundred years before autos. In addition to meeting their quota of closed roads, they implemented more rules, to pathetic to mention.

Let it be known, less roads are great, but when little reason and zero logic are utilized it undermines all intent. The entire experience was so disappointing and now people are prompted of it continuously while in the forest. Very painful to see America at work.

In time a good bet is cameras get banned, just like flying for game.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-14
>AT 09:15?PM (MST)
>
>AZmm, since you're a scholar, sooner
>than later a professional, how
>about do some research and
>be professional about it? Attaching
>a link to an internet
>forum with comments from joe
>blow, joe schmoe, jeffe, and
>other is not very professional.
>
>
>Research laws, academia research articles/journals, contact
>ACLU, utilize statistics, poll a
>population, consult state and federal
>agencies, create a case, et
>cetera. Write and present a
>formal proposal. Go ahead, ?take
>action?, and give it a
>solid effort.
>

The reason he has no facts and hasn't looked up scholarly articles is because they don't exist. This is simply a college kid hoping to work for azgfd someday trying to think of a way to get noticed so he can put on his resume he submitted a proposal and seem as if he knew what he was doing. Craving attention of the department, doing anything he can to be noticed. He has no facts because it all comes down to the fact it's simply a thing he doesn't like and a few others don't like so they wanna cry about it and throw a bitchfit so it gets banned.. you haven't provided one piece of solid evidence to support banning them other than you don't like them. In all my life I have never seen anyone's camera broken on the ground nor seen batteries or litter on the ground. Noone that has money put into cameras is gonna leave them out in the forest to get destroyed. This will never get support of the azgfd and even if it's talked about it will be shot down by the public quicker than it took you to write up your worthless proposal. Better start thinking of more realistic things to whine about and try to get attention from because after the azgfd sees this proposal they are gonna realize you're not cut out to have anything to do with managing wildlife or enforcing laws.
 
arizona - amen to little reason and zero logic, that's the government way, especially federal government. Seen it too many times.

I just had an epiphany. AZmightymulies and javihammer should do a joint proposal to G&F. They could come up with a way to tie the number of cameras allowed to the number of bonus points, or maybe use bonus points in exchange for placing cameras. I'm sure there must be a way to get a three page regulation out of that combination somehow.
 
bonecollector777 : Damn , boy do you got me all figured out don't ya ? So you think . lmao . What have I mentioned in some of the other previous comments ? Oh ya, you're likely to damn ignorant to even of have bothered to read those comments huh ? Well I guess I'll say it again, AZG&FD refuses to enforce the Laws that the USFS, BLM, and USGS have presented , not until more factual evidence presents itself . And what are some personnel doing within these Agencies ? Exactly that , gather more evidence to present there concerns . I have literally spoken with 25-30 different people over this summer while School break started to broaden my horizon's of study , people from Northern Arizona , ST George Ut, Richfield Ut , and Logan Ut .
Maybe the big problem is just I'm at least generous enough to bring this to everyones attention giving everyone a heads up ? Maybe I won't be so generous next time .
But those who ridicule me here , keep it up , it don't bother me one bit . It's just displays real true colors . Right from the get go, I said quote " I respect everyones opinion on this matter and I hope everyone does present there opinion". Thats exactly what I have been doing , correct ? Do you see me ridiculing anyone ? Hell no, thats not my nature .
 
Deserthorn and a few similar posts have perfectly stated the issue. The excessive use of trail cameras has degraded the entire hunting experience in some parts of the country.

I am about as anti-government regulation as they come. But would fully support a total ban on trail cameras on public land. It has worked in Montana. It would work in Utah and Arizona.

And not all regulations are bad. Of course we already have hunting seasons, bag limits, weapon restrictions, etc. Few complain about these "regulations". Don't try to overly complicate the hunting regulations with limits on location, number, etc. Just ban them outright for hunting on public land. (What you do on private land is an entirely different issue.) Of course researchers can get special permits, just like they get occasional exemptions to dart / trap animals for legitimate research. Not even the government could afford the proliferation of trail cameras presently in the woods.

At the very least, the comment about 1 trail camera per tag holder would be acceptable. Sort of like one bear bait per hunter in WY, or other states. Even outfitters in WY essentially have to follow this rule. No setting up ten baits for each client. Why allow 10 (or more) trail cameras?

Put the hunt back in hunting. Ban the use of trail cameras on public land. I think many on this board would be surprised at the overwhelming support such a proposal would receive from HUNTERS. It is a small subset of hunters (and guides) who are threatening to cheapen the hunting experience for all by the excessive use of trail cameras.

Bill
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-16-14 AT 11:16AM (MST)[p]I have seen way too many people like you. Trying to be noticed by some dumb ass proposal that doesn't need to ever be brought up because it has already been brought up and it doesn't go anywhere! I read every one of your dumb comments and NONE of them are proof or evidence against cameras. They are simply opinions. Azgfd refuses to enforce these so called laws and rules you talk about because they think proposals like this are just as dumb as I do. I don't hardly ever Comment on this site but when I see a no name kid thinking he is gonna try and change the world and try and limit how many cameras I can use I ridicule him. Because he has no right to try and tell me when and where I can put a camera. And you know azgfd already agrees with me because they don't give a crap about some stupid rule created by idiots like you. Believe me there are a lot more people on my side of this argument than yours. You're fighting a losing battle. This will be my last comment on this until you bring some evidence of so called destroyed cameras or evidence that these other agencies are receiving complaints about all these so called problems you claim cameras cause or show me that your proposal got further than the email you send to azgfd. I'm also one year away from my biology degree at ASU. Maybe I'll make it my goal to get into wildlife management to combat complete knuckleheads like yourself.

If azgfd isn't enforcing these laws right now why are you trying to get then to enforce them? If they refuse to enforce it it doesn't matter what law is made because it will never be enforced. And if higher up government officials ban them do you think that's gonna stop me and everyone else from still using as many of them as I want?
 
BC777: I did this elsewhere in this thread...but here is a quote you made earlier. Your quote...word for word! "First off please tell me how seeing 10, 20, 50, 5000, 10000 cameras at a water hole hurts you or anyone around?"

You may be at ASU, but with UNEDUCATED and STUPID comments like that, PLEASE pick another major...the last thing we need is a knucklehead like you as a biologist for ANYTHING. Do you really think you have ANY credibility while throwing a comment like that out there? REALLY! I'm serious....REALLY!!!!
 
Deerdon: I agree with ya 100% ... and I'm done trying to explain my objectives to him and obviously He has no clue who I am ... me a Kid ??? lmao . I sure wish that was true . BTW , I have built a great relationship over the years with the AZG&FD . For 4 years I gathered some research on the Mountain lion's that inhabit the AZ Strip . For almost 2 years I emailed and talked with the Director, Commission and Managers . I sent in 9 Emails with tons of pics and presented my own research and theories as to why the populations of the Mountain Lion on the AZ STrip , which helped result to the Non Resident Price drop for Mountain lion permits , with the help of a couple other people 1 person I know personally . To my understanding , I do believe they have recently started collaring some Cats on the AZ Strip now as well, at least thats what was mentioned to me . Anyways take this whole thread topic for what it's worth to ya .
 
I never used one and never will. Sure all the guides are going to ##### and insult people but they will eventually lose and they did it to thjemselves. If we have a school that is public property is it OK for you to hide a camera in the little girls bathroom so you can get shots of them taking a leak? Same crap on public land where you can't take a ##### without looking up at a trail cam. They will go the way of the Dodo bird soon and guides will go the same way if they don't get a little smarter. Hunters are less than 5% of the population so you think we are going to be able to abuse the forests with cameras for long? Dumber than dirt.
 
I skimmed over this and GLENINAZ you sound like a Californian. Is a Deer a person? NO is a Elk a person? NO is a Moose a person? No well you get the point these are animals. Stop talking like a crazy or Ill buy you a bus ticket to the land of nut, fruits, and flakes! Also on a side note I dislike trail cams unless they are on my properties entrance points to see if anyone is coming onto the land.

?If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.? John Adams
 
WTF are you talking about. People don't like other people spying on them. It is called freedom and I guess you aren't old enough to remember when we had it. I don't like the gubmint at all and I hate all the new laws and restrictions. My point is if you keep putting cameras up everywhere in the wild people that don't hunt will give you a lesson in democracy.
 
So, a couple Weeks ago I had sent in a Proposal to the AZG&FD Commission which was subsequently forwarded over to the Article 3 Team regarding the Regulation utilizing Trail Cameras . I also have attached to the proposal a Link to this Thread so that members of the AZG&FD Article 3 Team can see and get others opinions in this matter . Here is a email I received in return .
Mike,

Thanks for your proposal. I also received it as forwarded from Commission Chairman Mansell. Elements regulating the use of hunting apparatus and accessories such as trail cameras are contained in Commission Article 3, which the Article 3 Team will begin to examine alternatives and changes next fiscal year. The Department makes proposals for changes to the Commission, but the Commission has final say on those changes. I am forwarding your proposal to the Article 3 Team and it will be considered. Thank you for your input and your interest in wildlife conservation.

Best, Jim

After reading through the returned Email I called and spoke to the Director and one New Proposal that has been on the Books already was Trail Camera Regulations . So with this added Proposal that I have presented has provided even more insight to the Commission and Article 3 Team due to everyones thoughts and opinions that have been contributed to the Thread here on Monster Muleys . So I do want to thank everyone here that have contributed your opinions here and I will be keeping everyone up to speed on this matter .
 
>>I feel very fortunate to have
>>hunted the strip and Arizona's
>>best elk units long before
>>trail cams and groups of
>>8-10 "helpers" for every tag
>>holder. A friend and
>>I hunted the strip 20
>>years ago, and the most
>>exciting part of the hunt
>>was not knowing what we
>>might see. We knew that
>>a giant buck no
>>one had ever seen could
>>emerge from the junipers at
>>any time up there. We
>>hunted our buts off and
>>harvested 2 B&C caliber bucks
>>near the end of the
>>hunt. We did it
>>without cameras and a bunch
>>of helpers like most everyone
>>else back then.
>>
>> The biggest buck killed that
>>year was shot by an
>>old man on the 9th
>>day. He sat the same
>>water hole every day because
>>there was one really big
>>track on it. Nowadays
>>there would be a dozen
>>or more cameras on that
>>water and half of the
>>guides and their clients would
>>be all over that buck.
>>
>>
>>I have been on the strip
>>to help a friend 3
>>times since then (only when
>>he had no one else
>>there to help) each time
>>has been progressively more depressing
>>due to the extreme number
>>of people and cameras everywhere
>>you go. The mystery of
>>what you might find is
>>gone. Now you can see
>>the biggest bucks posted all
>>over the internet. It
>>is still a great place
>>but the quality of the
>>experience is not what it
>>once was. As long
>>as guides and hunters feel
>>like they have to kill
>>the biggest buck/bull in the
>>unit, they will continue to
>>use every means available to
>>accomplish their goal. Now get
>>ready for the invasion of
>>the drones!
>
>
>^^^Now here's someone that gets it!^^^
>
Amen!
 
Hi Mike,
Hope all is well with you.
I think all of us passionate Muley fanatics, Outfitters included would for the most part support your ideas on this topic.
I think your on the right track here.
 
I agree 100% STOP REGULATING REGULATIONS. I'm tired of whiny people that seem to think the government should regulate every aspect of our life. If you dont like um dont us um but DO NOT TELL ME THAT I CANT!!!!!!
TOO MUCH REGULATION AS IT IS.
 
AZ mighty muley, I have an antelope tag in 13b and wondered if you had any tips on big bucks and if the roads get tough with rain
Thanks ORBEAV
 
ORBEAV : are the roads tough when it rains ? tough is an understatement . lol . my Truck is in the shop as we speak with a busted CV Axle due to the rutted muddy roads . Hurricane cliffs area holds the most Antelope area called Main Street Valley . Just focus there and should pay off in harvesting a great Buck !! Good luck with your hunt . ps , feel free to pm me with any further questions .
 
Is there private ground that I need to ask before hunting in Main St. Easy to glass in that unit or heavy juniper?
Thanks SO much for your help
Curt
 

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